The Real World > Religion
What is God Generically & Actually...
Rob:
HI All,
what is god?
very simple (IMO).
The answer is split into two:
1. The concept or definition of a generic god.
2. What god is in reality (ie what 'brand' is god).
1. A generic definition:
Thiink of what a generic product is, like a car or breakfast cereal.
A brand of product is NOT a defintion of the product.
A 'car' is not defined as a Ford-like or BMW-like means of transport, etc, but simply a form of transport, that typically has 4 wheels, etc etc.
A breakfast cereal is not 'Kelloges' but a breakfast food made of cereal.
Same with God. God is not a Jewish entity, Christian etc, or an old man in the sky.
The generic definition of what a God would be (if real) is:
Something that is:
1. All knowing
2. All powerful
3. Omnipresent
4. All concepts, thoughts, etc
5. etc etc
AND .....ALL THAT EXISTS....
In other words the implication of the above is that for any entity to be classed as a GOD (as opposed to a demi god like Zeus) IT would have to be ALL THAT IS or EXISTS.
Only by being ALL THAT IS can an entity represent 100% of the power of the entire universe, encompass (ie, BE) everything, know everything, etc.
A God cannot be the most powerful being, because by definition/logic alone that would simply make god a demi-god if you will, but still not GOD. God has to BE everything, or not exist at all.
That is, there can be NO other entity or substance in existance other than GOD.
Not even ideas can be anything other than god 'expressed'.
the universe(s), soil, trees, u, me, angels, devils, maths, .. everything IS GOD.
Just like our mind creates its own universe in its dreams, the entire physical universe & all concepts are GOD EXPRESSED.
We can visualise this simply by thinking of God as a person alone in space dreaming of an infinate number of universes contining all sorts of beings etc.
And that person is floating in darkness & nothing exists in that darkness external to that person. The space doesnt even exist, its a void.
This visual is full of inaccuracies due to attempting to demonstrate ethereal-like reality but in a physical setting. Our physical relm, the universe, may not exist except as a dream/expression of God.
"But we can feel our envionment, we live, die, eat, see /feel time pass, etc..." Hmmm... Do we? Or do we merely 'think' these things occur or exist?
We perceive eveything via our senses, but we only detect a small fraction of what is actually around us, we do not see into thge atomic level, or beyond. Only science can do that.
The reality is that we do not see the universe as it is but simply as our minds paint them to be based on our senses, & even that on the most basic & obvious level. Ans so each person senses this universe in a slightly different wayt to the next person till you have 6 billion or so different views of life from 6 bill earthlings.
IMO time does not exist. Its passage is an illusion & the creation to teh destruction of this universe may occur in an instant in reality or however god want to view it.
You cannot touch time, even with science, you cannot measure it, alter it, catch it, etc. But we have clocks... All they represent r imprecise representations of the concept of time, by physically showing movement, similar to the sun's progression across the sky. Organic life is attuned to capture this procession maybe due to the frequncy of its atomic structure, of organic life forms. I need to consider this more to form any real oppinion though. :P Many insect species live only a few days or weeks, & so their concept of time may be more compressed than ours. Maybe they feel time passes just like ours, but then maybe the passage of the sun from day to night just once (a day to us) may seem like a yr to them.
who is right? Seems like all r correct from certain perspectives (if god is everything).
Problem is that people think organically/biologically & linearily (ie sequential time).
And as if everything has biological constraints or desires or needs.
Humans define most things (if not everything) based on their animal/biological/instintctive/genetic perceptions.
Hence why many hard core christians etc think god gets angry & vengeful toward sinners, as if god has something to loose if sinners exist, or as if god is so feeble that god cant ctl its emotions, or that it even has emotions, or that sin even exists. One has to laugh at their severe lack of thought or logic. All of which causes very limited perception & description of reality.
I am not saying there is a god, but that if there is one then we r all god.
ANd not just children of god as some new agers or more liberal christians etc think.
That again implies seperation or disconnection which means god is not 100% all that is.
Your little finger is as much a part of you than your much bigger leg, no more no less.
