"Life Without Bread"

Aragorn said:

I'm angry at my self, being so naive and thinking wishfully. As Gedgaudas and other point out, it can take months for the system to get restored. Another lesson learned, I guess. :( I probably should just stick to The List without exceptions.

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I don't think it takes months to clear out the effects of casein. Usually, when I have something I shouldn't and start to feel it, I immediately take some enzymes, Vitamin C (3 to 5 grams), Boswellia (fights inflammation in the gut), and alpha lipoic acid. Works quickly...

Aragorn said:

I've noticed that being on the (very) low carb diet makes me many times more sensitive to wrong stuff I happen to eat. When the symptoms of eating something wrong earlier took 1-2 days to manifest, I now notice it within an hour or so. Luckily I have not eaten wrong many times in the last years, but being at other places than home and having to eat, it sometimes happen.

Yesterday, I was with my son at his kindergarten where they had this autumn fest. Some of the parents had volunteered to make food for everyone. They knew that our son and I are gluten sensitive, but I had forgot to mention about my sensitivity to milk protein. So, they had made this very delicious salmon soup, and partly due to courtesy, I had just a couple of spoonfuls of it, leaving the potatoes and veggies aside. There was a label in front of the bowl saying 'Lactose free', and knowing that it doesn't mean safe - it still can have casein in it, I made the wrong decision to taste it.

Within an hour I felt my brain starting to shrink, making clear thinking difficult and making things seem more gloomy somehow. Right then I knew I had screwed up. As if that wasn't enough, the next morning (today) I woke up with a massive and very nasty ache in my neck. My neck is my 'food barometer', I immediately know when I've eaten something wrong. During the day it just kept getting worse, so in order to stay at least partly functional I took some paracetamol, and did some yoga. The coffee enema later this evening finally put a stop to it.

I'm angry at my self, being so naive and thinking wishfully. As Gedgaudas and other point out, it can take months for the system to get restored. Another lesson learned, I guess. :( I probably should just stick to The List without exceptions.

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I was recently too hard on myself for succumbing to 'temptation' (little bite of something), or wishful thinking as you called it, or having something I should not have-- I had extreme reactions immediately recently to a little bite of homemade chocolate! Seems like its all part of lessons about letting go of 3D. Many of us on the forum are going through this process--fwiw, you are not alone! It happens!

Laura said:

Aragorn said:

I'm angry at my self, being so naive and thinking wishfully. As Gedgaudas and other point out, it can take months for the system to get restored. Another lesson learned, I guess. :( I probably should just stick to The List without exceptions.

Click to expand...

I don't think it takes months to clear out the effects of casein. Usually, when I have something I shouldn't and start to feel it, I immediately take some enzymes, Vitamin C (3 to 5 grams), Boswellia (fights inflammation in the gut), and alpha lipoic acid. Works quickly...

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Thanks for the tip! Off to take some more vit. C and ALA, good night. :)

Aragorn said:

I've noticed that being on the (very) low carb diet makes me many times more sensitive to wrong stuff I happen to eat. When the symptoms of eating something wrong earlier took 1-2 days to manifest, I now notice it within an hour or so. Luckily I have not eaten wrong many times in the last years, but being at other places than home and having to eat, it sometimes happen.

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Now that you mention it, I noticed that as well. I've also been noticing that my digestion is much more affected by my mood and by how fast or slow I eat. The faster the worse.

Another thing that I've been meaning to mention is something that has been puzzling me greatly over the past months. I've posted before about my problems with liquid warm fat, which seemed to cause me problems, versus cold hard fat. Well, I'm no longer sure about this, as it seems that the problem doesn't lie in the fat (unless it isn't organic), but whether the meat is freshly cooked (and I'm specifically referring to stews and roasts here), or if it's re heated. Strangely enough, I do very bad with freshly cooked stews/roasts, and seem to have no problems at all when they are re heated. When I first noticed this I didn't quite believe it and put it down to the liquid fat that is more abundant in newly cooked meat. But, time and time again, and experiencing with eating little fat, I get the same reaction. If I don't have an extremely small portion, my digestion tends to stop. But if I eat it the next day, AFTER it has cooled down, I can eat it without a problem.

