The Vegetarian Myth

It is interesting to note that in many ancient myths, the civilizing Gods (Osiris, Yahweh, etc.) taught mankind agriculture. A poisonous gift indeed.
 
Certainly the Hopi have this motif. Their legends include emerging from a cave into the 'fourth world', being taught how to plant corn, and 'the peoples' being given a choice of what colour corn they would cultivate. Through choosing the smallest ear of blue corn, they brought themselves the most honour through humility, and were awarded the keeping of prophecies for all the native peoples. All of the aboriginal people I've met have the greatest respect for the Hopi elders. Their creation legends are very interesting, as they describe four cycles of world catastrophe, where the world turned over, just as Herodotus did in talking to the Egyptian priests.

You can see the effect of such a starchy diet on this tribe. Even the early photographs show a pretty solid body-type, though they seemed to do okay with their traditional diet, living fairly long lives. When they were introduced to refined carbohydrates and sugar, the rates of diabetes went through the roof, because their metabolisms were so sensitively tuned to cycles of feast and famine. It's really sad.

edit: added info
 
Gonzo said:
I imagine population swelled rather quickly after agriculture. So, if I were looking for ways of increasing a slave population or growing a bipedal food supply, convincing humans to adopt agriculture certainly would have done the job. Postulating "who benefits" reveals more than just a plan of psychopaths. I find it hard to believe a psychopath, in the time when we were hunter/gatherers, would have envisioned the end result over time of mass profits, devastation of the environment, and control of all humans. Perhaps I'm being naïve though. But it makes more sense that 4D STS used psychopaths to execute their plan.

Gonzo
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Makes sense to me. Not to mention the concept of land ownership, as if the earth was our own possession. IMHO it is likely that when people began to think in terms of possessing instead of cohabiting, trading and supporting as it happens when respecting nature's natural order, our dynamic towards Earth, each other, life itself, reversed 180degrees.

Something of such magnitude and with such devastating effects had to come from somewhere, likely 4D STS "inspired", as I see it. Mkrnhr's remarks about the gods seem to corroborate it.
 
This provokes me to want to interview elders from the various 1st nations in my area to see what their oral traditions carry vis a vis a "gift" of agriculture through the lens that the gift was actually given for nefarious purposes. I'd be quite interested in what their shamans think as well. Although I'm familiar with many of their creation stories and some of the characters in their oral traditions, I've never thought that their oral history might contain clues as to when 4D STS and/or psychopathy came into play (aside from the stories of European contact, that is)

The movement to agriculture would have affected nomadic tribes greatly, forcing them to find areas rich in hunting and fishing while also being able to sustain varying degrees of farming.

Having said that, I do wonder that if they were already gathering from the forest, would it not have been a natural process to eventually domesticate certain plants for medicinal and nutritional purposes. Are we to believe that we would never have done such a thing were it not for someone or some thing planting the seed (pun intended) of agriculture into our ancestors' minds?

Perhaps the manipulation was intensive farming as opposed to portable farming of grains. Just a thought, but maybe we were OK with one until it became the other, both of which are forms of agriculture. If so, perhaps we need to be more specific.

Gonzo

Edit: for clarity, punctuation, spelling
 
Gonzo said:
Having said that, I do wonder that if they were already gathering from the forest, would it not have been a natural process to eventually domesticate certain plants for medicinal and nutritional purposes. Are we to believe that we would never have done such a thing were it not for someone or some thing planting the seed (pun intended) of agriculture into our ancestors' minds?
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Well if the ancient people were living on a low-carb diet, there isn't much need for collecting plants in such a way that it would damage the earth, because I think that only a decent amount of plants was needed (for treating diseases perhaps). Plus, a low carb diet is being satisfied with ''little'' food.

Also I think that the ancient Shaman's idea of Nature was totally different than how people may see it now, they saw life in every thing that was, and respected it. So I don't think it would be a natural process (in this context) to start to "dominate" or domesticate other species, but rather to continue letting them be and using them with respect for the benefit of all. Basically learning to go along with whatever is growing at whatever time of the year. I mean, if all is good and understood and respected, why change?

So I think that somewhere along the line, the whole idea of having respect for Nature and all there is, got lost and people got influenced negatively by psychopaths, and everything went downhill after that. Instead of nurturing others, people started to seek control over others. Whether it is the earth, plants or anything.

Just some thoughts, and I think the idea of interviewing sounds interesting!
 
Hi Oxajil,

I know I'm having difficulty imagining what we would have been like as hunter gatherers, but I'm also having trouble with some of your assumptions regarding our stone age ancestors.

