Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand Psychopath?

[Laura]

For instance, in our evolution we hunted animals down for food (at least that is the common believe,

We did.  See our thread on vegetarianism. (Hint: we do not advocate it.)

I personally do best on raw, ripe, organic, fresh, whole fruits and vegetables, preferably one at a time. That suggests to me that hunting was not an essential part in our evolution, but I might be missing something here).

You are.  See above.  I do best on meat and the same with about everybody I know who has escaped the vegetarian is good programming.  There are very few people who do best on fruits and vegetables though many who can tolerate more or less of them.  I just don't happen to be one of them.

This is an STS behaviour. When going to STO we should leave eating animals behind. But we seem to have needed to be STS in order to survive (otherwise no food). Aren't there parallels in modern time in the sense that STS behaviour is necessary, just in order to be able to survive and get to the next level?

There's a lot of discussion on these topics here on the forum.  I have to log off now, so you can have some quiet time reading!  

[FireShadow]

For instance, in our evolution we hunted animals down for food (at least that is the common believe, I personally do best on raw, ripe, organic, fresh, whole fruits and vegetables, preferably one at a time. That suggests to me that hunting was not an essential part in our evolution, but I might be missing something here). This is an STS behaviour. When going to STO we should leave eating animals behind. But we seem to have needed to be STS in order to survive (otherwise no food). Aren't there parallels in modern time in the sense that STS behaviour is necessary, just in order to be able to survive and get to the next level?

My understanding is that the body is just the vehicle - the matter part of our existence here on this planet at this time.  It is also my understanding that different bodies have different nutritional needs.  I would not do well without meat (tried it several times and just felt weak and tired).

As far as STO/STS is concerned, I think it is the soul that matters.  It is in the dynamic you choose to manifest - "To Be" or to "Not Be".  Do you want to spiritualize matter or matterize spirit?

Working independently, one does not have the "mirrors" to help one remain objective.  It is soooo easy to slip into wishful thinking without that objectivity.  Working in a network, one has those "mirrors" and encouragement.  What would keep you from also working to build resources within a network?

Edited for typos.

[Patience]

So what does it mean to be a good obvyatel in this world?

It seems that the model of being a shrewd but principled businessman or woman who through competence and cleverness creates an enterprise that helps many others maybe disappearing as a serious possibility as the process of ponerization continues. As more and more psychopaths gravitate towards positions of power, positions whose prequisites are increasingly suited to psychopaths, the space to navigate amongst them in their world without seriously compromising one's principles diminishes. Maybe the tipping point for empires from rising to falling is associated with the moment when normal people no longer can successfully navigate those waters. It is just too poisonous. Then the only survival strategy in this game is to find a new game, i.e., revolution. I mean this in the sense that this maybe is what has happened in the past. We now know that psychopaths not being attached to any ideal other than power and dominance can blend into the new revolutionary system and start the whole process over.

As I was wondering about what a good obvyatel is, I was thinking of a carpenter I knew long ago. It was during the housing boom in the US, and it was practically a household stereotype of the dishonest contractor. Make sure you have a good contract or those guys will rip you off. And left and right, these housing developments were popping up. Bland, cookie-cutter homes with shoddy construction... Impersonal neighborhoods with huge lawns... And if you lived in one of those developments that had a planning commitee and a charter, you might not even be allowed to do something useful with your lawn like plant a garden.
Many who called themselves carpenters were simply the guys pounding nails into these template homes.

Well... This carpenter was one of those truly skilled handymen who could plan and build a home at every stage including the plumbing and electricity. It would be sturdy and would age well. He had left the house factory business long ago, and his skills were properly appreciated by the affluent. So he would do a building project for some rich folks for which he would be well reimbursed, and in between, he would do other projects at a sliding scale for those who needed help but could not afford the standard rates. Sometimes he would advise folks trying to build their own homes for free about problems they could expect or about how they could make this or that part of the project better.

In a sense, he had found a way to survive in the environment he found himself in and still give back.

I see the obvyatel question as being sort of like waking up in a strange environment and not knowing how you got there. By the time, you know how to ask this question then you have woken up a little bit to the world around you, and just like this imaginary scenario of waking up into a strange place, you have only what you have at that moment no matter what may have passed before. Now you must decide the best way possible to live in this environment you find yourself in and you start exactly from a position defined by your skills, resources, and limitations.