I've had the opportunity to experience this so many times, and my partner has also observed it, that right now I am convinced that there has to be some sort of chemical reaction involved for this to be happening.
At first I thought that this had to do with the cooling down process, and my partner even compared it to what happens with pasteurization. But my search on the net, although with very few results, gave me one hint: from what I read here and there the temperature of food affects digestion and sometimes, if too hot, destroys enzymes. Well, when eating newly cooked foot I usually tend to eat it warmer then when re heated, particularly since I have the habit of tasting while cooking. Also, newly cooked meat will tend to be warmer from its inside, when compared to when it's microwaved. I don't know if this is what's causing the problem though.

Organ meats are actually the worse, and I think that I'm going to stop eating them the day they are cooked, otherwise I'll just end up with a rock seating on my stomach. Again, the next day, after having been in the fridge, I can eat it without a problem. This is really puzzling to me.

Edit: Added more info

Added: maybe in a month I'll find out that the problem resides elsewhere In any case, my digestion is much better, but there is definitely something there occasionally creating havoc, and I may not be seeing it because I'm filtering my sensations through the lens of my limited knowledge and of what I'm expecting to find.

As a test, you may like to consider marinating fresh meat (other than lamb) in cider vinegar overnight before cooking and see what effect this has - it may 'cure' theproblem.

This may help or not.

Aragorn said:

I've noticed that being on the (very) low carb diet makes me many times more sensitive to wrong stuff I happen to eat.

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I think I have had an incident of this lately.
I have been going slowly over to the diet since spring, but only for the last couple of months, since I realized that I apparently don't need chocolate ice cream anymore, have I been completely without any type of dairy. (before that I had ice cream once a month)
My food is almost always roast pork with salt (this way I only have to cook every second day, very smart!) and I am always happy to eat it.
One thing I really like about this diet is, that I don't have to spend all that time digesting. I mean I use to have an hour after eating where I'd be a little tired while my body put its energy into digesting. But with fat/meat only, right after eating I feel full, but instead of getting tired, I get more energetic, just like sometimes it seems that the car drives better with a full tank (maybe this is only old cars, but mine was like that)

I have been eating a few apples in the last month though. There is an empty house on my road, with a very nice abundant apple tree, and some of my little I's, convinced the others, that if we were wild humans, we'd definitely eat those apples if we were so lucky to find them. I'm NOT good at remembering to buy supplements, like vitamins, and often forget to eat them when I remember to buy them, (I think maybe taking pills make me feel like I'm sick since I need them, and that's why)
So I know there is too much sugar in apples, but figured that I might need something of the other stuff they have , since my sugar cravings (for other sweet stuff than apples) have subsided completely, and not even the smell and sound of other people eating candy right in front of me, gives the least bit mouth water! I have not had problems with the apples, but suspect that I stop weight loss (don't matter much) when adding apples to the diet (between one and four a day) and also the stomach looks a bit bigger suggesting return of candida. (after a four apple day)

But the incident I wanted to tell about, came a few weeks ago, after one day out of the blue suddenly craving cream. (not ice cream, just plain cream) So I thought OK I'll try and see what happens. I bought a grapefruit (I thought if I was gonna sin, I'd better sin well), and some cream, and ate it (very tasty) and the next day I did it again.
Then I realized that my left ankle was very swollen. I had been sitting in front of the computer for many hours that day, and it could be that sitting so long had cut the circulation, and somehow caused the swelling. But I often sit in front of the computer all day (I work on it as well as freetime research) and this haven't happened before.

I think it is possible that after being without dairy for a while, now my body reacts immediately if I eat it. I didn't eat anymore of it, and the swelling was gone after 2 days.

Off cause it might be coincidence and have nothing to do with the cream, I might try again someday just to see if it happens again.

The diet is working very well for me. I am not depressed anymore, since the chocolate ice cream craving stopped, which suggest that that was the time I went into ketosis (I think this is how you say it) I have more energy. I look better and feel better. Off cause 2 months without depression isn't long enough to be sure that it is gone for good, but it is certainly uplifting.
I'm still a bad student (still haven't finished reading this thread) and I'm still poor, (though a little less) and I have gotten a barely noticeable rash on my forehead (I just saw someone have been talking about rashes, so there's another good reason to become a better student)

But I'm really grateful for the improvements, so thank you much Laura and all, for sharing the research into this matter (also)

Gertrudes said:

Another thing that I've been meaning to mention is something that has been puzzling me greatly over the past months. I've posted before about my problems with liquid warm fat, which seemed to cause me problems, versus cold hard fat. Well, I'm no longer sure about this, as it seems that the problem doesn't lie in the fat (unless it isn't organic), but whether the meat is freshly cooked (and I'm specifically referring to stews and roasts here), or if it's re heated. Strangely enough, I do very bad with freshly cooked stews/roasts, and seem to have no problems at all when they are re heated. When I first noticed this I didn't quite believe it and put it down to the liquid fat that is more abundant in newly cooked meat. But, time and time again, and experiencing with eating little fat, I get the same reaction. If I don't have an extremely small portion, my digestion tends to stop. But if I eat it the next day, AFTER it has cooled down, I can eat it without a problem.

