"Life Without Bread"

Thor said:
Trevrizent said:
Laura said:
Trevrizent said:
Thor, it was from TAASOLCL that my confusion started, in fact on rereading it yesterday evening it was then that I found that 1.5-2.5g/kg body weight referred to Protein Food, and not to protein amount. Protein content of 78g refers to my body weight, waist dimensions and other factors given by the Eades' in Protein Power.

Apart from the water loss at the start of reducing to 20g carbs, my weight has remained constant at 67kg, so no muscle loss. I have not read sufficiently far in PBPM yet to get to the figure that Laura has given - 0.95g/kg body weight - that's even lower and would equate to 63.65g of protein content per day. The amount of protein that I was eating for lunch is now reduced by a half! I'll need to do some more calcs to see what this further reduction equates to. :)

Well, this is why it is important to do the reading. But then, we've all been doing the reading and adjusting as we learn new stuff and when our experiments suggest that one thing or another is a better answer. I certainly couldn't understand why I wasn't going into ketosis after weeks and weeks. Well, obviously, I was eating too much protein.

But maybe, at the beginning, eating more protein is not such a bad idea because then you are still getting some carbs (converted from the extra protein) and that can help ease you into the lower protein amounts.

Trevrizent said:
So, it looks like the shopping bag gets even lighter and cheaper, as the food amounts are much, much lower than on a high carb diet, even taking into account the cost of 'good' meat, and it will last longer too. :)

Keep in mind that fats are still pretty much unlimited except for your own limits which you will discover by experimenting. And carbs should stay pretty low.

Before going out this afternoon checked recommended protein amounts in PBPM.
For most adults the RDA, roughly 0.8g per kilogram of ideal body weight (eg 150 pound ideal body weight (68kg) x 0.8 = 54g), is probably sufficient for 97.5 per cent of the adult population ... The average range would lie somewhere between 45 and 60g of actual protein per day for the majority of adults. ...
...
... "protein intake is a key determinant of circulating IGF-1 levels in humans" and suggested that "a reduced protein intake (no more than 0.95g/kg of body weight per day) may become an important component of anticancer and anti-aging dietary interventions." (Fontana et al. 2008)
...
... It isn't a good idea to exceed roughly 25g of actual protein in a meal, however, as this is the mTOR-stimulating threshold.
Note that actual protein includes both complete protein (meat, fish, eggs, etc) and incomplete /plant sources of foods (eg 1/2C broccoli is 2.5-3g protein).

Regarding fats (butter/ghee, etc) (along with Vit C and Magnesium), by eating more (as Laura suggests sandwiched between ham, etc), this seems to be solving the constipation problem. :)

Edit: spelling

Wow, that 25 g of protein per meal is bad news for me :scared:. I have a big breakfast with probably 50-75 g of protein and then I don't eat until I am hungry again, which turns out to be dinner where I have another 50-75 g of protein.

I tried doing a search for mTOR but don't understand the explanation on wiki. Can anyone explain if this is a concern that one should take seriously or just something to note?

As i have come to understand, unless your a very active athlete, power walker, avid hiker, ( 2 to 3 hour hikes ) a serious road or dirt biker, a weight lifter (1 to 1 1/2 of intense circuit training as an example ) and or a long distance swimmer, that the is rule 1 gram of protein, perpound of body weight, to rebuild muscle and repair, so ones own body doesn't scavenge it own muscle to repair what it breaks down. Also ones digestive system can only process 25 to 30 grams of protein in one sitting, and too much protein, turns to fat and taxes the kidneys, with possible serious repercussions.

Can The Body Digest More Than 30 Grams of Protein at One Time?
http://www.staleytraining.com/articles/other/digest-more-than-30-grams-of-protein.htm

Many people think you eat some protein, it mixes with some acid or something, gets broken down into amino acids, gets taken up into the body, and everyone is happy.

I wish it were that simple. As with all foods, the breakdown of protein starts in the mouth with the simple chewing of food and the ex poser to certain enzymes. In the stomach, food mixes with enzymes and other factors such as lipase, pepsin, intrinsic factor, and of course HCL (stomach acid).

It moves onto the small intestine and then the large intestine.The small intestine is considered the major anatomical site of food digestion and nutrient absorption and is made up of section such as the duodenum, jejunum, and the ileum. Pancreatic enzymes (chymotrypsin, trypsin, etc.), bile salts, gastrin, cholecystokinin, pepidases, as well as many others factors are released here.

