"Life Without Bread"

dugdeep said:
Ketoacidosis doesn't occur until well over 20mmol/L and Gawan is right - it involves having both high blood sugar and high ketones at once, something that can only happen in diabetics.
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Thanks for the comprehensive explanation dugdeep. My ketone test is still indicating high levels (8mmol/L) but I've not yet upped the carbs.
 
RedFox said:
Thor said:
I was thinking to make a vegetable broth to ensure that I get some nutrients.
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You might want to consider a bone and/or organ meat broth instead (add some salt). No carbs and as many nutrients as the vegetable one (plus lots of fat from the bone marrow).
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RedFox, that was a fantastic suggestion. I had bought a 13-pound of meat that I wanted to mince but before doing that I had to cut all the sinews off. I took these (about 2.5 lbs) and bought some bone marrow along with some regular bones and let it boil gently for four hours. I added some salt, pepper, garlic, fennel seeds and two small onions. Oh, my God, was that deliciuos! :P :P. It was so fat and filling and satisfying and the sinewy meat was tender as can be, literally falling apart at the smallest chew. And now I have enough to last me at least 8 meals. I will definitely do that again :)
 
Psyche said:
You all remember to drink enough water to avoid dehydration. We can loose much water retention when we release it through the urine when insulin is not triggered like crazy on a low carb diet. In the article of tips for keptoadaptation by Michael Eades he goes into some detail about his experiences of not drinking enough water:

What this study shows is that dehydration does indeed have the capacity to affect brain function and mood, and therefore it pays to stay topped up with water. Our requirements for water vary according to a variety of factors including weather, temperature, how active we are, how much we sweat and how much water we get via what we eat. A good guide, in terms of water intake, is to drink enough to keep urine pale yellow in colour throughout the course of the day.
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Okay, this is something that sounds understandable with the urine color, cause I wondered already how much is enough. So thanks, for the reference.

Psyche said:
dugdeep said:
Incidentally, I'm getting all this from a book called "The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet). It's a very scientific look at the ketogenic diet, going right into the biochemistry details; includes over 600 references. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to go into the kind of detail this author goes into, but for nutrition nerds (like me :D) it's a great read. I've just been reading while waiting for "Art and Science..." to arrive.
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600 references :wow: I'm getting it! ;)
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:D On amazon the book is much more expensive, to what I have seen, from about 70€ and upwards. So the page Doug provided seems very useful for that matter.
 
Gertrudes said:
dugdeep said:
Ketoacidosis doesn't occur until well over 20mmol/L and Gawan is right - it involves having both high blood sugar and high ketones at once, something that can only happen in diabetics.
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Thanks for the comprehensive explanation dugdeep. My ketone test is still indicating high levels (8mmol/L) but I've not yet upped the carbs.
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Yeah, that is helpful. My test is still showing the same as yours Gertrudes, (8 also).
 
Gawan said:
:D On amazon the book is much more expensive, to what I have seen, from about 70€ and upwards. So the page Doug provided seems very useful for that matter.
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Yes, the book is very expensive on amazon! A pity, since it appears to be a really interesting book.

It seems that Lyle Macdonald (the author) has a very critical attitude towards Gary Taubes (author of Good calories, Bad calories).

There is a comment on his page:

_http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet said:
John on January 15th, 2010 6:31 pm
What is your opinion of the book Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes?
Thanks

lylemcd on January 15th, 2010 10:11 pm
His entire hypothesis is nonsense.
_http://www.thebsdetective.com/2009/10/bullshitter-of-day-oct-7th-gary-taubes.html
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I have not yet read the whole material in the link he provided.

Edit: clarity
 
Gertrudes said:
It seems that Lyle Macdonald (the author) has a very critical attitude towards Gary Taubes (author of Good calories, Bad calories).

There is a comment on his page:

_http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet said:
John on January 15th, 2010 6:31 pm
What is your opinion of the book Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes?
Thanks

lylemcd on January 15th, 2010 10:11 pm
His entire hypothesis is nonsense.
_http://www.thebsdetective.com/2009/10/bullshitter-of-day-oct-7th-gary-taubes.html
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It seems that the author of that comment is James Krieger and not Lyle McDonald.
 
Psyche said:
Gertrudes said:
It seems that Lyle Macdonald (the author) has a very critical attitude towards Gary Taubes (author of Good calories, Bad calories).