Any thought of being an offspring or child is a biologically based belief & so is impossible. (A side topic though is that nothing is impossible when it comes to god, so maybe god is ethereal & biological. Its almost like the chicken & egg question, but where both appear at the same time which is what is alluded to if nothing is impossible... so even 1 + 1 may = 3 & 4 & 5 etc)
Being carbon based life forms (yes i like Star Trek;)) people cant help but think in physical & biological forms & constraints.
2. What is the 'brand' of god?
If the above is true then god certainly cant only be Christain, Jewish, Muslim, etc etc, (god is all of those & none of those as we desire it).
There is no hell or heaven, other than what we, as god, create for our own amusement.
The implication of god being all that is means we, as god, are simply making up an infinate number of realities for our amusement... and maybe...just maybe.. to distract ourself from the knowledge that we r all that is, that we r alone, that I am alone in this void.....(a human fear)... for ever or an instant... ,maybe in that instant the entire history of the universe(s) play out & then we die. Maybe we r a momentary spark of life in the void.
Does god have emotions & fears, or any other human-like characteristics that religions seem to use ? Yes & no. If we can think it, then it exists as god expressed. But only because we think it so, not because it has to be true due to for eg an unalterable law of math or physics. Emotions, even time, seems real to humans but it exists only in the mind (& genes), not any physcial reality. Our eyes 'perceive' colours for example, not as they trully r, but as the mind can in a limited fashion interpret the light frequency that leaves the object & hits our eyes which then alters this input & sends an electrical pulse to the mind which then interprets the pulse...
When i receive dental treatment i receive gas to relax me. The pain is still registered & i notice it, but the pain is registered in my conscious mind slower than normal, less consciously, while most of the pain is not even conscious to me, only the most severe which i dont even mind. What is the reality then, the pain i feel or the actual signals my brain is receiving?
A side note is that i feel so relaxed that i actually drop much of my defensive personality aspects & start to hmm 'love'?? the world & everyone in it.. Its an interesting phenominon that also has potential implications about how we truly are or would be if our physical needs werent dominaing our constant waking thoughts, & urges & reactions.... even pain is a beautiful thing at that time.... everything is beautiful.... is this how the soul is?? If so its something to aspire to.... :halo:
Finally, I must admit that it is difficult to form any concrete definition if #1 is correct since any definition is a 'boundary' seperating the defined object from the rest of the universe. And since god is theoretically everything then there is no possible definition except in a concepotual way but not actual physcal way. Much like a throwing a bucket into an ocean of water & saying teh water in the bucket is different to the rest of the ocean. Physically it is different but it means nothing since its all just water. The same with the entire universe.. its made up of atoms, & sub-atomic particles that groups together to look like different objects but in reality you could disassemble any object & reasemble teh atoms into something completely different.
So i will finish by saying that god is everything, yet nothing, & when they say he is the alpha & omega they may just be onto something.... ;)
cheers
rob
:halo:
Oxajil:
--- Quote from: Rob on March 18, 2010, 12:32:21 PM ---"But we can feel our envionment, we live, die, eat, see /feel time pass, etc..." Hmmm... Do we? Or do we merely 'think' these things occur or exist?
We perceive eveything via our senses, but we only detect a small fraction of what is actually around us, we do not see into thge atomic level, or beyond. Only science can do that.
The reality is that we do not see the universe as it is but simply as our minds paint them to be based on our senses, & even that on the most basic & obvious level. Ans so each person senses this universe in a slightly different wayt to the next person till you have 6 billion or so different views of life from 6 bill earthlings.
--- End quote ---
Interesting. It reminds me of this:
--- Quote from: Ouspensky ---We say that space is infinite -- that it is illimitable in both scope and direction. (There may be some who postulate an outer limit to space, but what they propose as being outside that limit is an even greater difficulty than that of infinity.) Space, as we perceive it, has only three dimensions; length, width, and height. We define this condition as three independent directions -- that is, each measurement lies at right angles to the others simultaneously.
But, this is a contradiction. For, if space is infinite, then it must possess an infinite number of lines perpendicular and not parallel to one another.
