The Vegetarian Myth

truth seeker

truth seeker

The Living Force
This subject came up off forum and I was asked to post it here for discussion:

I think I understand more fully what's going on with some vegetarians. I think the ones doing it for moral reasons have no real concern for health. That's probably obvious but I just realized this. I suppose I confused the lack of animal protein with health due to my own programming. I wonder if some people have had some deep wounding and attempt to fix the past because they were hurt so badly - they don't want to be responsible for hurting anyone the way they've been hurt?

So their vegetarian stance is a projection of their own wounded self upon animals. The meat eating population a projection of the wounding parent and therefore seen as the enemy. Being vegetarian allows them to uphold the image of the good child who can do no wrong.

The vegetarian/vegan diet (or dairy or whatever) further cements this inability to think (or having thought loops) properly by not supplying proper nutrients that would enable them to think outside the box. The box in this case being their own narcissistic wounding via their inability/unwillingness to accept responsibility.
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ADMIN NOTE: Changed subject title to better reflect content of thread.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Makes sense. A person has a deep psychological problem that causes him to not eat meat, and instead of trying to understand the true reason behind their own behavior, they come up with entire lists of rationalizations for this behavior to justify it. And as always happens when you do first and justify second, the lists are so far from objectivity, they're "not even wrong".

49 reasons "why I am" a vegetarian (read: 1 real unmentioned reason, but then 49 to justify afterwards):
http://www.britishmeat.com/49.htm
The Environment
1. Conservation of Fossil fuel. It takes 78 calories of fossil fuel to produce 1 calorie of beef protein; 35 calories for 1 calorie of pork; 22 calories for 1 of poultry; but just 1 calorie of fossil fuel for 1 calorie of soybeans. By eating plant foods instead of animal foods, I help conserve our non-renewable sources of energy.
2. Water Conservation. It takes 3 to 15 times as much water to produce animal protein as it does plant protein. As a vegetarian I contribute to water conservation.
3. Efficient use of grains. It takes up to 16 pounds of soybeans and grains to produce 1 lb. of beef and 3 to 6 lbs. to produce 1 lb of turkey & egg. By eating grain foods directly, I make the food supply more efficient & that contributes to the environment.
4. Soil conservation. When grains & legumes are used more efficiently, our precious topsoil is automatically made more efficient in its use. We use less agricultural resources to provide for the same number of people.
5. Saving our forests. Tropical forests in Brazil and other tropic regions are destroyed daily, in part, to create more acreage to raise livestock. By not supporting the meat industry, I directly reduce the demand to pillage these irreplaceable treasures of nature. Since the forest land "filters" our air supply and contains botanical sources for new medicines, this destruction is irreversable.
6. Asthetics. Decaying animal parts, whether in a freezer case or served in restaurants, can never be as asthetically pleasing to the senses as the same foods made from wholesome vegetable sources. Only habit can allow one not to perceive this: a change in diet makes this self evident.