The large intestine is composed of the ascending colon, transverse colon, descending colon, and the sigmoid colon, which all play a part in absorbing the nutrients we eat. Sound complicated? It is. Believe me, I am leaving out a great deal of information so you wont fall asleep reading my little column! Suffice it to say, digestion is a very complicated thing and there are many places along the chain of digestion that can both enhance and degrade a persons ability to absorb the foods we eat.

There is no reason to think that among this complicated process that there are not wide individual differences in a persons ability to digest and absorb protein. For some person who is inactive, elderly, and for what ever reason lives with compromised digestion, 30 grams of protein at one sitting might very well be too much for them to handle.

By the same token, assuming a 220lbs healthy athlete is unable to exceed 30 grams of protein in one sitting is neither proven by medical science or even logical in my view.

So what if the 30 gram rule turns out to be true? If we examine some of the more recent studies on the protein requirements of athletes done by researchers from both the United Sates and Canada, we come to some recommended protein intakes that far exceed the RDAs, some times by as much as 225%!

These researchers came to the conclusion that protein intakes for athletes should range from approximately 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight for endurance athletes and up to 1.8g of protein per kg for strength training athletes. For a 200 pound bodybuilder-a strength training athlete-that would be approximately 164 grams of protein per day (most bodybuilders I know eat considerably more protein per day, but that's for another fight and another article...).

Assuming that 30 grams of protein is the most anyone can digest, absorb, and utilize, this person would have to split his intake into about five meals (164 divided by 30 = 5.47). So, given the advice by many people that 30 grams is all anyone can digest at a single sitting, it appears a person can achieve the goal of 30 grams of protein per meal even with the higher intakes recommended in the modern research (assuming they are willing or able to eat five meals per day).

However, if you happen to eat more than that per meal as a healthy athlete I don't think you have anything to worry about. I won't tell anyone. Me, I would suggest you stick to the one gram per pound of bodyweight rule, which often exceeds the research mentioned above.

Note to self: lose the tire around the midsection :whistle:
 
Thanks for that info, c.a.

I wonder why Volek and Phinney recommend 1.5 - 2.0 grams of protein per kg of body weight. I guess that they just didn't get it all right.

I will try to increase my number of meals and decrease the amount eaten at each meal. Bummer - I was so happy that I had finally made my daily meals fit in with my daily routine. Well, another way to look at it is that if I should aim for .95 g/kg that means that I should go for 68.4 g of protein which could be easily be split on three meals or just two meals and a fat snack.

On a positive note, I feel like I'm getting closer to being keto-adapted. I have had several short time spurts where it was as if the energy was trying to break through but didn't quite manage. Today, after breakfast, I felt more energized than I have in a long time and it lasted throughout the day. Not rocket fuel but definitely more than regular gas :) Also, from TAASOLCL the time to get fully adopted is set at 4-6 weeks, which is about the time I've been on a 20g/day diet so maybe the time is now...
 
I'm caught up with reading 'The Vegetarian Myth' and this threat as well as reading 'The Vegetarian Myth', 'Life Without Bread', and 'The Art and Science of Low Carb Living' and I'm on day seven of the low carb diet where I'm eating about 50g of carbs a day. Thanks to everyone that has posted since I have learned a lot and after reading both the books and threads I felt confident starting the diet. I have some things I need to consider working on after reading all the material:
- Cut out coffee (I have reduced to one cup a day and using sugar in it is where I get about half my carbs)
- I drink a glass or two of wine every so often
- The other half of my carbs comes from a piece of chocolate or other sweets
 
Laura said:
Have you been eating fish? Scallops? Shrimp?

No. I don't tolerate shellfish well and stay away from fish in general because of the toxins.

Do you use home made mayonnaise to add a little variation? Fry, roast, stew, barbecue? Smoked fish?

Oh, yes, I vary the techniques for cooking. Ah, and my eye tooth for some smoked mullet (a Florida delicacy of sorts for those who don't know it) ;)

I wonder if we were actually supposed to derive psychological pleasure from food as we have been programmed to believe we deserve?