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fwiw I remember that (things like roast beef) should be allowed to rest (cool) after cooking for some time before eating....here's the science I found (in this case a rare steak):
_http://www.seriouseats.com/2009/12/how-to-have-juicy-meats-steaks-the-food-lab-the-importance-of-resting-grilling.html

After No Resting:
The meat around the exterior of the steak (the parts that were closest to the pan) are well over 200°F (93.3°C). At this temperature range, they are pinched tightly shut, preventing them from holding on to any moisture. The center of the steak is at 125°F. While it can hold on to some of its juices at this temperature, cutting the meat fibers open is like slitting the side of a soda bottle: some juice might stay in there (mostly through surface tension), but liquid is going to spill.

After 5 Minutes of Resting:
The outermost layers of meat are down to around 145°F (62.8°C) and the center of the steak is still at 125°F. At this stage, the muscle fibers have relaxed a bit, stretching open a little wider. This stretching motion creates a pressure differential between the center of the muscle fiber and the ends, pulling some of the liquid out from the middle towards the edges. As a result, there is less liquid in the center of the steak. Cut it open now, and some of the liquid will still spill out, but far less than before.

After 10 Minutes of Resting:
The edges of the steak have cooled all the way down to around 125°F, allowing them to suck up even more liquid from the center of the steak. What's more, the center of the steak has by this time cooled down to around 120°F, causing it to widen slightly. Cut the meat open at this stage, and the liquid will be so evenly and thinly distributed throughout the steak that surface tension is enough to keep it from spilling out on the plate.

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I remember that others have mentioned that making sure meat is not over cooked also seems to help with energy/digestion. The two could be related?
I usually have to have a mug of water or so with my meals....less so with cooled meat. So its possible that the freshly cooked meat (as it cools in the stomach) is acting like a sponge and absorbing the liquid, thus negating digestion? Cooled meat would not have this effect I think...
Also soaking meat before may help, and in cider vinegar may break down the muscle chains - potentially removing the sponge effect after heating/cooking?

RedFox said:

I remember that others have mentioned that making sure meat is not over cooked also seems to help with energy/digestion. The two could be related?
...So its possible that the freshly cooked meat (as it cools in the stomach) is acting like a sponge and absorbing the liquid, thus negating digestion?

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I don't think so. What you've quoted above is concerned with the juiciness of the steak itself. Once it hits the stomach, digestive enzymes and stomach acid have taken over - it's a completely different dynamic. I think there is a tendency, at times, to over think these things and I don't think that makes a lot of sense.

Miss.K said:

I have been eating a few apples in the last month though. There is an empty house on my road, with a very nice abundant apple tree, and some of my little I's, convinced the others, that if we were wild humans, we'd definitely eat those apples if we were so lucky to find them. I'm NOT good at remembering to buy supplements, like vitamins, and often forget to eat them when I remember to buy them, (I think maybe taking pills make me feel like I'm sick since I need them, and that's why)
So I know there is too much sugar in apples, but figured that I might need something of the other stuff they have , since my sugar cravings (for other sweet stuff than apples) have subsided completely, and not even the smell and sound of other people eating candy right in front of me, gives the least bit mouth water! I have not had problems with the apples, but suspect that I stop weight loss (don't matter much) when adding apples to the diet (between one and four a day) and also the stomach looks a bit bigger suggesting return of candida. (after a four apple day)

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I've been having a hive pop up here and there lately (not including the rash on my forehead). Eating seafood/shellfish would give me a few hives on occassion, but I haven't had any lately. The other day I ate an organic apple, after not eating them for a while. About a half hour later I got a hive below my lip. I'm not sure whether to attribute the hive to the apple or not. I usually don't react very fast (or at all) to eating/not eating various foods.

Trevrizent said:

As a test, you may like to consider marinating fresh meat (other than lamb) in cider vinegar overnight before cooking and see what effect this has - it may 'cure' theproblem.

This may help or not.

