"Life Without Bread"
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Psyche said:
Thanks, Psyche. I've read some conflicting advice on whether to take certain supplements with or without food. Can you let us know if any should be taken on an empty stomach? (e.g. my magnesium says on the bottle to take it with food, but I know that's not recommended, and I've found different sources saying to take L-carnitine on an empty stomach and not, or not specifying...)
Approaching Infinity said:
In general, all amino acids are best taken on an empty stomach since there is some competition on absorption. Best effects are seen when taking away from meals. This applies for supplements like acetyl-l-carnitine or L carnitine and L-glutamine.
Then, magnesium has an alkalizing effect and if we are already struggling to have enough HCl for proper digestion, then it is best to take it away from meals as well. Even though some brands recommend to take it with meals, some people had reported having very bad reactions for taking Mg with their meals, they describe symptoms that are similar of inappropriate digestion. Perhaps it applies more to those who are shifting to a low carb diet. But I think it's best to preserve stomach acidity at meal times, specially on a low carb diet.
Probiotics are also best taken on an empty stomach.
Hi,
I had to come back here, because something is going on and I don't understand it.
The first time I tried the low-carb, everything went fine, and I get energetic and full from just fatty meats. But then at some point, after a week or so, I experience an intense feeling of hunger. And no matter what I eat, it still is there, it's there 24/7. The first time this happened, I got a bit afraid and ate carbs and then it went away, but I kinda started craving for carbs again.
So now this is my second attempt, and again after doing well for some days I suddenly experience the intense hunger. I take potassium, L-carnitine, my carbs are <20, I take in cod liver oil, magnesium, vitamin D, B-complex, vitamin C and spirulina. In the past two days I ate fatty pork meat with steamed spinach and a couple of eggs throughout the day, I cooked them all in duck fat. Now in "the art and science of low carb" I read:
But the strange thing is, that I don't crave carbs at all right now, I ate some nice pork meat that had a good fat layer, and it's like no matter what I eat the hunger is still there (continuously). I don't have an increased heart rate, I don't shake, don't feel anxious and energy wise I'm doing really good. But just that intense hunger which I'm experiencing right now that I don't understand. When yesterday the meal I had filled me for hours, the same meal leaves me hungry now, nothing seems to be able to fill it. Unless I would take many carbs, as it helped me last time.
So my question is, maybe I just can't survive on such a low amount of carbs? Or would there something else be going on?
I had to come back here, because something is going on and I don't understand it.
The first time I tried the low-carb, everything went fine, and I get energetic and full from just fatty meats. But then at some point, after a week or so, I experience an intense feeling of hunger. And no matter what I eat, it still is there, it's there 24/7. The first time this happened, I got a bit afraid and ate carbs and then it went away, but I kinda started craving for carbs again.
So now this is my second attempt, and again after doing well for some days I suddenly experience the intense hunger. I take potassium, L-carnitine, my carbs are <20, I take in cod liver oil, magnesium, vitamin D, B-complex, vitamin C and spirulina. In the past two days I ate fatty pork meat with steamed spinach and a couple of eggs throughout the day, I cooked them all in duck fat. Now in "the art and science of low carb" I read:
p.67 said:
But the strange thing is, that I don't crave carbs at all right now, I ate some nice pork meat that had a good fat layer, and it's like no matter what I eat the hunger is still there (continuously). I don't have an increased heart rate, I don't shake, don't feel anxious and energy wise I'm doing really good. But just that intense hunger which I'm experiencing right now that I don't understand. When yesterday the meal I had filled me for hours, the same meal leaves me hungry now, nothing seems to be able to fill it. Unless I would take many carbs, as it helped me last time.
So my question is, maybe I just can't survive on such a low amount of carbs? Or would there something else be going on?
Oxajil said:
How much protein/fat are you eating? If you eat too much protein (has to be a lot though - and weight of meat isn't the same are weight of protein), you can experience 'rabbit starvation' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
Are you taking digestive aids? How many carbs are you eating per meal?
Have you read through the recommended books yet? Sometimes transitions need to happen slowly, and may take years.
RedFox said:
My protein level per meal is ~22 g, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. Regarding the fat amount, I simply eat fatty meats, and if I don't make a meat broth, I cook them in duck fat.
I've experienced no other problems. I don't take digestive aids.
