Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill

bdw000

A Disturbance in the Force
This is not really a question, just a suggestion.

I am only briefly familiar with your material. But it seems to me that you might be interested in a book that was published in 2005 called CAESAR'S MESSIAH by Joseph Atwill. I have read many books about Christianity and the New Testament over the years, and all I can say is that this one seems to be on to something that the others miss.

Anyone interested in what REALLY started Christianity will probably (no way to know for sure of course) enjoy this book. Even if you disagree with the author's main interpretation of his evidence, you will more than likely be startled by that evidence.

The book is out of print and only available used:
http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Messiah-Conspiracy-Invent-Second/dp/1569754578/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253580308&sr=1-1

If you feel moved to check this out I would recommend doing so.

If you end up liking the book the author has more material at his website (it may be a bit hard to find in his forum). But that's ONLY if you really like the book a lot. He used to sell a pdf file of a second edition but that seems to not be available any more.
 
Re: the book Caesar's Messiah

bdw000 said:
I am only briefly familiar with your material.

Hi bdw000,

I noticed that this is your first post and I would like to welcome you to the forum. Also, I would like to suggest that you please write a little something about yourself, and how you came across this site in the Newbies Forum and Important Notices to All Forum Members section of the forum. All new-comers are advised to do so, just so we all get formally introduced.

There is also Tips and Advice for Newbies for you to check out!
Cheers~
 
Re: the book Caesar's Messiah

Hi bdw000 --

bdw000 said:
I am only briefly familiar with your material. But it seems to me that you might be interested in a book that was published in 2005 called CAESAR'S MESSIAH by Joseph Atwill. I have read many books about Christianity and the New Testament over the years, and all I can say is that this one seems to be on to something that the others miss.

After you have given yourself an introduction on the Newbies' thread, could you give us a brief synopsis of the book and why we might find it interesting? I followed your link to Amazon, but there is no real summary there. It could be that this is a very good book, but it would be nice to know a bit more so that people here can make an informed decision about trying to get ahold of it or not.
 
Re: the book Caesar's Messiah

I don't have the book, not sure if I'll purchase it just yet, but I have a few quotes from it.

Rome attempted not to replace the gods of its provinces but to absorb them. By the end of the first century, Rome had accumulated so many foreign gods that virtually every day of the year celebrated some divinity – (Caesar’s Messiah)

It appears that Rome had so many "gods", that they were trying to tie it all up in one nice little bow, so everyone would worship the same "God".

Vespasian is referred to…as “the divine Christ” and “Lord”…Vespasian was not only “Jesus,” or savior of Judea, but…he was also the “Christ,” a Greek word for the Messiah – Joseph Atwill (Caesar’s Messiah)

Vespasian was (ad 9–79), Roman emperor 69–79 and founder of the Flavian dynasty; Latin name Titus Flavius Vespasianus.

A Roman origin would explain why the bishop of Rome was later made the supreme pontiff of the church, and why Rome become its headquarters. It would explain how a Judean cult eventually became the state religion of the Roman Empire. A Roman origin would also explain why so many members of a Roman imperial family, the Flavians, were recorded as being among the first Christians – Joseph Atwill (Caesar’s Messiah)

Seems the "Flavians", were all quick to jump on the bandwagon. The question might be asked why would they? What did they have to gain? Observation only-Mithraism was an all male kind of religion from from what I see. Christianity kept women in their place, yet still included them.

Many writers of this era were not even aware of the existence of Judea. The Greek Historian Herodotus, painstakingly exact in his documentation of the nations and peoples of the known world, refers only to the Syrians of Palestine...when he describes the area – Joseph Atwill (Caesar’s Messiah)
 
I have Atwill's book and there are a couple things there that are interesting, but he fails to take a lot of other things into account. It's useful to read "Jesus was Caesar" by Francesco Carotta and "Et tu Judas, Then Fall Jesus" by Gary Courtney for the additional background that makes Atwill's shortcomings obvious.

For example, Courtney appears to be the first publishing on the topic in recent times and his little book is a tour de force of condensed Biblical Criticism. Christianity, in some form, came into being before the Flavians and probably was a combination of the worship of Attis, the Mythraic Mysteries, and the celebration of the passion of Julius Caesar.

Atwill tries to force the texts to fit the Flavians and gives some rather silly opinions of why they "did it." (To make fun of humanity and pull off a big joke, more or less.)

Still, as Courtney points out, there are signs of meddling with both Josephus and the gospel of Matthew which is what has Atwill going, but it is not entirely clear that it would be Josephus doing it. It seems more like a later editor.

