Are You Getting Enough Sleep? Sleeping properly?

[Megan]

1.  No one has ever died from or become ill from lack of sleep. The body and mind will get at least the minimum amount of sleep that it needs, no matter what. If you lose some sleep one night, the next night you will get some additional sleep to make up the loss.

Lots of people die from falling asleep at the wheel. Yeah, you'll get the minimum sleep you need, IF you live long enough to wake up again. So was the entire list as well-researched as item #1? It is very easy to make things up and post them on the Internet. It's also pretty easy to see, without conducting randomized trials, that sleep loss can affect your health and that the effects can be cumulative if it continues. And if you don't believe that those effects count as "ill," it can impair your immune system and you can certainly become ill then. (My reference: I've been there and done all that, except for actually falling asleep at the wheel.)

Lying to yourself is not the answer. Sleep loss is a problem, and it can have serious consequences. Worrying about the consequences doesn't help, though. Sometime you just have to BE in the state that you are in order to let go and allow that state to pass.

[Prodigal Son]

I'm not anxious, I'm just worried about this issue. Regarding the thought loops, it can be about anything : things I've planned to do, a book I read... But most of the time, it's completely abstract, a white noise, like TV static.

Well the trick is to occupy your mind with thoughts that you do want to have, rather than have the machine running the whole time. When you use the Prayer of the Soul at night, try learning the text by heart so that you can rite it to yourself, rather than playing it and having Laura read the prayer to you. The point being that if your reciting the words to yourself, you can't think the other thought loops at the same time.

To add to this you can still measure and observe your breathing, cna better still, if you don't have headphones on or a CD player running you are much better able to listen to the sound of your breathing and concentrate on that too. Before POTS you can do the same for pipe breathing, count the timing of the breaths (6-3-9-3) to yourself, count on your fingers if you have to which I do sometimes, or another way I like to do it is to visualize dots for each part of the count, building up patterns like the dots on face of a dice. That way, if you're visualizing dots (occupying one part of the mind), reciting the prayer (another part of the mind)m listening to the sound of your breathing (another part), paying attention to your body, its level of relaxation, the belly breathing, and so on, there's plenty to keep the mind occupied.

It suggests that in order to fully relax, we have to make a little effort. Practice is key too, if the mind wanders, thoughts come along, you lose count or lose your place in the prayer, it doesn't matter just start again trying to build the level of concentration/attention you give to it. Its a great way to use the time in bed to relax and drop off.

If your lying there worrying about how your not getting to sleep (aside any major influences which would be understandably harder to shake), then perhaps you're missing the opportunity to help yourself and switch your mind over to something more conducive to relaxation?

...

I can confirm that the suggestions given above work, I have done this for quite some time now. 

...

Are you able to meditate at all?  It takes a lot of practice and, for some of us, much more than others, to still the mind. But once we've grown accustomed to it, we can use that skill whenever we need to, like when we're trying to sleep and our mind continues to work.

Speaking of which, our minds will continue to look for opportunities to plan or solve and, if we don't give ourselves enough time to do so, we may find our mind tries to work on issues or plans when we would rather it not. If there's a chance part of your mind does not feel you have given adequate time to a plan or a problem, perhaps you could set aside some time in the evening to go over the very things your mind tosses over when you are trying to sleep. Perhaps this approach would send a signal to the mind to not worry, you are taking care of business.

...

This works for me too.  Something else you may like to consider is that the thoughts you have in the last ten minutes before sleep and the first ten minutes on awakening are very powerful - use the time wisely - reciting PotS during this time is beneficial. 

There is a post by Laura about meditating, basically doing 25 pipe-breaths as a means of quieting the Predator's Mind (self-talk), before beginning the 'content' of the meditation, you can evewn recite PotS during this first part too. 

    I'm not anxious, I'm just worried about this issue. Regarding the thought loops, it can be about anything : things I've planned to do, a book I read... But most of the time, it's completely abstract, a white noise, like TV static.