Is infinity, then, a foolishness and does space necessarily have a limit? If it does have a limit, in what space does our space exist? But, if space does possess an infinite number of lines perpendicular to one another, then we must ask why we can only perceive three. If we exist in a condition of mind that perceives only three dimensions, this must mean that the properties of space are created -- or differentiated – by certain attributes within us. For some reason or another, the Whole is inaccessible to us.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Rob on March 18, 2010, 12:32:21 PM ---Many insect species live only a few days or weeks, & so their concept of time may be more compressed than ours. Maybe they feel time passes just like ours, but then maybe the passage of the sun from day to night just once (a day to us) may seem like a yr to them.
--- End quote ---
I think you will enjoy this part of the Wave: http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/wave6.htm
I find this interesting:
--- Quote ---For it (two-dimensional being) a new sun will rise every day. Yesterday's sun has gone and will never recur again. Tomorrow's sun does not yet exist.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Rob on March 18, 2010, 12:32:21 PM ---Hence why many hard core christians etc think god gets angry & vengeful toward sinners, as if god has something to loose if sinners exist, or as if god is so feeble that god cant ctl its emotions, or that it even has emotions, or that sin even exists. One has to laugh at their severe lack of thought or logic. All of which causes very limited perception & description of reality.
--- End quote ---
Yes they paint God as a human being (STS being) just like themselves.
--- Quote from: Rob on March 18, 2010, 12:32:21 PM ---I am not saying there is a god, but that if there is one then we r all god.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps it better to say that we are altogether God in some way (I think you're also saying that). That we are the names of God.
Or as the Quran says: Each creature is a word (kalima) of God.
I would never think that my mind is God or something like that. But that I am a piece of the whole, an incomplete world:
--- Quote from: Gurdjieff ---"All the matter of the world that surrounds us, the food that we eat, the water that we drink, the air that we breathe, the stones that our houses are built of, our own bodies—everything is permeated by all the matters that exist in the universe. There is no need to study or investigate the sun in order to discover the matter of the solar world: this matter exists in ourselves and is the result of the division of our atoms. In the same way we have in us the matter of all other worlds. Man is, in the full sense of the term, a 'miniature universe'; in him are all the matters of which the universe consists; the same forces, the same laws that govern the life of the universe, operate in him; therefore in studying man we can study the whole world, just as in studying the world we can study man.
"But a complete parallel between man and the world can only be drawn if we take 'man' in the full sense of the word, that is, a man whose inherent powers are developed. An undeveloped man, a man who has not completed the course of his evolution, cannot be taken as a complete picture or plan of the universe—he is an unfinished world. [p.102]
--- End quote ---
This part of the Wave would be also interesting: http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/wave12c.htm
--- Quote from: Rob on March 18, 2010, 12:32:21 PM ---ANd not just children of god as some new agers or more liberal christians etc think.
That again implies seperation or disconnection which means god is not 100% all that is.
Your little finger is as much a part of you than your much bigger leg, no more no less.
Any thought of being an offspring or child is a biologically based belief & so is impossible. (A side topic though is that nothing is impossible when it comes to god, so maybe god is ethereal & biological. Its almost like the chicken & egg question, but where both appear at the same time which is what is alluded to if nothing is impossible... so even 1 + 1 may = 3 & 4 & 5 etc)
Being carbon based life forms (yes i like Star Trek;)) people cant help but think in physical & biological forms & constraints.
--- End quote ---
I also think that many people understand something literal than trying to understand the symbolic meaning of it.
--- Quote from: Rob on March 18, 2010, 12:32:21 PM ---even pain is a beautiful thing at that time.... everything is beautiful.... is this how the soul is?? If so its something to aspire to.... :halo:
--- End quote ---
I think that's a nice observation. In some way, sometimes, everything is beautiful and makes sense, when you see all that is as it is.
But then these moments might get washed away whenever we hear about innocent deaths and wars etc. when the dark starts to shine right at us again.
--- Quote from: Rob on March 18, 2010, 12:32:21 PM ---So i will finish by saying that god is everything, yet nothing, & when they say he is the alpha & omega they may just be onto something.... ;)
--- End quote ---
I also think that. Laura once wrote something that made so much sense (I can't seem to find the part!).