I dunno. Just asking. All I know is that I spent nearly my entire life hungry and thinking about food. I didn't realize that my brain was doing this because I wasn't getting nutrition due to leaky gut, gluten, casein, etc. For me, the relief of being free of these intrusive thoughts about food - planning, anticipating, preparing, eating etc - far outweighs any boredom I might have with the food I'm eating.

I dunno either but it's long been a pleasure rather than a chore for me to cook, especially for others. I definitely have positive associations with the nurturing and creative elements of it so I do feel a sense of loss. But as mentioned, being satiated and unattached to eating/cooking is also freeing.
 
Black Swan said:
I dunno either but it's long been a pleasure rather than a chore for me to cook, especially for others. I definitely have positive associations with the nurturing and creative elements of it so I do feel a sense of loss. But as mentioned, being satiated and unattached to eating/cooking is also freeing.

Same here, Blackswan. I could cook for folks all day long and not want to eat it - it's a very creative and nurturing outlet for me.
 
Bear said:
- Cut out coffee (I have reduced to one cup a day and using sugar in it is where I get about half my carbs)
- I drink a glass or two of wine every so often
- The other half of my carbs comes from a piece of chocolate or other sweets

If you look through the thread, you will see the coffee spikes the adrenal glands which raises blood sugar, followed by an insulin spike. All of which will prevent ketosis (fat burning) - or kick you out of ketosis if your in it (bouncing in and out of ketosis is Bad). Its stimulating the carbohydrate energy system.
There is also discussion of alcohol (and alcoholism) being a carbohydrate addiction.
The chocolate with sugar will also do the same as the coffee!

So if you want to reach ketosis, you'll need to cut all three of those out. Check back through the thread as to why.
 
c.a. said:
As i have come to understand, unless your a very active athlete, power walker, avid hiker, ( 2 to 3 hour hikes ) a serious road or dirt biker, a weight lifter (1 to 1 1/2 of intense circuit training as an example ) and or a long distance swimmer, that the is rule 1 gram of protein, perpound of body weight, to rebuild muscle and repair, so ones own body doesn't scavenge it own muscle to repair what it breaks down. Also ones digestive system can only process 25 to 30 grams of protein in one sitting, and too much protein, turns to fat and taxes the kidneys, with possible serious repercussions.

That's why I keep saying: read PBPM asap because she brings some very interesting information forward regarding this topic. If anybody else has the book and has the time, perhaps they can scan and share the chapter on this topic. It's an interesting theory/idea that deserves a bit of experimenting.
 
SolarMother said:
Think of those who make it their vocation or life-style to pursue the 3D pleasures of the 'grand distraction' called 'bon appetit!' Its a huge industry!

Paraphrased: "They were eating, drinking and giving in marriage until the end..."


It IS interesting that eating and drinking and marriage were singled out for this description of what brings on the End of the World, eh?

Makes me think that the overarching concept was that of the Odyssey: the suitors eating and drinking away Odysseus' goods and seeking to marry his wife. As we've seen in "The Odyssey" thread, the over-indulgence in food is associated with bringing on cataclysm. Over and over again, over-indulgence is highlighted as being a serious fault of character.
 
Well, I haven't finished the book yet, but this part should be helpful for protein intake.

The Downward Spiral

As various tissues proceed to become insulin resistant, the liver—the first organ to lose insulin sensitivity and proper insulin signaling—becomes prone, as a consequence, to overproduce blood sugar from glycogen, which raises blood sugar levels even further. Eventually, other tissues lose sensitivity, also. Your fat cells are the last tissues to become insulin resistant. Your brain is unable to effectively hear leptin’s messages, and your hypothalamus keeps sending you the signal to eat more, even when your fat stores are full. Your metabolism seeks to conserve fat in its state of perceived famine. Weight loss seems impossible. When your fat cells are finally no longer able to respond to insulin, there’s no place for the sugar to go. It builds up in your bloodstream, and you become diabetic, even if your insulin levels are still very high. If it goes on long enough, you may even burn out your pancreas’s ability to produce insulin anymore at all. Other tissues unfortunate enough to lack the capacity for insulin resistance become chronically bombarded with excess tissue-damaging insulin and glucose. Among these, nerve cells are extremely vulnerable and become readily damaged by glycation, eventually developing neuropathy. Brain cells similarly are extremely vulnerable here, and deteriorate, rapidly glycate, and oxidize, creating cognitive and memory problems and setting the stage for Alzheimer’s disease. The arterial endothelium gets increasingly damaged and scarred by the effects of insulin and the oxidation of glucose.