Personal Health
7. No deficiencies. There is no nutrient necessary for optimal human functioning which cannot be obtained from plant food.
8. High fat plus cholesterol. Animal foods are higher in fat than most plant foods, particularly saturated fats. Plants do not contain cholesterol.
9. "Carb" deficient. Meat is deficient in carbohydrates, particularly the starches which are so essential to proper health.
10. Vitamin deficient. Except for the b-complex, meat is largely deficient in vitamins.
11. Agricultural Chemicals. Being higher on the food chain, animal foods contain far higher concentrations of agricultural chemicals than plant foods, including pesticides, herbicides, etc.
12. Exposure to livestock drugs. There are over 20,000 different drugs, including sterols, antibiotics, growth hormones and other veterinary drugs that are given to livestock animals. These drugs are consumed when animal foods are consumed. The dangers herein, in secondary consumption of antibiotics, are well documented.
13. Pathogenic Microorganisms. There are a host of bacteria and viruses, some quite dangerous, that are common to animals. When I eat meat, I eat the organisms in the meat. Micro-organisms are present in plant foods too, but their number and danger to human health is by no means comparable to that of those in meat.
14. Worms and other Parasites. Ditto on # 13!
15. Shelf life differential. Plant foods last longer than animal foods. Try this experiment: Leave out a head of lettuce and a pound of hamburger for 1 day, which will make you sick?
16. Organoleptic Indications of Pathenogens. Plant foods give tell-tale signs of "going bad". Ever hear of someone getting sick from "bad broccoli"?
17. Heart Disease. Meat eating increases the risk of heart disease, this country's #1 killer. The correlation is an epidemiological fact.
18. Cancer prevention. Of all the natural cancer prevention substances found: vitamin C, B-17, hydroquionenes, beta carotene, NDGA, - none has been found to be animal derived. Yet most meats, when cooked, produce an array of benzenes and other carcinogenic compounds. Cancer is infinitely easier to prevent than cure. Soybeans contain protease inhibitor, a powerful anticancer compound. You won't find it in useful quantities in animal based food.
19. Disease Inducing. The correlation between meat consumption and a wide range of degenerative diseases is well founded and includes.....
20. Osteoporosis
21. Kidney Stones and Gallstones
22. Diabetes
23. Multiple Sclerosis
24. Arthritis
25. Gum disease
26. Acne. Aggravated by animal food.
27. Obesity. Studies confirm that vegetarians tend to be thinner than meat eaters. Obesity is considered by doctors to be a disease within itself.
28. Intestinal Toxemia. The condition of the intestinal flora is critical to overall health. Animal products putrefy the colon.
29. Transit time. Wholesome food travels quickly through the "G.I" tract, leaving little time to spoil and incite disease within the body.
30. Fiber deficient. Fiber absorbs unwanted, excess fats; cleans the intestines; provides bulk and aids in peristalsis. Plant food is high in fiber content; meat, poultry and dairy products have none.
31. Body wastes. Food from animals contain their waste, including adrenaline, uric and lactic acid, etc., Before adding ketchup, the biggest contributors to the "flavor profile" of a hamburger are the leftover blood and urine.
32. Excess protein. The average American eats 400% of the RDA for protein. This causes excess nitrogen in the blood that creates a host of long-term health problems.
33. Longevity. To increase ones risk of getting degenerative disease means decreasing ones chance to live a naturally long healthy life. Huzas and other peoples with large centenarian populations maintain lifestyles that are relatively meat free.
34. Well Being. I just feel better since "giving up" meat and becoming vegetarian.

Personal Finances
35. Health care costs. Being healthier on a vegetarian diet means spending less on health care.
36. Food costs. Vegetarian foods tend to cost less than meat based items.

Ethics
37. Love of animals. I love animals as I love myself. I have no desire to kill them or cause them harm.
38. Stance against Factory Farming.. I cannot make a statement against factory farming if I myself eat animals.
39. Respect for Sentient Life. I show gratitude to my Creator(s?) by eating as low on the food chain as possible.
40. "Economic Vote". I show support of the meat industry and the way they operate when I purchase and use their products.
41. Small sacrifice The sacrifice I make is nothing compared to the animals, its life.
42. Natural diet. Our hands, teeth, feet, intestinal tract...even our body chemistry is that of an herbivore.
43. Reciprocity. If I partake in the slaughter of animals, I will have to repay my contribution to that act.
44. "Protecting the Temple". "Whatever affects the body has a corresponding effect on the mind and soul" (E.G. White)
45. I believe in nonviolence. Slaughter isn't.
46. World Peace. There can never be peace among men while men are declaring war on other highly developed life forms.
47. Clear conscience. I know what I'm doing is right. I feel good inside about my decision to remain "meatless"
48. Example. To live this way is to protect the underlying values of those around me.
49. Easy substitutes. There are vegetable based substitutes for every meat product imaginable.
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Well, let's see, off the top of my head, the entire "the environment" section is wrong. Most of personal health section is either wrong or irrelevant, because whatever meat is deficient in will be made up for when you eat your veggies - meat eaters don't stop eating veggies! As for its association with all these health issues, I'd have to see some good evidence because for example saturated fats and cholesterol are not bad for you or cause any kind of disease when part of a balanced diet. The ethics section is so wrong it's "not even wrong". I mean, "world peace", really?