My amount of carbs per meal vary between 5 - 10. I haven't read PBPM yet, but have been reading the excerpts, and so far I haven't come across this, which is why I asked about it. And I understand that the transition can take many years, but I just find it weird how I can do well for many days on a low-carb & high-fat diet, and then suddenly have this hunger-symptom popping up.
mcb
The Living Force
Oxajil said:
Please do read it. :)
Not only is the subject inherently complex, but each of us has a different response to diet and dietary change coming from genes, environment, age, and stress levels (a favorite for me), among other things. The more you read, the better your chances of doing something about what is going on with you, personally, and the better your chances of learning about potentially unhealthy pitfalls in the choices that you make.
There are carb cravings and then there are other cravings. Stress, for example, can produce food cravings that are distinct from hunger, but that make you want to eat. Also, excess protein can convert to glucose and derail a ketogenic diet. And then there is a problem that apparently many people have (I don't) where simply reducing carbs isn't enough to make you stop wanting them. What you are describing could involve any or all of these or, I suppose, any number of other things. Read, read, read.
mcb
The Living Force
Some observations...
The reading we have been doing has much to say about carbs, or fiber, or other matters along those lines. PBPM is good in that it has a "primal" orientation, which is closer to what I think we are really trying to do. Ultimately, though, carbs, protein, and fat, and insulin, leptin, and mTOR, only matter in the context of learning what our bodies evolved to run on, and finding ways to choose from the foods available today to eat more like what people ate more than tens thousand years ago, and to discover anything else that might help us in our personal missions.
There is a bigger picture, which is understanding the "unseen forces" which steer the human race in the direction of eating foods that produce chronic disease. Whatever we learn about diet should be seen in this larger learning context. In that regard I personally find that I also have to explore stress as a source of disorder in my life, and that I am also probably dealing with congenital conditions that may have resulted from pathological influences in the pharmaceutical industry that led to mass-marketing of drugs that cause birth defects. Your details will vary, but personal health can be a large window into the larger unseen picture.
The information in Primal Body, Primal Mind about mTOR is interesting in that "caloric restriction" (meaning basically "protein restriction" in the context of a low-carb diet) promotes healing and longevity through homeostasis, and some of us have also been reading in The Polyvagal Theory that a sense of "safety" promotes visceral homeostasis. I can't help but think that these two phenomenon are closely related, but I have not yet come across anything that would tie them together.
The information in PBPM and The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living is similar, although I think PBPM has a better focus on "lifestyle," and provides better coverage of certain important topics. Neither presents the full picture about anti-nutrients, but The Vegetarian Myth goes a long way in singling out the anti-nutrients in the seeds of annual grasses as a central dietary problem over the last 10,000 years.
Fiber Menace seems to come from a different direction, and to offer a somewhat different approach. One of the opening chapters is clearly "anti-Atkins." Yet this book provides details about dealing with the negative side effects of embarking on a low-carb diet that are lacking in the other books. I don't think that it is really that much in conflict with the others. It is written for people with messed-up GI tracts; the other books are perhaps less helpful for those of us in that situation, at least when it comes to figuring out how to get started. Substitute "carbs" for "fiber" when reading FM and the connections become clearer. They are not the same thing, but but they often follow each other in the nutritional composition of foods.
Unfortunately, it looks like some of us are stuck with consuming more fiber than we would like to, due to long-term damage. Others are in the opposite situation. If you need more fiber then the advice in PBPM (and New Atkins) makes more sense (and fortunately the fiber carbs themselves don't count against net carbs). If you need little or none, FM is probably more helpful, although it can be quite useful both situations. If your gut is OK, the main value of FM may be in understanding how not to end up in this situation when you are older.
There is no one book I have read that comes close to providing complete information. They are all important, although the value of one book or another may vary greatly depending on personal circumstances.
And oh yes, I am currently reading Rethinking Thin. Good book! Happy reading. :D
The reading we have been doing has much to say about carbs, or fiber, or other matters along those lines. PBPM is good in that it has a "primal" orientation, which is closer to what I think we are really trying to do. Ultimately, though, carbs, protein, and fat, and insulin, leptin, and mTOR, only matter in the context of learning what our bodies evolved to run on, and finding ways to choose from the foods available today to eat more like what people ate more than tens thousand years ago, and to discover anything else that might help us in our personal missions.
There is a bigger picture, which is understanding the "unseen forces" which steer the human race in the direction of eating foods that produce chronic disease. Whatever we learn about diet should be seen in this larger learning context. In that regard I personally find that I also have to explore stress as a source of disorder in my life, and that I am also probably dealing with congenital conditions that may have resulted from pathological influences in the pharmaceutical industry that led to mass-marketing of drugs that cause birth defects. Your details will vary, but personal health can be a large window into the larger unseen picture.
