Science > Diet and Health

The Vegetarian Myth

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truth seeker:
This subject came up off forum and I was asked to post it here for discussion:


--- Quote --- I think I understand more fully what's going on with some vegetarians. I think the ones doing it for moral reasons have no real concern for health. That's probably obvious but I just realized this. I suppose I confused the lack of animal protein with health due to my own programming. I wonder if some people have had some deep wounding and attempt to fix the past because they were hurt so badly - they don't want to be responsible for hurting anyone the way they've been hurt?

So their vegetarian stance is a projection of their own wounded self upon animals. The meat eating population a projection of the wounding parent and therefore seen as the enemy. Being vegetarian allows them to uphold the image of the good child who can do no wrong.

The vegetarian/vegan diet (or dairy or whatever) further cements this inability to think (or having thought loops) properly by not supplying proper nutrients that would enable them to think outside the box. The box in this case being their own narcissistic wounding via their inability/unwillingness to accept responsibility.

--- End quote ---


ADMIN NOTE: Changed subject title to better reflect content of thread.

SAO:
Makes sense. A person has a deep psychological problem that causes him to not eat meat, and instead of trying to understand the true reason behind their own behavior, they come up with entire lists of rationalizations for this behavior to justify it. And as always happens when you do first and justify second, the lists are so far from objectivity, they're "not even wrong".

49 reasons "why I am" a vegetarian (read: 1 real unmentioned reason, but then 49 to justify afterwards):
http://www.britishmeat.com/49.htm

--- Quote ---The Environment
   1. Conservation of Fossil fuel. It takes 78 calories of fossil fuel to produce 1 calorie of beef protein; 35 calories for 1 calorie of pork; 22 calories for 1 of poultry; but just 1 calorie of fossil fuel for 1 calorie of soybeans. By eating plant foods instead of animal foods, I help conserve our non-renewable sources of energy.
   2. Water Conservation. It takes 3 to 15 times as much water to produce animal protein as it does plant protein. As a vegetarian I contribute to water conservation.
   3. Efficient use of grains. It takes up to 16 pounds of soybeans and grains to produce 1 lb. of beef and 3 to 6 lbs. to produce 1 lb of turkey & egg. By eating grain foods directly, I make the food supply more efficient & that contributes to the environment.
   4. Soil conservation. When grains & legumes are used more efficiently, our precious topsoil is automatically made more efficient in its use. We use less agricultural resources to provide for the same number of people.
   5. Saving our forests. Tropical forests in Brazil and other tropic regions are destroyed daily, in part, to create more acreage to raise livestock. By not supporting the meat industry, I directly reduce the demand to pillage these irreplaceable treasures of nature. Since the forest land "filters" our air supply and contains botanical sources for new medicines, this destruction is irreversable.
   6. Asthetics. Decaying animal parts, whether in a freezer case or served in restaurants, can never be as asthetically pleasing to the senses as the same foods made from wholesome vegetable sources. Only habit can allow one not to perceive this: a change in diet makes this self evident.

