"Life Without Bread"

dugdeep said:

One thing I've noticed about dropping the protein is that the meals are much less satiating. I've gone from being fine on 2 meals per day to needing 3, sometimes 4 small meals. I seem to spend more of my day hungry than previously, too.

I'm also quite dismayed at how small meals are now. I got myself a food scale to start measuring things instead of just guessing all the time. I was extremely frustrated last night when I measured out the meat from a cooked chicken wing I had leftover in the fridge and realize I couldn't eat a second one without overshooting the 25g protein limit by about 9 grams. I ate it anyway. (I'm using nutritiondata.com, and figured out the amount of protein in the meat I pulled from an admittedly large chicken wing was 17g).

Click to expand...

Feeling hungry may be a sign of needing more fluid intake (seem to recall this either from a thread here or from reading it in one of the books (Fiber Menace?)), taking on board more fluid will also give a feeling of fullness. The time between my three meals is now more regular.

Yes, it is quite surprising how small the meals are – then again it is a ‘survival’ diet, yet three meals are OK for me. I’m in my 6th week of 20g carbs, although rarely get that high since reducing protein to my weight allowance. It’s now between 13g and occasionally 20g. Protein intake is within plus 10 percent of the required level, and I’m just into week 2 of this. It’s almost like starting all over again. For the first time today I’ve lost some weight, and my waist measurement has reduced a little from last week.

I've been doing my best to try to compensate by loading up on as much fat as I can. In fact, I don't really see how I could eat more fat unless I was literally just eating lard with a spoon. My food is swimming in fat and I'm licking my plate clean of it. I also often eat two spoonfuls of coconut oil for "dessert". The fat helps in the short term, but the low protein meals just don't seem to have the same staying power.

Click to expand...

I take slices of butter with each meal to get the fat in, as well as licking the plate. :)

dugdeep said:

Yeah, I've upped the veggies somewhat, too. I guess the fiber adds some feeling of fulness there. The fact is, both Gedgaudas and Phinney & Volek talk about eating a lot of veggies. Maybe in order to actually make 25g of protein work, short of eating straight fat, you need to up the veggies. Even Taubes talks about loading up on veggies, if I recall correctly. Obviously we have to keep it below the carb tollerance level of course.

Click to expand...

I’ve found that my veggie intake has decreased, not only carb-wise, but also because the protein content of the veggies takes away from the full protein source of the meat.

I seem to be having a detox reaction, as well as the muscles getting used to burning fat, as I seem to be experiencing symptoms of previous problems, including IBS (never really gone away), and probably leaky gut too, and muscles in the most unusual places giving out (letting go). Also, I may need to reduce my magnesium intake, re bowel movements.

Laura said:

dugdeep said:

All in all, I'm having a difficult time imagining our paleo ancestors eating this way. It seems highly restrictive, which I can't see anyone doing without being prompted to do so. Is anyone else struggling with this?

Click to expand...

I don't think you should lower your protein until you have healed your gut. In fact, I think that protein reduction should sorta come naturally: if your gut is healed, your body gets the nutrients it needs, it turns off the hunger switch. So you know that your gut is healed when you naturally eat less.

Click to expand...

It also seems to me that you were eating too much carbs as in fruits and others in the past (it is so easy to be a carb junkie!), so your transition should be a difficult one.

brainwave said:

Psyche said:

How about some fish head soup. It sounds less shocking. Plus, you get the brain too! LOL! I don't know what to make of it. But I think that fish head soup sounds yummy ;)

Click to expand...

Fish head soup is a big deal in jamaican cooking. I love me some of that.

Click to expand...

Let us know if you have a special recipe ;)

Trevrizent said:

I seem to be having a detox reaction, as well as the muscles getting used to burning fat, as I seem to be experiencing symptoms of previous problems, including IBS (never really gone away), and probably leaky gut too, and muscles in the most unusual places giving out (letting go). Also, I may need to reduce my magnesium intake, re bowel movements.

Click to expand...

Do pay attention to the posts about potassium AND the extract from PBPM where she talks about certain people who cannot convert certain fats to necessary form and MUST take good fish oils. Everyone should probably take the fish oil capsules every day, but some obviously need more.

So, potassium and fish oil.