Surges of insulin and leptin stimulate sympathetic (fight-or-flight) nervous system activity, causing the body to rapidly lose magnesium and the vessels to constrict, raising blood pressure and impairing cerebral and all vascular circulation. Vulnerable constricted blood vessels, clogged with glycated and oxidized plaques, and smaller vessels that supply the eyes and kidneys begin to become compromised, impairing blood supplies there. Vision and the function of organs such as the kidneys may become impaired or seriously damaged. Hearing loss with advanced age is now being understood as a frequent outcome of advanced glycation of the auditory nerves (Gopinath et al. 2010). Men with impaired peripheral circulation start seeking Viagra prescriptions . . . In the end, you can be left blind and deaf, wind up on dialysis, and have your limbs amputated. The risk of heart attack, all degenerative diseases, autoimmune disease, and cancer is substantially elevated. It is not a pretty picture, and it is epidemic. Hint: Osteoporosis Isn’t Necessarily about Low Calcium Levels Again, a person predisposed to burning sugar as his or her primary source of fuel, particularly if that person is a diabetic, will have the tendency to more efficiently convert protein to sugar. Bones are largely composed of protein and collagen, which give them their strength and flexibility.

Calcium gives bone their hardness. Hardness without the strength and flexibility afforded by a protein matrix leads essentially to weak, brittle bones. If a “sugar burner” should attempt to starve himself, go too long without eating, or overly restrict calories, then his body will tend to convert its own protein stores from muscle and even bone to sugar to burn for fuel. It’s easier for your body to make sugar from protein than fat. This effect is also at play while you are asleep at night, when your blood sugar level lowers because you can’t eat. This leads to a breakdown of vital tissues at night to support your sugar habit. These low blood sugar levels, particularly in the presence of stressed-out adrenal fatigue and depressed cortisol levels, also commonly stimulate nighttime catabolic (tissue breakdown) adrenaline releases as the body desperately seeks to stimulate elevations in blood sugar levels. This leads to nighttime waking forms of insomnia and even to middle-of-the-night cravings in some people. Under extremes of stress, this can even result in muscle wasting, significant bone loss, immune system dysfunction, and possibly even organ damage. The same process, by the way, can result in a person who looks scrawny or emaciated all the time, seems nervous, and has trouble gaining weight. The result of dysglycemia isn’t always obesity. Food sensitivity issues— particularly gluten sensitivity—can also drive these catabolic blood sugar level highs and lows or even trigger autoantibody production that targets the breakdown of virtually any tissue—including bone and even the brain. Appropriate testing for food sensitivities should be sought by anyone who has experienced bone loss or degeneration (see www.cyrexlabs.com or www.enterolab.com).

The loss of lean tissue mass in this way, however, can contribute further to obesity and chronic fatigue in many people as the majority of mitochondria, our cells’ own little energy-producing, fat-burning factories, are largely in our muscles. Inflammation generated by excesses of omega-6 fatty acid, glycation, the effects of insulin and leptin, or anything else readily destroys mitochondria. Carbohydrate consumption promotes inflammation. The less muscle and the fewer mitochondria you have, the less is your ability to burn fat and produce energy. With fewer and fewer mitochondria, you are sapped of your vital energy and can’t lose weight. It is a vicious cycle. Even if you’re thin, you’re flabby. Gluten sensitivity, too, is a major contributor to the incidence of osteoporosis. According to studies in both The Lancet and the British Medical Journal, the prevalence of celiac disease with osteoporosis is so high that it has been recommended that all people with osteoporosis be tested for celiac disease. An article in Clinical Rheumatology stated, “Diffuse musculoskeletal pain, muscle weakness, and even osteoporosis may be the only symptoms of wheat allergies (gluten) and are completely relieved or reversed on a gluten free diet” (Kozanoglu et al. 2005). The Solution? First, eliminate the sugar, starchy carbohydrates, and gluten from your diet; this includes bread, pasta, grains, hidden sources of gluten, rice, beans, potatoes, and all sweets and sweeteners.

