Praying

Oxajil said:
I've been thinking about this a little, and I think that praying also seems ''human'' to me. Because if you look at the core, it comes from caring about another. Just like wanting to help others, or giving others presents, giving others compliments, helping with the luggage, etc. And these things usually don't go by asking, as Gawan said you can notice from the behavior.
And of course, these all could be polluted by programs, ego etc. but if you look at the core or origin, I think it comes from the heart/conscience. One just needs to think about how one could make their praying, or whatever they do, to be more pure and less polluted. For example, will you be obsessed with your praying (and then become disappointed), or will you pray with an open mind? Will you think about the person's interests before you buy a present, or just buy one that you like and want that s/he'll like as well? etc.

I remember once, my parents were leaving to go on a holiday, me being a quite sensitive person started to cry a bit just after they waved goodbye looking at me when I was waving back, out of the window. I realized that it's okay to cry, it's normal. The thought that maybe it could be the last time seeing them, made me really sad. I started to pray to God and asked him to give them a safe travel and return, and to not let evil get close to them.
This came from me missing them, me caring about them, from my conscience. I didn't want to miss them and I didn't want them to get hurt.
Praying (for each other) is pretty normal in my family, by the way. Even though, we don't always say when we do.

This is what I naturally do, it is natural to me. Of course I realize that this praying might not do anything, but if it does and on some kind of level, some certain ''intersection'' takes place, between what I want, what they want, what my lesson is, what their lesson is, without violating any free will (or however the process might go), which might mean that my prayer might have an effect, and will actually be beneficial or neutral to their lessons, then why should I not? The C's have said: "If you continue to pray, there is no chance of your lessons being interrupted or deferred." And I think my prayers are somewhere safe, when they go to 6th density. And to know that your prayers are in the hands of Jesus (if you pray to him), it's a comforting thought too you know.

Exactly.

There is a big difference between praying that something that I think is good happens to someone else - regardless of what they really want or need and for my own selfish reasons - than praying for their well-being in the knowledge that they have their own lessons and free-will that I wish to respect and that DCM knows better what those are.

Yes, I think there may be some issue for you to solve, Oxajil, regarding your worries and fears that something bad will happen to the people you care about (childhood or past live trauma?). But I totally agree that doesn't mean that your care is any less genuine, nor that you should stop praying for them if that comes natural to you and gives you comfort.

Aeneas said:
I now take it that Windmill Knight used the word interfere as 3) : to enter into or take a part in the concerns of others

I did not know when I wrote the post, this meaning of the word interfere, but only meaning 1), 2) and 4).

My bad. I should have used the word 'intervene'.

Aeneas said:
I am getting the understanding from what has been said that it is pointless to ask beforehand and that it does not have anything to do with the free will of others. It still does not sit quite right with me, so I will be with that for a while.

When I am concerned for others I sometimes find it difficult to put into words a prayer for them because of what we have been discussing above. Sometimes I conclude that I'll simply trust the Universe and leave it at that. Others I do pray bearing in mind that I don't necessarily know what is best for them. Whether it is pointless or not, I don't know, but sometimes you just need to express your concerns to the Universe.

I think that one key for any prayer, whether for others or for ourselves, is to state it as openly as possible. For example, 'take care of them', or 'help me see clearly' (as in POTS). If and how those things are going to happen is up to DCM. Another key is to pray in an attitude of asking, as opposed to demanding or manipulating, as I said before. That way no free-will is violated and it is done without expectations.
 
Aeneas said:
I am getting the understanding from what has been said that it is pointless to ask beforehand and that it does not have anything to do with the free will of others. It still does not sit quite right with me, so I will be with that for a while.

Yes, I will continue to ask, as I have not found reason not to.

I think that's totally fine and surely not pointless. I think you should do what sits right with you, as I do the same.
I'm kind of used to asking whatever I want from DCM. I saw DCM as some kind of parent.
When I was young I used to ask Her where my lost comb is (and then finding it right after, at a spot I already looked!), I have asked for a pet (days later a bird came fly in, and we holded that one as a pet), I asked for a good friend I can share things with (and I met one via the internets soon after) and so on... but as I grew up, I realized that this was unfair of me, that certain things I don't need, and that I can get those things myself, because I'm grown now. I learned to be more independent, and to take more responsibility.

