A Visit to India

flashgordonv

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I just spent a week in India, for work rather than for a holiday. It was my first visit to India, although I have spend a lot of time in Thailand, the Philippines, and Malaysia. In some ways India is quite like all of them, just on a much more massive scale. It is a very confronting place, more conspicuous grinding poverty than I have ever seen before, and just so many people. People everywhere, and they range from the very poorest to the very wealthy.

It is a country of great divides, such wealth intermingled with such poverty. I visited the sales office of the company I work for and spent all but one day with these people and visiting customers. They clearly are among the middle class in India and they have a very pleasant life. Because labour is so cheap, they all have servants. All cooking, cleaning, child minding, washing, in fact all household duties, are done by live in servants. Food is cheap, household items are cheap, most luxury items are cheap, housing is cheap, ultimately because labour is cheap.

Most of them have not one but two drivers, one for the husband and one for the wife. When we need to get a ride from the office to the hotel, one of the sales guys said he would arrange for us to go in his car. We thought that meant he would drive us, but instead we went down to the car park, he shouted his driver's name, the driver popped his head up in the car, received directions and then drove us to the hotel. He spends his whole day sitting in the car in the carpark just in case the sales guy wants to go out.

The traffic is enough to scare you silly. It appear utterly chaotic, but after a while I could detect a rhythm to it. Basically there are SO many cars that normal road rules, like give way and the like, make no sense. So everybody drives with their hand on the horn, and expects to force their way across intersections, and not to hit other people when they are forcing their way out. I was amazed at how few accidents I saw and how calm most drivers were, even in the most dense traffic. It just works. But if you drove that way in Australia or the USA, you would kill people and/or be killed in short order.

For many people wages are so low. I read an article in the Times of India written by a guy who had completed his Computer Sciences degree. His first job paid $1800 rupee a month or around US$40. And that was for a degree qualified guy. There were signs on billboards, saying "call XXX and see about earning a six figure salary" Well, 100,000 rupees is about US$2200 a year, oh so little.

On one occasion we were looking for somewhere that would serve us coffee that would not give us the runs, and we ended up in McDonald's. It could have been any McDonald's anywhere in the world - very depressing. Only difference was the number of vegetarian burgers and the amount of curry based burgers and wraps.

We took one day out for sight seeing. So hut and steamy and such a dirty place, covered in rubbish, in rubble, most buildings not painted just dirty stained concrete. So many slums with people living under plastic, in corrugated iron shacks, in fallen down buildings, in half finished constructions, on the footpath, everywhere people existing in poverty. People in shacks beside a six lane road with children playing in the dirt as cars whizzed past them a metre away. People digging through rubbish dumps, rubbish bins, scavenging everywhere, just trying to keep food on the family table. So many three wheeled taxis, old buses, 50 year old Fiat taxis, interspersed with Mercedes and Japaness cars. BWM, Porsche, Ferrari and Mercedes dealership in areas which look so dirty and depressing.

My wife also came to take a look and do the tourist thing. She found the whole thing quite confronting. She was advised not to leave the hotel without a hotel car and driver, and the driver would wait with her while she shopped. Basically she did not leave the hotel other than with an escort and ended up spending a lot of time in the hotel itself, rather than seeing the country. For her, not being with a bunch of middle class businessmen as I was, the whole experience was somewhat frightening and she has no desire to go back the next time I need to visit.

And Beggars everywhere. Walking through the traffic, banging on your window, confronting you where ever you stopped, crippled, blind, some seemingly healthy some old and frail. And people selling things, so persistent, so irritating and in your face that in the end the only way to survive is to completely ignore them, as even saying "NO" was taken as an expressed interest in conducting a conversation.

So many people out to scam you. Stolen luggage, stolen computer bags, "the shit on the shoe" scam, water bottles refilled and sold as clean water, on it goes. If there is a way to part you from your money or your possessions, it is practiced in India, relentlessly. And yet at the same time, I see this is people trying to make a buck, and trying to get it from people who obviously are far better off than they are.

I must say that that after a few days of moving in business circles I became somewhat immune to the down sides of the place. I was taken only to respectable offices and restaurants where the food was healthy and reputable and avoiding the really poor and disgustingly dirty areas. I think to the middle class Indian, they don't see what is around them, it has become background noise, and it is filtered out. It would be enormously confronting to deal with the fact that you were so wealthy comparatively and your countrymen were so desperately poor,so they don't see. And after a day or two, I almost didn't see either. Almost.