You may like to concentrate on one thought loo that arises - consciously - and ask yourself, 'What triggered this thought loop?'  What am I observing about this ...?'  'What stands out?'  'What do I feel, and where?'  'Whose voice do I recognise as 'providing' this thought loop?'  'What comes to mind with this 'person?' 

[Tomek]

So, can I ask what you are eating? When are you eating food? How much food are you eating? Are you taking things to aid digestion? Any digestive discomfort (bloating, fatigue etc)?

Here's my meal schedule

Breakfast : 7am, right after getting out of bed
2 scramble eggs with a generous amount of butter and pink salt
3 slices of bacon, cooked with butter and goose fat
1/4 cup of coffee. Going cold turkey with coffee is nearly impossible, and it might be my last week with coffee.
2 teaspoons of coconul oil
Supplements : Vitamin B, Potassium, Zinc, L-Carnitine, Spirulina, Cod liver oil, Vitamin D, Milk thistle, Alphalipoic acid

Lunch : 12.30am
pork rib loin
Small amount of vegetables (usually, brocolis, cauliflowers), or very small amount of potatoes/green beans
With a lot of butter, pink salt and some goose fat.
Supplements : Spirulina, L-Carnitine, Vitamin D

Diner : 18.30pm
Variable : calf liver once or twice a week, or chopped steak prepared with goose fat and an yolk
Very small amount of veggies (Brocolis, spinach, green beans), mostly as an excuse to pour more butter in my plate
2 teaspoons of coconut oil
Supplements : Spirulina, Vitamin D

During the day : a 2L bottle of filtered water, mixed with ascorbic acid (10g), pink salt and potassium
5*100mg of magnesium bisglycinate
And American Spirit tobacco, of course 

Before going to bed : melatonin, L-Trytophan, 5-HTP.
(but I'll try without them from now)

I'm not taking digestive enzymes, and I don't feel any digestive discomfort as far as I can tell. Usually I'm not hungry for lunch, and I start to feel slightly hungry around 18pm.

I'm at work, I'll answer to your posts during the day. Thanks, all of you, to give your time & energy in order to helping me. 

[anart]

1.  No one has ever died from or become ill from lack of sleep. The body and mind will get at least the minimum amount of sleep that it needs, no matter what. If you lose some sleep one night, the next night you will get some additional sleep to make up the loss.

Lots of people die from falling asleep at the wheel. Yeah, you'll get the minimum sleep you need, IF you live long enough to wake up again. So was the entire list as well-researched as item #1? It is very easy to make things up and post them on the Internet. It's also pretty easy to see, without conducting randomized trials, that sleep loss can affect your health and that the effects can be cumulative if it continues. And if you don't believe that those effects count as "ill," it can impair your immune system and you can certainly become ill then. (My reference: I've been there and done all that, except for actually falling asleep at the wheel.)

Lying to yourself is not the answer. Sleep loss is a problem, and it can have serious consequences. Worrying about the consequences doesn't help, though. Sometime you just have to BE in the state that you are in order to let go and allow that state to pass.

I couldn't agree more.  Plus, you don't 'make up sleep lost' the next night.  It doesn't work that way.  Lost sleep is simply lost. Sleep affects everything - immune system, metabolism, cognition, DNA repair - everything.

[Mrs. Peel]

Well the trick is to occupy your mind with thoughts that you do want to have, rather than have the machine running the whole time. When you use the Prayer of the Soul at night, try learning the text by heart so that you can rite it to yourself, rather than playing it and having Laura read the prayer to you. The point being that if your reciting the words to yourself, you can't think the other thought loops at the same time.

This is what I do.  For the last month or so, I've been having trouble falling asleep.  I can be tired, but five minutes after my head hits the pillow, something shifts in my mind and I'm awake.  Although I've always woken up during the night, now when I do, I can't go back to sleep.  I will recite the POS over and over in my head, do some deep breathing, or try and think of any mundane thing to occupy my mind other than "you-better-fall-asleep-cause-you-gotta-get-up-for-work-in-a-couple-hours."  Sometimes I will try and remember trival stuff from the past, say what my first house looked like.  I'll mentally go through the rooms and try and remember what color the walls were, how it was decorated, etc.  Or I'll try and remember a movie, or TV show, scene by scene.