But I never had the idea that there was something I could not ask for, and I know that if my wishes were not ''right'', they wouldn't happen either. And I always accepted that. I just know, that I can ask and that it is okay to ask. That's the impression I received from DCM all these years.

And now I have the feeling I can pay Her back you know, by helping people with EE and with Working on myself etc.

So my experiences and lessons throughout my life formed the thoughts I have now about praying. That's why I feel comfortable with praying in an open way, because somehow that seems just fine to me. You have had different experiences and different lessons, so you feel more comfortable with asking permission, and in a way, I don't think that either way is pointless.
And who knows how our thoughts will be as we continue to grow?
 
Oxajil said:
I've been thinking about this a little, and I think that praying also seems ''human'' to me. Because if you look at the core, it comes from caring about another. Just like wanting to help others, or giving others presents, giving others compliments, helping with the luggage, etc. And these things usually don't go by asking, as Gawan said you can notice from the behavior.
And of course, these all could be polluted by programs, ego etc. but if you look at the core or origin, I think it comes from the heart/conscience. One just needs to think about how one could make their praying, or whatever they do, to be more pure and less polluted. For example, will you be obsessed with your praying (and then become disappointed), or will you pray with an open mind? Will you think about the person's interests before you buy a present, or just buy one that you like and want that s/he'll like as well? etc.

FWIW, there comes a topic to my mind, which may goes in similar direction like this one: when someone is asking not with words.

Interfering with someone's Free Will to keep them from harm
 
I used to spend a good amount of time trying to formulate a prayer that would be asking my potential STO higher self to help me fulfill its karmic lesson profile through me here, etc, etc, etc. :D Now, one night after much thought I came to the realization that my grand prayer that I had worked a long time on writing was no good, and this was after thinking much about what I had read in this quote from SHOTW (accents mine):

"Like attracts like." When a candidate has developed virtue and integrity acceptable to the adepts, they will appear to him and reveal those parts of the secret processes which cannot be discovered without such help. Those who cannot progress to a certain point with their own intelligence are not qualified to be entrusted with the secrets which can subject to their will the elemental forces of Nature.}

So basically I realized that I was still not asking since it was UP TO ME here, in this 3D STS realm to use my own intelligence and ability to become qualified to receive such help. I was putting the carriage before the horses AND the driver without even realizing it!

So anyways I really like the prayer of the soul. So I've easily memorized it and I usually repeat it once or twice before I go to bed. :)

Edit: :-[ :-[ :-[ Hehe...I meant to say "ahead" and not "before" the "horses AND the driver without even realizing it!". Oh boy...too many errors today.
 
Sorry I do not have more to contribute to this interesting topic for now.

But regarding praying for another person:

I will give a couple of examples of how I found myself praying in last few years as this material has opened up to me.

- For example, a family I love suddenly started facing some difficult trials. I found myself praying that if possible, they could learn whatever lessons they seem to need to learn ( through these trials ) in the least stressful manner as possible. Somehow I had that thought that the lessons were important, but maybe there could be some wriggle room to reduce the depth and length of the suffering part - even while admitting sometimes there might be lessons that require quite a bit of suffering, and so I would have to be accepting of the wisdom of the universe to fulfill their lesson plan even that way!

- In another case, when another family faced a life threatening situation with their child, I did pray that things would go well and they would not have to suffer the loss of their child: yet I, at the same time, trying to appreciate the wisdom of the universe to act differently if that was appropriate, I also prayed that strength would be given to the family to handle the outcome should it not go the way we all wanted it to.

That last reminds me of the line, "thy will be done on earth as it is heaven" of the Lord's prayer.

Well, especially after now reading this thread, and the parts in the EE thread related to this, I am thinking that if I know the universe will allow the matters to unfold in the most appropriate matter regardless if I pray or not, then I suppose praying is another place of self-observation. What and how I pray for another reveals something about me and my machine.
 