Limit the amount of fruit, and stick mostly to berries when you do eat fruit (berries are lower in sugar, higher in fiber, and much richer in antioxidants than other sources of fruit). Second, consume just enough dietary protein to meet your immediate daily needs for rebuilding and regeneration from high-quality, nutrient-dense sources of complete protein, such as grass-fed meat, wild-caught fish, and pastured eggs. This may be as little as 44 to 56 g per day for most adult people (the approximate RDA), which translates to six or seven ounces (just a few) of meat, eggs, or fish—preferably in divided amounts. (See the protein content of foods chart in appendix C, at the back of this book.) Another method of calculation would be to shoot for 0.8 g of actual protein per kilogram of ideal body weight per day. Extremely large or active individuals—short of being an Olympic athlete or a professional bodybuilder—or individuals in a particularly nutritionally depleted state may need 10 g or so more (all relative to lean-body composition and one’s activity level). That’s really about all. Elite athletes and bodybuilders may need closer to 1.5 g of actual protein per kilogram of body weight to meet their daily needs. Amounts in excess of this will likely suppress ketosis, however (Phinney 2004).

Pregnant women, children, and teens, however, should not have their protein intake overly restricted. High-protein diets are not advisable or necessary to be healthy and slim and can lead to numerous problems. The trick is in maximizing the quality of the food source, the digestibility of the protein (or quality of your digestion), and what you combine it with so that you can make the best use of this precious commodity. This is not about inducing starvation in any way. In fact, if you go about it correctly, you should never be hungry. It’s about improving the efficiency with which you use the quality, nutrient-dense foods in your diet. Digestion takes more energy to perform than any other daily human activity. Eating more of optimally sufficient amounts of complete protein— particularly when not overly cooked or combined with starches—actually greatly helps improve the digestion and assimilation of your food, and you will expend much less energy doing so, so you will have more energy to do other things! In fact, you may be utterly shocked to discover how much energy it is possible for you to have.

mod note: edited for readability from scan
 
Understanding the Role of Protein

Protein is essential to life and, unlike carbohydrates, is essential to the diet. Although we are able to synthesize and recycle many proteins and amino acids—the body is made up of more than fifty thousand different proteins—there are eight amino acids, the building blocks of protein, that are known to be essential: leucine, isoleucine, valine, lysine, phenylalanine, L-tryptophan, threonine, and methionine.

The term essential basically means these amino acids cannot be made in the body and must be derived from dietary sources and be fully present for normal protein synthesis to occur in the body. Without the presence of complete protein in the diet, normal and healthy protein synthesis in your body is brought to a screeching halt. Quality complete protein is found exclusively in animal-source foods. Combining vegetarian protein sources, such as beans and brown rice, for instance, to create complete protein still makes for a dominantly starchy food, yielding far more starch than protein, despite the combined, more complete amino acid profile, and in no way does this imply protein sufficiency. To accomplish actual daily protein sufficiency with rice and beans, the trade-off would be excessive caloric intake to meet the protein demand from a more carbohydrate- or starch-based food source.

The result would yield disastrous implications for blood sugar regulation, together with excess insulin and leptin surges. Hot off the Press In just the past couple of years, a brand-new and extremely important metabolic pathway was discovered. Researchers were studying a naturally occurring substance known as rapamycin, which is synthesized from soil bacteria, as it was able to demonstrate some fairly powerful cancer-inhibiting properties. Drug companies were extremely interested in finding out how it worked and accidentally stumbled across this new, previously unknown metabolic pathway, now referred to as mTOR, which stands for “mammalian target of rapamycin.” Much as insulin serves as a sort of default sugar sensor and leptin serves as the body’s fat sensor, mTOR (it turns out) serves as the body’s protein sensor, monitoring the availability of protein, or amino acids (particularly the branched-chain amino acids, most notably leucine, as well as methionine), for growth and reproduction.

It is also influenced by insulin levels, impacting IgF-1 activity, and is part of a related metabolic pathway. When protein levels are detected that exceed our basic maintenance requirements, the excess levels up-regulate the activity of the mTOR pathway, stimulating cellular proliferation and adverse (from a longevity standpoint) mitochondrial effects. Increased insulin also has this effect, and the mTOR protein belongs to what is known as the P13K pathway, which is activated by insulin, nutrients, and growth factors. mTOR has a central role in the regulation of cell growth and protein synthesis. It essentially activates our reproductive and cell-proliferating capacity.

