"Sluggish" Liver issues.

Gimpy

The Living Force
Over the weekend I made a lamb tagine that appears to be biting me back. :( I did cut off a lot of fat, but left some for flavor.

Long story short, I had my gallbladder out many years ago due to having 'sticky bile' problems. Usually taking enzymes keeps any bad reactions under control, but I forgot to take them this time, and am really truly regretting it now.

It appears my liver is dumping all manner of foulness into my system from having eaten too much fat at one time, and its made me quite ill over the last couple days. There's no fever, no serious pain, just off and on nausea, and staying near the bathroom at all times. The upper right area of my body feels 'squeezed' when I eat anything now, and I'm wondering what I should do to help support my liver through this?

My rice protein powder does have l-glutamine and nac in it, and I do take a supplement that has more. I don't know if I should keep taking my fish oil caps while this is happening, or what else I can do? I've just been letting things take their course for the most part and making sure I take enzymes with every meal, and drinking lots of filtered water.

Other symptoms that cropped up right away: a rash on my arms and face, mild abdominal pain, and general malaise.

Its not a good way to remember to take enzymes, but I'm not likely to forget them now. :-[ I've not found much online on how to deal with a sluggish or congested liver, does anyone have any thoughts on what else I can do?

Much thanks in advance, as I'm still a bit stuck near the bathroom yet and will have to check in sporadically today. :-[ :-[ :-[
 
Do you take ox-bile regularly with every meal? You should. Because you need fats and a lot of them, but you need to be able to digest them.

First thing I would do if I was in this situation is take some ox-bile and enzymes. Then, I would wait a bit and take a teaspoon of pure DMSO in a glass of water to reduce the inflammation of the ducts etc. Then I would follow with some milk of magnesia to get things moving out.

This is a miserable condition to be in and you don't really know if it is the fat or the spices in the tagine. Did you add any sugar or other sweeteners to it?

ADDED: Psyche is out at present, but when she returns, she can add some tips. She deals with the sluggish liver too as does Andromeda. They are both absolutely faithful in taking their enzymes not just with meals, but in between! And they eat plenty of good fats. But they both have problems with the tagine because they can't tolerate the onions and garlic.
 
Did you add any sugar or other sweeteners to it?

I cut out the brown sugar and used five dried apricots, and an apple instead of raisins. It did call for apple juice, and I used apple cider instead. I did use a whole lemon sliced.

I love garlic and onions but didn't use a whole bunch in the recipe, but it was there. When I make veggies they are dressed in olive oil, ghee, and garlic w/salt and pepper.

My 'super enzymes' include ox bile. :)



And yeah, its a kinda yucky experience I'm not wanting to repeat, though I have a 'better out than in' attitude now that its happening. ;)
 
Hi Gimpy....I had something similar happen to me (it appears to be on and off for years, although I still have my gall bladder) recently when I started eating a larger amount of buckwheat pancakes (cooked in ghee)...and a large amount of olive oil.
I did find (but am unable to find again) a website suggesting that the real reason for gall stones (and the exact same problems after the gall bladder is removed) is inflammation of the gut/bile duct caused by a food allergy (or as other threads on this section show, stress, toxins [metals], candida, parasites etc)....
So my understanding (and not being medically trained this could be completely incorrect) is that nothing can escape the bile duct if its inflamed, thus backing up and causing more inflammation (blocking its self further) and inflaming the liver.

What I did was the following:
First I noticed that vitamin C (1000mg) reduced the pain considerably....apparently vitamin C helps dissolve the cholesterol in the stones/bile.

I'd done a colon cleanse (4 capsules of activated charcoal, 1 capsule of ginger, 1 capsule slippery elm, 1 milk thistle, pro biotics, and 4 table spoons of psylum husk and hour before breakfast) some days before to make sure everything was clear (making sure to take vitamin C and magnesium and plenty of water to make sure nothing go stuck)....
This may be unnecessary, but thought I'd mention it...

What seemed to finally sort it out was taking 2 capsules of slippery elm (to calm the guts)..DMSO may have the same calming effect, 2000mg of vitamin C, 400mg of magnesium (it relaxes/opens the bile duct), zinc (can't remember the exact quantity but double the EU RDA, good for calming/healing external skin problems so figured it'd work on the intestine), 2 milk thistle capsules (good for the liver), 2 flaxseed oil capsules and 6 fish oil capsules.....all just before breakfast.
I then had my pancakes (highly fatty food - although I'm not sure this is a good idea for you) and twenty minutes later (and a little massaging of my right side) I had the sensation of everything unblocking the pressure/pain suddenly being relieved.