This has been a very interesting discussion! I just want to add a few thoughts. I agree that there's a difference between praying and "sending love and light". It seems to me that "sending love and light" is really just for oneself. It's not FOR the other person. It's not inspired by care for them, but by egotism: thinking that others should be the way YOU are, and trying to convert them using some magical means. It's saying the universe is flawed and I'm gonna fix it. It's metaphysical imperialism! Of course, like many religious people seeking to convert others who are different, it's couched in altruistic terms, but in reality, it ain't. So some "prayers" can fall into this as well, e.g. praying for God to convert all the heathens.

But I think prayer, as Oxajil and WK are describing it, comes from somewhere else. The L&L crusaders don't really care about other people, they just want them to conform to a certain image because their "otherness" makes them uncomfortable (it hints at the subjective, incomplete, inadequacy of their beliefs, which means it's gotta go). But what about when you do care for someone? What if you want what's best for them? This is the spot where there's some disagreement and confusion here, I think. The road to hell, and all that. A father can "want what's best" for his children, and pray that they become successful doctors, but really he's just projecting his own desires on his children. On the other hand, he can truly "want what's best" for his children, and pray that they lead lives that are fulfilling, in open terms. Maybe that means they become starving musicians. He can't know the ways in which their "success" will manifest, but I don't see anything wrong with him praying such a prayer, even without asking them.

If you love a person and want what's best for them (to nurture the growth of their soul, in Needleman's terms), I don't see any problem in praying for them, as long as it's open. Of course, that means that they may make bad choices, bad things may happen to them, and it can hurt to see this in a person we love, but as long as we're objective - understanding that all is lessons - but I think prayers inspired by love and concern may have nonlinear effects. Maybe we establish higher connections that way, making us stronger and better able to see the path that is right for us?
 
I've been thinking quite a bit about this discussion over the last couple of days. I made a mistake by not distinguishing between sending healing directly to another person without their permission and praying to the DCM for another person. The more I thought about this issue, the more I changed my ideas about it. Oxajil, I think you are correct to say that the DCM has a wisdom and oversight of its own, and so can decide for itself whether our prayer for the other is to be acted on or not. In fact a carefully considered prayer for another may be just the thing they need at that time.

Also, Oxajil, I was expecting you to question your ideas, but I was not questioning my own ideas about prayer. Questioning myself led me to remember two contrasting incidents from my life. Eleven or twelve years ago, before I found Laura's work, I was a member of a newage-type group on Yahoo. I got really sick with gastric flu, and could find no remedy. I posted to the group about it, and they decided to pray for me. The result was that I had a strong impulse to visit a Chinese clinic. I had acupuncture and Chinese herbal pills, and recovered. I don't know how they prayed, or even whether their prayer was open, but something beneficial happened!

The other experience at another time involved my mother sending healing directly to me. Even though I thought there would be no problem – she's my mother after all, so what harm could ensue? – I felt worse, which was rather surprising to me.

So you can see that prayer had a beneficial effect for me, while receiving healing directly did not. Considering this I realised that there is a world of difference between sending direct healing to a person, even with their permission, and prayer to the DCM. In sending direct healing or love and light, all the unconscious motivations and programs can enter the picture. With prayer to the DCM we can, as you so rightly say Oxajil, ask for a beneficial outcome for the person without anticipation of any result.

I'm reminded of something Gurdjieff once said, although I can't find the exact quote. It was something like: only feeling for others is real. And as Windmill Knight says: 'sometimes you just need to express your concerns to the Universe'. In fact I do this but I never thought of it as praying. :/ What I do when I am concerned about someone is to acknowledge to myself that I am concerned or worried about the person, then I make a request from my heart to the universe/DCM asking that the person be taken care of. I acknowledge that I cannot know what their lessons are and that their lessons might involve things happening to them that I don't like, and then I place my trust in the DCM that things will work out for the best for all concerned.

I'm reminded also of the Native American idea that one should do one good deed every day, but no-one should know about it. Anonymous prayer certainly fits the bill.
 
Endymion said:
I'm reminded of something Gurdjieff once said, although I can't find the exact quote. It was something like: only feeling for others is real. And as Windmill Knight says: 'sometimes you just need to express your concerns to the Universe'. In fact I do this but I never thought of it as praying. :/ What I do when I am concerned about someone is to acknowledge to myself that I am concerned or worried about the person, then I make a request from my heart to the universe/DCM asking that the person be taken care of. I acknowledge that I cannot know what their lessons are and that their lessons might involve things happening to them that I don't like, and then I place my trust in the DCM that things will work out for the best for all concerned.