Not to mention that all these meat substitutes, like soy, will kill you. There's simple steps to cover for most of the "disadvantages" they mention about meat (like getting organic stuff), and many benefits all around to make it worthwhile. Plus, bacon is good with everything.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Your quote makes sense to me as well truth seeker. I think so, vegetarianism can indeed be a way to expurgate past hurts. We are closer to animals then plants, therefore it is much easier to think of the suffering of an animal than it is that of a pant. By identifying with the animal at some level, the wounded person decides to take an active stance towards her/his own hurt, and uses abstinence from meat as a tool.

I think that there is also a bit of black and white thinking here, in that most morally induced vegetarians will only consider the big companies of meat industry and the appalling conditions in which they raise animals, also mentioned in SAO`s quote, but will often completely neglect their local organic meat producers who provide their animals a much greater quality of life, and even deaths.

I know that your quote is mainly focusing on the moral aspect of it, and hopefully I won`t be diverting from your intention in mentioning the health induced vegetarian which is also part of the whole vegetarian equation. I have personally lived it for 6 years, having started to eat meat again 7 years ago.
I think that in the health induced vegetarian`s case, food has a sort of placebo effect. When looking for a healthy diet, mainstream medicine has done a great job in leading people to be cholesterol and saturated fats phobic. Frying things was a taboo that I held myself for years. I can almost say that I was born and raised believing that animal fat is just evil. And I think that I can safely say that most people who are looking for a healthy diet believe so too. Not to mention some other non factual things we are led to believe, for example in SAO`s quote we read:

SAO said:
42. Natural diet. Our hands, teeth, feet, intestinal tract...even our body chemistry is that of an herbivore.
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I have heard this so many times that it is not even funny. I have even read it in supposedly very good nutritional books. Having been brainwashed so well from all sides, it won`t even cross most people`s mind to research more, and when choosing for a vegetarian diet, the placebo effect kicks in, and their beliefs about food will make them feel "cleaner", healthier, perhaps even more spiritual.
Another problem can result from the black and white thinking, if the consumer assumes that he/she either buys meat in a supermarket from a big producer or even a fast food type burger, or does not eat it at all, it is not surprising that they feel indeed healthier by eliminating it from their diet.

SAO said:
Not to mention that all these meat substitutes, like soy, will kill you.
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This makes me think that soy producing companies and their subsidized health research studies are probably responsible for many of our health misconceptions.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

SAO said:
Makes sense. A person has a deep psychological problem that causes him to not eat meat, and instead of trying to understand the true reason behind their own behavior, they come up with entire lists of rationalizations for this behavior to justify it. And as always happens when you do first and justify second, the lists are so far from objectivity, they're "not even wrong".
Well, let's see, off the top of my head, the entire "the environment" section is wrong. Most of personal health section is either wrong or irrelevant, because whatever meat is deficient in will be made up for when you eat your veggies - meat eaters don't stop eating veggies! As for its association with all these health issues, I'd have to see some good evidence because for example saturated fats and cholesterol are not bad for you or cause any kind of disease when part of a balanced diet. The ethics section is so wrong it's "not even wrong". I mean, "world peace", really?
Not to mention that all these meat substitutes, like soy, will kill you. There's simple steps to cover for most of the "disadvantages" they mention about meat (like getting organic stuff), and many benefits all around to make it worthwhile. Plus, bacon is good with everything.
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Off with his head! – screamed the Queen of Hearts, and poor vegetarian lost his life for being different.

I think that everyone should respect other people's choices on food, sex, religion and many other important things in life. If someone has made different choices than ours that doesn't mean he/she is sick, self-discepted or similar. Some people just don't like meat because of its taste, some people don't like vegetable in general, or specific vegetable, and that's OK.
On the other hand, all human kind consists of different humans with different body types regardless if they are driven by their programmes or by something else. Aren't we all driven by our programmes? I suppose that programmes are individually designed and/or adjusted according to physical bodies and habits. The same goes for food preferences and choices. If the body is in a balance, it knows exactly what kind of food needs. Who would better know than the body/person? Someone else? No. It is not the knowledge talking saying that vegetarians have “a deep psychological problem”. It is a deep misunderstanding of different needs of different people; it is a matter of discrimination. Being a vegetarian or not, all people need sources of energy for living. Physical body needs physical food sources, astral/eteric body needs fine energy food and higher levels of a person, if developed, need even more sophisticated food source.
The easiest way for life supporting is that physical food contains all necessary food types (meaning: physical and fine/sophisticated energy). If not, a person needs to find different sources of fine energy supply and to keep under control quantities of physical food taking. The reason for obesity is in deep need of a person to fulfil the quantity of fine and sophisticated energy by eating large quantities of depleted or empty food. There is no health for a person in the physical food which does not contain fine energies.
Of course, an official science does not recognise energy contained in food except the calories of burnt food in calorimeter. And that is not the same. If it is the same, the human body and a calorimeter are exactly the same machines.
So, a vegetarian or not, it is up to each of us to discover what is the best way for machine functioning, what are the best choices for food supply (nutrients and energy). Keeping the analogy of a machine, there are engines running on fuel, woods, gas, etc. Each of them has advantages and disadvantages one should know and according to that to make a choice. And rest of should be respectful to other people's choices.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