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Yes, will do. Thank you Trevrizent.

Redfox said:

I remember that others have mentioned that making sure meat is not over cooked also seems to help with energy/digestion.

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Thanks for the reminder. In that sense, stews could be considered overcooked meat, right? Although it isn't the same as overcooking a steak in high heat, for example.

Added: despite this, over the last 2 weeks my mood has been extremely good and my energy levels have gone up, so high, in fact, that it reminds me of how I felt during my first days in Ketosis.
Things that have changed were: increased lard consumption, started taking iodine, started taking plenty of liquid fish oil, and some cod liver oil. I'm not sure of what has caused what, but I am feeling really good.

Gertrudes said:

...Thanks for the reminder. In that sense, stews could be considered overcooked meat, right? Although it isn't the same as overcooking a steak in high heat, for example.

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Consider this...

Deep Nutrition said:

It is a little-known fact that when a chef talks about flavor, he’s also talking about nutrients. When he says some flavors take time to develop, he’s saying sometimes you have to wait for certain nutrients to be released. Cooking meat slow is the best way to turn an ordinary meal into something extraordinary—in terms of taste and nutrition. The potential flavor of meat, or any food, derives from its complexity. Depending on the cut, “meat” may include muscle, tendon, bone, fat, skin, blood, and glands—each a world of chemical diversity. When that diversity is released on your tongue you can taste it, and the rich, savory flavor means a world of nutrients are on their way.

You don’t actually need a slow cooker to cook meat slowly and enjoy all the same benefits. All you need is moisture, time, and parts (as many different tissue types as possible: ligament, bone, fat, skin, etc.). Making soup, stewing, keeping a top on to trap the steam, basting often when cooking in the oven—all these techniques keep the moisture inside the meat, enabling water molecules to make magic happen.

Shanahan MD, Catherine (2011-04-22). Deep Nutrition: Why Your Genes Need Traditional Food. Big Box Books. Kindle Edition.

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Megan said:

Gertrudes said:

...Thanks for the reminder. In that sense, stews could be considered overcooked meat, right? Although it isn't the same as overcooking a steak in high heat, for example.

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Consider this...

Deep Nutrition said:

It is a little-known fact that when a chef talks about flavor, he’s also talking about nutrients. When he says some flavors take time to develop, he’s saying sometimes you have to wait for certain nutrients to be released. Cooking meat slow is the best way to turn an ordinary meal into something extraordinary—in terms of taste and nutrition. The potential flavor of meat, or any food, derives from its complexity. Depending on the cut, “meat” may include muscle, tendon, bone, fat, skin, blood, and glands—each a world of chemical diversity. When that diversity is released on your tongue you can taste it, and the rich, savory flavor means a world of nutrients are on their way.

You don’t actually need a slow cooker to cook meat slowly and enjoy all the same benefits. All you need is moisture, time, and parts (as many different tissue types as possible: ligament, bone, fat, skin, etc.). Making soup, stewing, keeping a top on to trap the steam, basting often when cooking in the oven—all these techniques keep the moisture inside the meat, enabling water molecules to make magic happen.

Shanahan MD, Catherine (2011-04-22). Deep Nutrition: Why Your Genes Need Traditional Food. Big Box Books. Kindle Edition.

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The "taste" referred to in Megan's quote is the reason we like to slow cook things like short ribs (lots of fat), chuck roasts, etc in beef/bone broth with onions, garlic (& a little ACV), and sometimes organic berry preserves (no more than a TBLSP to a big pot). If the roast is lean, we'll add fat. The result is deeply satisfying and reheating generates many great meals.

Hi Gertrudes, maybe you will find this link helpful: Temperature and Digestion

And maybe as your gut continues to heal, and its digestion abilities strengthens, you won't have such problems anymore.

-

For those who want to start using lard, and are new to it, here's a link on how to render it that I found helpful: How to Render Lard

Megan said:

Deep Nutrition said:

It is a little-known fact that when a chef talks about flavor, he’s also talking about nutrients. When he says some flavors take time to develop, he’s saying sometimes you have to wait for certain nutrients to be released. Cooking meat slow is the best way to turn an ordinary meal into something extraordinary—in terms of taste and nutrition.

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That's good to know, thanks Megan.

Oxajil said:

Hi Gertrudes, maybe you will find this link helpful: Temperature and Digestion

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Thanks Oxajil, that's actually one of the pages I have read that first gave me the idea that temperature could be the issue. I'm still not sure of this though.