I was thinking about this G quote when writing me other reply, too, just didn't figure out a way to fit it in there. Thanks for bringing it up. I think that's the crux of the matter here. If we're praying for another just because we feel uncomfortable for ourselves (our sacred cows are agitated, we think the other person is "wrong" and needs changing, we want something for ourselves), I think that's on a different level than praying because we're worried for someone else, scared for someone else, or concerned for someone else. I'm reminded of what Dabrowski wrote about the levels of fear:

Fear, Dread and Anxiety

Level I

Fear arises as a primitive reaction before sudden, threatening phenomena such as the forces of nature, catastrophes, physical pain, sudden death, or the authority of
power. This type of reaction shows that reflection is totally absent, or is very weak. The individual is either immobilized by his fear through a paralyzing concern with his survival, or acts only to protect himself, regardless if it means harm to others.

Level II

Fears and anxieties arise from lack of directive dynamisms. Fears are not defined but take the form of fears of closed or open spaces, or are occasioned by cyclicity of moods, feelings of helplessness, loneliness, or an indeterminate fear of death (ambivalences). Fluctuation of feelings of inferiority and superiority, or feelings of shame before others give rise to anxiety. We observe coexistence and cooperation of fear and depression. The environment has strong influence as a source and shaper of anxiety (second factor). In a different way, the presence of others may induce weak manifestation of altruistic behavior. Self-control and self-awareness are totally absent or weak. There may be alternation of fear and short-lived courage (ambitendency). With positive progress of unilevel disintegration one can observe an increase in the role of psychological factors, such as beginnings of reflection, even precursor forms of subject-object in oneself, attempts at control of fears and anxieties, also some growth of sensitivity to fears experienced by others.

Level III

Beginnings of alterocentric and altruistic anxieties. Appearance of existential fears and of fear of death. In reflection on their origins and nature we observe beginnings of control of fears of lower levels and of transforming them into fears of higher level (hierarchization). Unmotivated fears and apprehensions also appear but combined with reflection.

Astonishment works through surprise as to the origin of fear and upon reflection, surprise that one should be afraid, and at other times, clear realization that one ought to be afraid.

Disquietude is manifested as a concern about the level of states of fear, for instance, by suddenly realizing that one may fear more the loss of one’s health than of a loved person. Such disquietude, as a rule, raises the developmental level of fear. Under the influence of this dynamism fear loses its biopsychological cohesiveness. It becomes subject to criticism, self-awareness and self-control. The temperamental and egocentric component of states of fear is being reduced. One becomes anxious over the fact that fear has often a paralyzing effect suppressing existential experience.

Feelings of inferiority toward oneself introduce differentiation between lower and higher levels of fear, and lead to significant analysis, disintegration, even pushing out of primitive states of fear to the margin, and slowly working out a transition toward altruistic fears. Disquietude over primitive types of fear and
affective memory of such primitive fears causes a feeling of inferiority toward one-self, thereby creating the need to move to higher anxieties, such as the existential. Feelings of shame and guilt play a considerable role in overcoming fears of lower level, their primitive dynamic and primitive symptoms. As a result, the altruistic elements of fear can be more freely expressed: fear for others, the feeling and need to help others in their states of anxiety; fear is now much stronger.

Dissatisfaction with oneself establishes a line of demarcation between primitive fear resulting from instinct of self-preservation or selfishness and fears of a more alterocentric character. Primitive fears are thus transcended through strong discontent with them. Dissatisfaction leads to constant readiness to counteract the pressure of primitive fears. It acts prophylactically against being seized and controlled by a primitive state of fear.
Positive maladjustment, besides being an attitude of discontent with primitive states of fear, engenders the formation of methods by which to counteract such fears. Primitive states of fear are brought under control while alterocentric elements begin to play a bigger role. It was known to the ancient Greeks that the object of fear is fear itself (Tillich, 1967). In the experience of fear one can face it deliberately and attempt nothing to prevent its intensification. One may be tempted to consider that by getting up, going out for a walk, talking to someone in the family, or by other actions one could shake off the fear, but instead one may let it grow, develop before one’s eyes in order to face it to the end, so that fear would be overcome by looking straight at it, by a kind of passive awareness. At other times one can fight fear by the above methods of active dispersion. Another method is practice of a form of “mental indignation”, or “mental shouting”, as a kind of impatience with oneself for letting oneself yield to fear as something less human.

