The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient times

[Rob]

No, because sound change is generally very regular, both over time and sociolinguistically. Even though sound change occurs, the patterns remain, and can still be compared.

Ok, i see what you mean.
BTW, i appreciate receiving linguistics 101 from you. Much more efficient than reading copious amounts of language laws. 

The short answer is that they can't. But they can often be reasonably inferred via the comparative method and reconstruction described in the above article (most people would say 100,000 years is really pushing it, though, but who knows...).

I c.

Does that therefore mean that whatever has been discovered so far about the Sumerian language 'characteristics' is not necessary assumed to be 100% accurate? At least that is what i have read, ie, no where near 100%
.
 If so, would that mean linguists  need to be more flexible regarding the tracing of descendant languages from Sumerian than those of Latin since much more of Latin is understood? Not too flexible of course to the point of accepting relatives everywhere, but at least not dismissive of possible relatives until things r categorically proven.   Yet from what I've read they categorically say there is no (living) descendant.

If 2 words spell similar, sound similar, & mean the same or similar thing, that would i assume suggest either borrowing or direct lineage.
I keep reading that 'chance' plays a part such as

and whatever sporadic matches can be observed are due either to chance (as in the above example) or to borrowing (e.g. Latin diabolus and English devil, both ultimately of Greek origin[33])

I agree chance occurs occasionally (such as mom, dad, etc), but to a layman like me it seems to be cited too often, seems more like a cop out some experts use since they know no other explanation (potentially due to not knowing the cultures in question, or the language (if living), &/or are a specialist in only 1 field (ie narrow vision which excludes evidence from other fields), etc.

I would argue that any words with similar sound, meaning, & spelling is either borrowed or related, but not chance, especially if the word is complex, long, etc.
The odds of it being chance (hehe) is negligible  (to a  layman like me).

Although the 18 & 19th C scholars/experts used outdated science they were much more holistic than todays experts & their cross-fields conclusions suggest much more collaboration is required between todays specialist fields. Much more weight of evidence would then be brought to bare on a proposition or problem.

Anyway, thx again.

[winnergo]

Hi there,

Im Bence and i just saw whats this topic about. I would really appreciate a conversation with the writer of all these things, i mean who quoted etc etc. So, if there is any possibility to get in contact with he/ she, i would be glad if i would hear from you. These facts and statements are so new to me, i mean ive already knew the history is fake and our system is based on lies and i was guessing about the hungarian nationality. But this is too much for a time. So i ask it again, please let me have a possibility to learn something true and new, something real and well examined, something what isnt guessing or brainwashing. Thanks a lot

[Shijing]

Hi Bence, and welcome to the forum. We encourage all new members to make an intro post in the Newbies section, telling us a bit about yourself and how you found us. Looking forward to your introduction.

[Nienna]

Hi winnergo,

We highly discourage private communications to protect both parties from predation and negative feedback loops.  It has happened again and again so we do know what we are talking about.  You can read here to see what we are talking about.

Any questions you have, you are more than welcome to post them here.  You may be surprised at how networking with many people gives you a lot of different aspects on a subject.

[Gandash]

Hi all

I am into history not linguistics but you guys need to be carefull with presudo-amateur lingustics the results could be bad...

On Etruscan we only know few hundred words so far, so too early to tell but those seem to be related to finn-ugor languages
for example : Etruscan: Apa, Hungarian:Apa both means father..

Anyway we know that Etruscan was agglutinative so not indo-european for sure...

Similary when back then everybody tought Sumerian was semitic language lol ..

[Heimdallr]

Hi all

I am into history not linguistics but you guys need to be carefull with presudo-amateur lingustics the results could be bad...

Could you be more specific where you see instances of results formed from questionable linguistics occurring in this thread?

[Gandash]

just saying be carefull .. because Lingustic is complicated..
for example, when trying to compare sumerian(only reconstructed version) with hungarian is not that easy..
In academic circles sumerian is agglutinative same as hungarian but within that it's isolate...

[Gandalf]

Hi Gandash,

Welcome to our forum. 

We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read. 

You can have a look through that board to see how others have done it.