svjetlonosa said:
Off with his head! – screamed the Queen of Hearts, and poor vegetarian lost his life for being different.

I think that everyone should respect other people's choices on food, sex, religion and many other important things in life. If someone has made different choices than ours that doesn't mean he/she is sick, self-discepted or similar. Some people just don't like meat because of its taste, some people don't like vegetable in general, or specific vegetable, and that's OK.
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First of all, I'm hoping that this thread can unfold in a fruitful discussion as opposed to an emotional one and would caution everyone participating to keep that in mind. Second, I'd like to make it clear that we are talking about some vegetarians - specifically those who are adamant in their stance. Third, I respect the choice of all people to do as they please. These thoughts were born from the responses to the recent Sott article and an attempt to understand why some are so resistant to information that is presented that does not uphold their world view.

svjetlonosa said:
On the other hand, all human kind consists of different humans with different body types regardless if they are driven by their programmes or by something else. Aren't we all driven by our programmes? I suppose that programmes are individually designed and/or adjusted according to physical bodies and habits. The same goes for food preferences and choices.
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Yes, and we are attempting to better understand this issue. I am not sure however that programs are designed/adjusted to individual physical bodies. Can you clarify this please? Also, aren't we striving to get rid of our programs?

svjetlonosa said:
If the body is in a balance, it knows exactly what kind of food needs. Who would better know than the body/person? Someone else? No. It is not the knowledge talking saying that vegetarians have “a deep psychological problem”. It is a deep misunderstanding of different needs of different people; it is a matter of discrimination. Being a vegetarian or not, all people need sources of energy for living. Physical body needs physical food sources, astral/eteric body needs fine energy food and higher levels of a person, if developed, need even more sophisticated food source.
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In the first sentence bolded, I suppose that "if" would be the operative word. If the body is not in balance, but the person believes it is so then they might not know better. They would need to test foods individually in order to find out as opposed to cutting out an entire group of foods. If a person is a vegetarian and yet is consuming gluten, sugar, dairy, corn and soy which have been shown to be harmful to most if not all humans, their body is not in balance. In short, our individual thoughts regarding anything cannot be trusted. While it is important for each person to take responsibility for their own health, to base a decision on whether to eat something or not eat something simply because it makes us feel like a good person is not in our best interests nor in the best interests of any other being (animal or otherwise) in the long run. It is self serving. It is in this context which we are speaking.

svjetlonosa said:
The easiest way for life supporting is that physical food contains all necessary food types (meaning: physical and fine/sophisticated energy). If not, a person needs to find different sources of fine energy supply and to keep under control quantities of physical food taking. The reason for obesity is in deep need of a person to fulfil the quantity of fine and sophisticated energy by eating large quantities of depleted or empty food. There is no health for a person in the physical food which does not contain fine energies.
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I'm not sure I understand this. Just as there is no one reason that people choose vegetarianism, there is no one reason that people are obese.

