English language

[Laura]

I believe it was in the Lillian Jackson Braun novel The Cat Who Saw Red, that I read about a character who was a translator. She spoke many languages, and the main character asked her, "What language do you think in?"

I've noticed that some people with good language ability can slip into thinking in the language being used rather easily.  My daughter, for example, speaks pretty fluent French due to spending five years in French schools - totally immersed at times because she was in a boarding school.  She says that when she is speaking French, she is thinking in French also and she has to switch to that thinking to speak.  When she is thinking in French, everything just comes out in French without effort.  

I think it is amazing because I am still "translating in my head".  I have to think of what I am going to say in English, translate it into French in my head, think about how to pronounce it, and then fumble through it.  If I am listening to a French speaker, I have to grab words, translate them in my head, assemble them, and then comprehend them.  I'm sure I could do a lot better if I didn't spend so much time working in English.  But I have so much to do, I can't take off 20 years to become a master of French.

Added:  Funny thing I noticed; I am losing SOME English because I refer to common objects rather often in French. Food, furniture, rooms, animals, just stuff.  I have a LOT of nouns in my memory but the verbs drive me nuts.  Also, the pronunciation.  Geeze, if a language commonly leaves off the pronunciation of the last syllable or few letters, why bother to write them at all?   Many verbs are spelled differently but pronounced exactly the same and that is crazy!  Then, if the noun is plural, all the adjectives have to be plural too, but again, rather often, it does not change the pronunciation in any way.  So, you think English is wacky???

[manitoban]

I believe it was in the Lillian Jackson Braun novel The Cat Who Saw Red, that I read about a character who was a translator. She spoke many languages, and the main character asked her, "What language do you think in?"

I've noticed that some people with good language ability can slip into thinking in the language being used rather easily.  My daughter, for example, speaks pretty fluent French due to spending five years in French schools - totally immersed at times because she was in a boarding school.  She says that when she is speaking French, she is thinking in French also and she has to switch to that thinking to speak.  When she is thinking in French, everything just comes out in French without effort. 

I think it is amazing because I am still "translating in my head".  I have to think of what I am going to say in English, translate it into French in my head, think about how to pronounce it, and then fumble through it.  If I am listening to a French speaker, I have to grab words, translate them in my head, assemble them, and then comprehend them.  I'm sure I could do a lot better if I didn't spend so much time working in English.  But I have so much to do, I can't take off 20 years to become a master of French.

I had a Danish friend who lived in an English speaking country for many years.  He said that not only did he think in English but after a long time there, he noticed, to his great astonishment,  that in his dreams he also spoke English! 

[Psyche]

My first language is Spanish, but I use English to communicate. Even though it is far from perfect, I think in English. Even my journal is in English. If I want to talk fluently in Spanish again, I have to be immersed in that language for at least 3 days.

I also studied Russian and even though I only understand some of it, it doesn't seem threatening since I've been hearing it since I was a newborn. If I would have the chance, I'll be happy to learn to speak it fluently.

I also learned Italian in my early twenties and spoke it even better than English. But it was not easy at all. Everybody told me that I would pick it up easily since it is so close to Spanish and I already knew other languages. Perhaps it was because I started learning English when I was 5 years old, whereas learning when you are an adult it's a whole different story. The brain circuits used when you learn a second language as an adult are different. Or so I remember reading.

Now I know enough French, which is definitely easier considering that I hardly ever practice and study it in comparison to what I did for my Italian skills. So now I tell people that after you learn a third language, the fourth one becomes easier I think that if you learn a language when you are an adult, it exercises those brain circuits, so that all the other languages that you learn after that one become easier.

The other peculiar thing is that reading something in my mother language will use to have a different emotional flavor than reading the same book in English, or in Italian, or in French. For example, Castaneda and Gurdjieff are translated in all those languages. It calls for different memories and feelings. As of lately, I tend to think that it is all the same. That books reach me through a "universal" language. Now I'm not sure any more in which language I'm thinking

[endescent]

I am losing SOME English because I refer to common objects rather often in French. Food, furniture, rooms, animals, just stuff.  I have a LOT of nouns in my memory but the verbs drive me nuts.  Also, the pronunciation.  Geeze, if a language commonly leaves off the pronunciation of the last syllable or few letters, why bother to write them at all?   Many verbs are spelled differently but pronounced exactly the same and that is crazy!  Then, if the noun is plural, all the adjectives have to be plural too, but again, rather often, it does not change the pronunciation in any way.  So, you think English is wacky???

When I was in middle school, they asked the students if they wanted French class or Spanish class. I knew French as being a "beautiful" language, the "language of love" by reputation, so I chose French, but it was full so they put me in Spanish. Looking back, I'm glad they did, as there are a lot more Spanish speakers in the US than French speakers.

I've also heard my friends who speak English fluently as a second language say they had the same experience as you Laura, where they use the word in the second language SO MUCH that they start forgetting the word in their native language.

Je ne parle pas Français, but I've noticed that about French, that the last few letters are often not pronounced. I thought to myself, how inefficient! Wacky indeed!

