Quotes

[Denis]

  Just for the record, I am not the only one who thinks that being creative in the context of quotes means: make one of your own!

Does this make it true? Who are these 'other" people? What do we know of them? Are they authoritarians? Nazi? Pathologicals?

Since you are asking me, yes, this makes it true for me- there are personal truths out there, ya know? One of my guidelines in life is not tampering with other people's quotes, my choice is to leave them as they are. I will say it again, this is MY choice and I don't expect everyone to follow my example.
Who are these other people? They are the people with whom I interact with on an almost daily basis, some of them are my friends and some of them are my working colleagues. No, you know nothing about them, you don't know them personally as I do. And no, they are certainly NOT authoritarians, nazis or pathologicals (I forgive you, for you do not know what you are saying when you are suggesting something like that). All of them are good, honest, hard working people (living breathing feeling beings). Labels are for things, not for people- you know?

[Ana]

What is happening Denis?
Why is anyone going to feel not respected by the mere fact that others use their quotes as a starting point and make it theirs by adding their own understanding later on?
Why this urge to control?

I can write a quote, this quote may reflect my own internal state, the way I see the world or specific situations, it can contain some truth which can be shared by others and yet be expressed in different terms, or they can find gaps and fill them with truth if they know, what I write is not the word of a jealous and authoritarian god.

In another ground, a scientist develops a theory, other scientist may use it as a starting point because he sees it's validity and add his own discoveries, what's wrong with that?

[Shadowself]

Denis are those writings in your signature yours ? 

For me being creative when we talking in the context of quotes is being able to take quote for what is it and still be enough creative to shape that text into something else, to give it more of "yourself". So yes I do think that quoting someone should be done with the respect but if person understands that, than that person if is doing thing like bngenoh does that not from disrespectful position toward quotation author but with much respect and thankfulness for heaving that quote in the first place, which that person now can mold it into something else and still leave legacy untouched on its own original meaning. Predisposition for being creative in any sense is be able to think divergently. Meaning, be able to see multiple solutions to a problem/question. And those who use others quotations as their own, well the act it self says more on them than does the quote it self.  But that is just me, thank Universe for many different opinions on this mather since that says Universe is divergent it self 




And when I'm already here ...


"The human heart cries out for help; the human soul implores us for deliverance; but we do not heed their cries, for we neither hear nor understand. But the man who hears and understands we call mad, and flee from him."
- Khalil Gibran

[Perceval]

  Just for the record, I am not the only one who thinks that being creative in the context of quotes means: make one of your own!

Does this make it true? Who are these 'other" people? What do we know of them? Are they authoritarians? Nazi? Pathologicals?

Since you are asking me, yes, this makes it true for me- there are personal truths out there, ya know? One of my guidelines in life is not tampering with other people's quotes, my choice is to leave them as they are. I will say it again, this is MY choice and I don't expect everyone to follow my example.
Who are these other people? They are the people with whom I interact with on an almost daily basis, some of them are my friends and some of them are my working colleagues. No, you know nothing about them, you don't know them personally as I do. And no, they are certainly NOT authoritarians, nazis or pathologicals (I forgive you, for you do not know what you are saying when you are suggesting something like that). All of them are good, honest, hard working people (living breathing feeling beings). Labels are for things, not for people- you know?

Denis, I think you need to calm down a bit. The above comment by Daenerys was obviously made from the perspective of the "others" being, more or less, society at large, which, as we know, has been infected with pathological ways of thinking and feeling. No one is saying your friends are Nazis, because, as you say, no one here knows them. The point in all of this is that there is an opportunity here for you to consider the idea of where our societies' moral codes come from and whether or not we have adopted these moral codes as our own codes as if they really were our own unique codes.

[SeekinTruth]

I also think the Law of Three applies here as in anything. There COULD be situations where changing quotes is problematic. But in this context, there is no problem as I see it. FWIW.

[Denis]

Denis are those writings in your signature yours ? 

No, those writings in my signature are not "mine" and I never said that I invented them, nor does it say "me" on the end of each quote. You thought you got me there, did you now? 
IF you are interested, I can tell you exactly where they originate from- ask and you shall receive. I deliberately left out the origin/author of the quotes, in the event that someone shows interest in them- so far, only the forum member domwatts23 has asked where does the "Pay attention to your thoughts..." quote come from and so I answered to him. The quotes are unchanged and left as they are in their original meaning, FYI.