This is only what worked for me.....it was a bit of a supprise and I don't have much collective data to back it up (only what each thing I took does individually).
I figure what happened was I relaxed the inflammation enough that the pressure produced from eating the fatty food (plus right side abdominal massarge) flushed the bile duct of the blockage.
Beware that the magnesium and vitamin C and flaxseed oil in large doses can cause a laxative effect.

I will be interested to know what you find out because my girlfriend seems to be suffering from this (although she's not had her gall bladder out) at the moment.
 
Then I would follow with some milk of magnesia to get things moving out.

First I noticed that vitamin C (1000mg) reduced the pain considerably....apparently vitamin C helps dissolve the cholesterol in the stones/bile.

I am just thinking loud here , correct me if i am wrong . Wouldn't larger (than usual) amount of Vitamin C instead of milk of magnesia be actually more beneficial ? I noticed that if I overdose (oraly) Vit C it acts very laxative , so maybe it could work as a stuff that help to move things out and still gives a decent intake of Vit C , not mentioning that acidizing colon helps to fight candida. Does it make sense ? :huh:
 
Hi Gimpy. Hope you feel better soon. I think Laura and RedFox gave some good feedback. Psyche will be able to add more. Hopefully that should take care of the immediate/short term problem.

I've fallen behind in keeping up with the diet and health threads a bit, but you probably keep up pretty well, so there's lots of data for you, and the sharing of experiences by members is always a great help. Like Laura and the Chateau team have so much varied experience with varied problems that they've narrowed down what works for whom in what circumstance, etc. So utilize these resources all you can.

For a longer term option, consider reading Hulda Clark's books. She has some great helpful info on many things including liver/bile duct/gallstone problems. A brief summary: she says that gallstones actually form in the liver bile ducts -- thousands of them!! -- and not in the gallbladder She says over the years of testing patients as a naturopath, she never found anyone who did NOT have gallstones, no matter how young or old. The older you are, the more you'll tend to have -- up to 3000 or more. She has a liver cleanse program that flushes out hundreds of stones each time you do it. BUT it MUST be done after killing any possible parasites in the liver. She says you may have the worst night of your life and get few if any stones out if you try to cleanse your liver with live parasites in them.

So, you'd have to do an herbal parasite program and/or zap. You can just use the zapper because the current reaches well into the liver and will kill any parasites. She does also recommend to do some kidney cleanses and have any dental work needed done, particularly removing amalgams and other heavy metals from the mouth for best results, but it's not ABSOLUTELY necessary. She just says it's better to have well functioning kidneys and urinary system to efficiently remove any undesirable substances incidentally absorbed from the intestines as the bile is being excreted and not put a heavy load with a toxic mouth and burden the liver immediately after cleansing.

The basic recipe / program is: (AFTER KILLING PARASITES) the day you will do the liver cleanse, you eat a non-fat breakfast and lunch, e.g. fruits, steamed veggies, non-gluten cereal etc (no butter or oils) this allows the bile to build up and develop pressure to push out more stones. You don't eat anything or drink after 2PM or you could feel quite ill. You need about two largish pink grapefruits -- enough to make about 3/4 of a cup of juice, 1/2 cup olive oil, and 4 tablespoons of Epsom salts. Around 2PM mix 4 tbs. of Epsom salts in 3 cups of water in a jar. This makes 4 servings of 3/4 cup each. Put it in the fridge to get cold for taste and convenience (unless you prefer to drink it at room temperature).

At 6PM drink the one serving (3/4 cup) of Epsom salts. You can add 1/8 tsp vitamin C powder to improve taste. You may also drink a mouthful or two of water afterwards or rinse your mouth. If you refrigerate the grapefruit and/or olive oil get them out to warm up. At 8PM drink another 3/4 cup of Epsom salts. Get any bedtime chores done as the timing is critical for success (don't be more than 5 to 10 minutes late). Between 9:30 and 9:45PM pour 1/2 cup (measured) olive oil into a pint jar with lid. Squeeze the grapefruit by hand to get 3/4 (measuring) cup (you may add some lemonade to top it up). You can remove any pulp with a fork or I squeeze it through a strainer. Add it to the olive oil and close the lid tightly. Shake hard until watery (only fresh squeezed grapefruit juice does this). Visit the bathroom one or more times as needed.