[Herakles]

This is interesting Manitoban.  I spent some time in South Africa and sorta picked up an accent there for awhile.  Well just two nights ago in my dream I could distinctly hear myself speaking with an SA accent!   (Born an American, live near Chicago)

It has been years however, so not sure what to make of that.

I've also moved around many many times this life and invariably wherever I go people ask "where are you from?" claiming that I have some kind of accent.  But really it is just a mixture of all the places lived, I guess.

I've studied a few languages but mastered none,  , including English.  LOL.

I believe it was in the Lillian Jackson Braun novel The Cat Who Saw Red, that I read about a character who was a translator. She spoke many languages, and the main character asked her, "What language do you think in?"

I've noticed that some people with good language ability can slip into thinking in the language being used rather easily.  My daughter, for example, speaks pretty fluent French due to spending five years in French schools - totally immersed at times because she was in a boarding school.  She says that when she is speaking French, she is thinking in French also and she has to switch to that thinking to speak.  When she is thinking in French, everything just comes out in French without effort. 

I think it is amazing because I am still "translating in my head".  I have to think of what I am going to say in English, translate it into French in my head, think about how to pronounce it, and then fumble through it.  If I am listening to a French speaker, I have to grab words, translate them in my head, assemble them, and then comprehend them.  I'm sure I could do a lot better if I didn't spend so much time working in English.  But I have so much to do, I can't take off 20 years to become a master of French.

I had a Danish friend who lived in an English speaking country for many years.  He said that not only did he think in English but after a long time there, he noticed, to his great astonishment,  that in his dreams he also spoke English!  

[E]

I spent some time in South Africa and sorta picked up an accent there for awhile.

Being South African myself (Afrikaans first language, English second), currently spending some time in the US, I have found that people can't really place the South African accent. The Australian accent is for example very distinctively Australian, and the same goes for British, French and American.

I'm so comfortable in English, that I sometimes forget that I have an accent to the people around me where I am now, and whenever I address someone for the first time, they usually ask whether I'm Australian or British.

I definitely always think in my mother tongue, and mastering a second language (English in my case), is an ongoing process. I have a document with a list of new English words I encounter, that keeps growing and growing, of which most came from SOTT articles.

I also find that I remember the meaning of an English word better if I look up the Afrikaans for it, rather than the English explanation/description.

As for pronunciation, just the other night I used the word gesture with my partner, pronouncing it as guess, and she thought I did it on purpose to be funny. Why would gesture be pronounced as if it starts with a 'j'? English has loads of stuff like that.

[Laura]

E, how do you pronounce "gist" or "giant"???  How about "fragile" and "legislature"? 

Legion, vigilant, allergic, margin, hygiene, fugitive, giraffe, imagination, strategic, tragic, longitude, and on and on.

Then, there is garbage which has both "g sounds," hard and soft, in one word.

How about the British pronunciation of "schedule"?  If you look at the Germanic rooted words that begin with sch, you find that it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

schadenfreude  schedule  schema  schematic  scheme  scherzando  schiller  schipperke  schism schismatic  schist   schizo  schizoid  schizophrenia   schlemiels  schlepp  schlock  schmaltz  schmear  schmooze  schmuck  schnapps  schnitzel  schnook  schnozz  scholar  school  schooner  schtick  schuss

[E]

E, how do you pronounce "gist" or "giant"???  How about "fragile" and "legislature"? 

Legion, vigilant, allergic, margin, hygiene, fugitive, giraffe, imagination, strategic, tragic, longitude, and on and on.

A-HA! Of course! Didn't really think of it like that.

Then, there is garbage which has both "g sounds," hard and soft, in one word.

See my point?

How about the British pronunciation of "schedule"?  If you look at the Germanic rooted words that begin with sch, you find that it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

schadenfreude  schedule  schema  schematic  scheme  scherzando  schiller  schipperke  schism schismatic  schist   schizo  schizoid  schizophrenia   schlemiels  schlepp  schlock  schmaltz  schmear  schmooze  schmuck  schnapps  schnitzel  schnook  schnozz  scholar  school  schooner  schtick  schuss

Very, very interesting!

[Laura]

Actually, gesture does sound nicer with the soft g... like the French "geste".   I would say that a lot of pronunciation changes of words borrowed from one language depend on the influences of still another language.

For me, English is actually a super interesting language because it is a hybrid and we have information about its hybridization available to us.  Many other languages are hybrids also, but far in the past and we have lost the clues.  We can learn how these things occur organically by tracking what happens with English.

What is also interesting is that there is a very old language  that is still spoken that is almost identical to English: Frisian.

Explain that.

[Herakles]

It is enough to drive one nuts, which is why it seems more honest to me to say one has studied English than to master it.

But that is nothing compared to the potential embarassment should one get their Spanish and Afrikaans mixed-up, a lesson learned indirectly the first time visiting Spain.

An Afrikaaner was part of of the entourage and told this hilarious story when it came to communicating with locals. 

After a day or two we were having lunch and the topic of greetings came up.

Well imagine the description, that the Spaniards are so warm and friendly and with such lovely hospitality.

But when walking down the street they would look him up and down, smile infectiously and say, Hola!