      Personal Health
   7. No deficiencies. There is no nutrient necessary for optimal human functioning which cannot be obtained from plant food.
   8. High fat plus cholesterol. Animal foods are higher in fat than most plant foods, particularly saturated fats. Plants do not contain cholesterol.
   9. "Carb" deficient. Meat is deficient in carbohydrates, particularly the starches which are so essential to proper health.
  10. Vitamin deficient. Except for the b-complex, meat is largely deficient in vitamins.
  11. Agricultural Chemicals. Being higher on the food chain, animal foods contain far higher concentrations of agricultural chemicals than plant foods, including pesticides, herbicides, etc.
  12. Exposure to livestock drugs. There are over 20,000 different drugs, including sterols, antibiotics, growth hormones and other veterinary drugs that are given to livestock animals. These drugs are consumed when animal foods are consumed. The dangers herein, in secondary consumption of antibiotics, are well documented.
  13. Pathogenic Microorganisms. There are a host of bacteria and viruses, some quite dangerous, that are common to animals. When I eat meat, I eat the organisms in the meat. Micro-organisms are present in plant foods too, but their number and danger to human health is by no means comparable to that of those in meat.
  14. Worms and other Parasites. Ditto on # 13!
  15. Shelf life differential. Plant foods last longer than animal foods. Try this experiment: Leave out a head of lettuce and a pound of hamburger for 1 day, which will make you sick?
  16. Organoleptic Indications of Pathenogens. Plant foods give tell-tale signs of "going bad". Ever hear of someone getting sick from "bad broccoli"?
  17. Heart Disease. Meat eating increases the risk of heart disease, this country's #1 killer. The correlation is an epidemiological fact.
  18. Cancer prevention. Of all the natural cancer prevention substances found: vitamin C, B-17, hydroquionenes, beta carotene, NDGA, - none has been found to be animal derived. Yet most meats, when cooked, produce an array of benzenes and other carcinogenic compounds. Cancer is infinitely easier to prevent than cure. Soybeans contain protease inhibitor, a powerful anticancer compound. You won't find it in useful quantities in animal based food.
  19. Disease Inducing. The correlation between meat consumption and a wide range of degenerative diseases is well founded and includes.....
  20. Osteoporosis
  21. Kidney Stones and Gallstones
  22. Diabetes
  23. Multiple Sclerosis
  24. Arthritis
  25. Gum disease
  26. Acne. Aggravated by animal food.
  27. Obesity. Studies confirm that vegetarians tend to be thinner than meat eaters. Obesity is considered by doctors to be a disease within itself.
  28. Intestinal Toxemia. The condition of the intestinal flora is critical to overall health. Animal products putrefy the colon.
  29. Transit time. Wholesome food travels quickly through the "G.I" tract, leaving little time to spoil and incite disease within the body.
  30. Fiber deficient. Fiber absorbs unwanted, excess fats; cleans the intestines; provides bulk and aids in peristalsis. Plant food is high in fiber content; meat, poultry and dairy products have none.
  31. Body wastes. Food from animals contain their waste, including adrenaline, uric and lactic acid, etc., Before adding ketchup, the biggest contributors to the "flavor profile" of a hamburger are the leftover blood and urine.
  32. Excess protein. The average American eats 400% of the RDA for protein. This causes excess nitrogen in the blood that creates a host of long-term health problems.
  33. Longevity. To increase ones risk of getting degenerative disease means decreasing ones chance to live a naturally long healthy life. Huzas and other peoples with large centenarian populations maintain lifestyles that are relatively meat free.
  34. Well Being. I just feel better since "giving up" meat and becoming vegetarian.

      Personal Finances
  35. Health care costs. Being healthier on a vegetarian diet means spending less on health care.
  36. Food costs. Vegetarian foods tend to cost less than meat based items.

      Ethics
  37. Love of animals. I love animals as I love myself. I have no desire to kill them or cause them harm.
  38. Stance against Factory Farming.. I cannot make a statement against factory farming if I myself eat animals.
  39. Respect for Sentient Life. I show gratitude to my Creator(s?) by eating as low on the food chain as possible.
  40. "Economic Vote". I show support of the meat industry and the way they operate when I purchase and use their products.
  41. Small sacrifice The sacrifice I make is nothing compared to the animals, its life.
  42. Natural diet. Our hands, teeth, feet, intestinal tract...even our body chemistry is that of an herbivore.
  43. Reciprocity. If I partake in the slaughter of animals, I will have to repay my contribution to that act.
  44. "Protecting the Temple". "Whatever affects the body has a corresponding effect on the mind and soul" (E.G. White)
  45. I believe in nonviolence. Slaughter isn't.
  46. World Peace. There can never be peace among men while men are declaring war on other highly developed life forms.
  47. Clear conscience. I know what I'm doing is right. I feel good inside about my decision to remain "meatless"
  48. Example. To live this way is to protect the underlying values of those around me.
  49. Easy substitutes. There are vegetable based substitutes for every meat product imaginable.

--- End quote ---

Well, let's see, off the top of my head, the entire "the environment" section is wrong. Most of personal health section is either wrong or irrelevant, because whatever meat is deficient in will be made up for when you eat your veggies - meat eaters don't stop eating veggies! As for its association with all these health issues, I'd have to see some good evidence because for example saturated fats and cholesterol are not bad for you or cause any kind of disease when part of a balanced diet. The ethics section is so wrong it's "not even wrong". I mean, "world peace", really?

Not to mention that all these meat substitutes, like soy, will kill you. There's simple steps to cover for most of the "disadvantages" they mention about meat (like getting organic stuff), and many benefits all around to make it worthwhile. Plus, bacon is good with everything.

Gertrudes:
Your quote makes sense to me as well truth seeker. I think so, vegetarianism can indeed be a way to expurgate past hurts. We are closer to animals then plants, therefore it is much easier to think of the suffering of an animal than it is that of a pant. By identifying with the animal at some level, the wounded person decides to take an active stance towards her/his own hurt, and uses abstinence from meat as a tool.