At 10PM drink the olive oil-grapefruit juice mixture. You can use a large straw to help drink it. She says to take 4 L-Ornithine (amino acid) capsules to be sure you can sleep (8 if you already suffer from insomnia). Or you can take whatever you may be taking for good night sleep that has work for you (GABA, 5-HTP, melatonin, etc. at the right dosages and time for best night sleep). Drink it down within 5 minutes (15 min. max for very old or weak people). Lie down IMMEDIATELY. The sooner, the more stones you'll get out. Be ready for bed ahead of time. Lie on your back with your head up high on a pillow. Try to think about what's happening in the liver. Keep as perfectly still as possible for at least 20 minutes. You may feel a train of stones traveling along the bile ducts like marbles. There's no pain or discomfort because the bile ducts are open from the Epsom salts. Go to sleep, as you may fail to get stones out if you don't.

Next morning, upon waking, take your 3rd dose of 3/4 cup Epsom salts. If you have indigestion or nausea, wait until it's gone before drinking the Epsom salts. You may go back to bed. Don't drink this before 6AM. Two hours later, take your 4th and last dose of Epsom salts. You may go back to bed. After 2 more hours, you may eat. Start out with fruit juice. Half hour later eat fruit. One hour later you may eat regular food but keep it light. By supper you should feel recovered.

Expect diarrhea in the morning lasting at least half the day. It will be mainly liquid, could be clear water with gallstones. The stones will float and though there may be different colors (tan, red, etc) look for the pea green ones as these are surely gallstones coated with bile. You can use a flashlight if need be and count them. You may get 200 to 300 on a good cleanse. There may be white and tan "chaff" too floating which is cholesterol crystals.

I've done this several time over the last 10 to 15 years, as well as my family members and several friends. She says that cleansing the liver bile ducts is one of the most powerful procedures to improve health. It greatly improves digestion, immune system, most allergies should clear up, arthritis, bursitis, joint pains, upper back pains all clear up. And after you get out 2000 or so they tend to clear up permanently. You can do the liver cleanse with 2 to 3 week breaks in between until nothing else comes out. This gives time to recover. You may feel tired the next day or two after a cleanse. As the bile ducts are cleared you produce more bile, the right amount. When the ducts are choked up with stones, not only does not enough bile get pumped into the intestines, your body start producing less bile to compensate for the backed up tubing. This obviously effects digestion of fats (and protein if memory serves).

By the way Gimpy, as I've written before, my mother was diagnosed with having MS or MS like symptoms in 1996 -- couldn't get a definite answer. But she was deteriorating quickly within months of the symptoms starting. She had very poor control over one leg, etc. She zapped with the first zapper I built and did Hulda Clarks herbal parasite program -- black walnut hull, wormwood (Artemisia), and cloves -- after I got and read The Cure for All Diseases and decided to try her recommendations. And in a couple of weeks whatever it was stopped, reversed and disappeared. Given, it was quite early in the disease process, but my mother didn't do anything else advised in the book for MS and did her first liver cleanse several years later, but remained on the maintenance parasite program (once a week) and zapped 1 or 2 times a week. She did have other health problems later on but she had bad diet, habits, high stress, has taken lots of prescription drugs, etc. Anyway, the MS-like thing that was progressing at an alarming rate, did stop and reverse quickly.

I gotta go now, but I'll also post an herbal recipe for general liver function support later.
 
I've tried zappers and really haven't noted any significant improvement with them. As Redfox said above, it's likely to be inflammation. And Drygol is onto something with taking a titrated dose of vitamin C. I just don't want Gimpy doing anything harsh with her condition.
 
Ok, yeah, I was in a rush when I posted before, took longer than I expected. I do agree with you Laura about being careful with a liver cleanse. But if there's enough of an improvement in overall health, it may be something to keep in mind for the long term. As far as zappers go, I've seen good results in a lot of cases (with both ones I built and bought). I wonder why you haven't seen anything significant with them. The current does NOT reach deep into intestines/bowel content, eyeballs, or testicles (the current tends to "go around the walls" of these, so to speak, rather than completely through them because frequency is too high for these). But I'm also wondering if the zappers you've used are working properly.

I've gotten results such as when my father could not urinate due to enlarged prostate a few years ago, they put a catheter in that stays for up to about a week. He was running a fever when he had the catheter. It happened a couple of times over a couple of weeks. He would zap and I'd check his fever about 10 minutes after finishing and it would be normal temp. He did have to do it a few times a day to keep the fever down.

It definitely is not something that would improve inflammation that is not directly cause by infection by some organism. It just kills infectious organisms wherever the current from the 9 volt battery reaches. I've gotten similar results with several people with colloidal silver with cold-like/flu-like symptoms -- again both homemade and bought -- and again within 1/2 hour to 45 min. the fever is gone. With the colloidal silver it usually does not come back, but it's still good to take a couple of more doses later same day/next day.