[Shijing]

Hi Gandesh --

just saying be carefull .. because Lingustic is complicated..
for example, when trying to compare sumerian(only reconstructed version) with hungarian is not that easy..
In academic circles sumerian is agglutinative same as hungarian but within that it's isolate...

You're correct that it's important to maintain controls when comparing languages like Sumerian and Hungarian -- this thread has attracted a couple of people in the past who like the idea, but haven't provided any substantial proof that the two share a common origin (like anything, it is always possible, but hasn't been demonstrated). I'm looking forward to your introduction, as Gandalf mentioned above 

[Gandash]

Uhh intorduction.. I am not good at that stuff. but I try. latter it's too late. .

You know the point is to find out who the Sumerians,Hungarians(magyars),Kassites etc.. truly were
not arguing on lingustic categorizations etc b.s..lol
Today lingustic experts can't even translate sumerian texts properly...

You comment this earlier:

„One thing I want to point out is that it is often considered prestigious to have a link with Sumer because of the fact that they developed “the first civilization” from the point of view of mainstream history.”

„However, we understand that the development of this civilization has a very dark undertone – it was directed by forces which did not have the best interests of the Sumerians (or any other humans) at heart, and the Sumerians were very likely the slaves of these forces – period.  Not a very positive heritage, in other words.”

Yes this is why Sumerian is very sensitive subject because they were the first..

Actually i dsiagree with you because I am not saying the Sumerians were saints but they were still the good guys compared to others they were the ones teaching and they eventually got kicked out / destroyed for exchange...

[Gandash]

Rob,

Of course Hungraian is related to Sumerian but lingusitcally hard to prove and the big mistake is trying to derive Hun from Sumerian because the Hungarian langauge already co-existed with Sumerian lanaguge.
That’s how old Hun lang is..
I have no idea how legit that Sorbone study is but it confirmes this…

A few interesting things:
Hun lanaguge is like artifically made it uses binary numerical system… therefore a hun person thinks and speaks on the basis of binary numerical system..
Hungarian lannagauge is based on mathematics and logic

Maybe this is why Huns had so many great inventors?, I think Teller Ede said that without Hun language he would have never made it further than an average university professor...

Anyway I think that Hungarian can only be the „second best” science language because Sumerian was „the best”.

Or probabaly both Alien languages lol...

[Rob]

Hi Gandash & everyone,

I’ve been distracted by other aspects of life (such as preparing for the next GFC) so apologies for not being here sooner.

Anyway, Shijing is correct in that my evidence is not mainstream & the other evidence i promised hasn’t been assembled yet due to other higher but less enjoyable priorities. But below is some brief written evidence:

“

Byzantine documents concerning the Hungarian prince Termatzu from Árpád's lineage assert that the oldest name of the Hungarians was Sabartoi Asphali, recalling their ancient Mesopotamian name Subar-tu and Sabir-ki, while Asphali was the Arab name of the Lower Zab river.1
Scythia, which early Hungarians called Hetmagyar ("Seven Magyars", of whom we speak furtherly) is recorded in the ancient legends of Persia, the Zend Avesta, under the name of "Haetumat", and located in Sakastan (Scythia).
One of the most valuable documents regarding their early history is the "Church History" by Zachariah the Rhetor, written in Assyrian language (Syriac Aramaic) in the sixth century c.e., and describes the Caucasus as the "Huns' lands", listing thirteen peoples: Abdel, Alan, Avar, Avgar, Bagrasir, Bulgar, Dirmar, Hephtalit, Khazar, Kulas, Kutargar, Sabir and Sirurgur.”

Source: http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Huns.htm

1.   If correct then from this we can assume that the Magyars were not Sumerians but rather neighbours, which therefore suggests many possible reasons for language similarities.... & the theories by  Mario Alinei suggest Magyar (Sabirs) lived close to Sumarians.

