"Life Without Bread"

Thanks for the replies. Haven't gotten around to making buttered tea yet, but got the same loose stool effect from eating a big bag of nuts and a chocolate which I thought was xylitol sweetened but wasn't. I've been having troubles dosing magnesium as it makes me sleepy and zone out so no good to do before bedtime, where I used to do 850 mg maletate as it also makes for better restedness, but then came some nights where I became awake and restless and I blamed it on the magnesium, so I've skipped taking it the last couple of weeks. I'm just having a bit of difficulties mixing observations and causality while trying to gain awareness on supplementation needs and effects. I will try halfing dose and see what that does.

The Unspoken Truth about the Paleo Diet & Weight Loss

http://paleo.com.au/2012/02/paleo-diet-weight-loss/

by Suz on February 17, 2012 · 9 comments

in Paleo, Weight Loss

The widely reported Paleo message is that if you follow a strict Paleo diet, you will effortlessly lose weight. I’m reading more and more comments on Paleo forums from disappointed people, reporting that they have not lost weight – and in some cases have even put on weight. This was my experience too, until I finally understood the missing piece to the Paleo weight loss puzzle.

When I initially changed my diet, at that time to more of a Primal diet, I very quickly lost a lot of weight and several dress sizes, effortlessly. Looking back, I think a large part of this was due to replacing high calorie, refined foods, with more satiating whole (Paleo) foods. However, without apparent reason the weight loss reached a plateau after a few months. I remained strictly Paleo, I reduced my fruit intake and stopped eating nuts. I continued to work-out. Yet my weight would not budge; very frustrating.

Over Christmas I began to think more and more about portion sizes – the one variable I had overlooked before. Most of the key Paleo bloggers and experts did not come to Paleo overweight. They were often unhealthy and unwell, but rarely overweight. Whilst not expressly stated, the “Paleo message” that could be construed is that provided you eat the right things (i.e. Paleo foods), you can eat as much as you like (perhaps even “the more you eat, the more beneficial the effects become”). From what I’ve read, it appears that when you are overweight the hormones and signalling in your body become distorted – meaning that what works for someone of a “normal” weight, will not work in the same way for someone who is overweight. At least, not until they restore the balance and signalling. I’ve been particularly interested in reading Dr Jack Kruses Leptin Reset ideas in this regard.

For the last six weeks I’ve been challenging and significantly reducing my portions. I’ve not been weighing and counting calories, nor have I changed what I eat. I’ve simply been eating a lot less. For example, where I’d have had three serving spoons of soup or beanless chilli, I now have two – and I don’t have seconds. Where I’d have had three rashers of bacon and two eggs, I now have two rashers of bacon and one egg. When I Intermittently Fast, I’m careful not to expand the size of my first post-fast meal to compensate.

I’ve lost 7kg in the last six weeks (15 pounds) and finally smashed through that plateau. I think this is proof enough that a Paleo diet – with reduced portion sizes, is the essential combination for weight loss.

I don’t know what happens at the right body weight, but I am expecting to find (when I get there) that I will be able to eat as much Paleo food as I like, with no adverse effect on my weight or body composition. In the meantime, it’s clear that reducing portion sizes is the right approach.

Essentially, I think the Paleo diet needs are very different for an athletic individual, compared to an overweight individual.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this – have you had similar experiences? Do you agree that portion control is essential for weight loss, on a Paleo diet?

Weight loss clearly can be tricky business. The one thing that definitely takes off weight for many people is starving oneself, except that it doesn't work because you gain it back again. A neo-paleo diet gives you freedom to eat when you are hungry, not having to frequently "stoke the fire" and not having a skewed appetite that is always craving food even when you are full (or vice versa in the case of underweight). But it's just a tool.

What has made losing weight tricky for me is that when I eat less -- something that is very easy to do now -- I become constipated. Clearly there is something wrong with my GI tract, and there has been all along (and I have known that). Eating paleo doesn't make it go away. I had things working fairly smoothly by the end of last year and then I ate something (perhaps containing whole-grain wheat) that triggered a systemic allergic reaction and I have still not recovered a month and a half later, despite being extremely careful.

Each one of us has a different configuration to work with. Some of us (for one reason or another) need a bit of fiber. Others can't tolerate it. Some can dive in to a new diet, while others need to change very gradually. You have to use the tools at your disposal to try different things, recognizing that what's "good" for one person can be "bad" for another, avoiding judgement except as it applies to your personal results, while taking the time to learn what you are doing since what appears to be good results might not really be, all things considered. It's tricky.

Megan said:

What has made losing weight tricky for me is that when I eat less -- something that is very easy to do now -- I become constipated.

Click to expand...