Creative instinct brings new contents into states of fear. The “new” can be expressed on the hand by attitudes of curiosity toward fear (introduction of elements of analysis and intuition), and on the other it may express an urge for active transformation of experienced fear to other kinds of fear, usually of higher level, as for instance, into alterocentric and existential fears, and thus gain control of primitive states of fear. The element of curiosity brings complexity into the experience of fear and leads to the discovery of its new dimensions, such as anxiety, dread, or terror, even agony. My patients expressed it in many different ways, as for instance: “I have fear of my fear, but I let it grow, I let it try me, whether it will weaken my self-awareness, whether it will be stronger than me, or whether I will know more about it when I catch it in its weakness”. Many have experienced a kind of saturation with fear which leads to an altruistic transformation. Killing fear for oneself makes room for a new kind of fear -- a fear for the sake of others. The content of fear is expressed in painting (e.g. Goya), literature (e.g. Kafka), or music, especially in modern music (e.g. Penderecki). One observes
the beginning of a positive attitude toward fear, or even its friendly acceptance (e.g. Kierkegaard).
Identification and Empathy express identification with the fears and anxieties experienced by others and an empathic willingness and readiness to help them by either attenuating or removing their fear or by helping them to see its significance in their development.

Level IV

Altruistic anxieties, including moral anxieties in respect to others, begin to develop. There are anxieties in face of one’s own imperfection or inadequacy, empathic anxieties in regard to the death of others, existential anxieties over difficulties of reaching empirically to transcendental experience.

Self-awareness and Self-control have strong alterocentric components, therefore, in states of fear they do not allow the individual to be overcome with concern for his own self-preservation, or be reduced to thinking only about his own safety. These dynamisms are responsible for the abandonment of the primitive level of fear and the development of alterocentric fear characterized by identification with others and active desire to help others in their fears and anxieties. In addition, the individual develops a friendly, accepting attitude to anxieties of a higher level, those which are alterocentric and existential.

Subject-object in oneself acts to control and weaken fears of lower level through an objective scrutiny. The state of fear, the object of fear and its source are examined with penetration. Fears and anxieties experienced by others are understood more clearly not only in terms of those one has experienced oneself but also as experiences of extreme and intriguing subjectivity of others.

Third factor affirms and selects those fears and anxieties which are altruistic, existential, or even cosmic, and rejects fears which are selfish, temperamental, or psychosomatic.

Inner psychic transformation operates closely with subject-object in oneself and with third factor in changing states of fear by clearing them of everything that is not alterocentric, social, or existential. This is achieved by repeated objective testing of fear tensions at a lower level for increase in sensitivity to concern for others and for the direction of one’s own and their development. Lower levels of fear are thereby sensitized to more evolved concerns and transformed to fears of a higher level. In consequence primitive fears are inhibited and eventually entirely eliminated.

Education-of-oneself and Autopsychotherapy supplement the transformative work carried out by all other dynamisms. The result is an intuitive readiness for action and giving of oneself to the needs of others who are burdened by fears which they cannot overcome. The problems of fear and the distress of anxiety are
dealt with in the context of personal development as a whole. At this level of development only in exceptional cases there may be a need to develop a systematic program of dealing with one’s anxieties and fears, because rarely do they become debilitating. This would come more readily from excess of empathic sensitivity to the fears experienced by others and their existential despair than from any other source.

Identification and Empathy. The primary element in fear is altruistic concern, care for others, for those who are weak, easily frightened and taken advantage of by others. In consequence states of fear are not subject to the instinct of self-preservation but express, instead, social concerns, understanding and readiness to help.

Level V

At this level there are anxieties over one’s own imperfections, anxieties of not knowing the absolute, anxieties arising in states of strong psychic tension connected with the search for philosophical and mystical yet empirical solutions. Anxieties arise as a result of difficulties in reaching these solutions.