It makes sense that dietary protein in excess of what is needed for maintenance and repair would send a message that it might be a good time to reproduce or make more cells. It is well known that animals in the wild whose diets are restricted by reduced food availability also typically have fewer young or may even fail to reproduce in a particular year, depending upon the available energy supply. Protein availability seems to be the key limiting factor. What is less stimulating of reproductive processes, however, is ultimately more stimulating of individual regeneration, repair, and enhanced mitochondrial function. This is where it gets interesting.

A recent study stated, “It has been shown that limiting dietary amino acids, specifically methionine, inhibits signaling through mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) thereby decreasing mitochondrial damage and protein translation” (Rosedale et al. 2009). The effect, in plain language, is slowed aging and improved health. Again, cellular proliferation occurs mainly under three circumstances: reproduction (DNA replication and pregnancy); growth, as, for example, in children; and cancer. A presentation on April 14, 2008, at the American Association for Cancer Research annual meeting revealed that modified caloric restriction may offer a protective effect against the development of epithelial cancers.

Epithelial cancers, also known as carcinomas, arise in the tissue that lines the surfaces and cavities of the body’s organs, and they make up 80 percent of all cancers. “Calorie restriction and obesity directly affect activation of the cell surface receptors’ epidermal growth factor and insulin-like growth factor,” explained study coauthor Tricia Moore, a graduate student in the Department of Carcinogenesis at the University of Texas’s M. D. Anderson Cancer Center. “These receptors then affect signaling in downstream molecular pathways such as Akt and mTOR. Calorie restriction, which we refer to as negative energy balance, inhibits this signaling, and obesity, or positive energy balance, enhances signaling through these pathways, leading to cell growth, proliferation, and survival.” If, however, the dietary protein level stays below this threshold, ancient mechanisms kick in that are designed to help us outlive an apparent famine, which then shuts down cellular proliferation and up-regulates, instead, repair and regeneration.

This process signals an effort to keep us healthy enough, long enough, so that our cells can reproduce another day. Our energy is conserved through maintaining our own cellular repair instead of making new cells. That’s what we want! We want just enough protein to meet the demands of our own repair, regeneration, and basic maintenance needs that can extend our own longevity, enhance our own health, and possibly even reverse signs of aging, but not so much that we up-regulate mTOR. And we always want to keep insulin levels as low as possible. So, how much is just enough? For most adults the RDA, roughly 0.8 g per kilogram (2.2 pounds) of ideal body weight (e.g., 150-pound ideal body weight (68 kg) × .8 g = 54 g), is probably sufficient for 97.5 percent of the adult population (one of the rare RDAs worth paying some attention to). The average would lie somewhere between 45 and 60 g of actual protein per day for the majority of adults. One study noted that the amount of protein needed to effectively retain lean tissue mass and quality physical performance in athletes was closer to 1.2 to 1.7 g/kg daily, translating to 60 to 80 g of protein per day, assuming adequate mineral intake (Phinney 2004). The same study also noted negative effects if this level of daily protein was exceeded by more than 25 percent of the daily energy expenditure, citing a drop in performance and suppression of ketogenesis. Note: Keep in mind that when we’re talking about grams of protein, we’re not saying grams of meat or fish. Protein is only a part of what makes up meat or fish. Fat, water, and many other nutrient components make up a piece of meat or fish.

I’ve provided a chart in appendix C to help translate the protein content into ounces of food to make figuring this out easier. You can either have your butcher or fishmonger cut the meat or fish into the weight portions you want or you can purchase a digital food scale (these aren’t at all expensive) to help take the guesswork out of things at mealtime. Eventually, you will probably just be able to eyeball it, but until then, it might make sense to monitor the amounts more closely to get into the habit of protein moderation.

Research published in the journal Aging Cell stated, “Reduced function mutations in the Insulin/IGF-1 signaling pathway increase maximal lifespan and health span in many species. Calorie restriction (CR) decreases serum IGF-1 concentration by ~40%, protects against cancer and slows aging in rodents.” The study showed that “protein intake is a key determinant of circulating IGF-1 levels in humans” and suggested that “a reduced protein intake (no more than 0.95 g/kg of body weight per day) may become an important component of anticancer and anti-aging dietary interventions” (Fontana et al. 2008).