The toxicity/inflammation connection is definitely key to chronic problems. Clark herself says that toxicity is what allows parasites / pathogenic organisms to cause all sorts of health problems to begin with. In a healthy, non-toxic person with optimal or near optimal immune function, no serious long term problem can develop from the same infections. And she stresses that people will NOT get well if they do not detox and just kill invaders, because it's easy to get reinfected. Plus it may not even be necessary to get infected from outside, but organisms already inside us may become pathogenic in a toxic / unhealthy environment.

I also think that health problems may have different causes (including not strictly or solely physical ones) that produce the same or very similar symptoms. Also, I suspect that the whole linear causation idea might not capture the full complexity of health and well being, sort of like classic and quantum physics. Like a high school level (especially Advance Placement which is equivalent to first college courses) physics class can explain many things like the physics of billiard balls colliding, and their course, or the internal combustion engine, or wheel base dimensions, suspension system, etc and handling characteristics of a car or basic principals of photography (taking into account some related chemistry as well) but not very complex things. With health, I think its very similar. Very obvious physical assaults will show a very obvious linear causation, for a really obvious example, a hammer or such hitting any part of the body. But health and well being is very complex, and in less obvious situations, there are many non-linear causal factors, I suspect "acausal" factors -- sort of things and patterns that "like" to or tend to happen together making it hard to say exactly which is the cause and which the effect, all sort of positive and negative feedback loops and synergistic things. But I think we all have enough data, including personal experiences, that point to the center piece of any long term good health being tied to diet/nutrition/detoxing/avoiding toxins and so on AND stress management / emotional healing, etc.

I also concur with taking vitamin C. I would be very likely to help.

Anyway, I can find the book and type the ingredients of the herbal preparation/tea just for supporting better liver functioning in general tomorrow, if there's interest for it as it's getting kind of late here.
 
Hi Gimpy, I'm sorry to hear about this problem. I have a super sluggish liver and even though I love lamb tagine, it is out of the question for me. I'm intolerant to most spices :cry:

I second what other members have said. My favorite supplements for this kind of problems are milk thistle, vitamin C, ox bile, digestive enzymes, and phosphatidylcholine. When I have bad discomforts, I will usually go in a semi fasting, either with shakes or vegetables and take lots of vitamin C.

FWIW, vitamin C is needed to convert cholesterol to bile acids and phosphatidylcholine is one of the components of bile.
 
Gimpy said:
My 'super enzymes' include ox bile. :)

Just make sure it is enough. Around 1500mg a day can make a difference (usually 1 capsule 3 times a day).

:flowers:
 
Gimpy said:
Other symptoms that cropped up right away: a rash on my arms and face, mild abdominal pain, and general malaise.

Its not a good way to remember to take enzymes, but I'm not likely to forget them now. :-[ I've not found much online on how to deal with a sluggish or congested liver, does anyone have any thoughts on what else I can do?

Much thanks in advance, as I'm still a bit stuck near the bathroom yet and will have to check in sporadically today. :-[ :-[ :-[

Another important thing is to eliminate food allergies, so I was wondering if you had a chance to do the elimination diet (the ultra simple diet) to detect food intolerances? Here is an updated version FWIW:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13241.msg153781#msg153781
 
Yes, Gimpy, doing the elimination diet in order to find out what foods you react to is SUPER important. There are some basic categories, but everyone is different and you'll need to find out your safe food list and stick to it for a couple of years to get stabilized.
 
Psyche said:
Hi Gimpy, I'm sorry to hear about this problem. I have a super sluggish liver and even though I love lamb tagine, it is out of the question for me. I'm intolerant to most spices :cry:

I second what other members have said. My favorite supplements for this kind of problems are milk thistle, vitamin C, ox bile, digestive enzymes, and phosphatidylcholine. When I have bad discomforts, I will usually go in a semi fasting, either with shakes or vegetables and take lots of vitamin C.

FWIW, vitamin C is needed to convert cholesterol to bile acids and phosphatidylcholine is one of the components of bile.

The only spices I'm avoiding right now are those in the nightshade family. I'm going a bit light on eating for now but did have some ground beef for dinner, with broccoli. (And enzymes.) ;) Spices have never given me a tough time as a rule. Fresh herbs can, but dried don't bother me for some reason.

Today was recovering some energy and drinking a lot to replenish fluids. Tomorrow will be the start of the vit C, milk thistle, and the phosphatidylcholine. I have to be very careful with milk thistle, as I'm allergic to goldenrod and I think they are in the same family. (I'll look it up again before I take any just to be sure.) Goldenrod, Cottonwood fluff, and other pollens are serious allergens, and sometimes all I can do is hide in the house to stay out of it. Even so, exposure from the dog can flatten me for a whole day. (Like today.)