I think that there is also a bit of black and white thinking here, in that most morally induced vegetarians will only consider the big companies of meat industry and the appalling conditions in which they raise animals, also mentioned in SAO`s quote, but will often completely neglect their local organic meat producers who provide their animals a much greater quality of life, and even deaths.

I know that your quote is mainly focusing on the moral aspect of it, and hopefully I won`t be diverting from your intention in mentioning the health induced vegetarian which is also part of the whole vegetarian equation. I have personally lived it for 6 years, having started to eat meat again 7 years ago.
I think that in the health induced vegetarian`s case, food has a sort of placebo effect. When looking for a healthy diet, mainstream medicine has done a great job in leading people to be cholesterol and saturated fats phobic. Frying things was a taboo that I held myself for years. I can almost say that I was born and raised believing that animal fat is just evil. And I think that I can safely say that most people who are looking for a healthy diet believe so too. Not to mention some other non factual things we are led to believe, for example in SAO`s quote we read:


--- Quote from: SAO ---42. Natural diet. Our hands, teeth, feet, intestinal tract...even our body chemistry is that of an herbivore.

--- End quote ---

I have heard this so many times that it is not even funny. I have even read it in supposedly very good nutritional books. Having been brainwashed so well from all sides, it won`t even cross most people`s mind to research more, and when choosing for a vegetarian diet, the placebo effect kicks in, and their beliefs about food will make them feel "cleaner", healthier, perhaps even more spiritual.
Another problem can result from the black and white thinking, if the consumer assumes that he/she either buys meat in a supermarket from a big producer or even a fast food type burger, or does not eat it at all, it is not surprising that they feel indeed healthier by eliminating it from their diet.


--- Quote from: SAO ---Not to mention that all these meat substitutes, like soy, will kill you.

--- End quote ---

This makes me think that soy producing companies and their subsidized health research studies are probably responsible for many of our health misconceptions.

svjetlonosa:

--- Quote from: SAO on November 30, 2010, 09:25:25 PM ---Makes sense. A person has a deep psychological problem that causes him to not eat meat, and instead of trying to understand the true reason behind their own behavior, they come up with entire lists of rationalizations for this behavior to justify it. And as always happens when you do first and justify second, the lists are so far from objectivity, they're "not even wrong".
Well, let's see, off the top of my head, the entire "the environment" section is wrong. Most of personal health section is either wrong or irrelevant, because whatever meat is deficient in will be made up for when you eat your veggies - meat eaters don't stop eating veggies! As for its association with all these health issues, I'd have to see some good evidence because for example saturated fats and cholesterol are not bad for you or cause any kind of disease when part of a balanced diet. The ethics section is so wrong it's "not even wrong". I mean, "world peace", really?
Not to mention that all these meat substitutes, like soy, will kill you. There's simple steps to cover for most of the "disadvantages" they mention about meat (like getting organic stuff), and many benefits all around to make it worthwhile. Plus, bacon is good with everything.

--- End quote ---

Off with his head! – screamed the Queen of Hearts, and poor vegetarian lost his life for being different.

I think that everyone should respect other people's choices on food, sex, religion and many other important things in life. If someone has made different choices than ours that doesn't mean he/she is sick, self-discepted or similar. Some people just don't like meat because of its taste, some people don't like vegetable in general, or specific vegetable, and that's OK.
On the other hand, all human kind consists of different humans with different body types regardless if they are driven by their programmes or by something else. Aren't we all driven by our programmes? I suppose that programmes are individually designed and/or adjusted according to physical bodies and habits. The same goes for food preferences and choices. If the body is in a balance, it knows exactly what kind of food needs. Who would better know than the body/person? Someone else? No. It is not the knowledge talking saying that vegetarians have “a deep psychological problem”. It is a deep misunderstanding of different needs of different people; it is a matter of discrimination. Being a vegetarian or not, all people need sources of energy for living. Physical body needs physical food sources, astral/eteric body needs fine energy food and higher levels of a person, if developed, need even more sophisticated food source.
The easiest way for life supporting is that physical food contains all necessary food types (meaning: physical and fine/sophisticated energy). If not, a person needs to find different sources of fine energy supply and to keep under control quantities of physical food taking. The reason for obesity is in deep need of a person to fulfil the quantity of fine and sophisticated energy by eating large quantities of depleted or empty food. There is no health for a person in the physical food which does not contain fine energies. 
Of course, an official science does not recognise energy contained in food except the calories of burnt food in calorimeter. And that is not the same. If it is the same, the human body and a calorimeter are exactly the same machines.
So, a vegetarian or not, it is up to each of us to discover what is the best way for machine functioning, what are the best choices for food supply (nutrients and energy). Keeping the analogy of a machine, there are engines running on fuel, woods, gas, etc. Each of them has advantages and disadvantages one should know and according to that to make a choice. And rest of should be respectful to other people's choices.