Kindle won't let me copy any more...
 
Wow, thanks for this Incognito. I already have the book ordered but I couldn't wait after the last few pages of this thread so I've just downloaded the kindle version too. I've been struggling for a few weeks now, particularly at work with very low energy and muscle fatigue. I've been eating very very low carbs and was starting to wonder what was going on.
I think that part of the problem might indeed be too much protein. This is a bit of a shock. The amounts recommended seem so little! I'm starting to wonder if as well as getting healthy, we're preparing our bodies to be able to go for long periods without food. It makes me sad to think if we are having such a rough ride adjusting, what about all the people who may be forced to adjust suddenly. Not just the physical aspect but the psychological side. Most people aren't even aware they have this addiction. As far as they're concerned, eating a little bit of everything is good, like I said in a previous post and the wishful thinking comes in again- "I don't have a problem with food; I eat a healthy, balanced diet" So sad.
Anyway, I'm going to be looking at "table C" in PBPM first to see how much protein I'm actually eating but have a feeling that I've been eating far too much and I've had a tendency to hypoglycemia for a long time. The funny thing is that lately I've been feeling very energetic and strong in the mornings, weak and lethargic in the afternoons and then quite good in the evenings. But I guess it could be so many things.
I just finished reading the Fibre Menace yesterday and it certainly was a good read. I see he talks about a lot of things discussed in this thread. In particular he also recommends L-Glutamine for healing the gut (I started taking it a couple of days ago). It's funny I keep getting the feeling I knew all this- but I never would have "got it" without the forum. I mean, for example, I knew I was underweight because I had impaired gut function but I guess I over depended on doctors' opinions for a long time and they never asked about diet. I even used to go to a TCM doctor years ago for this and I'm sure he gave me great herbs but in retrospect, he didn't seem to know the importance of diet. I guess, deep down, I had been thinking that all this was unknowable, so thanks again, everybody :D
(Just got the kindle of "Lights out" too- I'm hoping it makes for some light reading (no pun intended) with all this heavy stuff going on. By the way, I've known for a long time that I was addicted to food, even though I ate relatively healthy- it was more in the "hungry attitude" towards food. challenging times ahead for my "food programming" ;)
 
Just for a quick rule of thumb, according to this calculator, one ounce of meat contains approximately 7grams of protein.

Beef
Hamburger patty, 4 oz – 28 grams protein
Steak, 6 oz – 42 grams
Most cuts of beef – 7 grams of protein per ounce
Chicken
Chicken breast, 3.5 oz - 30 grams protein
Chicken thigh – 10 grams (for average size)
Drumstick – 11 grams
Wing – 6 grams
Chicken meat, cooked, 4 oz – 35 grams
Fish
Most fish fillets or steaks are about 22 grams of protein for 3 ½ oz (100 grams) of cooked fish, or 6 grams per ounce
Tuna, 6 oz can - 40 grams of protein
Pork
Pork chop, average - 22 grams protein
Pork loin or tenderloin, 4 oz – 29 grams
Ham, 3 oz serving – 19 grams
Ground pork, 1 oz raw – 5 grams; 3 oz cooked – 22 grams
Bacon, 1 slice – 3 grams
Canadian-style bacon (back bacon), slice – 5 – 6 grams
Eggs and Dairy
Egg, large - 6 grams protein
 
1984 said:
Black Swan said:
I dunno either but it's long been a pleasure rather than a chore for me to cook, especially for others. I definitely have positive associations with the nurturing and creative elements of it so I do feel a sense of loss. But as mentioned, being satiated and unattached to eating/cooking is also freeing.

Same here, Blackswan. I could cook for folks all day long and not want to eat it - it's a very creative and nurturing outlet for me.

Can I get you people to move in with me? :D I abhor cooking, I don't want to waste any part of my few evening hours after work fussing in a kitchen, doing mathematical equatioins to just figure out how much protein to eat, way too much work. :P

My mother always did the cooking and never encouraged me to learn, the few times I tried to help out she would criticize whatever I was doing till I'd just leave the kitchen in frustration. No nuturing memories of cooking here!! :lol:

If I had somebody to figure out all the proportions, shop for it, prepare the food, and hand it to me, I'd never go off the diet again. :rotfl:
 
manitoban said:
When you think about this idea that we are programmed from birth really to associate food (and unhealthy food at that) with pleasure, it makes sense. It seems to me that when you consider just how much of their energy is spent by most people in our society worrying, anticipating etc about food, you gotta think, what a great distraction from being able to DO anything about the things that really matter. A distraction that goes on almost all the time for many people.