Oxajil said:
Gonzo said:
Having said that, I do wonder that if they were already gathering from the forest, would it not have been a natural process to eventually domesticate certain plants for medicinal and nutritional purposes. Are we to believe that we would never have done such a thing were it not for someone or some thing planting the seed (pun intended) of agriculture into our ancestors' minds?
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Well if the ancient people were living on a low-carb diet, there isn't much need for collecting plants in such a way that it would damage the earth, because I think that only a decent amount of plants was needed (for treating diseases perhaps). Plus, a low carb diet is being satisfied with ''little'' food.
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The low carb diet might have been our mainstay, but I imagine animals might not always have been as plentiful as needed, as evidenced by our bodies developing a system to handle fasting. In those times, we probably had to travel quite far to find a herd of animals to hunt and had to eat plants along the way to supplement ourselves, especially if the dried meat ran out. Our carb intake would probably have been much higher during those times.

[quote author=Oxajil]
Also I think that the ancient Shaman's idea of Nature was totally different than how people may see it now, they saw life in every thing that was, and respected it. So I don't think it would be a natural process (in this context) to start to "dominate" or domesticate other species, but rather to continue letting them be and using them with respect for the benefit of all. Basically learning to go along with whatever is growing at whatever time of the year. I mean, if all is good and understood and respected, why change?

So I think that somewhere along the line, the whole idea of having respect for Nature and all there is, got lost and people got influenced negatively by psychopaths, and everything went downhill after that. Instead of nurturing others, people started to seek control over others. Whether it is the earth, plants or anything.
[/quote]

One of the reasons I think I'm having trouble with this is because I imagine we've probably been thrown back to the stone age a few times in our long history and we may have had varying degrees of ponerization at different times. The shaman may not have always been as harmonious with creation as you suggest and, if/when he was, a tribe might not have always had the same level of reverence for the shaman or his views on harmony. By then we were already STS, weren't we? After all, if we were STO, I didn't think we would be hunting or gathering at all.

Granted, shamans would have had a strong connection with, and respect for, creation. However, if on his long voyages to visit another tribe and their shaman (assuming they did such things), was introduced to a valuable medicine plant that was rare in his nomadic range, it might have made sense for him to uproot a few and replant closer to his home range. That might not be agriculture, but I consider it a form of domestication.

As well, certain beneficial plant foods might have been found growing in dangerous areas, whether the danger be predators or merely a precarious location. It might have made sense to move a few to a safer area for replanting. These are merely suppositions on my part, so I welcome any insight.

However, I can also see that, if we were mostly nomadic, following herds of animals, planting our favorite foods in one place wouldn't make sense since we wouldn't be staying there. But I can see some value in wanting to ensure an even distribution of certain essential plants and we may have seen an advantage in planting or seeding to ensure that.

Again, I'm not confident in my line of thinking but I thought it worthy of putting it out there.

[quote author=Oxajil]
Just some thoughts, and I think the idea of interviewing sounds interesting!
[/quote]

I have a couple of contacts for a few reservations in the area. Not sure how receptive they might be to this sort of thing though. We recently lost a popular Algonquin elder, William Commanda, earlier this month and several elders came to the area to pay their respects. Were it not disrespectful, it would have been a great opportunity to meet some of the keepers of the oral tradition and make inquiries.

Gonzo

(for those interested in learning about Grandfather Commanda: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Commanda).
 
I just finished reading this great book, and I wrote a review on Amazon:

Lierre Keith did not have to convince me to eat meat. I was a vegetarian for the puny number of 3 years, yet that was enough to compromise my health for many years to come. Consuming all those whole grains, the sugars, the tofu fries and tofu dogs, the soya milk and every other bad tasting “health” food that went with my new belief in vegetarianism, led me to feel for the first time at the age of 23 what pre-menstrual pain meant. And we are talking of debilitating pain. Nobody was able to explain to me why it started then – it’s just hormonal imbalance, said my gynecologist. But what caused this hormonal imbalance that makes it feel like a war is waged in my ovaries, with a high number of casualties? Thanks to Lierre’s thorough research, now I know. A decade later, and my hormones have yet to find their balance. But meat and fat are the stables in my diet now, so I am crossing my fingers.

Lierre did not have to convince me either, of the cycle of life and death. As a child, I’ve seen my mother kill our chickens and ducks, the ones that run free in our land behind the house in the Mediterranean village I grew up, and served them for dinner. The same fate followed my grandfather’s goats and my aunt’s rabbits. And we were strong children, me and my brother and our multiple cousins, playng out in the fields and by the beach all day, yet never throwing tantrums or crying for nothing. And I don’t blame the children of today for their emotional fragility or their tantrums, I don’t even blame their parents, for I am sure they want the best for their kids. But since this book is now available, it is their responsibility to read it and educate themselves, because big-pharma-paid doctors, ain’t going to do it for you, sorry. And I can recommend a stuck of books on nutrition, low carb diets, full of real information, from true studies and research too: Life without Bread, Primal Body Primal Mind, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living, to name but a few. What really makes the Vegetarian Myth my personal favorite however, though it doesn’t go in detail into the science and planning for a low carb diet, is that the author pours herself in her book and she takes me along with her. Not only did she do her studies before she presented them to us (13 pages of bibliography), she walked the bridge less traveled, the one spread between veganism and carnivorism, stretching from the grey land of the barely living to the land of sustainability and health, herself. And she now tells us, in a book that’s half science and half prayer, sometimes speaking for the Earth herself to ask for our help.