Then, do work on the gut healing with L-glutamine and colostrum. I think this is something Dugdeep needs to attend to in a serious way, too. He may need to keep his proteins higher while the gut heals. (And so may others!)

Laura said:

Trevrizent said:

I seem to be having a detox reaction, as well as the muscles getting used to burning fat, as I seem to be experiencing symptoms of previous problems, including IBS (never really gone away), and probably leaky gut too, and muscles in the most unusual places giving out (letting go). Also, I may need to reduce my magnesium intake, re bowel movements.

Click to expand...

Do pay attention to the posts about potassium AND the extract from PBPM where she talks about certain people who cannot convert certain fats to necessary form and MUST take good fish oils. Everyone should probably take the fish oil capsules every day, but some obviously need more.

So, potassium and fish oil.

Then, do work on the gut healing with L-glutamine and colostrum. I think this is something Dugdeep needs to attend to in a serious way, too. He may need to keep his proteins higher while the gut heals. (And so may others!)

Click to expand...

I'm late to the leg cramp discussion, apologies.

Since reducing carbs to about 20 gr a day, the spasticity in my lower limbs has gotten bad enough for whole body cramps. I've reduced coffee to half a cup in the morning, and tomorrow I'm not drinking any, so I'm wondering if that could be a factor?

Spasticity is from MS, and I'm wondering if its different biologically from basic muscle cramps? Some of these cramps are strong enough to make the muscles sore, and a few knock me down. Mild exercise on a recumbent bike helps, walking the dog helps. Mild stretching is touch and go. Its been a while since I've had the whole 'fish flop' cramps in bed at night. I'd love any ideas on getting rid of those.

I'm taking fish oil, borage oil, L-glutamine, boswellia, and digestive enzymes...but have not gotten the colostrum or lactoferrin yet. Supplementing with potassium set off IBS symptoms, so I stopped that. Right now if I don't take anti diarrheals, I can't leave the house. That is why I haven't gotten the colostrum/lactoferrin...it may just go on through without doing anything.

I'm still reading PBPM, Low carb Living, and looking through "In and Unspoken Voice."

LQB said:

Also suffering a bit from a strangely "pulled" muscle in my back about shoulder blade level. I've been adding increasing amounts of salt, potassium, Mg, carnitine. Plenty of energy and meal volume is decreasing.

Click to expand...

I've been having that strange sensation as well, since I started low-carb, although much less in frequency now. I think it usually comes up when I eat a lot of protein? It's quite an unsettling feeling, almost like a fight or flight sort of thing where the muscles behind the shoulder get all tense.

Laura said:

Potassium citrate is usually administered by mouth in dilute aqueous solution. This is because of its somewhat caustic effect on the stomach lining, and the potential for other mild health hazards.

Click to expand...

That must have been what I felt when I had my potassium chloride salt "raw," it was truly horrible, caustic is the right word.

The info about eating the organs of animals to fix your own reminds me of this article on SoTT;

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/225400-Eat-Fat-Live-Long-the-Real-Food-of-Okinawa said:

Okinawan Healing with Food

Traditionally, Okinawans had no medical doctors, but relied on food to heal themselves. This system was based on the organs of animals, usually pigs, but often goats. The traditional belief was that disease was caused by an imbalance in an organ, and the imbalance could be corrected by eating the corresponding part of an animal. Someone with breathing difficulty would eat the lungs of a pig. Somebody with a hearing problem would eat the ears. Someone with a digestive problem would eat the stomach of a pig, and/or the kidneys, and so on.

This system is not unique to Okinawa. It was followed by many traditional peoples, including the Native Americans, and by many Western M.D.s before prescription drugs became the remedy of choice.

This system worked so well that many Okinawans still follow this tradition, and do not seek medical help. This may actually contribute to their longevity, because the side effects of the drugs and surgeries used by modern medicine cause the death of many people.

The Real Okinawan Food Is Consistent with the Research of Dr. Weston A. Price

Dr. Weston A. Price spent 10 years studying the diets of the last healthy peoples on Earth. These peoples were free of the chronic diseases that plague the modern world. Dr. Price did not just read studies, he actually traveled right to the people he studied and observed them personally. Dr. Price found a number of similarities in the diets of these people:

* They ate a large amount of animal fat.
* They ate a substantial amount of meat and/or seafood.
* They ate a large amount of organ meats regularly.
* They ate some of their meat and/or seafood raw.
* They ate many kinds of natural foods, unrefined and unprocessed.
* They ate a number of naturally fermented foods.
* They ate at least a small amount of seafood, fermented if they could not get it fresh.