Autonomy and Authentism are expressed by a total control of all primitive states of fear. Responsibility, care for others and for things of “higher order” become an all-inclusive alterocentric concern.

Responsibility acts against any elements of egocentric character which could find their way into operations on this level. Responsibility here is, in fact, a readiness to protect others, while the experience of fear is evoked only through affective memory. Responsibility is present at a sustained level of concern for all those fears and anxieties which others experience both at lower and at higher levels, but especially for the fears suffered but those who are wronged and humiliated.

Personality Ideal finds its expression by a very direct and spontaneous readiness for sacrifice, for protecting others from fear and from any harm or evil. Example, Dr. Korczak, a Polish educator, went into the gas chamber together with the children of his orphanage telling them stories so as to spare them the fear of death (Dąbrowski, 1972, p. 120).

Empathy. It is clear from the above discussion of other dynamisms that empathy is a strong all-pervading component in each one of them.
 
Endymion said:
[...]
I'm reminded of something Gurdjieff once said, although I can't find the exact quote. It was something like: only feeling for others is real. And as Windmill Knight says: 'sometimes you just need to express your concerns to the Universe'. In fact I do this but I never thought of it as praying. :/ What I do when I am concerned about someone is to acknowledge to myself that I am concerned or worried about the person, then I make a request from my heart to the universe/DCM asking that the person be taken care of. I acknowledge that I cannot know what their lessons are and that their lessons might involve things happening to them that I don't like, and then I place my trust in the DCM that things will work out for the best for all concerned.

I'm reminded also of the Native American idea that one should do one good deed every day, but no-one should know about it. Anonymous prayer certainly fits the bill.

Hi Endymion. I just wanted to know if you happend to find that quote by any chance. When you wrote "only feeling for others is real" I thought of the following quote but what it's saying is not contextually the paraphrase of the quote you are thinking of, or so I think:

Faith of consciousness is freedom
Faith of feeling is weakness
Faith of body is stupidity.
Love of consciousness evokes the same in response
Love of feeling evokes the opposite
Love of body depends on type and polarity.
Hope of consciousness is strength
Hope of feeling is slavery
Hope of body is disease.

Do you remember which book you read that quote in? That might help me find it. Or maybe AI already knows where it is? Thanks.
 
Raintree said:
Endymion said:
[...]
I'm reminded of something Gurdjieff once said, although I can't find the exact quote. It was something like: only feeling for others is real. And as Windmill Knight says: 'sometimes you just need to express your concerns to the Universe'. In fact I do this but I never thought of it as praying. :/ What I do when I am concerned about someone is to acknowledge to myself that I am concerned or worried about the person, then I make a request from my heart to the universe/DCM asking that the person be taken care of. I acknowledge that I cannot know what their lessons are and that their lessons might involve things happening to them that I don't like, and then I place my trust in the DCM that things will work out for the best for all concerned.

I'm reminded also of the Native American idea that one should do one good deed every day, but no-one should know about it. Anonymous prayer certainly fits the bill.

Hi Endymion. I just wanted to know if you happend to find that quote by any chance. When you wrote "only feeling for others is real" I thought of the following quote but what it's saying is not contextually the paraphrase of the quote you are thinking of, or so I think:

Faith of consciousness is freedom
Faith of feeling is weakness
Faith of body is stupidity.
Love of consciousness evokes the same in response
Love of feeling evokes the opposite
Love of body depends on type and polarity.
Hope of consciousness is strength
Hope of feeling is slavery
Hope of body is disease.

Do you remember which book you read that quote in? That might help me find it. Or maybe AI already knows where it is? Thanks.

Edit: I just had another thought after re-reading the quote above. If one is fears for the well-being of another individual, then hoping for their consciousness to wake-up and help them help themselves out of their situation might be the correct form of praying for another individual. That might be lending another your 'strenght' due to having faith in their consciousness/soul determing when and how to help the individual in question. That way I think one won't be getting involved in another's karmic lesson profile, or so I think.
 