You get the idea.  You have to take your mind off not being able to sleep, but not by thinking about your "problems".   

[Megan]

If you are into self-experimentation, observation, and measurement, this article contains some ideas:
How to Conduct a Personal Experiment: Biphasic Sleeping
_http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-conduct-a-personal-experiment-biphasic-sleeping

We have discussed biphasic sleep previously on the forum. My own experience is that when I go to bed early in order to get "enough" sleep, I awake in the early morning, far short of my scheduled time. If I find a low-light activity to keep me occupied for an hour or two, I fall back asleep and finish out the night's sleep. The problem, as the article points out, is that doing this doesn't fit well within my workday. 

I think I am going, at least for a while, to quit fighting the tendency (by staying up later in order to sleep straight through) and try for a better fit between biphasic sleep and the rest of my life.

[Tomek]

If you are into self-experimentation, observation, and measurement, this article contains some ideas:
How to Conduct a Personal Experiment: Biphasic Sleeping
_http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-conduct-a-personal-experiment-biphasic-sleeping

I can't afford a 90 minutes nap during the day. We have a rest room at work, where I spend 30-40 minutes after lunch for pipe breathing and PotS, but that's all.

Well the trick is to occupy your mind with thoughts that you do want to have, rather than have the machine running the whole time. When you use the Prayer of the Soul at night, try learning the text by heart so that you can rite it to yourself, rather than playing it and having Laura read the prayer to you. The point being that if your reciting the words to yourself, you can't think the other thought loops at the same time.

(...)

Yes, that's what I'm trying to do : adding several "inputs" to keep the mind busy. It currently requires a lot of efforts to not letting my mind wander, and to not succumb to the urge to sleep, but in my current conditions, super-efforts are certainly required, like an engine who needs a good kick/starter !

I didn't take any of my night supplements yesterday, it didn't change anything, so I'll just drop them off. I went to bed at 10.30pm, I  woke up around 2.30am with, as usual, an intense urge to go to the bathroom. I don't understand why I need to urinate that much every night, because I don't drink a drop of water after my lunch (6.30pm). Could it be related to some "water retention" and potassium intakes during the keto adaptation (despite the fact that I go to the bahtroom 5-6 times a day) ? I thought I read that somewhere...

[RedFox]

I didn't take any of my night supplements yesterday, it didn't change anything, so I'll just drop them off. I went to bed at 10.30pm, I  woke up around 2.30am with, as usual, an intense urge to go to the bathroom. I don't understand why I need to urinate that much every night, because I don't drink a drop of water after my lunch (6.30pm). Could it be related to some "water retention" and potassium intakes during the keto adaptation (despite the fact that I go to the bahtroom 5-6 times a day) ? I thought I read that somewhere...

I use to have this happen a lot. First thing is, it ok to wake up - there is nothing necessarily wrong with it. If I am extra rested I will wake up more often during the middle of the night, have a period in the darkness of deep rest full contemplation then drift back to sleep.
As to needing to urinate - it may be worth dropping the spirrulina and vit D from the evening meal, and perhaps eating a little less protien. You could also take milk thistle as it will aid digestion - poor digestion can lead to needing to get up to urinate during the night as the food takes a few more hours than it should to get processed.

One thing I do note is you are not taking any omega 3, this may be a contributing factor.

I find that if I need to get up to urinate in the night, it is usually to do with stress levels (emotional or physical, such as sleeping in a room that is too cold or hot), or detox. If I take things that help the body detox in the evening, this will wake me up with the need to urinate.

As you smoke, do you have a cigarette last thing before bed? This can help you sleep. If I find myself I've woken up and am emotionally stressed I will sometimes go outside (the cold air helps) and have a cigarette. Being outside at night can help reset things and send you back to sleep.

[Megan]

I can't afford a 90 minutes nap during the day. We have a rest room at work, where I spend 30-40 minutes after lunch for pipe breathing and PotS, but that's all...