When reading her material I started to understand God so much better, the Divine Cosmic Mind. (I think)
My experiences with DCM have always been positive. Without DCM my life would have made little sense and much more difficult. Whomever I'm praying to might exist or not. But the results are helpful and for that I am grateful, every day.
This quote by Al Arabi really hit the nail on the head on how I experience Him/Her:
--- Quote ---He who knows himself knows his Lord. This Lord is not the impersonal self, nor is it the God of dogmatic definitions, self-subsisting without relation to me, without being experienced by me. He is the he who knows himself through myself, that is, in the knowledge that I have of him, because it is the knowledge that he has of me. . .
- Ibn al-'Arabi (1165 - 1240)
--- End quote ---
obyvatel:
Hi Rob,
Your thoughts are in line with the concept of God in contemplative esoteric traditions like esoteric Christianity (as per Mouravieff and Gurdjieff), Sufism, Hinduism etc. You may want to check out
http://paleochristianity.org/documents/FOTCM_Statement_of_Principles.pdf
for some more information on this topic.
Rob:
Hi Oxajil,
thanks for having a read & replying. Tis appreciated & u presented interesting points to consider. :)
hmm, i try not to get into too much technical detail since that is a potentially infinitely complex matter & requires far more science knowledge than i have. Hence why i stick to 'principles' which can allow conceptual understanding of something without knowing how it actually works on a technical/physical level. I may refer to quantum physics etc as clues but that's about it. :cry:
I'm up to reading Wave 4 i think. :) Which i must say i have seen similar reports over the last 20ish yrs of my seeking the 'truth' so to speak in the new age world. Ptah comes to mind. I have noticed that many prophesies have failed to occur which does not discount the validity of the messages but leaves doubt & greater caution on my part at least. No famous ones have come to pass that i know of but i dont leep track of them any more. Nostrasdamous may be an exception. Anyway, back to this topic...
Yes indeed, i meant Alltogether, ie, there is simply 1 being or energy that exists, which coaleses into things like planets, people, thoughts, etc, but is still just an ocean of energy.
--- Quote ---I would never think that my mind is God or something like that. But that I am a piece of the whole, an incomplete world:
--- End quote ---
I know what you mean, i would never assume to 'consciously' have infinte power & knowledge etc. That may be delusional. ;)
But then again we may simply have that ability turned off by our 'higher' self.
To be strictly accurate (IMO) i dont think we can even say we r a 'piece' or part of anything, any more than saying my finger is a piece of me. I know what you mean though. ;)
It IS me. Its not a 'part' of me. The term 'finger' is an attempt at roughly defining a 'concept' as opposed to defining reality since no where does a dictionary say a finger is X mm long for eg. A car is a concept, Red is a concept, etc. Nothing can be defined exactly since we do not have the scientific knowledge to measure things down to sub-atomic level to definitaely state something is xyz size. But even then NO measurement can ever be 100%. 1mm is only a rough guide. Colour cannot be defined by machines let alone humans.
The finger does exist until you cut it off the hand & space appears between the hand & the finger. Until then there is no such thing as a finger.
I would argue that even then it is still connected energetically, invisibly. Afterall, take 100ml of water from a lake & its still water, nothing has changed to make it different to the lake water other than mere 'position'..
But overall, if everything is made out of energy then definitions r meaningless in reality. But they r necessary to function in our modern & deliberately 'limited' society, not that its a conspiracy, its just a natural biological reaction.
The difficulty in defining god beyond the simple concept & implications of 'the be all & end all' is that definitions r doomed to be inaccurate.
There is in reality nothing to define when it is ALL god.
What we see as cars n plans n people are in reality just a mass of energy assembled in that form (IMO).
And even that i suspect is a poor & inaccurate description. We assume energy exists, but does it? We would have to define energy, dark matter, etc. I suspect true matter (or should i say reality) is not as big & clumsy as atoms or even sub-atomic particles, but something completely different, not even spacially defined.
To even assume that there r building blocks immediately limits what reality might actually be.
For illustration, visualise an infinately large & solid block of glass (ignore that its supposeldy made up of atoms) that represents the universe.
To the naked eye the glass is solid, flawless, infinate, an ocean of uninterrupted matter...
And within that glass images form/coalesce into planets, grass, people, time, etc. (Similar to Superman in the glass-like cage in space).