Click to expand...

Gimpy said:

Since reducing carbs to about 20 gr a day, the spasticity in my lower limbs has gotten bad enough for whole body cramps. I've reduced coffee to half a cup in the morning, and tomorrow I'm not drinking any, so I'm wondering if that could be a factor?

Click to expand...

You might be one who needs to keep the carbs up for the duration of the gut healing process. But get them in the form of the cooked veggies that are nicest to you. For me, it's green beans steam/fried in ghee or duck fat, mushrooms, and a bit of sweet potato now and then. Oh, asparagus is okay, too. But that's about it.

If you can find the right mix of protein and veggie that your tummy likes and doesn't induce unpleasant symptoms in your body, then do that consistently while working on healing the gut. That can take a year.

Gimpy said:

Spasticity is from MS, and I'm wondering if its different biologically from basic muscle cramps?

Click to expand...

I dunno. Probably is a little different. But it's hard to tell which is which, I think?

Gimpy said:

I'm taking fish oil, borage oil, L-glutamine, boswellia, and digestive enzymes...but have not gotten the colostrum or lactoferrin yet.

Click to expand...

The lactoferrin/colostrum is very important along with the L-glutamine. Also, the fish oil needs to be played with a bit. I'm taking about 6 of them a day right now. I've taken 10 to 14 a day before. Read that part in the excerpts from PBPM about people who can't synthesize EFAs etc.

Gimpy said:

Supplementing with potassium set off IBS symptoms, so I stopped that. Right now if I don't take anti diarrheals, I can't leave the house. That is why I haven't gotten the colostrum/lactoferrin...it may just go on through without doing anything.

Click to expand...

See above. Try to find the right combination of protein and steamed veggies that stabilizes your gut. Only have fat with food. Might try leaving off the borage oil as an experiment. And maybe you don't need the digestive enzymes so much as the hydrochloric acid? Something to experiment with? I do think you need the potassium - especially with the diarrhea going on - so you need to find what stabilizes your colon while you work on healing the gut.

The slippery elm is very good, too.

dugdeep said:

One thing I've noticed about dropping the protein is that the meals are much less satiating. I've gone from being fine on 2 meals per day to needing 3, sometimes 4 small meals. I seem to spend more of my day hungry than previously, too.

I'm also quite dismayed at how small meals are now. I got myself a food scale to start measuring things instead of just guessing all the time. I was extremely frustrated last night when I measured out the meat from a cooked chicken wing I had leftover in the fridge and realize I couldn't eat a second one without overshooting the 25g protein limit by about 9 grams. I ate it anyway. (I'm using nutritiondata.com, and figured out the amount of protein in the meat I pulled from an admittedly large chicken wing was 17g).

I've been doing my best to try to compensate by loading up on as much fat as I can. In fact, I don't really see how I could eat more fat unless I was literally just eating lard with a spoon. My food is swimming in fat and I'm licking my plate clean of it. I also often eat two spoonfuls of coconut oil for "dessert". The fat helps in the short term, but the low protein meals just don't seem to have the same staying power.

This means I'm getting hungry before bed. If I eat dinner at 5 or 6, I'm hungry again by 9 and needing a snack. I haven't eaten snacks in a long time and I'm not really set up for them. What are people doing for snacks these days? Today I ate two fried eggs as a midafternoon snack . I just finished a salad with olive and coconut oil and a squeeze of lemon and a handful of nuts.

All in all, I'm having a difficult time imagining our paleo ancestors eating this way. It seems highly restrictive, which I can't see anyone doing without being prompted to do so. Is anyone else struggling with this?

Click to expand...

Yes I am. I could have written what you have just written dugdeep.

And I even don't know anymore what to eat for a snack when I hike or ride my bike.

I used to eat a lot of carbs when I was doing these two activities but since I have cut on my carbs, I have not found something to replace that for the moment. Still experimenting.

And I am also having a difficult time imagining our paleo ancestors counting the numbers of proteins that they were eating.