Whats your potassium intake like? I generally have to take some in the morning/before bed with a full glass of water to keep things moving. Being paleo for a while now I have a very low tolerance for vitamin C and magnesium, so if I get constipated a small dose of either/both gets things moving again.
That's not to say fibre in the form of kale/beetroot/nuts doesn't helps, but I can go fibre free and keep things moving with enough potassium (salt water helps too) - as it seems the constipation is tied to dehydration/lack of minerals in my case.

Speaking of lack of minerals, I'd started to get dry flaky skin (as mentioned by others in the thread)...only it wasn't flaking so much as just dry.
I tried out a few things and hit the jackpot with zinc as I had a tonenail that was slightly white/brittle (on an empty stomach away from food) - i started flaking like crazy and is now replaced with new skin. My energy and mood have vastly improved too, so much so it was like putting rocket fuel in the tank. I did have a few days of chocolate/nut cravings (copper and other trace minerals perhaps) which then went away. My body seems to be distinctly in repair/growth mode right now.

RedFox said:

Megan said:

What has made losing weight tricky for me is that when I eat less -- something that is very easy to do now -- I become constipated.

Click to expand...

Whats your potassium intake like? ...

Click to expand...

I get potassium from chard, bone broth, and sea salt. I tried a supplement for a while and didn't notice any difference. I seem to be having problems with nuts -- possibly a cross reaction of some kind -- and am currently avoiding them after a scary incident last month, but I have enough other sources that it shouldn't matter.

RedFox said:

Speaking of lack of minerals, I'd started to get dry flaky skin (as mentioned by others in the thread)...only it wasn't flaking so much as just dry.
I tried out a few things and hit the jackpot with zinc as I had a tonenail that was slightly white/brittle (on an empty stomach away from food) - i started flaking like crazy and is now replaced with new skin. My energy and mood have vastly improved too, so much so it was like putting rocket fuel in the tank. I did have a few days of chocolate/nut cravings (copper and other trace minerals perhaps) which then went away. My body seems to be distinctly in repair/growth mode right now.

Click to expand...

That's really interesting. I've also had dry red skin with a tendency to flakiness on the backs of my hands. I'll try taking zinc and see what happens.

My big problem at present is muscle twitches in my calves, and sometimes cramps usually in my right calf in bed at night, and sometimes in my feet and left calf, all of which can be quite agonising.

I've been experimenting with various mineral and other supplements and my current mode of treatment is 900mg magnesium citrate divided into three doses daily ; calcium citrate complex (calcium citrate and calcium carbonate) 1500mg divided into three doses daily; chelated potassium 99mg three times daily. This combination seems to be helping and I have had an occasional night during which I have not had any cramps or twitches. So I'm thinking that I'm on the right track here.

Carolyn Dean states (if I recall correctly) that muscle twitches and cramps are invariably caused by a magnesium deficiency but I have not found this to be entirely true. Other information I've read has pointed to the interaction of magnesium, calcium and potassium, hence my current protocol. I think that my viral illness last year most likely depleted my body's magnesium and it does take a long time to replace – up to a year according to Dean.

I'm also taking a tissue salt, Magnesium Phosphate, which seems to be helping the cramp/twitching issue, although the tissue salts work quite slowly and subtly and I've only been taking the Mag. Phos. for a couple of weeks. I've been taking Ferrous Phosphate (tissue salt) for a couple of months now and it has worked wonders for my circulation and for restoring my energy after my bout of post viral fatigue.

Homeopathy-Help said:

TISSUE SALTS from DR SCHEUSSLER
NUTRITIONAL micro supplementation, occasionally homeopathic

One of Hahnemann's early disciples, Dr Wilhem Schüessler, was an early adapter of this new system of medicine. At first, he used the full range of homeopathic medicines in his practice, but gradually he narrowed them down to the use of inorganic substances and developed a range of homeopathic medicines based upon twelve of the most common mineral tissue salts found in the human body and critical for health maintenance.

Dr Scheussler devised the tissue salts as nutritional therapy. He noted that when there was a deficiency of certain 'tissue salts' then sypmtoms would be produced. He concluded therefore that that fastest way to resolve these symptoms was to reintroduce these substances into the body by taking them in the 6x dilution where they could be absorbed directly in the mouth. So tissue salts are used as a nutritional supplementation, according to symptoms.

Tissue salts are not prescribed homeopathically but nutritionally. For the homeopathic prescribing picture of the same substances see the A-Z links at the top of the normal materia medica. Instead of the dilution having the ratio of 1:99 as in homeopathic remedies, the Tissue salts are prepared to the ratio of 1:9, which means that they still contain physical quantities, although minute, of the original substances. Rather than treating "like with like" though these tissue salt remedies treat ailments by correcting imbalances or deficiencies in the body's cell nutrition.