svjetlonosa said:
Of course, an official science does not recognise energy contained in food except the calories of burnt food in calorimeter. And that is not the same. If it is the same, the human body and a calorimeter are exactly the same machines.
So, a vegetarian or not, it is up to each of us to discover what is the best way for machine functioning, what are the best choices for food supply (nutrients and energy). Keeping the analogy of a machine, there are engines running on fuel, woods, gas, etc. Each of them has advantages and disadvantages one should know and according to that to make a choice. And rest of should be respectful to other people's choices.
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Sorry, but I think you're attempting to use Gurdjieff terms in order to support your views. Discovering includes learning. If one is not open to learning, how can one discover anything? If one only accepts information which they "like" how is that objective?
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

svjetlonosa said:
Off with his head! – screamed the Queen of Hearts, and poor vegetarian lost his life for being different.
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All I'm saying is that people often choose things for the wrong reasons and then justify their choices with illusions. If someone is a vegetarian because they just don't like meat or something, but entertain no illusions about their choice, then that's different. But the link I gave that had 49 reasons to be vegetarian is an example of the opposite - of using illusions and popular lies to justify it. I don't know if these reasons represent the majority of vegetarians, but so far a cursory glance at websites that gave reasons to be a vegetarian were all very similar in nature, so there's a trend. I dunno how many people use those reasons to "switch", but whoever wrote them is clearly so adamant about vegetarianism that they'll say just about anything, no matter how nonsensical and false, to defend it and convince others.

svjetlonosa said:
I think that everyone should respect other people's choices on food, sex, religion and many other important things in life.
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Totally agree, but it doesn't mean we should accept that all these choices are done for healthy and objective reasons. For example, the choice to follow a religion is never a healthy choice done with any kind of clarity or objectivity. We can respect it, but we don't have to pretend that it has any merit. Many choices are done out of ignorance, psychological issues, emotional issues, peer pressure, and other manipulation. Just like all opinions are not of equal value, not all choices are of equal merit.

Personally, give me a nice juicy steak or about a pound of bacon and I'm happy. Or a bucket of chicken wings..
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

truth seeker said:
svjetlonosa said:
If the body is in a balance, it knows exactly what kind of food needs. Who would better know than the body/person? Someone else? No. It is not the knowledge talking saying that vegetarians have “a deep psychological problem”. It is a deep misunderstanding of different needs of different people; it is a matter of discrimination. Being a vegetarian or not, all people need sources of energy for living. Physical body needs physical food sources, astral/eteric body needs fine energy food and higher levels of a person, if developed, need even more sophisticated food source.
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In the first sentence bolded, I suppose that "if" would be the operative word. If the body is not in balance, but the person believes it is so then they might not know better. They would need to test foods individually in order to find out as opposed to cutting out an entire group of foods. If a person is a vegetarian and yet is consuming gluten, sugar, dairy, corn and soy which have been shown to be harmful to most if not all humans, their body is not in balance. In short, our individual thoughts regarding anything cannot be trusted. While it is important for each person to take responsibility for their own health, to base a decision on whether to eat something or not eat something simply because it makes us feel like a good person is not in our best interests nor in the best interests of any other being (animal or otherwise) in the long run. It is self serving. It is in this context which we are speaking.
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I'd have to agree with truth seeker here.

To speak of food "needs", somehow my mind jumps back to the original quote that started this thread. It seems likely to me that diets become an emotional fulfillment or reenactment of sorts. Most people do not eat to be healthy, productive, evolving human beings -- it is quite the opposite from what I've observed. So, you're right that everybody has different needs, but typically this ends up being different needs for emotional calming and addiction. On that note, there is a quote that I'm rather fond of by Margaret Mead:

"It is easier to change a man's religion than to change his diet."

So when it comes to 'needs', consider the comparison to religion and the need that it fulfills for most people. What does that tell us?

Like truth seeker said, one can't possibly know what foods are "good" for us (good as defined as life restoring rather than life-taking). Our brains just aren't set up that way. We judge foods on taste, texture, visual appeal, and lastly the brain chemical spikes that come from these foods. We live in a haze of sluggishness and chronic health problems that we've told ourselves are "normal". How is anybody able to form an objective opinion of their real dietary needs in a state like this? Like any addiction it takes outside intervention and a group effort, I think.