And there is no government assistance whatsoever, other than for education. Education is free, nothing else is. As the lady who was our tour guide - her , a driver and three of us - said "You either work or you beg and steal". No social security no health services, no nothing. The country is predominantly Hindu and very focused on reincarnation and I believe that has a big impact on the lack of government services. "You chose this life to learn lessons so get on with it" seems to be the approach.

We came home on the weekend and the single biggest impression we came away with was how blessed and fortunate we are to live in a country which is prosperous, not overcrowded, and not beset with the level of poverty and dirt and filth we saw in India. Everything is relative in this regard, but compared to India, Australia is a paradise.
 
Being borned and raised in india , I would like to make some comments. Being the first time visitor to india , your observations are very good.

Flashgordonv said:
It is a country of great divides, such wealth intermingled with such poverty. I visited the sales office of the company I work for and spent all but one day with these people and visiting customers. They clearly are among the middle class in India and they have a very pleasant life.

there is a saying " hard worked person can enjoy the nice times, but man who lived during nice times can't live in hard times". The pleasant ness the some middle class feel is of that pleasant ness from the past hard times.

Because labour is so cheap, they all have servants. All cooking, cleaning, child minding, washing, in fact all household duties, are done by live in servants.
if you ask them about the luxury of servants, they will start complaining about the quality of the servants , how they have to keep on checking what the servant does etc.

Food is cheap, household items are cheap, most luxury items are cheap, housing is cheap, ultimately because labour is cheap.

Middle class distinction has changed drastically during this decade due to software and the economy that revolved around it and even the salaries of the central govt. employees, whose salaries depend on IMF loans increased 5 to 6 times thus pushing the conscious middle class to then india's rich class. for example , if a medium size bank officer earns $250 /month, multi national bank officer earns $500/month , where as inexperienced software fresher starts his life with $1000/month ( of course in a big software company) and his growth is very steep with in 5 years software guys will be expecting $2000/month. people in other fields are not that fortunate to afford. the driver in big cities may be earning $150/month, so drivers are affordable for a software guy.



The traffic is enough to scare you silly.

Many of my american friends went through horror of indian traffic during first 2 days , then they will know nothing will happen and they will start laughing at the traffic patterns from third day. It is like a thrill ride .

It appear utterly chaotic, but after a while I could detect a rhythm to it.

All this is safe , due to low speeds and naturally every thing ( vehicles, human and animal traffic ) self adjusts to the roads. People are considerate enough,to be safe.
. Basically there are SO many cars that normal road rules, like give way and the like, make no sense. So everybody drives with their hand on the horn, and expects to force their way across intersections, and not to hit other people when they are forcing their way out. I was amazed at how few accidents I saw and how calm most drivers were, even in the most dense traffic. It just works. But if you drove that way in Australia or the USA, you would kill people and/or be killed in short order.

Decade ago, people used to drive 2 wheelers ( scooters, mopeds, bi cycles ) drove like that . with money and car craze, now every body has a car and they are using car more or less same way. I still don't see any advantage of car on indian roads.

For many people wages are so low. I read an article in the Times of India written by a guy who had completed his Computer Sciences degree. His first job paid $1800 rupee a month or around US$40. And that was for a degree qualified guy. There were signs on billboards, saying "call XXX and see about earning a six figure salary" Well, 100,000 rupees is about US$2200 a year, oh so little.

yes, these type of salaries are in small software companies , not in the big companies.

I think to the middle class Indian, they don't see what is around them, it has become background noise, and it is filtered out.

People feel that pain of the poverty , but nothing can be done. One can't even get a single land permit or any official thing done with out bribing. It is a horror to be straight forward. Even if try to help some body , there is no guarentee that you are not taken advantage of . so people become complacent with the system and its poverty.

And there is no government assistance whatsoever, other than for education.
Indian govt. gets billions of dollars for assist the needy , much less than one percent reaches the needy.

Education is free, nothing else is.

For western worlds standards, it is cheaper, but not to the average non computer field middle class. Only for top layer middle class people get the free education


No social security no health services, no nothing.
parents puts every thing they earn for children's growth and expect the children to take care of them. That works as a good social security, though some times it is very painful for elderly, due to all shades of feeding goes in treating the elders.

> The country is predominantly Hindu and very focused on reincarnation and I believe that has a big impact on the lack of government services. "You chose this life to learn lessons so get on with it" seems to be the approach.