What Lierre taught me that I didn’t know, was the heartbreaking truth of the damage we have inflicted, as agriculture loving civilization, to the ecosystem, our Earth, our home. I cried for the dead rivers, the lost animal species, the sacred topsoil that is thinning away. I came out of the book with a profound respect for the intelligence of the nature that envelops us and sustains us, and yet we brutally maim it. I cried because I read that my homeland, a water depleted, desert-like island, used to be full of trees some centuries ago. And I got livid at the lies that our governments, the medical establishment and the media feed us with, along with poisonous food, so that they keep their pockets full of money. The sicker we get, the wealthier they get.

I don’t know whether the world can change, but I know that this book changed me, and I will never forget to respect my food from now on, I will never again forget the evils of agriculture and I will always recognize the diseases of civilization. So I invite everyone, I actually plead everyone, vegetarian, vegan or not, to read this book, so that more of us know. And when enough of us do, perhaps the Big Corporation predators will grow smaller and poorer, while the Earth grows wealthier again.
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One thing that struck me was her descriptions on how we (psychopaths mostly, and then those who bought their tale) somehow thought ourselves owners and masters of this vast, intelligent nature that surrounds us and is able to feed us and protect us all if we let it. But no, psychopaths are all about controlling, using, and profiting for themselves, without any regard of consequences or the future. And it did remind me of Gurdjieff's story of the magician. Reading also In an unspoken voice, or the polyvagal theory, it brings it home that we are in dire need to come back to our bodies, our true human nature, that pathological psychological & medical theories drove us away from and into fantasy world. Because some were convinced somehow that they were magicians, or kings, and they convinced the rest of us the same. When we are just human beings :love:
 
What an excellent review, Alana. I was quite moved by it. You not only say how great the book is but you also explain why it matters. I think your eloquence will encourage many who read your review to invest themselves into the book.

I really liked the way you worked in the other books too.
You certainly have a knack for the written word.
Gonzo
 
Alana said:
I just finished reading this great book, and I wrote a review on Amazon:
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Brilliant review Alana; The Vegetarian Myth really deserves reviews like that. Thanks for sharing that one!!
 
Gonzo said:
Having said that, I do wonder that if they were already gathering from the forest, would it not have been a natural process to eventually domesticate certain plants for medicinal and nutritional purposes. Are we to believe that we would never have done such a thing were it not for someone or some thing planting the seed (pun intended) of agriculture into our ancestors' minds?
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Of course, we will never know, will we? But why would someone who lives so close and in tune with nature and being in step with her, want to all of a sudden start controlling her? And why would a people who, it has been said in several books and articles, quit a life where they are only working getting food for approximately 17 hours a week, want to start doing such back breaking work of planting, watering weeding and then harvesting these things that can be found in the areas they live in growing naturally?

Maybe you are correct and this evolved naturally, but I just can't understand why they would even want to do this. But that's just me.
 
Laura said:
Meager1 said:
Ok, will do. I have never eaten a lot of bacon or pork, but I`ll get some today.
And load up on the butter too. Thanks.
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Think "pork" all the time instead of beef.

Eat calves liver if you can find some that is good and fresh.

Bacon and pork sausages every morning! Eggs drenched in butter.
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I read this thread today, well I´ve never been Vegetarian I like eat meat every day all my life despite Im type A, I´ve Always thought that my gut problems was because of the meat but the last year I took away all gluten and dairy soy and all those alergy foods the only choice I had was meat & salad and beans, but there are beans that floated my stomach so I quit them , all my problems in joints muscle stomach legs have gone!!!!! I have more energy with my full breakfast bacon eggs or sausages.

The food I´ve have eating is "platano verde" with meat , and It felt good for me but I would like to know if it is right to eat it, I dont have clear the ketosis thing yet!!!! I could not read the book yet. :P
 
Ground pork makes a good burger if you ask the butcher to add extra fat into the grind.
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I have been cooking with pork fat, since I could not get another fat just olive but do preffer to cook with the pork fat.

I have to do my own Ground pork!!! :P No body sold around here :cry:
 
Laura said:
The only thing I can figure out for those of you with constipation problems is that you must not be getting enough fat. I suffered from the now well-known effects of too much fiber backing me up for nearly my entire life. In the past three months or so, since I've got mostly meat and high fat, I haven't had a single problem. If I don't go, I sit down and eat a few very thin slices of serrano ham (prosciutto) spread with butter. That fixes me right up.
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We have two kind of butter what is the right one: the butter that is made with milk or the another that is made with vegetable oil? :huh: :huh:
 
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