Gandalf said:

dugdeep said:

One thing I've noticed about dropping the protein is that the meals are much less satiating. I've gone from being fine on 2 meals per day to needing 3, sometimes 4 small meals. I seem to spend more of my day hungry than previously, too.

I'm also quite dismayed at how small meals are now. I got myself a food scale to start measuring things instead of just guessing all the time. I was extremely frustrated last night when I measured out the meat from a cooked chicken wing I had leftover in the fridge and realize I couldn't eat a second one without overshooting the 25g protein limit by about 9 grams. I ate it anyway. (I'm using nutritiondata.com, and figured out the amount of protein in the meat I pulled from an admittedly large chicken wing was 17g).

I've been doing my best to try to compensate by loading up on as much fat as I can. In fact, I don't really see how I could eat more fat unless I was literally just eating lard with a spoon. My food is swimming in fat and I'm licking my plate clean of it. I also often eat two spoonfuls of coconut oil for "dessert". The fat helps in the short term, but the low protein meals just don't seem to have the same staying power.

This means I'm getting hungry before bed. If I eat dinner at 5 or 6, I'm hungry again by 9 and needing a snack. I haven't eaten snacks in a long time and I'm not really set up for them. What are people doing for snacks these days? Today I ate two fried eggs as a midafternoon snack . I just finished a salad with olive and coconut oil and a squeeze of lemon and a handful of nuts.

All in all, I'm having a difficult time imagining our paleo ancestors eating this way. It seems highly restrictive, which I can't see anyone doing without being prompted to do so. Is anyone else struggling with this?

Click to expand...

Yes I am. I could have written what you have just written dugdeep.

And I even don't know anymore what to eat for a snack when I hike or ride my bike.

I used to eat a lot of carbs when I was doing these two activities but since I have cut on my carbs, I have not found something to replace that for the moment. Still experimenting.

And I am also having a difficult time imagining our paleo ancestors counting the numbers of proteins that they were eating.

Click to expand...

That said, our paleo ancestors didn't need to change from a glucose metabolism and toxic agricultural diet shaped for thousands of years.

The advice to take a step by step common sense approach to our transition is paramount imo.

Someone posted a protein chart a few pages back in this thread, but here is part of the chart from "Primal Body, Primal Mind":

The source for the information in this appendix is the USDA Nutrient Database for Standard Reference.

For the following sources of complete protein, please note that the amount of protein varies with fat content. More fat equals less protein per serving. The following numbers are approximations.

Protein Content Based on a 3-ounce Serving

Egg (medium): 6g
Fish: 21 g
Roast beef: 28 g
Roast chicken: 25 g
Other meats (average): 25 g
Sausage: 12 g
Ham: 18 g
Beef burger: 20 g
Corned beef: 26 g
Liver: 23 g
Sirloin steak: 24 g
Turkey: 25 g
Shrimp: 18-21 g
Tuna: 22 g
Ground beef (regular): 23 g
Ground beef (lean): 24 g
Spareribs (lean): 22 g
Chicken breast: 25 g
Lobster: 17 g
Salmon: 22 g
Duck (roasted): 24 g

Protein Content in Incomplete or Plant Sources of Foods

Even though the following foods are sources of incomplete protein, they contribute to amino acid pool and thus can influence the functioning of the mTOR pathway.

Nuts (e.g., walnuts, Brazil nuts; 1/4 cup): 5 g
Cashews (1/4 cup): 5 g
Almonds (1/4 cup): 7.5 g
Pine nuts (1/4 cup): 7.5 g
Quinoa (1/2 cup): 4.5 g
Stir-fried vegetables (1/2 cup): 2 g
Broccoli (1/2 cup): 2.5-3 g
Spinach (1/2 cup): 2.5 g
Coconut milk (1 cup): 6 g

Jerry said:

The advice to take a step by step common sense approach to our transition is paramount imo.

Click to expand...

Indeed, we have to give us the time to do the transition as natural as possible.

dugdeep said:

One thing I've noticed about dropping the protein is that the meals are much less satiating. I've gone from being fine on 2 meals per day to needing 3, sometimes 4 small meals. I seem to spend more of my day hungry than previously, too.

Click to expand...

If you want to lose weight then a little hunger can be a good thing, provided that your blood sugar level is not dropping excessively.