Though Karma is predominant, there is general hopelessness to change ( mainly due to corruption ) contributed to complacency. That is why 'Activism' in the indian society very less leaving that to the very few spiritually motivated disciples.



[/quote]
 
thank you flashgordonv...very informative article...if i may ask...what were the drinking water conditions you experienced while in India?
 
Is this a good example of typical Indian traffic? If so, this is absolutely insane! Somehow that seems incredibly stressful to always have to be so alert and "timing" a way to squeeze past chaotically moving traffic at just the right time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjrEQaG5jPM
 
What stroke me in such countrys this is the use of the horn, used all the time ! This is such an habit that even when there's only two cars on the road, coming in front of each other with no danger, you can hear a hoot.
 
Very good observations and sadly all are true as well. Often my friends from India tell me about the progress India has made and persuade me to move back and look for a job and then I ask them the same questions raised here.
I think in India, one feels so much helpless to help anyone that often you'd be one taken advantage of and I have seen and felt this first hand. So all you can do is be more selfish and look out for yourself. But there is only one silver lining to this, countries like Australia, USA or UK, since they are so well structured (so they appear on the face), it's much easier to control people and implement this new world order. India on the other hand is so deeply corrupted that nobody complains and every Indian tries to form a livelihood around the system. In fact nothing stays hidden in India, whether shady govt conspiracies, UFO events, terrorist attacks, civil wars, hindu-muslim fights, Kashmir war etc. Only problem is that most Indians have got their heads so deeply buried in the sand that 1 week old news is well, it never happened and hardly anyone gets the real picture and there are plenty of topics in India to keep people busy though mostly religious. But still it's not easy for one type of group to maintain control on a place like India and I can't really see India becoming part of the new world order.

Other than that, if any of you wish to visit India as a tourist than please do as there are still quite a few good places for visitation especially Himalayas. ;D
 
probably, it is my self importance that makes me to comment on the things that I had opinions and experience. so some more comments , more or less from my machine's mechanical part.

aeonian.lion said:
thank you flashgordonv...very informative article...if i may ask...what were the drinking water conditions you experienced while in India?
when ever I visit india , I don't drink any thing other than boiled and cooled water. If it is not done , I will get cold immediately, I am more vulnerable during the initial week. There are bottled water , much better than the tap water , but the quality is not assured.

Is this a good example of typical Indian traffic? If so, this is absolutely insane! Somehow that seems incredibly stressful to always have to be so alert and "timing" a way to squeeze past chaotically moving traffic at just the right time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjrEQaG5jPM
I saw this video some time back. this is typical early morning traffic. not even the peak time crowd. Add some buffalo's and dogs in between for reality sake.
It sounds more amazing and dangerous to see from the top of building , but the people who are driving doesn't even feel that way. It is like a person in the cloud , can't see the shape of the cloud or can't even feel that they are in the cloud. Amazingly , very few accidents , another instinctive program of caution and defense from trillion's of brain cells. IF some accident happens , the traffic stops and people gather to express opinions or atleast to see what has happened. Life goes on.

I always amazed at the cause of this population explosion. Way back in early 1970's , then prime minister Indira gandhi confronted with a task of controlling population along the lines china was considering. Naturally, like any politician Indira gandhi argued that with industrial growth with population can be better utilized for country's good. The real cause is , she feared of losing her traditional Muslim vote bank, who will fight for population control. Though , this explanation sounds logical at human level, I felt the following reason much more meaningful.

940716
Q: (L) What is the purpose of this project?
A: New life here.
Q: (L) Are the aliens using our emotions and energies?
A: Correct; and bodies too. Each earth year 10 % more children are taken.
Q: (L) Do they suffer?
A: Some.
Q: (L) Do they all suffer?
A: Some. Bits of children's organs removed while they are wide awake. Kidneys first;
then next feet; next jaw examined on table; tongues cut off; bones stress tested; pressure
placed on heart muscle until it bursts.
Q: (L) Why are you telling us this awful stuff?
A: You must know what the consortium is doing. This is done mostly to Indian children.
Q: (L) Why are things like this being done?
A: There is a big effort on behalf of Orions and their human brethren to create a new
race and control it as well as the rest of humanity.
Q: (L) What happens to the souls? Is this project physical only?
A: Physical and souls recycled.

It is like " vietnam war is smoke screen for experiments on soldiers".

Only problem is that most Indians have got their heads so deeply buried in the sand that 1 week old news is well, it never happened and hardly anyone gets the real picture and there are plenty of topics in India to keep people busy though mostly religious.
family obligations with out the knoweldge of the psychopathy & OP with the programs of patriarchy drain a lot of energy too.