truth seeker:

--- Quote from: svjetlonosa on December 01, 2010, 12:27:14 AM ---Off with his head! – screamed the Queen of Hearts, and poor vegetarian lost his life for being different.

I think that everyone should respect other people's choices on food, sex, religion and many other important things in life. If someone has made different choices than ours that doesn't mean he/she is sick, self-discepted or similar. Some people just don't like meat because of its taste, some people don't like vegetable in general, or specific vegetable, and that's OK.
--- End quote ---

First of all, I'm hoping that this thread can unfold in a fruitful discussion as opposed to an emotional one and would caution everyone participating to keep that in mind. Second, I'd like to make it clear that we are talking about some vegetarians - specifically those who are adamant in their stance. Third, I respect the choice of all people to do as they please. These thoughts were born from the responses to the recent Sott article and an attempt to understand why some are so resistant to information that is presented that does not uphold their world view.


--- Quote from: svjetlonosa on December 01, 2010, 12:27:14 AM ---On the other hand, all human kind consists of different humans with different body types regardless if they are driven by their programmes or by something else. Aren't we all driven by our programmes? I suppose that programmes are individually designed and/or adjusted according to physical bodies and habits. The same goes for food preferences and choices.
--- End quote ---
Yes, and we are attempting to better understand this issue. I am not sure however that programs are designed/adjusted to individual physical bodies. Can you clarify this please? Also, aren't we striving to get rid of our programs?


--- Quote from: svjetlonosa on December 01, 2010, 12:27:14 AM --- If the body is in a balance, it knows exactly what kind of food needs. Who would better know than the body/person? Someone else? No. It is not the knowledge talking saying that vegetarians have “a deep psychological problem”. It is a deep misunderstanding of different needs of different people; it is a matter of discrimination. Being a vegetarian or not, all people need sources of energy for living. Physical body needs physical food sources, astral/eteric body needs fine energy food and higher levels of a person, if developed, need even more sophisticated food source.
--- End quote ---
In the first sentence bolded, I suppose that "if" would be the operative word. If the body is not in balance, but the person believes it is so then they might not know better. They would need to test foods individually in order to find out as opposed to cutting out an entire group of foods. If a person is a vegetarian and yet is consuming gluten, sugar, dairy, corn and soy which have been shown to be harmful to most if not all humans, their body is not in balance. In short, our individual thoughts regarding anything cannot be trusted. While it is important for each person to take responsibility for their own health, to base a decision on whether to eat something or not eat something simply because it makes us feel like a good person is not in our best interests nor in the best interests of any other being (animal or otherwise) in the long run. It is self serving. It is in this context which we are speaking.


--- Quote from: svjetlonosa on December 01, 2010, 12:27:14 AM ---The easiest way for life supporting is that physical food contains all necessary food types (meaning: physical and fine/sophisticated energy). If not, a person needs to find different sources of fine energy supply and to keep under control quantities of physical food taking. The reason for obesity is in deep need of a person to fulfil the quantity of fine and sophisticated energy by eating large quantities of depleted or empty food. There is no health for a person in the physical food which does not contain fine energies. 
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure I understand this. Just as there is no one reason that people choose vegetarianism, there is no one reason that people are obese.


--- Quote from: svjetlonosa on December 01, 2010, 12:27:14 AM ---Of course, an official science does not recognise energy contained in food except the calories of burnt food in calorimeter. And that is not the same. If it is the same, the human body and a calorimeter are exactly the same machines.
So, a vegetarian or not, it is up to each of us to discover what is the best way for machine functioning, what are the best choices for food supply (nutrients and energy). Keeping the analogy of a machine, there are engines running on fuel, woods, gas, etc. Each of them has advantages and disadvantages one should know and according to that to make a choice. And rest of should be respectful to other people's choices.


--- End quote ---
Sorry, but I think you're attempting to use Gurdjieff terms in order to support your views. Discovering includes learning. If one is not open to learning, how can one discover anything? If one only accepts information which they "like" how is that objective?

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