So it was a bit of a surprise to hear how this "hurt his feelings".  (a put-on)

It was not until realizing what Hola means in Afrikaans did I see the humour in it all.

 

Enjoy your time in the U.S. E - from my perspective that would be quite a feat.   

I spent some time in South Africa and sorta picked up an accent there for awhile.

Being South African myself (Afrikaans first language, English second), currently spending some time in the US, I have found that people can't really place the South African accent. The Australian accent is for example very distinctively Australian, and the same goes for British, French and American.

I'm so comfortable in English, that I sometimes forget that I have an accent to the people around me where I am now, and whenever I address someone for the first time, they usually ask whether I'm Australian or British.

I definitely always think in my mother tongue, and mastering a second language (English in my case), is an ongoing process. I have a document with a list of new English words I encounter, that keeps growing and growing, of which most came from SOTT articles.

I also find that I remember the meaning of an English word better if I look up the Afrikaans for it, rather than the English explanation/description.

As for pronunciation, just the other night I used the word gesture with my partner, pronouncing it as guess, and she thought I did it on purpose to be funny. Why would gesture be pronounced as if it starts with a 'j'? English has loads of stuff like that.

[E]

What is also interesting is that there is a very old language  that is still spoken that is almost identical to English: Frisian.

Explain that.

Very mysterious indeed.

But when walking down the street they would look him up and down, smile infectiously and say, Hola!

So it was a bit of a surprise to hear how this "hurt his feelings".  (a put-on)

It was not until realizing what Hola means in Afrikaans did I see the humour in it all.

 

HA-HA-HA!!!!!

That's funny! A very interesting book I read a couple of years ago, about advertising, is How the Cadillac Got Its Fins: And Other True Tales from the Annals of Business and Marketing, and there's a few stories of well known English brands that expanded into new countries, and how the brand name itself meant something extremely offensive in the native language of the country they tried to gain market share in! 

Enjoy your time in the U.S. E - from my perspective that would be quite a feat.   

Thanks Herakles 

[SolarMother]

I just wonder what it is about our brains that makes it so that learning a second language is so hard for some, and so easy for others. And then, why do some people never lose their foreign accent even if they speak their new language "fluently", and some do? I do not think it's simply a question of "how much work you put into it".

Yeah... I am in the situation of living in France and learning the French language. There was a guy I worked with in Toulouse who had very, very little French accent when he spoke English. It turns out he never lived abroad except for maybe short visits to England. As for me, I am one of the 2nd-language-challenged. I admit I cheat. I read the news in English and I watch movies in English. In this way, I deprive myself of total immersion, but I have met people who could speak French fluently having spent less time here than me. Don't get me wrong. My French has improved, but one of my friends told me that she thought I would still have an accent if I live here 10 years (it was said in a friendly way  ).

Maybe some of it is due to how we are educated when we are young and other cultural influences. I do wonder if there is a "type" of person with a "type" of brain who are going to be able to integrate a 2nd language easier than others.

Hello Patience,
I find this topic of learning a new language fascinating as well. You might like reading this book, Dreaming In Hindi (in english) mentioned below, if you have any time. It is a very funny, witty story of the author's journey into immersion of the Hindi language. She has also learned French and Spanish previously, but did not find any of it easy.  Her experiences would apply to many of us out there navigating a new world.
Yes, she, a New Yorker, spent a long time in India, totally immersing herself in the culture right after 9/11 happened! Talk about an adventure.
 She is a journalist/writer by profession-- and she interviews many experts in the field of learning new languages which she cleverly interjects into her story! It is all about the brain, changing the brain, and the very consciousness, not to mention the DNA! People have different ways of learning a new language according to her. It made sense to me, and was a delightful read. It made me want to immediately immerse myself in learning a new language! I'll have to settle for learning the root meanings of words...in order to learn the essence of the word!

Dreaming In Hindi - The new book from Katherine Russell Rich. A website that talks in Hindi, podcasts, videos and more on Katherine Russell Rich's fascinating book Dreaming In Hindi.
www.katherinerussellrich.com

[Avala]

I have also caught myself thinking in English. When doing that my sentences are far better than when I'm doing simultaneous translation in my head. But its hard to do it when I'm tired or not focused.

What is interesting to me is that we must think in some language. I mean why we do "mind vocalization"? I think that different languages probably holds different "thinking concepts" so to say (does that means that people who speak different language also see the world differently?), but its interesting that some kind of universal "thinking language" wasn't developed. Or we are just not aware of something like that.

If we can have telepathy by some chance, that would be useless then, because again everyone would think in different language 

[endescent]

its interesting that some kind of universal "thinking language" wasn't developed. Or we are just not aware of something like that.

If we can have telepathy by some chance, that would be useless then, because again everyone would think in different language 

Telepathy would be a universal thinking language. If we were telepathic, there would be no need for written and spoken languages, and thus, there would be real understanding. I remember the C's said, "Understanding is not of your density." This pertains to lessons, but I think it also pertains to language.

[endescent]

This is by far the most interesting conlang I've ever come across. Futurese. Ever wonder what American English will sound like a thousand years from now? Well wonder no more. Warning, this is for hardcore leximavens, not for the faint of heart.

http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/futurese.html