Napping during the day is not biphasic sleep. I do use the modified variant intermittently, when I can't sleep at night and when there is an opportunity to take a nap during the day, but I don't recommend it, other than as a way to avoid cumulative sleep loss. But "modified" biphasic sleep was an aside in the article, not the main point and not recommended.

[LQB]

This may help: From Peter Levine's Unspoken Voice

However, approaches that attempt to tame the restless mind may not be nearly as accessible or effective as those that help us return to our bodies in a sustaining way.

The context of the quote is in regards to negative thought loops and their sources (disconnections across the three brains) but it suggests that a concentration of body awareness before sleep may help. Maybe even a light meditation directed at connection across the three brains (reptilian/stem, limbic/emotional, and higher) at the point where the two higher brains fold over the front in close proximity to the stem.

[LQB]

A friend sent me a link to a very interesting paper. It is 18 pages so I'll just post the abstract and the link:

The effect of earthing (grounding) on human physiology

Gaétan Chevalier1, Kazuhito Mori2, and James L. Oschman3
1 California Institute for Human Science, Graduate School & Research Center, Encinitas, CA
2 California Institute for Human Science, Graduate School & Research Center, Encinitas, CA
3 Nature’s Own Research Association, Dover, NH
Corresponding Author: Gaétan Chevalier

Abstract
Previous research (12) showed that connecting the human body to the earth during sleep normalizes
circadian cortisol profiles and reduces or eliminates various subjectively reported symptoms, including
sleep dysfunction, pain and stress. We therefore hypothesized that earthing might also influence other
aspects of physiology. Fifty-eight healthy adult subjects (30 controls) participated in a double blind
pilot study. Earthing was accomplished with a conductive adhesive patch placed on the sole of each
foot. An earthing cord led outdoors to a rod driven into the earth. A biofeedback system recorded
electrophysiological and physiological parameters. Upon earthing, about half the experimental
subjects showed an abrupt, almost instantaneous change in root mean square (rms) values of
electroencephalograms (EEG) from the left hemisphere (but not the right hemisphere) and all of them
presented an abrupt change in rms values of surface electromyograms (SEMGs) from right and left
upper trapezius muscles. Signal variance in rms muscle potentials also increased significantly.
Earthing decreased blood volume pulse (BVP) in 19 of 22 experimental subjects (p < 0.001) and in 8
of 30 controls (p ≅ 0.1, not significant); heart rate (HR) was not affected. From these results, it appears
that earthing the human body has significant effects on electrophysiological properties of the brain and
musculature, on the blood volume pulse, and on the noise and stability of electrophysiological
recordings. Taken together, the changes in EEG, EMG, and BVP suggest reductions in overall stress
levels and tensions, and a shift in autonomic balance upon earthing. The results therefore extend the
conclusions of the previous study (12).

The entire paper is at:  _http://humanscience.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/efx_science_physiology.pdf

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but it looks pretty good.

It would be nice to figure out an easy way to do this like connecting receptacle ground to a thin conducting mattress pad. This may also have application to our research into leptin reset/CT/ketosis.

[Tomek]

I use to have this happen a lot. First thing is, it ok to wake up - there is nothing necessarily wrong with it. If I am extra rested I will wake up more often during the middle of the night, have a period in the darkness of deep rest full contemplation then drift back to sleep.
As to needing to urinate - it may be worth dropping the spirrulina and vit D from the evening meal, and perhaps eating a little less protien. You could also take milk thistle as it will aid digestion - poor digestion can lead to needing to get up to urinate during the night as the food takes a few more hours than it should to get processed.

One thing I do note is you are not taking any omega 3, this may be a contributing factor.

I find that if I need to get up to urinate in the night, it is usually to do with stress levels (emotional or physical, such as sleeping in a room that is too cold or hot), or detox. If I take things that help the body detox in the evening, this will wake me up with the need to urinate.

As you smoke, do you have a cigarette last thing before bed? This can help you sleep. If I find myself I've woken up and am emotionally stressed I will sometimes go outside (the cold air helps) and have a cigarette. Being outside at night can help reset things and send you back to sleep.