The only reason the Food Network exists is because of the OCD-like food obsessions people get riding the ups and downs of sugar metabolism. I believe Anthony Bourdain coined the term "Food Porn". Sounds about right :lol:

These protein figures from PBPM are a revelation! This may explain the rough ride I've been having lately, even though I'm sure I transitioned months ago. 25g of protein per meal - I'm easily going well over that regularly. 3 eggs and 5 strips of bacon, a normal breakfast for me, is 33g of protein (according to nutritiondata.com), so I'm overshooting the ideal figure at the start of every day!

Black Swan said:
Just for a quick rule of thumb, according to this calculator, one ounce of meat contains approximately 7grams of protein.

Beef
...
Steak, 6 oz – 42 grams

This means a 6oz steak should never be eaten at one sitting. And 6ozs is not a particularly large steak (I regularly eat double that). Considering I was usually aiming for 2/3 of a pound of meat per meal, if I'm not having anything with it, I'm having a tough time imagining being satisfied on only 25g of protein per meal. I probably get more like 50g in an average meal. I'm picturing eating lard with a spoon with a small 3oz steak on the side. Is that what our meals should be looking like?

You know, I'm definitely starting to question this number. I'm wondering if she's taking the need for gluconeogenesis into the equation. 25g of protein per meal may cover the body's protein needs for repair and hormones, etc., but what about the brain's glucose needs?

According to Lyle McDonald, once in ketosis, the brain needs about 40g of glucose per day (the rest of its energy coming from ketones). It's getting that from carbs, or it's creating it from protein converted into glucose (gluconeogenesis) as well as getting some from the glycerol in triglycerides (fat). By his calculations, a ketogenic body needs to get about 20g of glucose from protein per day if no carbs are coming in. If we're taking in 75g of protein per day (3 meals at 25g per meal), that's only 55g left for all the body's protein needs. Is that enough?

This question is important because, if the body isn't getting enough protein from food, it starts catabolizing muscle tissue. None of us are going to last long if we're eating our own muscle tissue.
 
Gertrudes said:
Alana said:
Thank you so much! I was going to ask about rashes today, when I read this. I've never had rashes before in my life, and now I got a few in a group below my belly button and I thought it was really bizarre. I drink enough water during the day, so I think it is the spices/herbs. I eliminated all peppers (I am very allergic to all of them) and now I will try cutting out all herbs too, to see what happens. Again, thank you Gertrudes for asking and Psyche for the info! :flowers:

I've been digging about it today and couldn't find much about possible causes. Skin rashes seem to be fairly common in ketogenic diets newbies, there are several low carb forums with skin rashes questions, but no one seems to know what causes them.

Yes, I found those forums too, and it does seem common in low carb intake. Everybody makes their own theories about it, but it seems that the toxins release/candida die offs or allergies are the most popular reasons why.

G said:
I got 2 new ones today, one in my chest, the other in my neck. Not very pleasant, although so far they are relatively subtle and the itchiness is bearable. I also read somewhere that rashes in the neck and chest are common in ketosis, the site said something about it being the result of adapting to the increased protein intake. I didn't save that page because there wasn't much more relevant information though.

My rashes are not itchy, and they are concentrated on one area of my skin. Some days they appear faded, other days they are more red, and I still haven't figured out what "irritates" them. Except for one thing: sauna. Every time I do the sauna, they get more pronounced. I don't know if it's the heat or the sweating. But some days they are pronounced even without the sauna use, or heat or sweating :huh:

Another interesting thing since lowering carbs to the minimum, is that my skin breaks in pimples, especially around my head hair line and my neck. So I think it might be a body detox reaction in the end. But it is still bizarre that both rashes and break-outs are localized. I'll keep observing. I started writing down everything I eat today and how I feel/what observations I make regarding skin, moods, etc, so I hope to have more information to share soon.

G said:
Let us know how you go once you cut out the herbs Keit :)

For sure! And I am Alana ;)
 

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