Plus, Atwill doesn't seem to be aware that the first gospel to appear in the NT, Matthew, is not the first gospel written: Mark was the first one. So he launches his whole theory based on the fact that Matthew says this or that, and the assumption that because it appears first in the NT, it was written first.

So, nope, it's not the go-to book on the topic, Courtney and Carotta are much better.
 
I've read almost the entire Atwill book and all I can say is that the guy is one sick puppy.
 
Don Genaro said:
Laura said:
I've read almost the entire Atwill book and all I can say is that the guy is one sick puppy.

Here's hoping you have the time to elaborate :D

Listen to the show tomorrow. I just may cut loose and rant a bit.
 
Laura said:
Don Genaro said:
Laura said:
I've read almost the entire Atwill book and all I can say is that the guy is one sick puppy.

Here's hoping you have the time to elaborate :D

Listen to the show tomorrow. I just may cut loose and rant a bit.
Haha, take your time! Even if you have to make a two-part show! All week long I've had the feeling like "this is real big!" as if it would change things in a big way that I couldn't begin to imagine. Sadly, most people I mentioned it to didn't share my enthusiasm.

I had started Atwill's book but I've put it aside for now and am onto the Ancient City :)
 
Here is an interview with Joe Atwill about his book on Jan Irvin's show:
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdAJl-6bLTY

As it happens I stumbled on it accidentally today, while watching this recent interview with him (recorded 11 days ago):
_http://www.gnosticmedia.com/a-conversation-with-joe-atwill-mind-control-and-weaponized-anthropology-167/

I did not realice that this is actually the guy who wrote the book "Caesar's Messiah" until he briefly talked about it in the interview and I looked it up and remembered that name from the forum thread about Jesus and Caeasar... :halo:
 
Here is a documentary by Joseph Atwill on the subject... I have watched about 50 minutes of the just under 1 hr 30 mins documentary.

He doesn't focus on Julius Caesor.

_http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/caesars-messiah/
 
luke wilson said:
Here is a documentary by Joseph Atwill on the subject... I have watched about 50 minutes of the just under 1 hr 30 mins documentary.

He doesn't focus on Julius Caesor.

_http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/caesars-messiah/

I watched this today. I've already seen Carrota's documentary, although I have not yet made it to his book. Having found more resources I will be going through that shortly.

First and foremost I thought that he made a number of interesting connections. Someone was definitely doing something with the texts to build a connection, and a connection is evidently there. But here's the kicker. Why no mentions about Caesar?

Atwill zooms in on the Imperial Cult, even proposing that the Imperial cult was the institutional vehicle that became Christianity. He also notes that the Julian-Claudian dynasty were the progenitors of this trend of Emperors as Gods. After making the institutional case he jumps offs the Imperial Cult track, his work done.

Watching it with the benefit of knowledge from Carrotta's connections, I asked myself, 'Why Atwill?! Why ignore the most common connections?!' He then begins making comparisons to other mythological figures, like Mithras (obviously connected to Caesar as well) and begins talking about symbolism and allegory. If only for these reasons he should have all the pieces necessary to see the Caesar connection, but he ignores it again, returning to the Flavian tangent.

I say again, obviously there are some interesting connections, but 'good enough' is not right, and Atwill settles for good enough when the Jesus as Caesar connections, which are much stronger, stare him in the face. I can only assume he has done his research on the Emperors of Rome, the Imperial Cult, and the Church together, which again, combined with his enjoyment of allegory should lead him straight to the Caesar connection.

Up to this point I was a tad wary about his ignorance and missing of connections, but I still thought it interesting. His presumably unknowing omissions just put me on guard. It was the end of the documentary that especially disappointed/set me off.

He and his readers tried to turn the whole story against modern religious fundies of the day, preaching a progressive vision of enlightened gnosticism, of help people 'choose the beliefs best for them', and the worship of nature. Each of those claims has a time and place, and these attempt to slip these ideas in under the radar, at the end of a presumably successful documentary, appeared to me as very, very suspicious.

Alas I wasn't sitting down to watch it, but rather going about my labors and listening to it, so I do not know the identities or credentials of the 4 or 5 speakers there. Before recommending this to anyone I would definitely have to do some background research on these individuals. The female speaker in the veranda seemed odd as well.

Conclusion: I didn't agree with his conclusions, but it is evident that there is a connection with some of his work which has value in itself. It does merit research to explore the connections between the Flavians and the Imperial Cult, and I'm not sure how Christianity became dominated by Jewish themes (as opposed to the themes of others). But there is a definitely something suspicious going on with the presentation. I concur with Laura. Carrotta's work is better.
 
I just read Robert Price's excellent review of Atwill's book. (Gads, I just love Price!)