I tried the vegetarian diet years ago and I haven't gone back since. I made all the same rationales that everybody has different needs and tastes, and that one can survive off of fruits, veggies and grains alone. I suspect I'm still recovering from this episode in my life. There's no way I would recommend it to anybody else. That diet isn't designed for "humans", OSIT.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I followed this Sott article and discussion with interest. It really did rile some people up. The vegetarians really did not like their sacred cow to be slaughtered or BBQ' ed for that matter :). More seriously, I can only think that vegetarianism is central to their identity as a person. Vegetarianism seems to me to be not just about not eating meat, but all the other reasons put forward in Sao's post as well. If a person is a vegetarian they by extension are also some kind of new age renaissance person as well. Kind of gives someone an air of superiority. Take away the vegetarianism and you take away their feeling of being superior.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

aaron r said:
Kind of gives someone an air of superiority. Take away the vegetarianism and you take away their feeling of being superior.
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Looks like you've hit on an excellent definition of "sacred cow" :P
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Is the SOTT article being referred to this one http://www.sott.net/articles/show/218600-The-Naive-Vegetarian ?


I personally know someone who will say just about anything to justify her vegetarian stance and convince others of it's merit. And it is all dictated from Paris by her first art teacher.

I met another one a few years ago who was a Yoga instructor who also did the same but more adamantly in terms of convincing others to choose vegetarianism. If psuedo-ethical arguments didn't cut it, he would try health arguments and back and forth. The Yoga class lasted only a few weeks and I only saw him again once. The funny thing was that he kept forgetting his place a lot of times in class. So I wonder how much lacking crucial brain nutrients played a role in that.

The self-righteousness and sense of superiority is always present, but to varying degrees. Another, old gentleman, that's a friend of my parents and life long Yoga practitioner also has this sense of superiority and self-satisfaction, although this guy occasionally eats meat like once or twice a year for some reason. He does drink raw milk too but more often.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

svjetlonosa said:
Off with his head! – screamed the Queen of Hearts, and poor vegetarian lost his life for being different.

I think that everyone should respect other people's choices on food, sex, religion and many other important things in life. If someone has made different choices than ours that doesn't mean he/she is sick, self-discepted or similar. Some people just don't like meat because of its taste, some people don't like vegetable in general, or specific vegetable, and that's OK.
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The bottom line is this:
If your health is compromised - as the scientific evidence shows it WILL BE - by a vegetarian diet, then you are not optimally able to suss out your reality and/or respond to threats to your existence, the existence of your children, and the future of humanity.

"Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control the people" ~ Henry Kissinger
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

My mum is friends with a lady who was a family friend of a man called Fran Howard. Apparently Frank would sit up late at night and words would come into his head and he would write them down, according to my mum's friend. Some of "his" works included, "A Journey in Space with Alizantil" and "A Planetary Saga". It was all Great White Brotherhood disinformation stuff.


It was back in the late 80's I read these books. The love and light crowd really eat this kind of material up. As an impressionable 18 year old it had me going as well. Particularly as my mum's friend could vouch for it's authenticity. These books really laid on the vegetarian and not invoking extra karma from killing animals spiel. Which tied into the Earth changes and if you want to be saved, increase your light/vibration by becoming a vego


The couple of points I want to raise are: vegetarianism is promulgated Great White Brotherhood dudes, which cannot be good; and vegetarianism is wishful thinking. The love and light crowd have believed the lie that vegetarianism is a more spiritual practice. They are not as Laura said, properly sussing out reality.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

truth seeker said:
svjetlonosa said:
If the body is in a balance, it knows exactly what kind of food needs. Who would better know than the body/person? Someone else? No. It is not the knowledge talking saying that vegetarians have “a deep psychological problem”. It is a deep misunderstanding of different needs of different people; it is a matter of discrimination. Being a vegetarian or not, all people need sources of energy for living. Physical body needs physical food sources, astral/eteric body needs fine energy food and higher levels of a person, if developed, need even more sophisticated food source.
Click to expand...
In the first sentence bolded, I suppose that "if" would be the operative word. If the body is not in balance, but the person believes it is so then they might not know better. They would need to test foods individually in order to find out as opposed to cutting out an entire group of foods. If a person is a vegetarian and yet is consuming gluten, sugar, dairy, corn and soy which have been shown to be harmful to most if not all humans, their body is not in balance. In short, our individual thoughts regarding anything cannot be trusted.
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I also agree with truth seeker. We can only notice that we're in pain when we experience differently. In other words, we can very well believe that we're healthy, but without experiencing a different state, how can we know?