The cod liver oil supplements I'm taking contains some DHA and EPA, but I avoid to take too much of them, an excess of vitamin A is not a good thing. So I bought Omega 3 supplements from Nature's Plus yesterday. We'll see.

And, yes, I often have a last cigarette before bed. It helps a bit to fall asleep, but my problem is not that I have trouble to fall asleep. I'll try to smoke a cig next time I'll wake up in the middle of the night. Thanks for your inputs, RedFox.

[Seamas]

If you are into self-experimentation, observation, and measurement, this article contains some ideas:
How to Conduct a Personal Experiment: Biphasic Sleeping
_http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-conduct-a-personal-experiment-biphasic-sleeping

We have discussed biphasic sleep previously on the forum. My own experience is that when I go to bed early in order to get "enough" sleep, I awake in the early morning, far short of my scheduled time. If I find a low-light activity to keep me occupied for an hour or two, I fall back asleep and finish out the night's sleep. The problem, as the article points out, is that doing this doesn't fit well within my workday. 

I think I am going, at least for a while, to quit fighting the tendency (by staying up later in order to sleep straight through) and try for a better fit between biphasic sleep and the rest of my life.

I saw this article yesterday too.  I think I'm going to experiment with it.

A friend sent me a link to a very interesting paper. It is 18 pages so I'll just post the abstract and the link:

[...]

The entire paper is at:  _http://humanscience.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/efx_science_physiology.pdf

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but it looks pretty good.

How interesting!  I've been on some long camping trips and a few meditation retreats where I slept on the hard ground for 10 days or 2 weeks at a time.  During the meditation retreats I was inside, but on a tiled concrete floor.  The quality of my sleep and the frequency and intensity of my dreams increased while the length of time I needed to sleep decreased over the course of the 10 day retreat.  At the time my hypothesis was that the hard surface stimulated a relaxation response in my body by providing a "mirror" or biofeedback loop, but maybe there was enough conductivity through the concrete/stone to create a grounding circuit as well.  I think this experiment would need to be conducted separately from the biphasic sleep experiment.  Too many variables otherwise. 

It would be nice to figure out an easy way to do this like connecting receptacle ground to a thin conducting mattress pad. This may also have application to our research into leptin reset/CT/ketosis.

A quick search for "earthing mattress pad" turned up a bunch of products ranging from ~$120 to ~$270.  I also found a website that sells conductive fabrics: _http://lessemf.com/fabric.html. 

What about using a grounded piece of fine copper screen or mesh under the mattress pad?

[Mrs. Peel]

A friend sent me a link to a very interesting paper. It is 18 pages so I'll just post the abstract and the link:

[...]

The entire paper is at:  _http://humanscience.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/efx_science_physiology.pdf

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but it looks pretty good.

How interesting!  I've been on some long camping trips and a few meditation retreats where I slept on the hard ground for 10 days or 2 weeks at a time.   

Two nights ago I got a stool and sat outside in my bare feet on a patch of grass for about a half hour or more, at dusk.  While I still woke up multiple times during the night, I was able to go back to sleep.  Not sure if it was a coincidence of not.  I'm going to try doing it more.

[LQB]

It would be nice to figure out an easy way to do this like connecting receptacle ground to a thin conducting mattress pad. This may also have application to our research into leptin reset/CT/ketosis.

A quick search for "earthing mattress pad" turned up a bunch of products ranging from ~$120 to ~$270.  I also found a website that sells conductive fabrics: _http://lessemf.com/fabric.html. 

What about using a grounded piece of fine copper screen or mesh under the mattress pad?

Yes, you beat me to the next step    lessemf has several conducting fabrics that might do the job. You would want something that can be pulled tight under the bedsheet, put an alligator clip on it, and run the wire to receptacle ground. The only concern I have with that is that you make sure your wiring is up to code, and that there are no neutral paths to ground (can be tested with a gauss meter). Also, in case of an electrical storm, you would want to unclip the connection - just to be safe. You could also just run a separate wire from a new ground rod outside - eliminating any worry about the house wiring.

Doing it this way should be essentially the same as sleeping directly on the ground.