The information in Primal Body, Primal Mind about mTOR is interesting in that "caloric restriction" (meaning basically "protein restriction" in the context of a low-carb diet) promotes healing and longevity through homeostasis, and some of us have also been reading in The Polyvagal Theory that a sense of "safety" promotes visceral homeostasis. I can't help but think that these two phenomenon are closely related, but I have not yet come across anything that would tie them together.
The information in PBPM and The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living is similar, although I think PBPM has a better focus on "lifestyle," and provides better coverage of certain important topics. Neither presents the full picture about anti-nutrients, but The Vegetarian Myth goes a long way in singling out the anti-nutrients in the seeds of annual grasses as a central dietary problem over the last 10,000 years.
Fiber Menace seems to come from a different direction, and to offer a somewhat different approach. One of the opening chapters is clearly "anti-Atkins." Yet this book provides details about dealing with the negative side effects of embarking on a low-carb diet that are lacking in the other books. I don't think that it is really that much in conflict with the others. It is written for people with messed-up GI tracts; the other books are perhaps less helpful for those of us in that situation, at least when it comes to figuring out how to get started. Substitute "carbs" for "fiber" when reading FM and the connections become clearer. They are not the same thing, but but they often follow each other in the nutritional composition of foods.
Unfortunately, it looks like some of us are stuck with consuming more fiber than we would like to, due to long-term damage. Others are in the opposite situation. If you need more fiber then the advice in PBPM (and New Atkins) makes more sense (and fortunately the fiber carbs themselves don't count against net carbs). If you need little or none, FM is probably more helpful, although it can be quite useful both situations. If your gut is OK, the main value of FM may be in understanding how not to end up in this situation when you are older.
There is no one book I have read that comes close to providing complete information. They are all important, although the value of one book or another may vary greatly depending on personal circumstances.
And oh yes, I am currently reading Rethinking Thin. Good book! Happy reading. :D
Very good analysis, Megan, our thoughts exactly.
Oxajil, we think that a person should not work on reducing carbs until they have spent time OFF gluten and dairy and healing the gut... like about a year. Only when the gut is healed should you approach the lowering of carbs.
Oxajil, we think that a person should not work on reducing carbs until they have spent time OFF gluten and dairy and healing the gut... like about a year. Only when the gut is healed should you approach the lowering of carbs.
Laura said:
Well I've been off gluten and dairy for a long time now, probably a year if not more. But I hadn't taken any steps to heal the gut, but I will pay attention to that now. Thanks.
I was wondering if the hunger feeling could come from the possibility of parasites being present and not being fed by carbs anymore. Could it be they're dying off? I'm hungry, but at the same time I've eaten and feel 'full', it's strange. And it's odd that, last time, I didn't have the same problem anymore when I increased my carbs a lot.
But you're right, I would need to heal the gut first!
Megan said:
Well, carbs are tied to the flight or fight sympathetic response, but a high fat diet is tied to the parasympathetic response through the vagus nerve. A diet rich in fats stimulates the release of cholecystokinin (CCK), a neuropeptide, which then triggers several digestive functions including stimulation of gall bladder contraction (which prevents less stasis of its contents, preventing gall bladder stones) and exocrine pancreatic secretion for digestion, and activation of afferent vagus nerve signals.
A diet rich in fat also activates anti-inflammatory pathways mediated by the vagus nerve. This is the best diet ever :)
mcb
The Living Force
Laura said:
Thanks, a few more are coming. One thing I forgot to comment about was how only one of the authors, Lierre Keith (The Vegetarian Myth) has come such under direct and sustained attack, as evidenced by the response to the SOTT article. She clearly identified the issue of anti-nutrients in the seed heads of annual grasses, and of the earth-destroying long-term effects of agriculture (as practiced). This is the sort of thing that can wake people up, as we have experienced, even when they were already waking up. "Somebody" didn't like that, I suspect. And look what happened to her health along the road to acquiring the experience behind her book. (Dr. Atkins might be another casualty--I don't know.)
The Atkins low-carb approach, and others like it, can potentially be extremely helpful, especially if you are also aware of the anti-nutrient issues. The main problem, however, seems to be that people usually treat it like a "diet" and, even when they see results, eventually return to eating what they ate before. This, in turn, results in the approach being labeled "ineffective" and "no better than the others," and makes it easier to overlook it. Another problem, as we have seen, is that individual responses to a low-carb diet are highly varied. It is not so simple as some of the authors might have you believe, depending on how old you are and what health issues you have. The recommended "dive in" approach is not so good for many people.