Oxajil said:

For those who want to start using lard, and are new to it, here's a link on how to render it that I found helpful: How to Render Lard

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I noticed a huge difference in my ability to digest fat since I started buying organic grass fed ghee and rendering my own lard. It is a world of difference. So for members who are able to buy pure pork fat, I think you wil find it much more delicious when compared with the commercial brands.

This reminds me:

Gertrudes said:

RedFox said:

Can't rate them highly enough!

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I'm totally with you there, I love pork scratchings!

RedFox said:

One note of caution, you need strong teeth for these. Which brings up an interesting point.....I found eating them really easy yet my parents struggled so it seems the paleo diet is really good at strengthening teeth.

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I'll have to ask my partner how he does them, but I have very sensitive teeth and can't eat anything too hard, the pork scratchings he does are either crispy or soft, and very easily breakable with your teeth. I know that he fries them but will ask him for the specifics of the technique.

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Two weeks ago we rendered some lard and made pork scratchings. The secret for stove rendering is to have the pieces of fat cooking on very, very low heat. Just a little bit too high and they'll harden. It is also important to take all bits of skin off, if any, as the skin will also harden. Skin does great stews though, it stays soft and yummy.

We also made sure to keep just one layer of pieces of fat, if you add too much they won't cook evenly, and will also tend to harden. This does take a while to do, for us it was a whole day because we had a lot of fat, although you can always do other things whilst leaving the fat on the stove, occasionally glancing at it, taking out what's cooked and adding more.

We had about 5 days supply of pork scratchings afterwards and boy, are they delicious! They're also extremely filling, so a good way to cut out on food bills.

Psyche said:

How Does Pork Prepared in Various Ways Affect the Blood?

Written by Beverly Rubik, PhD
October 3 2011
An Investigation via Live Blood Analysis

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Several things stand out for me in this article. First of all, they analyzed only 3 people. That is a lot of conclusions for the analysis of several foods in only 3 people. Two of them are men almost in their 60s, the other is a woman of almost 40 years old.

Second, the 3 of them have been on a Weston Price diet for 45 weeks which is definitely exc in comparison to the average American. But they have dairy (raw), grains (fermented, but still). They're not on a low carb diet nor on a gluten free diet either. Actually, it seems that plant proteins are the ones related to complications due to acidity and not animal proteins. More info here: http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.com/2011/02/does-protein-leach-calcium-from-bones.html

Then, their pork chops were a middle cut with no fat added. They were cooked in water and I have a hard time imagining that they had a fatty cut.

Then, what makes me even more suspicious is the method used, "Live Blood Analysis". My take on it is that it is subjective, not sensible nor specific. I'm open minded to a different view according to new data. I'm suspicious of blood tests and their standardization and this one in particular sounds even more suspicious.

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In my attempting to keep up with this thread, I missed the original posting of this report and posted the Rubik study in a separate thread this morning [mods - please move it or pull it if you feel it is redundant].

I too pointed out the statistical insignificance of a 3 person study, but I did do a 24 hour apple cider vinegar marinate, in the fridge, of a nice fatty pork chop, and had it for dinner a few hours ago. First impression was that it did tenderize and moisturize the meat, and added an interesting but subtle flavor. It tasted not of acidic vinegar, but of a mild, apple flavored sweetness, especially in the fat. I don't know if this is a good thing or not, but it tasted fine, and went down easy, which is important for me with my esophageal problem... which, by the way, has improved considerably since this summer. I don't know if it is the effects of the diet, or the regimen of corticosteroids that began in mid-August, to treat a serious inflammation issue. I am just about weaned from the steroids now, so it will be interesting to see how much change the diet has wrought, once the pharma stuff is out of the system. Obviously inflammation has been at the root of all of my recent health changes, as well as one very long term one.

The dark field microscope didn't seem to be an issue in the report since she was only looking for live red blood cell activity and this is what this type of microscopy does best, when using unstained samples. At best, the study can only be considered anecdotal, but it is an interesting enough hypothesis to warrant self testing and observation, at least for myself... so long as the marinating does not in some way decrease or inhibit the nutritional benefits of the pork. I can't find anything about that.

Seekin Truth's question about marinating ground pork brings up another question. Is the pork to be marinated before mincing/grinding? Can you marinate already ground pork - and have it still remain easy to work with in patties, and not be overpowered by the vinegar taste? It would seem a messy proposition, but then I have never tried it.