There may still be times when the shrewd but principled businessman is the way to go, but I am not sure it is the only way to achieve "success" in this world.

[Dirk]

I think I understand your dilemma.  I also think you haven't given being part of a true network striving toward "STO" (for lack of a better term) a chance.  Most people haven't and have a hard time doing it because it is VERY hard to undo years of programming.  We are inculcated into the psychopathic reality from birth and all our programs and buffers develop as a way to survive.  Giving them up feels to us like being naked, cold, alone, abandoned.  It's scary.  You can only do it in a network, and then you learn how to BE in a network, and that includes learning how to create a strategic enclosure, how to understand "good and evil" in terms of your aim, (which, in a network, is the aim of the network - all for one and one for all).  There's a discussion on the forum here about some very difficult things Gurdjieff taught or exampled,  including things written about in "Meetings With Remarkable Men."  Do a search on that - I think it will be well worth your time.

Gee, so many threads to read, eh?  

I think there are very powerful networks out there striving towards STO. The best thing you can bring to those networks is an addtional network of STO-striving people+a big amount of worldly resources.

I personally feel uncomfortable, however, with people who claim to want to move to STO, but who are still very dependent on STS networks in order to be able to support themselves (myself included). It seems like well intented talk, but they have nothing to show for it. Isn't it better to surrender to an STS environment for a while, gain a certain amount of worldly resources, so that you can at least support yourself, but preferably bring more and then re-evaluate your polarization?

I will do a search on your suggestion. Yes, a lot to read.

[FireShadow]

Isn't it better to surrender to an STS environment for a while, gain a certain amount of worldly resources, so that you can at least support yourself, but preferably bring more and then re-evaluate your polarization?

Or, perhaps, working within the STS enviroment without "surrendering" to it.  I agree that many of us must still operate in that environment just to survive.  But, perhaps being part of a network and keeping "strategic enclosure" would help maintain one's sanity while there. 

[Patience]

I personally feel uncomfortable, however, with people who claim to want to move to STO, but who are still very dependent on STS networks in order to be able to support themselves (myself included). It seems like well intented talk, but they have nothing to show for it. Isn't it better to surrender to an STS environment for a while, gain a certain amount of worldly resources, so that you can at least support yourself, but preferably bring more and then re-evaluate your polarization?

I think the answer to your question would be yes, no, maybe... And I am not being a smart-aleck when I write that (Well... not completely  ).

Many who find a home in this forum begin to think of good and evil not in terms of adhering to a list of ethics and laws rather written externally or formulated internally but as a choice dependant on one's aims and the circumstances of the situation at hand. Not to say that everything is relative to your point of view... If your aim is objective truth, then a situation sufficiently understood will reveal choices in accordance with your aim and others that are not, and sometimes these choices might not be what you would like. I think of the following quote an article of Laura's entitled "Jupiter, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and the Return of the Mongols" by Laura Knight-Jadczyk:

There are those who think that truth or lies are always static, that a lie is a lie is a lie and that to be "good," one must ALWAYS tell the "truth." However, it is not always that easy. For example, consider France during the Nazi occupation. Undoubtedly, many of those involved in the resistance lied daily and regularly about their plans and activities. What was different about their lies was the INTENT and the SPECIFIC SITUATION. In such a situation, speaking the truth to a Nazi soldier who would use that truth to destroy one's fellow resistance fighters would be "evil," so to say, and lying would be "good." The greater truth that the lie served was Freedom from Tyranny. The "observer" of the situation knew the objective truth that revealing his plans or betraying his brothers would bring their deaths. The reality of the Nazis was based on subjective lies, and by responding to these lies leading to tyranny with an opposite lie that led to freedom was then an effective canceling of the subjectivity leaving the field clear for objectivity. This simple example ought to give the reader much to think about in terms of the socialized belief in a "black and white" exposition of "truth or lies" and "good and evil".

[Dirk]

I personally feel uncomfortable, however, with people who claim to want to move to STO, but who are still very dependent on STS networks in order to be able to support themselves (myself included). It seems like well intented talk, but they have nothing to show for it. Isn't it better to surrender to an STS environment for a while, gain a certain amount of worldly resources, so that you can at least support yourself, but preferably bring more and then re-evaluate your polarization?

I think the answer to your question would be yes, no, maybe... And I am not being a smart-aleck when I write that (Well... not completely  ).