The images think they r real & things occur according to the laws of physics.
But its all simply images, not real in a physical sense, yet real in A sense.
This could be a rough concept of reality.
Remember, the illusiuon is that there is 'seperation' between objects, even at atomic level.
That cannot be if god is all that is (the void cannot exist as well as god).
Just like our dreams seem real at the time, so does our waking world seem real.
How can there be a 'void' between 2 objects? The ocean is still an ocean even if ice cubes form in it & we can only see the ice cubes since our eyesight is not attuned to the ocean....
Is a dream or picture in our mind composed of energy? It is constructed by energy, but does the picture exist? Do atoms form the mental picture or something far more infintesimally small or as above there is no 'bits' only a whole, all that is.???.
Basically i suspect nothing is as it seems.
--- Quote ---But then these moments might get washed away whenever we hear about innocent deaths and wars etc. when the dark starts to shine right at us again.
--- End quote ---
I agree, but that is because of our biological response to pain inflicted on others.
I suspect there is no such thing as morality or emotion or pain since it cant be defined precisely.
An example of morality not existing is that one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. Who is correct? Its possible both r correct or neither. To know the truth requires infinite knowledge to determine ALL the facts not just the most obvious ones that humans can destect, plus the imense wisdom to apply the logic & intent of the universe..
No.. there is no good & evil, fat & thin, up & down, etc. These r again mere artificial concepts & nothing that can be proven in any way, shape or form.
They opnly exist relative to somthing else. eg, something is fat only when compared to a thinner object, but thin when compared to a fatter object. Well, how can an object be fat & thin at the same time?? It cant. Hence adjectives do not exist in reality.
Pain/emotion is merely a biological constrcut of the mind in reaction to stimuli received by sensors in the body.
Under gas i felt pain but did not defend against it, just accepted it on some deep level such that pain was ok & not to be avoided but experienced just like joy. Hard to explain. Pain & joy in essence were the same thing. Just higher powered signals to the brain.
phew.. my head hurts.. How do i turn off that illusion.. :lol:
PS I became ok with the world no matter what happens ever since i realised:
1) the truth sets us free, so i seek the truth no matter how inconvenient the answer
2) in the end nothing really matters since we r altogether god
All the best..
obyvatel:
--- Quote from: Rob on March 20, 2010, 06:19:39 AM ---I suspect there is no such thing as morality or emotion or pain since it cant be defined precisely.
An example of morality not existing is that one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. Who is correct? Its possible both r correct or neither. To know the truth requires infinite knowledge to determine ALL the facts not just the most obvious ones that humans can destect, plus the imense wisdom to apply the logic & intent of the universe..
--- End quote ---
There is morality and there is conscience. Morality is subjective but conscience is objective
--- Quote from: Rob on March 20, 2010, 06:19:39 AM ---No.. there is no good & evil, fat & thin, up & down, etc. These r again mere artificial concepts & nothing that can be proven in any way, shape or form.
--- End quote ---
There is no good and evil from the perspective of God. We are created beings - parts of God as Oxajil wrote. Confusing the perspective of God with the perspective of a created being is rife with problems. At our level of existence, discernment and choice seem to be the main lessons (rather than finding proof) and these are related to a combined function of the emotion and intellect.
--- Quote from: Rob on March 20, 2010, 06:19:39 AM ---Pain/emotion is merely a biological constrcut of the mind in reaction to stimuli received by sensors in the body.
Under gas i felt pain but did not defend against it, just accepted it on some deep level such that pain was ok & not to be avoided but experienced just like joy. Hard to explain. Pain & joy in essence were the same thing. Just higher powered signals to the brain.
--- End quote ---
.
Emotion and pain are multilevel in nature (I mean multidimensional in the sense used by Dr Dabrowski - there is some material in the forum regarding his work). There is physical pain for one's own body at one level and there is emotional pain at the sufferings and injustice towards others at another. They may both translate to high powered signals to the brain but have different implications.
The statement of principles of the FOTCM has a very erudite and concise treatment of the topics in question here. Rob, if you are looking to broaden your horizons on this, it may be beneficial to read that document imo.
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