There is a comment on his page:

_http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet said:
John on January 15th, 2010 6:31 pm
What is your opinion of the book Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes?
Thanks

lylemcd on January 15th, 2010 10:11 pm
His entire hypothesis is nonsense.
_http://www.thebsdetective.com/2009/10/bullshitter-of-day-oct-7th-gary-taubes.html
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It seems that the author of that comment is James Krieger and not Lyle McDonald.
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I think it's important also, to say that Lyle McDonald isn't coming from the same place we are. His book is very thorough and scientific and tells you everything you want to know about the ketogenic diet from a biochemistry perspective, but to him the diet is a tool. He's mainly a body composition, weight lifter type. To him the ideal human diet is one that maximizes lean muscle gains and fat loss, not one that minimizes toxicity, heals inflammation, eliminates food allergies, leads to DNA changes, etc. It's not where we're coming from at all (nothing about paleo diets, modern toxicity or the evils of the modern diet). There's even sections in the book about carb loading before exercise and how to eventually come off of a ketogenic diet; stuff we're not interested in. A good portion of the book is also on exercise physiology - very interesting, but not totally relevant.

So it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't see eye to eye with Taubes. I've found a lot of weight lifters love carbs to fuel their workouts and mention they don't get as good a performance in their workouts when in ketosis. Completely different mindset from us (more fueled by vanity, IMO). But if you're interested in the nitty gritty of the biochemistry, the book is quite useful, at least in part.
 
Question.

I've read Life Without Bread and kept up with all the threads here and in the Vegetarian Myth (which I've now also read) and am wondering if we HAVE to eat carbs?

I stopped eating any carbs a few weeks ago because I was still having cravings. The last thing I gave up was stevia and since then, no cravings for can carbs at all. I simply do not want them.

So is eating no carbs a problem?

I'm still taking vit C, potassium, lots of salt, both in food and in water, and magnesium (plus quite a few supplements which I am slowly weaning off of).
 
I stopped eating any carbs a few weeks ago because I was still having cravings. The last thing I gave up was stevia and since then, no cravings for can carbs at all. I simply do not want them.
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Same here. The very thought of carbs has become somewhat repulsive, since I`ve been off of them for awhile. I have added a little broccoli to the all meat diet just within the past couple days and so far have not noticed any adverse effect, but it was a matter of forcing myself to do it since paleo`s probably did eat some green things and berries in season, occasionally.

I also made another batch of clarified butter, but this time I added a small amount of fresh basil leaf to the final product for added flavor and have no problem with this either.

But as stated previously, I feel better then I have in 30 years so I`m not going to do much experimenting!
 
Nienna Eluch said:
I've read Life Without Bread and kept up with all the threads here and in the Vegetarian Myth (which I've now also read) and am wondering if we HAVE to eat carbs?
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No. It is clear (and clearly stated) in the material posted and referenced, based on research, that there are no "necessary carbs", that the body only needs (among the macronutrients) fat and protein.

The only exceptions are those who are unable to be in ketosis because their bodies are too screwed up to be able to transition.
 
Gertrudes said:
...It seems that Lyle Macdonald (the author) has a very critical attitude towards Gary Taubes (author of Good calories, Bad calories)...
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I think that James Krieger (not Lyle Macdonald) may have a valid point. He summarizes his comments as follows:

James Krieger said:
What I am against is an incomplete presentation of scientific data, which can be misleading and can result in erroneous conclusions. I consider the latter half of Taubes’s book to be an incomplete, highly selective presentation of the data, and I intend to provide a more complete picture here.
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While I am not "against" Taubes' presentation (in Why We Get Fat -- I have not read his other book), I am concerned that it is not terribly accurate and that it does present an incomplete picture, not due to any particular failing of Taubes but because a complete picture is not available. He pretty much says as much himself. I would encourage everyone interested in this topic to read everything they can find. This is a puzzle that must be pieced together.

Even so, using the information in Why We Get Fat along with other things I gleaned from this forum topic I was able, in a matter of a week or two, to halt my own weight gain, without going hungry, after 40 years of yo-yo-ing. What I couldn't do was explain exactly why it worked or predict what it would take to lose weight. The latter is an ongoing experiment.
 
Megan said:
...
Even so, using the information in Why We Get Fat along with other things I gleaned from this forum topic I was able, in a matter of a week or two, to halt my own weight gain, without going hungry, after 40 years of yo-yo-ing. What I couldn't do was explain exactly why it worked or predict what it would take to lose weight. The latter is an ongoing experiment.
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Like you I've read 'Why we get Fat' and am part way through 'Good calories, Bad calories' (or at least the UK version with a different title!).

What exactly was it that you did in that couple of weeks 'to halt' your 'weight gain', 'without going hungry'?

In terms of where I've reached - all week at, or under 20g carbs, energy levels are up from where they have been, aching limbs have gone, not fully certain about fatigue level, as I think these last two days are running on adrenaline. This morning's ketone test of was trace. Someway to go methinks.
 
Trevrizent said:
...What exactly was it that you did in that couple of weeks 'to halt' your 'weight gain', 'without going hungry'?
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Using an epidemiological approach, Taubes identifies three agents that correlate with obesity: flour, sugar, and starchy foods. I was still eating quite a bit of these, even if from "healthy" sources, and I sharply reduced them, taking my carb intake down to about 70-100g/day. At the same time I added enough meat and fat to keep from feeling hungry. That was all it took to stop the weight gain.