I am finding now that when my stomach finishes with a meal (another good thing -- it means that it is working and digesting protein, rather than holding on to it!), it sends me an "empty" signal. If I have been bad and eaten a lot of protein in the evening, as I did once last week, it might even send a strong enough signal to wake me up in the middle of the night.

I have often tended to treat this signal as meaning "hungry," but it doesn't really mean that. If I ignore it, it goes away. "Hungry" is when my blood sugar starts to drop from lack of fuel, and that is a different "can't think" kind of signal. I find that blood sugar drops faster with higher carb intake, but then I have had hypoglycemia my entire life and I may be especially sensitive to it.

I would venture a guess that the stomach signal might have originally been a cue that it might be time to start thinking about where the next meal will be coming from. It doesn't seem to be very important now, when meals come from the refrigerator. But if you were going to have to go hunt for something, an early warning might be helpful. Of course the stomach signal also represents a transition from digesting to waiting, and may really be nothing more than the normal body sensation of shutting down the process, but in biology many things seem to serve more than one purpose.

Even the subsequent drop in blood sugar may have more to do with being accustomed to high blood sugar levels from eating too many carbs than to actual hunger. If your carb intake is low enough that you are in nutritional ketosis, and you are eating less to lose weight (which basically means eating less fat, since you always want to limit protein, to enhance cellular repair), you shouldn't have too much trouble continuing to run on stored fat long after a meal. You don't want to go too long, though, because the body will take measures to conserve energy, and I have been having a snack (rather than a meal) in late afternoon/early evening to try to avoid that.

I suspect that even the initial low blood sugar signal is more of a warning to which we may habitually overreact than a true hunger signal. It could perhaps also be the normal bodily sensation of switching over to burning stored fat, I suppose. In the past, when I was younger and somewhat healthier, I could often ignore it and it would go away too eventually, even with hypoglycemia. It is a little harder to do that now, but I am experimenting.

Gandalf said:

And I even don't know anymore what to eat for a snack when I hike or ride my bike.

I used to eat a lot of carbs when I was doing these two activities but since I have cut on my carbs, I have not found something to replace that for the moment. Still experimenting.

And I am also having a difficult time imagining our paleo ancestors counting the numbers of proteins that they were eating.

Click to expand...

See what I've already posted on this topic please!

If you need a snack, take a bag of macadamias (or whichever nut works best for you) or some bacon in congealed bacon fat in a baggie. That works for me!

You might be one who needs to keep the carbs up for the duration of the gut healing process. But get them in the form of the cooked veggies that are nicest to you. For me, it's green beans steam/fried in ghee or duck fat, mushrooms, and a bit of sweet potato now and then. Oh, asparagus is okay, too. But that's about it.

Click to expand...

I'm finding this to be true too. This mornings breakfast was a bacon wrapped chicken breast, with green beans cooked in bacon fat with garlic and sea salt. Eating a good meal at breakfast seems to help.

The lactoferrin/colostrum is very important along with the L-glutamine. Also, the fish oil needs to be played with a bit. I'm taking about 6 of them a day right now. I've taken 10 to 14 a day before. Read that part in the excerpts from PBPM about people who can't synthesize EFAs etc.

Click to expand...

I'm going slow reading PBPM, there's so much information packed in it, it needs a long read. (Which is good, helps me stuff it into long term memory where it will 'stick around'.)

And maybe you don't need the digestive enzymes so much as the hydrochloric acid?

Click to expand...

I think so, but it's hard to find any digestive aids that are hydrochloric acid only where I am. I Herb doesn't have any, neither does the Vitamin Shop. (I'll check needs next, and there's one more local shop I can call before throwing my hands up.)

As for the spasticity, I think it has to do with cascading hormones and digestion, but that's about as detailed as it gets as far as trying to think it through. Some days I can think right now, and other days its just frustration all the time. Movement of any kind, as long as it isn't forced or for too long, is helping. (Yoga is wonderful.)

On the note of gut healing, along with colostrum/l-glutamine I found that bone broth Really helped a great deal. Things feel like they are healing a lot quicker than they did when I was just taking l-glutamine alone. When I got colostrum I noticed a transition too similar to when I first started eating the broth.

Slow cooking meat (on the bone) in water, which produces its own broth/jelly (once cooled) has also really helped my digestion and gut healing.