For me being creative when we talking in the context of quotes is being able to take quote for what is it and still be enough creative to shape that text into something else, to give it more of "yourself". So yes I do think that quoting someone should be done with the respect but if person understands that, than that person if is doing thing like bngenoh does that not from disrespectful position toward quotation author but with much respect and thankfulness for heaving that quote in the first place, which that person now can mold it into something else and still leave legacy untouched on its own original meaning. Predisposition for being creative in any sense is be able to think divergently. Meaning, be able to see multiple solutions to a problem/question. And those who use others quotations as their own, well the act it self says more on them than does the quote it self.  But that is just me, thank Universe for many different opinions on this mather since that says Universe is divergent it self 

That's perfectly fine, since you are not claiming this to be THE truth, it is simply your perspective. And perspective is a personal truth, right? Because they are personal truths, they are NOT Universal Truths and this means they CHANGE over time, unlike the universal truths.
This can mean that both your and my perspective is incorrect. I still believe that the author/s of the quote should be asked what do THEY think about their quotes being changed by other people, and are they fine with that. Has anyone yet asked Tolkien's descendants for THEIR opinion on changing quotes from LotR books to fit in the contemporary world? And the descendants of the author/s of the Celtic poem, not to mention countless others whose quotes have been modified and misrepresented without them knowing about it?

Denis, I think you need to calm down a bit. The above comment by Daenerys was obviously made from the perspective of the "others" being, more or less, society at large, which, as we know, has been infected with pathological ways of thinking and feeling. No one is saying your friends are Nazis, because, as you say, no one here knows them. The point in all of this is that there is an opportunity here for you to consider the idea of where our societies' moral codes come from and whether or not we have adopted these moral codes as our own codes as if they really were our own unique codes.

Hello Perceval,

thank you for pointing out what Daenerys meant with her comment. I wouldn't say that society at large cares what others are doing with anyone's quotes (not to mention all kinds of atrocities that are happening out there on a daily basis). I was talking about the small group of people that I know, who have their own opinions on this subject.

[anart]

That's perfectly fine, since you are not claiming this to be THE truth, it is simply your perspective. And perspective is a personal truth, right? Because they are personal truths, they are NOT Universal Truths and this means they CHANGE over time, unlike the universal truths.

The whole idea that there is such a thing as a 'personal truth' is nonsense.  Just use the word opinion, Denis.  It's more accurate.  Don't use the word truth for anything other than objective truth and you'll be much more close to the mark.  I realize that could be categorized as 'just semantics', but word usage is important because it reflects understanding.

Regarding your behavior in this thread, you seem to have missed the first part of Perceval's post - "Denis, I think you need to calm down a bit".

[Daenerys]

  Just for the record, I am not the only one who thinks that being creative in the context of quotes means: make one of your own! 

Does this make it true? Who are these 'other" people? What do we know of them? Are they authoritarians? Nazi? Pathologicals?

Since you are asking me, yes, this makes it true for me- there are personal truths out there, ya know? One of my guidelines in life is not tampering with other people's quotes, my choice is to leave them as they are. I will say it again, this is MY choice and I don't expect everyone to follow my example.
Who are these other people? They are the people with whom I interact with on an almost daily basis, some of them are my friends and some of them are my working colleagues. No, you know nothing about them, you don't know them personally as I do. And no, they are certainly NOT authoritarians, nazis or pathologicals (I forgive you, for you do not know what you are saying when you are suggesting something like that). All of them are good, honest, hard working people (living breathing feeling beings). Labels are for things, not for people- you know?

Denis, just wanted to verify that Percival nailed exactly what I was trying to say in this thread. I should have added ponerized to that list, as that is exactly what our world and everyone in it is until they have done much work on themselves. I think that this much emotion is evident of a sacred cow that needs to be put out to pasture. 

As far as "personal truth" goes, allow me to regale you with a quote, which reflects our pathocracy nicely. It is from Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass"

“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said. 
  Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you.
I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”   
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.   
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
    “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master      that’s all.”

    Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say

[bngenoh]

That's perfectly fine, since you are not claiming this to be THE truth, it is simply your perspective. And perspective is a personal truth, right? Because they are personal truths, they are NOT Universal Truths and this means they CHANGE over time, unlike the universal truths.
This can mean that both your and my perspective is incorrect. I still believe that the author/s of the quote should be asked what do THEY think about their quotes being changed by other people, and are they fine with that. Has anyone yet asked Tolkien's descendants for THEIR opinion on changing quotes from LotR books to fit in the contemporary world? And the descendants of the author/s of the Celtic poem, not to mention countless others whose quotes have been modified and misrepresented without them knowing about it?