I continued eating certain foods, such as sweet potatoes (in smaller portions), because I didn't want to change too quickly and because I wasn't trying to lose weight at the time -- only to stop gaining it. There were few unpleasant side effects.

Since then I have been working on my gut fermentation issues which, as usual, were unaffected by the change. For that I had to cut back to 15-20g/day of carbs, and the side effects have been unpleasant. But I am losing weight, and the gas from fermentation is notably absent. Now I seem to have fat digestion & fermentation issues. Nobody said it would be easy, and Taubes' information has not helped much at all in this phase.
 
Megan said:
Since then I have been working on my gut fermentation issues which, as usual, were unaffected by the change. For that I had to cut back to 15-20g/day of carbs, and the side effects have been unpleasant. But I am losing weight, and the gas from fermentation is notably absent. Now I seem to have fat digestion & fermentation issues. Nobody said it would be easy, and Taubes' information has not helped much at all in this phase.
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I think Gary Taubes is useful to get an idea of the Corruption of Science. But to address certain issues we'll need to look elsewhere. In the Vegetarian Myth, Keith does an excellent job in illustrating the difficulties of her transition after a lifetime of been a carb eater, damaging her meat digestive capabilities. She says that her damage is irreversible at her stage, but she went strong on the anti-nutrient and stimulating insulin side for being a strict vegetarian for so long.
 
Trevrizent said:
This morning's ketone test of was trace. Someway to go methinks.
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Here is a quote of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living regarding ketones in the urine:

As noted in Chapter 1, nutritional ketosis is defined by serum ketones ranging from 0.5 up to 5 mM, depending on the amounts of dietary carbohydrate and protein consumed. In most people, the combined intake of 100 grams of carbohydrate and 100 grams of protein will drive serum ketones well below 0.5 mM. While there is nothing magical about having circulating ketones above this threshold level, it does have the practical value of providing the brain with a virtually limitless, fat-derived fuel source. This alternative fuel is eminently more sustainable, particularly in the insulin resistant or carbohydrate intolerant individual.

Within a few days of starting on carbohydrate restriction, most people begin excreting ketones in their urine. This occurs before serum ketones have risen to their stable adapted level because un-adapted renal tubules actively secrete beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate into the urine. This is the same pathway that clears other organic acids like uric acid, vitamin C, and penicillin from the serum.

Meanwhile, the body is undergoing a complex set of adaptations in ketone metabolism[99]. Beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate are made in the liver in about equal proportions, and both are initially promptly oxidized by muscle. But over a matter of weeks, the muscles stop using these ketones for fuel. Instead, muscle cells take up acetoacetate, reduce it to beta-hydroxybutyrate, and return it back into the circulation. Thus after a few weeks, the predominant form in the circulation is beta-hydroxybutyrate, which also happens to be the ketone preferred by brain cells (as an aside, the strips that test for ketones in the urine detect the presence of acetoacetate, not beta-hydroxybutyrate). The result of this process of keto-adaptation is an elegantly choreographed shuttle of fuel from fat cells to liver to muscle to brain.

In the kidney, this process of keto-adaptation is also complex. Over time, urine ketone excretion drops off, perhaps to conserve a valuable energy substrate (although urine ketone excretion never amounts to very many wasted calories). This decline in urine ketones happens over the same time-course that renal uric acid clearance returns to normal (discussed below) and thus may represent an adaptation in kidney organic acid metabolism in response to sustained carbohydrate restriction.

These temporal changes in how the kidneys handle ketones make urine ketone testing a rather uncertain if not undependable way of monitoring dietary response/adherence. Testing serum for beta-hydroxybutyrate is much more accurate but requires drawing blood, and it is expensive be¬cause it is not a routine test that doctors normally order.

A non-invasive alternative is to measure breath acetone concentration. Acetone is produced by the spontaneous (i.e., non-enzymatic) breakdown of acetoacetate. Because it is volatile, acetone comes out in expired air, and its content is linearly correlated with blood ketone levels. A number of busi-nesses have developed prototype handheld devices to measure breath ac-etone, but at the time of this writing, nothing practical is on the market.

But whatever test is used, the key question is why do it? Many people are able to initiate and follow a low carbohydrate diet just fine without ever measuring ketones. Others, however, find an objective measure of nutri-tional ketosis to be reassuring. in some clinical settings, ketone testing is used as a measure of 'diet compliance. While this may be useful in the short term to keep patients on track in a strictly regimented dietary pro¬gram, it begs the question of how that individual's diet will be managed long term. For this purpose, the handheld breath acetone monitors under development hold some promise as a guidance tool put into the hands of the individual striving to find the right level of carbohydrate intake for long-term maintenance.
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