Many who find a home in this forum begin to think of good and evil not in terms of adhering to a list of ethics and laws rather written externally or formulated internally but as a choice dependant on one's aims and the circumstances of the situation at hand. Not to say that everything is relative to your point of view... If your aim is objective truth, then a situation sufficiently understood will reveal choices in accordance with your aim and others that are not, and sometimes these choices might not be what you would like. I think of the following quote an article of Laura's entitled "Jupiter, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and the Return of the Mongols" by Laura Knight-Jadczyk:

There are those who think that truth or lies are always static, that a lie is a lie is a lie and that to be "good," one must ALWAYS tell the "truth." However, it is not always that easy. For example, consider France during the Nazi occupation. Undoubtedly, many of those involved in the resistance lied daily and regularly about their plans and activities. What was different about their lies was the INTENT and the SPECIFIC SITUATION. In such a situation, speaking the truth to a Nazi soldier who would use that truth to destroy one's fellow resistance fighters would be "evil," so to say, and lying would be "good." The greater truth that the lie served was Freedom from Tyranny. The "observer" of the situation knew the objective truth that revealing his plans or betraying his brothers would bring their deaths. The reality of the Nazis was based on subjective lies, and by responding to these lies leading to tyranny with an opposite lie that led to freedom was then an effective canceling of the subjectivity leaving the field clear for objectivity. This simple example ought to give the reader much to think about in terms of the socialized belief in a "black and white" exposition of "truth or lies" and "good and evil".

Interesting. Thanks. That is kind of what I am pointing at. When using this tactic, however, it may not be possible to join an STO network yet and in a sense you will have to operate 'alone' for a while (just like STS, though the long-term intent is different).

[Bluestar]

Hello Dirk,

For instance, in our evolution we hunted animals down for food (at least that is the common believe, I personally do best on raw, ripe, organic, fresh, whole fruits and vegetables, preferably one at a time. That suggests to me that hunting was not an essential part in our evolution, but I might be missing something here). This is an STS behaviour. When going to STO we should leave eating animals behind. But we seem to have needed to be STS in order to survive (otherwise no food). Aren't there parallels in modern time in the sense that STS behaviour is necessary, just in order to be able to survive and get to the next level?

First, we are in an sts environment, therefore we are sts.  There is at present no way to not be.  Even with all the work on oneself, we are here and we have to navigate with what we have.  I have learned from this forum and the much reading I have done, that we can not focus on 4dsto at present.  As Laura mentioned earlier, we are striving towards sto.  That is because we can not see it or imagine what it is like with the tools that we have been given.

What we can do is walk the talk.  Patience gives a great example of this.  It is what we do with the position we are in, the actions that come before us, the people we encounter, this is what counts.

You really need to read the Wave and Adventure series, before the forum topics and transcripts by themselves.  The information within these resources are priceless and will answer some of your questions.  Probably add some more questions, but researching the answers for yourself is the key.

[Dirk]

You really need to read the Wave and Adventure series, before the forum topics and transcripts by themselves.  The information within these resources are priceless and will answer some of your questions.  Probably add some more questions, but researching the answers for yourself is the key.

I have read parts of it, though it is a huge amount of material (the basics about 15 or 20 books or so altogether?).

I thought I was ready for some questions, as I have done a lot of research myself before and I am trying to bring it together. I feel a lot of value can be found here (though I am not completely ready for all of it).

[Dirk]

Hello Dirk,

For instance, in our evolution we hunted animals down for food (at least that is the common believe, I personally do best on raw, ripe, organic, fresh, whole fruits and vegetables, preferably one at a time. That suggests to me that hunting was not an essential part in our evolution, but I might be missing something here). This is an STS behaviour. When going to STO we should leave eating animals behind. But we seem to have needed to be STS in order to survive (otherwise no food). Aren't there parallels in modern time in the sense that STS behaviour is necessary, just in order to be able to survive and get to the next level?

First, we are in an sts environment, therefore we are sts.  There is at present no way to not be.  Even with all the work on oneself, we are here and we have to navigate with what we have.  I have learned from this forum and the much reading I have done, that we can not focus on 4dsto at present.  As Laura mentioned earlier, we are striving towards sto.  That is because we can not see it or imagine what it is like with the tools that we have been given.

What we can do is walk the talk.  Patience gives a great example of this.  It is what we do with the position we are in, the actions that come before us, the people we encounter, this is what counts.