I'm waiting for a Needs shipment with Wakunaga garlic and DMSO. (This is my second attempt at ordering DMSO through Needs. They insist I never ordered the first time, but I know I did.
 
Psyche said:
Gimpy said:
Other symptoms that cropped up right away: a rash on my arms and face, mild abdominal pain, and general malaise.

Its not a good way to remember to take enzymes, but I'm not likely to forget them now. :-[ I've not found much online on how to deal with a sluggish or congested liver, does anyone have any thoughts on what else I can do?

Much thanks in advance, as I'm still a bit stuck near the bathroom yet and will have to check in sporadically today. :-[ :-[ :-[

Another important thing is to eliminate food allergies, so I was wondering if you had a chance to do the elimination diet (the ultra simple diet) to detect food intolerances? Here is an updated version FWIW:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13241.msg153781#msg153781


Oh, I'm pretty sure I'm allergic to everything. :lol: If its processed, I don't eat it...that goes pretty much for everything from crackers to coke. Sometimes before we go out to eat I'll have a meal at home and then have a salad or steamed veggies, or we go somewhere I can have meat and steamed veggies.

Since early May I've been on a very restricted diet: No wheat or gluten grains, dairy, soy, nightshades, yeasts, legumes, corn, or anything with a high aspartate or glutamate content. I've been 'poisoned' a couple of times by paprika and soy sauce, and in both cases it made my joints hurt. I was getting ready to do a food trial of eggs when this liver thing happened, so I'm going to wait a bit on that.

I'm not zealous about the aspartate or glutamate, because its harder to spot.

And coffee. Dear heavens. That is taking FOREVER to quit. I'm stuck at one cup a day and just cannot budge from it without a migraine. I figure there must be something else wrong somewhere for it to be so stuck, so that one is on a back burner for now.

I have done a food trial for wheat, and its crystal clear I should never eat it again. I blow up like a blimp right in front of my Hubby's eyes. He has real concerns that this elimination diet may make me malnourished, and he does not trust DMSO for anti inflammatory properties, and currently he's very unhappy with the way I 'experiment' with my body. In response, I've sent him links to a few sites that offer comprehensive food allergy testing that I'm pretty sure insurance will pick up, but so far he hasn't said anything more about it.



Once my liver calms down a bit I'll go back to working on the leaky gut issue. I'm not comfortable doing anything else until that is resolved, I think trying to detox more or do a cleanse will only make me sick again. :(
(One step at a time.)


I want to thank everyone who responded for the advice, its really appreciated. :flowers: :flowers: :flowers:
 
Gimpy said:
Since early May I've been on a very restricted diet: No wheat or gluten grains, dairy, soy, nightshades, yeasts, legumes, corn, or anything with a high aspartate or glutamate content. I've been 'poisoned' a couple of times by paprika and soy sauce, and in both cases it made my joints hurt. I was getting ready to do a food trial of eggs when this liver thing happened, so I'm going to wait a bit on that.

'Since early May' is not very long - it will take several months to a year for your body to really benefit from being gluten/dairy/etc. free - so give it some time, especially with your condition.

g said:
I'm not zealous about the aspartate or glutamate, because its harder to spot.

Get zealous - that stuff is killing you - at the very least avoid the ingredients listed on the forum as being glutamates (it can't hurt).

g said:
And coffee. Dear heavens. That is taking FOREVER to quit. I'm stuck at one cup a day and just cannot budge from it without a migraine. I figure there must be something else wrong somewhere for it to be so stuck, so that one is on a back burner for now.

After a few more months of being gluten/dairy/sugar free - your migraines will subside. I have a case study in that in a neighbor who finally decided, due to health issues, to stop it all and she had migraines monthly - now only once every 7 months (so far) and thinks they'll be gone for good once she's fully detoxed. Coffee is really bad news - no bones about it.

g said:
I have done a food trial for wheat, and its crystal clear I should never eat it again.

yep - wheat is evil.

g said:
He has real concerns that this elimination diet may make me malnourished,

Concerns are fine - concerns without reading the back up data are fear and don't help anyone. The elimination diet allows for all necessary nutrients in whatever quantity you desire - no chance for malnourishment - however with your medical condition, small steps are likely important (not sure?). If he's going to dissuade you from getting healthy (though that's not how he sees his input), he should at least get up to speed on the research - just my take, of course - it's up to you. I'm sure Psyche will have input that is much more helpful than mine.
 

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