I have been thinking about my own responses and "stubborness" as I can also see the points that Oxajil and WK have mentioned. I think that I have lumped healing together with praying, thinking that the two belong together. And my experience with healing and especially with sending healing have been that I have found it more and more difficult to verbalize the prayer for the healing in order for it to be open enough to include everything, as I realised that I did not know what was truly the best for that person and their life's lessons. So the evocational prayer for the healing of someone has over time become more and more open with lots of "may this....if...and not interfere with the person's life lessons." Needless to say that in the beginning of the journey it was much easier, as the invocational prayer for the healing would be more along the lines of "please for this person's highest good and will, make this person better".

So I am becoming aware of the distinction between healing and praying.

Approaching Infinity said:
This has been a very interesting discussion! I just want to add a few thoughts. I agree that there's a difference between praying and "sending love and light". It seems to me that "sending love and light" is really just for oneself. It's not FOR the other person. It's not inspired by care for them, but by egotism: thinking that others should be the way YOU are, and trying to convert them using some magical means. It's saying the universe is flawed and I'm gonna fix it. It's metaphysical imperialism! Of course, like many religious people seeking to convert others who are different, it's couched in altruistic terms, but in reality, it ain't. So some "prayers" can fall into this as well, e.g. praying for God to convert all the heathens.
I don't know if I would cast all the L&L crowd in that category of being fueled by egotism as I used to know quite a few in the New age movement, who generally cared for others and who wore their hearts on the sleeve. In many cases it appears to me to be due to a lack of knowledge. That is, a heart without knowledge can be serving all kinds of forces STS or STO as it is unable to distinguish the true direction. By default serving mostly STS as that is the predominant frequency at the moment on planet Earth. And as STS often operates under the cloak of doing good, then a heart without knowledge will easily fall into the trap, as is seen over and over again in the Cointelpro New Age movement. A heart with knowledge is better able to discern what is what, and thus "look before going for the pot of gold".

Approaching Infinity said:
But what about when you do care for someone? What if you want what's best for them? This is the spot where there's some disagreement and confusion here, I think. The road to hell, and all that. A father can "want what's best" for his children, and pray that they become successful doctors, but really he's just projecting his own desires on his children. On the other hand, he can truly "want what's best" for his children, and pray that they lead lives that are fulfilling, in open terms. Maybe that means they become starving musicians. He can't know the ways in which their "success" will manifest, but I don't see anything wrong with him praying such a prayer, even without asking them.

If you love a person and want what's best for them (to nurture the growth of their soul, in Needleman's terms), I don't see any problem in praying for them, as long as it's open. Of course, that means that they may make bad choices, bad things may happen to them, and it can hurt to see this in a person we love, but as long as we're objective - understanding that all is lessons - but I think prayers inspired by love and concern may have nonlinear effects. Maybe we establish higher connections that way, making us stronger and better able to see the path that is right for us?
I think that having spent years in and around the new age movement have caused me to go to the other extreme and in the process have thrown out the instances where the concern is genuine and where the decision as to what is best for the person is left open and given to the DCM to decide.

Which brings me to the Muslim habit of saying Insha'Allah to everthing to do with the future. Insha'Allah meaning "God willing"
 
This has been a really interesting discussion. I don't have that much to add, but something came to my mind. In my training in traditional Japanese Reiki I've had good discussions about this 'interfering with someones free will' with my teacher. In his opinion one can do long distant Reiki to someone without their permission, but - and he stressed this - one must always have the intention/thought of "what is best for him/her" before engaging in the procedure. We can't possible know what is best for the person/soul, but we can channel the energy and "and let it do it's business".

As a little anecdote I would like to share an experience from two years ago, when I was doing distant Reiki to an important event in the future (yes, according to the Reiki traditions you can do this - send energy to an event in the future). Now, I'm not sure if this actually works, but then again maybe it's possible since there is no "time". Anyway, so I knew I had this important audition in the spring of 2008. It was for a permanent position in the Finnish National Opera choir. So I kept doing Reiki 'sessions' every now and then, sending energy to this future event, BUT having listened to my teacher I kept at all times the thought of "what is best for me" in mind. I knew, like Laura wrote in the Wave I believe, that if one anticipates the outcome, if one wants and craves a specific outcome you're doomed to fail. So, I kept thinking: "I don't know what outcome will be best for me in the long run, but whatever is best for me let it happen, with the help of this energy I'm sending."