You really need to read the Wave and Adventure series, before the forum topics and transcripts by themselves.  The information within these resources are priceless and will answer some of your questions.  Probably add some more questions, but researching the answers for yourself is the key.

Hmm. I think it is possible to operate in 3D STO relatively easy (relatively easy, it is still extremely difficult). I certainly believe I know how it feels and what it means. I just haven't managed to be able to operate in it a substantial amount of my time yet. 4D STO I have no idea of.

[anart]

Hmm. I think it is possible to operate in 3D STO relatively easy (relatively easy, it is still extremely difficult). I certainly believe I know how it feels and what it means. I just haven't managed to be able to operate in it a substantial amount of my time yet. 4D STO I have no idea of.

Hi Dirk, I think you're misinterpreting terms and because of this making some generally erroneous comments.  I also think that once you have a chance to really take the time to read the material available here, it will go a long way toward helping you understand some of these concepts.  '3D STO' cannot be what you seem to think it is because there is no '3D STO' on this planet at this point in time to speak of, as this is an STS realm and humanity is currently the 3D representation of STS.  From that mindset, it is almost impossible to conceptualize 'operating in STO'.

If you would take the time to read the material already suggested to you, I think it would make a big difference and you'd really enjoy it.   

[Buddy]

I personally feel uncomfortable, however, with people who claim to want to move to STO, but who are still very dependent on STS networks in order to be able to support themselves (myself included). It seems like well intented talk, but they have nothing to show for it. Isn't it better to surrender to an STS environment for a while, gain a certain amount of worldly resources, so that you can at least support yourself, but preferably bring more and then re-evaluate your polarization?

Just my take, but I think the STS/STO concept is being mis-used here, creating confusion. In my view, STS and STO are absolutes, or generalities FROM the widest perspective which include the forces of Creativity/Entropy. If this is the case then it would be inappropriate to apply these generalities to a specific context without changing to a more context-specific definition.

If we can be no other than STS while in this 3D environment, then we look at the concept of 'entropy' and the concept of 'Creativity' as it applies to various 3D contexts.

What is more entropic to life and 3D resources: working and earning a living with the necessary accumulation of certain needed properties, or living on welfare (or pick any set of choices)?

[Dirk]

'3D STO' cannot be what you seem to think it is because there is no '3D STO' on this planet at this point in time to speak of

That surprises me. What did Ghandi do? What did Martin Luther King do? What did Mother Theresa do? I will progressively do more reading as suggested, sure, as I seem to be missing parts of the puzzle.

[Buddy]

'3D STO' cannot be what you seem to think it is because there is no '3D STO' on this planet at this point in time to speak of

That surprises me. What did Ghandi do? What did Martin Luther King do? What did Mother Theresa do?

From my perspective, the people who have the biggest problem with Objectivism as a subject, also have not yet become aware of how genuine altruism has been ponerized, leaving a person with the impression that in order to be maximally beneficial to society, one must be totally self-sacrificing - as if one, or one's work has no value whatever. Also, people are generally unaware of how psychopaths influence the economy and everything else, while hiding themselves and the crimes they are responsible for behind others and 'ideas'.

The people you ask about were not genuine altruists, as I understand the term and it's relationship to the STO dynamic. I reckon a case can be made that they all did both harm as well as good, but that's not a 'saying properly' as some people interpret their work.

As one example, it is my impression that people didn't tune into Mother Theresa to learn about macro-social economic dysfunction and it's 'cure'. They tuned in, saw what a spectacle she made of herself, nodded and uttered the falsehood that they thought it was a 'good' idea. And reality check - Mother Theresa's hostel never held more than 30 people last time I heard anything about it. 

[Patience]

As one example, it is my impression that people didn't tune into Mother Theresa to learn about macro-social economic dysfunction and it's 'cure'. They tuned in, saw what a spectacle she made of herself, nodded and uttered the falsehood that they thought it was a 'good' idea. And reality check - Mother Theresa's hostel never held more than 30 people last time I heard anything about it. 

OK... But MLK was all about macro-social economic dysfunction and it's cure. Somebody like him is an exception that proves the rule. Only in a world thoroughly corrupted by pathology would such a man be assassinated.

To be honest, I find the whole STO/STS terminology rather difficult to use. What we know of ponerology explains a lot more to me and seems to be more precise. I feel more and more that we can not know what challenges are inherent to human nature until we find a way to treat the effects of thousands of years of pathological influence.