I also think that we often believe that we're healthy, because all of our beliefs about whatever it is that makes us feel healthy, can very well cause that placebo effect. So, I think it is just not that simple to trust one's body without some serious and critical experimenting.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I was also a vegetarian for about 7 years. My motivations at the time were mainly to do with horror at the meat industry, and the belief that it was healthier. But I mainly just ended up eating even more wheat than before, and gradually my health got worse. I eventually went to see a Chinese medicine doctor who told me flat out that I needed to start eating meat again. The first thing I ate was bacon, ( which seems quite common ) but I still didn't eat much meat at all.

That all changed when I got on the program, and I started eating more and more meat. Then, about 5 months ago, my husband quit the gluten and that really made it a thousand times easier because he got very involved in the meal planning, found an organic butcher and started bringing home all kinds of good meat like bison, elk, all sorts of stuff. Many a morning I'm chowing down on left over bison or whatever and loving it. So the whole family is eating meat and all of us feel great on it.
 
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

manitoban said:
I was also a vegetarian for about 7 years. My motivations at the time were mainly to do with horror at the meat industry, and the belief that it was healthier. But I mainly just ended up eating even more wheat than before, and gradually my health got worse. I eventually went to see a Chinese medicine doctor who told me flat out that I needed to start eating meat again. The first thing I ate was bacon, ( which seems quite common ) but I still didn't eat much meat at all.

That all changed when I got on the program, and I started eating more and more meat. Then, about 5 months ago, my husband quit the gluten and that really made it a thousand times easier because he got very involved in the meal planning, found an organic butcher and started bringing home all kinds of good meat like bison, elk, all sorts of stuff. Many a morning I'm chowing down on left over bison or whatever and loving it. So the whole family is eating meat and all of us feel great on it.
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Ditto. The unhealthiest phase of my life was when I was a vegetarian. No wonder, all my food intolerances are plant-derived, plus the dairy: gluten, spices, citrus fruits, sulfur containing veggies and so forth.

The Danger of Plant Foods

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?cat=29

Recently, an 88-year-old Chinese woman was brought to the emergency department at New York University’s Tisch Hospital by her family. She had been lethargic and unable to walk or swallow for 3 days. [1]

She had been eating 2 to 3 pounds of raw bok choy daily for several months in the hope that it would help control her diabetes, and the bok choy had poisoned her thyroid. In addition to coma, her symptoms included low body temperature (36 C), a shrunken thyroid, dry skin and coarse hair. Her life was saved by high doses of intravenous thyroid hormone, but she still needed four weeks in the hospital before she could be moved to a nursing facility.

Remarkably, but not surprisingly in light of how little publicity is given to the dangers of plant toxins, her family wanted to keep feeding her raw bok choy in the hospital! [2]

This episode is a timely reminder that most of the toxins in our bodies come from the plant foods we eat. Plant toxins can be quite dangerous.

For good health, exposure to plant toxins should be minimized by:

1. Cooking most plant foods other than fruits and berries, which are relatively non-toxic. The heat of cooking destroys many toxins, and renders many others more digestible.
2. Diversifying plant food sources. Don’t eat too much of any one plant; rather try to eat modest amounts from many different species. Live by the toxicologists’ rule, first formulated by Paracelsus: “The dose makes the poison.” If you keep the dose of any one toxin low, it will not poison you.
3. Eliminating the most toxic foods. These are grains; legumes; oils from grains, legumes, and seed crops; and fructose sugars.

The Paleo principle – it’s healthiest to eat like a caveman – is a good guide to low-toxicity eating. Paleolithic peoples gathered a wide variety of plants – hundreds of species – and did not eat the Neolithic agricultural crops. Agriculture needs plants that produce an abundance of calorie-rich seeds, but these are precisely the plants that load their seeds with high levels of toxins to discourage herbivores.

Eat like a caveman, and stay out of the hospital!

[1] Chu M, Seltzer TF. Myxedema coma induced by ingestion of raw bok choy. N Engl J Med. 2010 May 20;362(20):1945-6. http://pmid.us/20484407.

[2] http://www.aolhealth.com/2010/05/20/too-much-bok-choy-puts-88-year-old-in-coma/.
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Having quoted this, neither we nor the above source really advocates a low carb diet. There are many healthy sources of carbs available: buckwheat, quinoa, amaranth, wild rice, berries, and so forth.
 
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