And you know what actually happened that day? Well, I did really really well in the first round with my aria, but in the second round I pushed my voice a little bit too much which resulted in me becoming third in the final results (I think I might have become second without my 'overdoing'). The first two got their positions and I was in reserve. It turned out, that the following year there was a real shortage of tenors in the choir, so I had quite a lot of work anyway - not too much, just the right amount for me to mainly stay home with our son during the days. And what's best, because I got much more work at the opera than earlier, I actually saw what that job was like - how the REAL mind sets and attitudes behind the masks of those oh so wonderful singers where. I became gradually quite sick with the whole community and this charade of small talking and back stabbing. Imagine, if I've gotten the permanent position: it would probably have numbed me and made me lazy, not seeking any other job at all.

Having seen all this, I started turning my attention more towards teaching. And now, I'm very happy with my new job as a teacher in musical didactics at the university! So, I could argue that this Reiki energy that I sent knew exactly what was best for me, changing my path for something more aligned with the intentions of my higher self. :) :) :)
 
Raintree said:
Hi Endymion. I just wanted to know if you happend to find that quote by any chance.

Hi Raintree. I've hunted around and I'm afraid I can't find the quote. Perhaps AI knows where it is.

Aragorn said:
when I was doing distant Reiki to an important event in the future (yes, according to the Reiki traditions you can do this - send energy to an event in the future).

That's really interesting, Aragorn. Does the Reiki tradition speak about sending Reiki to events in the past?
 
Fear and concern for others is a genuine emotion. I had a habit of sending a petition to God whenever I felt this emotion asking for help and protection on the behalf of the other person. It was all anonymous and very personal. While this emotion was possibly genuine, I found that in my case the reaction to the emotion was mechanical. The emotion was uncomfortable (physically it raised the heart beat and caused a tightness in the solar plexus area) and praying released the tension - the Big Guy up there is going to take care of everything. In such a case, it seems like the energy of a genuine emotion is consumed by a habitual reaction - or so it seemed to me.
POTS and what Needleman says about prayer go very well together - a state of being open to the higher energies with a conscious intention. So far I am not completely understanding how this attitude of prayer can be applied towards others apart from asking to be able myself to help others as in POTS
Be my daily bread
As I give bread to others

Saying "help him/her as you see fit DCM" without any expectation would be open but is it objectively helpful for the other person? I do not know if there is a definite answer to this question. So if somebody feels better by doing it - it is fine. A slightly different approach could be to simply hold the other in the heart and wish him/her well - without invoking a higher power. The latter approach helps me in staying with the original emotions better - so it is just a personal preference.
 
obyvatel said:
So far I am not completely understanding how this attitude of prayer can be applied towards others apart from asking to be able myself to help others as in POTS
Be my daily bread
As I give bread to others

Saying "help him/her as you see fit DCM" without any expectation would be open but is it objectively helpful for the other person?

Hi Obyatel. I've been thinking that if you think of the word 'bread' in the POTS as both knowledge and consciousness as described by G in the recent quote above, a relationship is bridged together that starts to make sense? Be my daily knoweldge/consciounsess. As I give knowledge/consciousness to others (because truly 'giving' is higher form of love that evokes the same). So if I pray to awaken and at the same time be doing something real and practical about it, then I might actually help the 'whole' that is around me to awaken as well - the butterfly effect where probable truths that are 'old' to you start to become 'new' truths to friends, family, and eventually society as whole - the one hundred monkey thingy. This doing and praying would be an act of 'strength' I think that would help me/you/others to not drop the hope of consciousness, which if done so would then in turn lead to losing faith in true attaining true freedom as well - and nevermind the rest about finding true love! If you lost hope and then lost faith, you might as well be living in a misearble and loveless daily hell.

I do not know if there is a definite answer to this question. So if somebody feels better by doing it - it is fine. A slightly different approach could be to simply hold the other in the heart and wish him/her well - without invoking a higher power. The latter approach helps me in staying with the original emotions better - so it is just a personal preference.

Hmm, yeah maybe that would work too. Whatever helps you to keep going in the face of gloom and doom I guess.

...wow I have to wakeup in 4.5 hours...yikes. :cry:

Peace.
 
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