Anyway, irrespective of what I say or suspect all I want is for professionals to take the possibility of the antiquity of  Magyar seriously & do the appropriate research to determine the truth. Not rely on books that relied on books that relied on books from a politically motivated past. And in the process to be more holistic in their approach ie use different fields such as archaeology, rather than just relying on conventional linguistics alone. I don’t have the qualifications to argue with experts so all I can do is try to find evidence from semi or non-mainstream experts that believe the connection exists & present it to western experts to review. And maybe show that if I can understand some old words from other languages & show that its meaning/s r similar in Magyar then that can be a ‘heads-up’ for mainstream experts to review as well. Other than becoming qualified myself there isn’t much else I can or should do. My opinion, even if correct, cannot be officially proven by me.

My other concern is that since IMO no science is 100% understood or proven (except maths) that scientists therefore need to think outside the square rather than dismissing anything not satisfying existing rules of just 1 field which may in itself be wrong or partially inadequate. That is where the widely read & trained professionals of centuries past had an advantage over today's specialists. In the past a person may speak  50 languages, live in & learn many cultures, study several sciences, etc. Few people r like that today & so may not see links via just 1 field.

As a business analyst with qualifications & experience in IT, Commerce, nature/environment, law, economics, engineering, marketing, psychology, etc, I can view a problem from a broader perspective & see how systems r interconnected whereas specialists will have a rudimentary idea at best of other systems. The specialist however will be more advanced in their 1 field & can implement my solution in a technically superior manner than I can. Both roles r needed to arrive at the BEST outcome.
A generalist ‘finds’ the way while the specialist ‘implements’ the way.

The Tatárlaka written tablets pre-date Sumerian & Egyptian but can be partially interpreted with Hungarian Runic script. But that is also disputed by some.

I saw a you-tube of a group of Russian scientists that found 14,000 year old Hungarian Runic script in AXUM & LALIBELA Ethiopia. My understanding is that u cant carbon date carvings in stone (the Time Team from the UK would agree) so there r several possible reasons for inscribed runes to be younger than the 14,000 yrs old walls. Such as a Magyar merchant visited 1000 + yrs ago, or a delegation, etc etc. But if proven it would create absolute havoc for conventional historical knowledge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nqYB9yqWxnI

My complete lack of linguistic knowledge forces me to rely on common sense methods like sound + spelling + meaning correspondence.
I collect ancient coins, & some r written in a manner simple to pronounce in Magyar, but also meaningful in Magyar. Though I would expect experts to claim coincidence as usual. For eg:

KINGS OF Parthia.
•   Orodes     Orod = Mill; os = old or parent, etc depending on situation; es = and
•   Phraates   ("Frater" = “animal" I guess the double aa is a long a, which is how its pronounced in Magyar, like “Park”.)
•   Phraatakes   Animal + (teker = slew)+ (es=and) (e in Magyar is pronounced like an ‘a’ in English)
•   Artabanus    (arta = hurtful  & ban = noble)
•   Pacorus    “Pacor” is a Magyar surname
•   Volagases    bottom (bum)

Susa mint: Some of these coins were minted in Susa, which is also a female Magyar name.

 Mario Alinei states that the Etruscan and Magyar & ancient Greek languages are very closely related therefore 1 possibility is that the kings names were greek &/or latin inspired hence can be pronounced easily in Magyar as well as having possible similar meanings...  I’m not making any claims of a direct connection, but possibly some indirect connections.
Non-Magyar speakers cannot detect meaning nuances & therefore need Magyar experts to point out a ‘possible’ connection. Simple definitions of Magyar words are inadequate, like trying to teach a pacific islander 500 yrs ago what ice is - words & pictures describing ice will only go so far... And Magyar words can have many meanings & emotions based on situation as the list below illustrates somewhat. English is virtually devoid of this, so English-only speakers cant grasp this concept well unless taught the language AND culture by a Magyar.