Hi Denis,

Can you see the ridiculousness in the logic in what I put in bold above, the descendants of Tolkien opinions on the changing of his quotes are as valid as anyone's walking down the street, for the Celtic poem, are we supposed to track down everyone with a modicum of that bloodline, prostrate ourselves before them and ask "Oh descendants of some guy(s) who wrote this quote, can I change it to mean this?"

When I die, I couldn't care less if someone changes my words to reflect their understanding, because it shows that they would be putting my words in the context of their age. It would be great if they used my words to enlighten others as well, but that is up to the individual.

Were the mathematicians who developed Euclidean geometry supposed to some how ask Euclid for his permission to develop his ideas further, by the way "many of Euclid's results had been stated by earlier mathematicians."

[Perceval]

I wouldn't say that society at large cares what others are doing with anyone's quotes (not to mention all kinds of atrocities that are happening out there on a daily basis). I was talking about the small group of people that I know, who have their own opinions on this subject.

It seems to me that the generally accepted 'moral code' adhered to by Western society would agree with you that it is wrong to amend the quotes of others. It's in the same bracket as it's wrong to steal. It also seems to me that that is where you got 'your' idea from, and that you have adopted it as as aspect of your own 'sovereign' code. People do this all the time of course. Most people's entire moral codes are given to them, or more accurately, adopted by their unconscious, from parents peers and authority figures without them really being aware of it.

I think you're making an issue out of something pretty elementary Denis.

[Denis]

The whole idea that there is such a thing as a 'personal truth' is nonsense.  Just use the word opinion, Denis.  It's more accurate.  Don't use the word truth for anything other than objective truth and you'll be much more close to the mark.  I realize that could be categorized as 'just semantics', but word usage is important because it reflects understanding.

You are right about that- there IS only one truth, and it is objective, meaning: it applies to every one.

Regarding your behavior in this thread, you seem to have missed the first part of Perceval's post - "Denis, I think you need to calm down a bit".

Point taken.

are we supposed to track down everyone with a modicum of that bloodline, prostrate ourselves before them and ask "Oh descendants of some guy(s) who wrote this quote, can I change it to mean this?"

I never said that you should kneel before them, I only proposed that you (or anyone who changes other people's quotes) ask them for their opinion- preferably kindly and respectfully. Why would that be so hard to do?

When I die, I couldn't care less if someone changes my words to reflect their understanding, because it shows that they would be putting my words in the context of their age. It would be great if they used my words to enlighten others as well, but that is up to the individual.

Ok, this is fine with me. You do notice however that here you are speaking of yourself? What if the author's dying wish is that his/her work remains intact, unchanged? Would you honor his/her dying wish? Or would you just ignore it by saying "ah, what the heck, s/he won't mind, s/he's already dead anyway, I may as well change some words and add something of my own, there's no harm in that"?

Were the mathematicians who developed Euclidean geometry supposed to some how ask Euclid for his permission to develop his ideas further, by the way "many of Euclid's results had been stated by earlier mathematicians."

I think there is a big difference between upgrading mathematics and changing quotes to fit your understandings in your point in development. Of course, there IS a chance that what you are saying is valid.

I will take some time to think things through, before I post anything further in this thread b/c now I am somewhat shaken with this "changing other people's quotes business". I still feel that it is disrespectful towards the author's legacy. Perhaps it IS just another sacred cow of mine that needs to be put out to pasture, as Daenerys has mentioned.

[Daenerys]

I never said that you should kneel before them, I only proposed that you (or anyone who changes other people's quotes) ask them for their opinion- preferably kindly and respectfully. Why would that be so hard to do? 

Because many of these people are DEAD. If they are not DEAD, they may be famous and generally do not respond willy nilly to the public. Not to mention the fact, as has been stated, that if it is in the public, it is fair game. 

I think there is a big difference between upgrading mathematics and changing quotes to fit your understandings in your point in development.   

What is the difference that you perceive here?

It does not seem to me that there is any indication of a third force present anywhere in this. Black and white thinking.

[Patrick]

Thus play I in one person many people,
and none contented.

~William Shakespeare, Richard II

[Denis]

Ok, I thought through this "changing the quotes business" and I've come to conclusion. As long as the author/s of the quote/s are credited and their own words are left intact, then it is ok (it is not disrespectful) to change certain words and/or add more of them- I am aware that bngenoh has done exactly that.

Why did I react in the way I did before? B/c bngenoh's posts obviously triggered this program in me and another one of my 'sacred cows' has surfaced from my unconscious mind... I think.

This above all: to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man.

- William Shakespeare, "Hamlet"

[Perceval]

This above all: to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man.

Except of course, when we apply the 'law of three', which may call for the person that knows themselves to be false to another in order to pursue their aim.