But still it's not easy for one type of group to maintain control on a place like India and I can't really see India becoming part of the new world order.
This is a wide spread impression every body who lived in india felt until decade back. Some thing magical happened. suddenly trains started running on time , every thing is computerised under the pretext of lessening the corruption ( it didn't reduce the corruption any way ) , people became more obedient to follow the rules with Id cards , though the population explosition didn't stop.

The tragedy that fallen ( in my opinion ) is the death of freedom of press. there were very good sources, they boldly publish the truth under the cloud of lawless groups of politicians, anti-social elements ( probably E-motion ) . Now ,There are so many new TV channels, so much glitter ( or clutter ) came up , but crux of all the all the euphoria is 'talking points' ( a word familiar in the western press ) , truth based on observations is no where. With this death of freedom of press and 20 new genetically modified food crops that our military industrial complex producing in hyderabad agricultural university, the results will be obvious very soon.
 
SAO said:
Is this a good example of typical Indian traffic? If so, this is absolutely insane! Somehow that seems incredibly stressful to always have to be so alert and "timing" a way to squeeze past chaotically moving traffic at just the right time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjrEQaG5jPM

you may want to watch this too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBvkXJ4WJ7Q&feature=related
 
aeonian.lion said:
thank you flashgordonv...very informative article...if i may ask...what were the drinking water conditions you experienced while in India?

We were very careful to only drink bottled water. However, we discovered on the last day that the people who cleaned our room washed the glasses and cups under the tap, so I guess we were involuntary partakers of the local water. We did manage to spend a week there and not get sick at all.
 
I realize this is an old thread, but the following new video by Jason Jones of The Daily Show really illustrates seek10's point that I bold emphasized below.


seek10 said:
Only problem is that most Indians have got their heads so deeply buried in the sand that 1 week old news is well, it never happened and hardly anyone gets the real picture and there are plenty of topics in India to keep people busy though mostly religious.
family obligations with out the knoweldge of the psychopathy & OP with the programs of patriarchy drain a lot of energy too.

But still it's not easy for one type of group to maintain control on a place like India and I can't really see India becoming part of the new world order.
This is a wide spread impression every body who lived in india felt until decade back. Some thing magical happened. suddenly trains started running on time , every thing is computerised under the pretext of lessening the corruption ( it didn't reduce the corruption any way ) , people became more obedient to follow the rules with Id cards , though the population explosition didn't stop.

The tragedy that fallen ( in my opinion ) is the death of freedom of press. there were very good sources, they boldly publish the truth under the cloud of lawless groups of politicians, anti-social elements ( probably E-motion ) . Now ,There are so many new TV channels, so much glitter ( or clutter ) came up , but crux of all the all the euphoria is 'talking points' ( a word familiar in the western press ) , truth based on observations is no where. With this death of freedom of press and 20 new genetically modified food crops that our military industrial complex producing in hyderabad agricultural university, the results will be obvious very soon.


https://youtu.be/wvOAKIghpoo
 
If a common journalist can bribe in to news channel coverage so easily, what about the political leaders?. Notably soon to be prime minister Narendra Modi. He is expected to do the things in the day light which outoging government hesitated to do it in night(for the corporations). With all this, it looks Indian democracy became American democracy. Of course, they are working towards that for couple of decades with the flood of foreign money or confidence or credit.
 
Great thread! I've lived in India and would love to move back. The poverty is of course horrendous but somehow the people deal with it so well, always a smile. Of course the traffic was beyond belief some of the time but as was pointed out earlier, everybody being aware of it, everyone is considerate. I would like to make one point on the traffic though through light of a personal story. Once we were in an accident and a child fell of the back of a bike and hit his head. We immediately got of the bike and rushed to the child. Our Indian friend started yelling at us to leave quickly which we couldn't understand. There was a crowd gathering and my pleading with us to go. At this point some people started blaming our friend for the accident (very important to point out it was not his fault, the family on the bike had pulled out directly in front of him while he was going quite slowly). Anyway it ended up with our friend taking off on his bike which we felt was rude. Later when speaking to him he said that the mob which was forming might have beating him to a pulp if he had stayed. Though we weren't aware of it at the time, it was a very scary experience. Important to note, while there was lots of blood at the time, the child only had a very small would on the back of his head and I think was more in shock from all the people crowding around him than from the fall. I look forward to my next trip to India which will hopefully be very soon.
 
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