ártáblázat   tariff

ártalmas   adverse

ártalmas   deleterious

ártalmas   destructive

ártalmas   deteriorative

ártalmas   harmful

ártalmas   hurtful

ártalmas   injurious

ártalmas   insalubrious

ártalmas   maleficent

ártalmas   malign

ártalmas   miasmal

ártalmas   miasmatic

ártalmas   mischievous

ártalmas   noxious

ártalmas   pernicious

ártalmas   pestilent

ártalmas   pestilential

ártalmas   poisonous

ártalmas   unwholesome

ártalmasság   destructiveness

ártalmasság   hurtfulness

ártalmasság   insalubrity

ártalmatlan   harmless

ártalmatlan   innocuous

ártalmatlan   inoffensive

ártalmatlan   unhurting

ártalmatlan   white

ártalmatlanít   make harmless

ártalmatlanul   inoffensively

ártalom   harm

ártalom   hurtfulness

ártalom   maleficence

ártány   barrow

ártartomány   range of prices

ártatlan   artless

ártatlan   blameless

ártatlan   guiltless

ártatlan   harmless

ártatlan   ingenuous

ártatlan   innocent

ártatlan   sinless

ártatlan   white

ártatlanság   artlessness

ártatlanság   innocence

ártatlanság   naivety

ártatlanság   naiveté

ártatlanul   ingenuously

ártatlanul   wrongly

-ban   in

-ban   inboard

-ban   inside

-ban   under

banális   banal

banális   commonplace

banális   quotidian

banális   stale

banális   trite

banalitás   banality

banalitás   triteness

banalitás   triviality

banán   banana

banándugó   pin

banánfürt   hand of bananas

bánásmód   deal

bánásmód   dealing

bánásmód   treatment

bánat   chagrin

bánat   discomfort

bánat   distress

bánat   grief

bánat   heartache

bánat   pits

bánat   rue

bánat   sore

bánat   sorrow

bánat   tribulation

bánat   woe

bánatos   dreary

bánatos   pained

bánatos   rueful

bánatos   sorrowful

bánatos   trist

bánatos   tristful

bánatos   woebegone

bánatos   woeful

bánatos   yellow

bánatosan   ruefully

bánatosan   sadly

bánatosan   woefully

bánatosság   dump

bánatosság   dumps

bánatosság   ruefulness

bánatosság   tristfulness


õs-   palaeo-

õs-   primal

õs-   prime

õs   ancestor

õs   forbear

õs   forebear

õs   forefather

õs   old man

õs   original

õs   parent

õs   primaeval

õs   pristine

õs   progenitor

õs   sire


Below shows how languages & cultures can intermix....

http://www.pr.com/press-release/37575

Tribe of Hungarian Origin Discovered in Africa
Anthropologists of the Geneva-based Africa Research Institute (ARI) discovered an unknown tribe in the Mid-African Democratic Republic of Congo. The tribe presumably originates from the Magyarabs living at the border of Egypt and Sudan since the 16th century.
Geneva, Switzerland, May 03, 2007 --(PR.com)-- The Africa Research Institute (ARI) in Geneva has been pursuing anthropological research since May 2005 in the north-western regions of the civil war stricken Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). The expedition led by Gabor Varga anthropologist discovered a tribe of possible Hungarian origin last May near a tiny village called Halitu. "The village is situated approximately 100 kilometres from Aba in the north-western region of the country. The tribe had lived in a completely secluded area and rarely moved out of the well protected village," said Dr. Varga.

The ARI researchers scrutinized the tribe's language, customs and culture for nine months and gained full cooperation of the tribe's elderly. The tribe at present has 573 members who call themselves "Madjari". According to the tribe's legend, their ancestors broke away from the "big family" of Madjarabs.

The Madjarab (meaning: Tribe of the Magyars) are a people living along the Nile River in Egypt and Sudan. They are of Hungarian ancestry, dating back to the late 16th century. According to the legend, Hungarian soldiers serving in the Ottoman army were fighting in southern Egypt. Some of them stayed and intermarried with the local Nubian women. Their leader, Ibrahim el-Magyar is highly respected amongst the Madjarabs even today.

Further research proved that the Madjari tribe in the DRC has actually preserved a lot more of its Hungarian culture and traditions than their relatives living in Egypt and the Sudan. People in the Madjari tribe still use words that have Hungarian sounding. Their ritual music recalls the original Hungarian themes and patterns. The ARI will publish its research findings following approval by the Board of Directors of the institute. The document will warn the public that the survival of this small group has been endangered by continuous tribal wars and the nearby oil exploration that completely devastates the environment today.

Below is a debate at another site.