Rethinking Thin, of which I am nearing the end in my reading, has been rather fascinating in its own right. I especially enjoyed the dramatic account of the discovery of leptin. If you read between the lines, you can see the pathological forces at work, guiding the outcome. It strikes me that the researchers that carry out this kind of work can be very intelligent, resourceful, dedicated explorers but they are embedded in a system that serves to largely neutralize the fruits of their labor. The results are diverted toward the search for drugs that will treat symptoms while leaving the users dependent upon them for life, and the book comes out and says as much.
For that matter, look at the almost unimaginable amount of time, money, and other resources that have been invested in researching health issues in recent decades. Yet the curtailing and sickening of the human race was carried out by conscious design. I cannot help but think that all these little discoveries we are making now (at such great expense) about human and mammalian biochemistry were well known to those who planned what has happened, a very long time ago (from our 3D perspective). No wonder the answers to the problems are so elusive. We are way behind the curve.
And speaking of mammals, I am starting to appreciate now how unbelievably complex they are. I am starting to see them as ultra-complex host organism/receivers capable of evolving (through endless "shocks") into the particular kind of "receiver" that is us, and beyond. It is becoming more apparent as well the extent to which we are "programmable." The epigenome is highly programmable, and apparently can alter in response to nutrients and anti-nutrients. And then the brain, at a somewhat higher level, apparently can be reprogrammed by changing the interconnections between neurons (as highlighted in Rethinking Thin).
When you think you are starting to understand something about how we work, you may only really be viewing how we work in one possible programming configuration out of many. One set of conditions of climate and dietary stress, for example. One major flaw in much of the dietary research is that it has not considered how the rules can change if you eat differently (never mind what happens if the climate changes radically). I see no reason why this principle would be confined to diet however. Food isn't our only intake. There is no telling what lies hidden that we might unlock, with sufficient knowledge and tuning.
Learn what you can while you can. Or at least that is what I am trying to do. Anything really worth knowing is going to take some work to uncover. When your health and well being depend on what you find, though, you can afford to put more than a little effort into it.
Tina
The Cosmic Force
I tried the bacon mayo and could not get it to thicken. I even tried to start it over with a fresh egg and still couldn't get it to emulsify. If someone else is successful I'd love to know how it tastes! I'll bet is really yummy.
I ended up making regular mayo with grapeseed oil, used a little less oil than the recipe called for, then stirred in a tablespoon and a half of ghee after it was done. It is rich, creamy and deeeliciious, the best mayo I've ever tasted, if I do say so myself. :P
So, throw some ghee in your mayo to fatten it up!
I ended up making regular mayo with grapeseed oil, used a little less oil than the recipe called for, then stirred in a tablespoon and a half of ghee after it was done. It is rich, creamy and deeeliciious, the best mayo I've ever tasted, if I do say so myself. :P
So, throw some ghee in your mayo to fatten it up!
mcb
The Living Force
There is a section in Rethinking Thin that specifically addresses the issue of environmental stress affecting hormone regulation. Unfortunately, I am reading the audiobook version right now and it is hard to go back and look for things (let alone quote from an audiobook!). The passage in question, toward the end of the book, talks about how stress affects lab rats and throws off experimental results. I think this would be directly related to the loss of the polyvagal "safety" state (high vagal tone) and SNS "takeover."Psyche said:
Something not unlike this was mentioned in another book, Lights Out I believe. In that case the presence of continuous lighting in the areas where the experimental animals were housed was altering hormone (cortisol?) or other messenger levels. So there are various connections that are starting to come out.
One thing that is really coming home for me is just how narrowly focused the researchers can be, trying to track down this or that gene, hormone, or pathway without reference to the larger picture. Rethinking Thin highlights this phenomenon as well.
Oh yes, another thing I forgot to mention earlier is the flip side to mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin)/P13K pathway homeostasis: "reproduction." At the cellular level this means growth through cellular replication, in the presence of sufficient protein, (vs. homeostasis when protein intake is restricted) but I have to wonder if it isn't also related to a certain puzzling macro-phenomenon -- population growth. We know, historically, that something dietary triggers population explosions. Is it increased protein, acting ultimately through this pathway? I don't know, but something sure is doing it.