Here's the opening:

Joseph Atwill's, Caesar’s Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus

Ulysses Press, 2005

Reviewed by Robert M. Price

The controversial thesis of this book is that Christianity began as the opium of the Jewish people, mixed and prescribed for them by the crafty Flavian dynasty. Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian had had their fill of militant Zealotry and Sicariism. They could not bend the Jewish nationalists to their will even after a destructive war that leveled the temple of their God. No amount of torture could make Jewish prisoners deny their faith and call Caesar not only their salad but also their lord. And so Titus Caesar, with the help of his obedient lackey Josephus, devised a master deception whereby Jews should be seduced into worshipping Titus, divine son of the divine Vespasian, without knowing it, under the guise of a fictitious Jesus, divine son of a divine Father. The gospels were composed by Romans (and Roman stooges including defeated Zealot leader John of Gischala AKA John son of Zebedee) to catechize Jews into this new and false Judaism which, if they accepted it, should also lull them into a soporific pacifism convenient for Rome. The four canonical gospels and Josephus’ The Jewish War were designed and composed to be read together and so to reveal to the cognoscenti this secret origin and rationale for the Christian religion. Further, this Flavian Pentateuch, read thus intertextually, should disclose a series of cruel jokes and parodies of the very faith it presented for the consumption of the masses who read them literally. The Flavian aristocrats themselves would have gotten the jokes, especially the rich jest that the fools who fell for their scam religion were worshipping Titus without knowing it. In a cover blurb, Robert Eisenman (a sometime colleague of author Atwill, one hastens to add, on other endeavors) remarks, “If what Joseph Atwill is saying is only partially true, we are looking into the abyss.” And the abyss is looking back at us. But is it even partially true?

Eisenman’s interest in Atwill’s proposal is understandable. Eisenman, in his monumental work James the Brother of Jesus, was able to show, from an altogether new perspective, how thoroughly pro-Roman is New Testament faith. Compared with the religion of nationalistic Jewish Christianity it must have seemed the foulest betrayal, an overnight devolution of the faith of a messiah who stormed the temple, condemning its Roman lapdog rulers, into a religion advocating obedience to Caesar, paying him his denarius, and accepting Quisling tax collectors as brothers in the faith. And Atwill is attempting to explain how such a Gentile Christianity, seemingly a perverse parody of Jewish messianism, could have come about. But does Eisenman accept Atwill’s theory? His blurb sounds like an exercise in damning with faint praise: he doesn’t even commit himself to Atwill’s being part right. And one hopes he never does, since that would be tying his own raft to a leaden, sinking ship.

I will return presently to a handful of oddities that Atwill rightly points out, providing tasty food for further thought. But first I want to provide a broad sketch of the sense I think Atwill’s theory would make of New Testament phenomena, which is not to say it is the only theory that might account for these features. Picture a religious ethic of conspicuous compromise with the occupying authorities, a gospel that tells its believers not to resist any who confiscate their property, but to pay Roman taxes and to carry a legionary’s field pack twice the distance stipulated by Roman law. Imagine a story that blames not just Jews but implicitly nationalistic, messianic Jews for the destruction of their temple. A story that has the messiah predict that the kingdom will be taken from Jews and given to a more worthy nation. Keep in mind how the preacher of this sect befriends Jews who collaborate with Rome and eulogizes a Roman centurion for having faith unparalleled among Jews. He is declared innocent by Roman authorities but nonetheless is done in by Jewish rulers. Then think of how the predictions of the fall of Jerusalem a single generation later correspond so closely to Josephus’ account of the events, and furthermore, how Josephus even mentions Jesus as a righteous man and even as the messiah of prophetic prediction (though he himself had proclaimed Vespasian the proper object of such prophecy). When someone suggests that Christianity may have been a “safe,” denatured, Roman-domesticated, messianic Methadone to replace the real and dangerous messianic heroin of the Zealots, and that Josephus had something to do with it, it does not sound unreasonable on the face of it.

Now even this much is highly controversial, debatable, and necessarily so. But if we find this much of the premise beguiling, should we go the rest of the way with Atwill as our guide? After all, somewhat similar theories of a Roman origin of Christianity and of Jesus have been proposed by Abelard Reuchlin (whose notorious 1979 booklet The True Authorship of the New Testament strikingly anticipates Atwill’s at several points), Margaret Morrison (Jesus Augustus), Cliff Carrington (who also ascribes the gospels to the Flavians), and Stephan Hermann Huller (Marcus Agrippa, etc.). We might find that one of these alternative theories of Roman origins explains many of the same things Atwill’s does, and without the disadvantages.

Continue reading: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm
 
Back
Top Bottom