“No, but there is a tiresome "word list matching." The truth is that given several large and complex languages of 60,000 words or so and given that the human mouth can only make a limited number of signs, you can "relate" ANY language to any other language as long as it has a sufficient number of words. You can probably relate Klingon to native tribal languages in India if you look hard enough.
Linguists look, instead, for root words, sentence structure, and other things. Word lists are considered "lame" by non-alternative sources. So the relationship of Hungarian to Finnish is a good link. The relationship of ancient Egyptian to Coptic is a good link.
The relationship of Sumerian to Hungarian is not, and the scripts, I'm afraid, aren't even very similar.”

I agree word matching alone is weak evidence but that doesn’t prove word matching can’t be a good starting point. And what r the odds of many words being unrelated despite spelling, sounding & meaning the same thing, irrespective of the qty of words in a language? As low as winning lottery. To me, if the meaning is the same then that is proof of some sort of connection. Next step would then be to assemble other sciences, archaeology, etc & if they also find connections then to me that is far more powerful proof than 1 science alone can ever match with the oft claimed ‘coincidence’ or ‘unknown’ or 'borrowed' excuses.

Anyway, I know my proposals r full of official holes but that is of little importance. My role is to draw attention to the issue by the west to make sure some things aren’t left behind or ignored accidentally.

All the best
Rob 

[Muxel]

What I understand from your word list, Rob, is that Hungarian calls things by their "quality", much like "spiritual" languages of this-and-that ancient tribe. E.g. while we have ten billion unnecessary words for "river" in English (goddammit), a hypothetical ancient spiritual language would have one, meaning "flow".

I can reduce your word list to this:
árta-          bad
-ban          within
banál-        banal
õs              "ori" as in origin (Orion)
bánat        woe

Then proceed to conjugate the hell outta them.

BTW when people say "Sumerian", are they referring to Sumerian-written-in-Sumerian-script, or Akkadian-written-in-Sumerian-script?

Also, I thought Sumerian was kinda like Chinese: the "logograms", agricultural slavery, Lizzies, loss of consonants.
(Hey, French shares the consonant loss thing too. Or maybe they just enjoy spelling that way.)

[Rob]

Hi Muxel,

yes, i hadnt quite thought of it that way, but yes Magyar does call things by their quality rather than by a sterile/neutral words so common in English. Anyám = "my mother", and is spoken with love, same with dad, sibling, etc. There is nothing like it in English - where the words r simple statements of fact not fact plus emotion.

And spelling is easy since the rules do not fluctuate, whereas for English u need a good memory since the rules apply only some of the time - probably due to the many language influences & inputs over the centuries. Whereas Magyar has kept all of its grammer rules which tends to make mockery of the common notion that Magyar borrowed many of its base & other words yet magically/coincidentally kept the rules intact. However that is for the experts to debate, not me. lol I am rather embarrassed to even mention propositions to experts, its feels almost disrespectful to them if i question their beliefs.


Anyway, a beginner will find Magyar harder to pronunce, compared to English. Magyar requires subtle yet precise tones & mouth control, whereas its relatively simple to pronounce most English words or letters. At least that is what i have noticed over the years.

If i remember correctly, the word Sumerian is just the name given by a French archaeologist or some such. Sumer is just a place name. The Sumerian's had a different name for themselves.. but i dont recall what that was. I'll have to search my doc's.

 

[Rob]

Hi All,

its been suggested i leave this forum since i havent read the suggested works in their entirety, so in due respect i acquiesce to this suggestion, & only return when the conditions have been met. I generally agree with anart since without rules or principles the site or any system would deteriorate.

So in parting i suggest that anyone interested in the question & antiquity of Magyar & its incredible influence on the world refer to Mario Alinei (Italian professor) & his 500+? page works on the Etruscan/Magyar relationship. His use of not only linguistics, but also archaeology etc will astound the mainstream historian.... infinitely better than i could ever conceivably accomplish... LOL 

All the best everyone & i wish you well in your endeavours to find the truth....

Bye

 

PS id be happy for anyone to contact me privately but i have no idea what the rules are so i'll leave it up to the moderators to provide my personal email address (ie the "tigereye' address) to whomever asks for it.