Click to expand...

I'm also having butter tea twice a day, made with lots of butter! I've had to reduce my magnesium intake to the amount I mentioned earlier, and my vitamin C intake to a maximum of two grams a day taken in four doses, as my stools have been and still are really loose. I suspect my consumption of large amounts of butter plays a role in that, and I'll be experimenting with eating less butter to see what happens. It's a shame though as I love the butter tea. Even just a spoon or two of butter with some xylitol mashed into it makes a delicious snack, taking care of any cravings. I don't want to reduce my magnesium any further as I want to replace my body's stores.

I think it was you, RedFox, who mentioned that you interpreted a carb craving as a need for energy and ate some fat which took care of the cravings. I've followed this principle and I find that eating some butter when I'm noticing a craving is really effective. I think that this type of craving is simply a mental habit. Our minds are so used to having our hunger needs satisfied by carbs that any need on the body's part for energy automatically triggers a mental vision of carbs.

Endymion said:

calcium citrate complex (calcium citrate and calcium carbonate) 1500mg divided into three doses daily;

Click to expand...

Generally speaking, that's way too much calcium from what I understand. Most people take way too much calcium and it's not at all necessary. Psyche has written about this on the forum, I think - search for 'bone cutter' since she talks about doing heart surgery and having to cut the heart muscle with a bone cutter due to excess calcium.

Magnesium and potassium are both necessary due to the lack of both in our current food supply, though.

anart said:

Endymion said:

calcium citrate complex (calcium citrate and calcium carbonate) 1500mg divided into three doses daily;

Click to expand...

Generally speaking, that's way too much calcium from what I understand. Most people take way too much calcium and it's not at all necessary. Psyche has written about this on the forum, I think - search for 'bone cutter' since she talks about doing heart surgery and having to cut the heart muscle with a bone cutter due to excess calcium.

Magnesium and potassium are both necessary due to the lack of both in our current food supply, though.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reminder, anart. I did know that the RDA is 500mg, but I'm a bit desperate! In bed I have to be really careful how I move in case movement triggers a cramp. I'll try taking the lower dose just at bedtime and see how that goes. Perhaps I just need to be patient while the various things work.

The funny thing is, and this is what suggests to me that my illness depleted my body's magnesium, is that I fixed the twitching and cramp issue before I was ill, by using the same protocol. But it's been building up again recently. I've also been forgetting to take vitamin D3 with the calcium supplement – D3 helps calcium absorption. So I think I'll reduce the calcium intake and resume D3 intake.

Endymion said:

anart said:

Endymion said:

calcium citrate complex (calcium citrate and calcium carbonate) 1500mg divided into three doses daily;

Click to expand...

Generally speaking, that's way too much calcium from what I understand. Most people take way too much calcium and it's not at all necessary. Psyche has written about this on the forum, I think - search for 'bone cutter' since she talks about doing heart surgery and having to cut the heart muscle with a bone cutter due to excess calcium.

Magnesium and potassium are both necessary due to the lack of both in our current food supply, though.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reminder, anart. I did know that the RDA is 500mg, but I'm a bit desperate! In bed I have to be really careful how I move in case movement triggers a cramp. I'll try taking the lower dose just at bedtime and see how that goes. Perhaps I just need to be patient while the various things work.

The funny thing is, and this is what suggests to me that my illness depleted my body's magnesium, is that I fixed the twitching and cramp issue before I was ill, by using the same protocol. But it's been building up again recently. I've also been forgetting to take vitamin D3 with the calcium supplement – D3 helps calcium absorption. So I think I'll reduce the calcium intake and resume D3 intake.

Click to expand...

I really don't think your problem is calcium. Magnesium, however, helps calcium absorption. Any time I've had leg cramps, when I up my magnesium they go away (potassium is helpful as well). Calcium does not relax muscles, so I'm not sure why you're linking calcium to a lessening of leg cramps. It could be that they're not going away because of the calcium. This has been discussed at some length on the forum, so it might be worth reading up on it?

anart said:

Endymion said:

anart said:

Endymion said:

calcium citrate complex (calcium citrate and calcium carbonate) 1500mg divided into three doses daily;

Click to expand...

Generally speaking, that's way too much calcium from what I understand. Most people take way too much calcium and it's not at all necessary. Psyche has written about this on the forum, I think - search for 'bone cutter' since she talks about doing heart surgery and having to cut the heart muscle with a bone cutter due to excess calcium.

Magnesium and potassium are both necessary due to the lack of both in our current food supply, though.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reminder, anart. I did know that the RDA is 500mg, but I'm a bit desperate! In bed I have to be really careful how I move in case movement triggers a cramp. I'll try taking the lower dose just at bedtime and see how that goes. Perhaps I just need to be patient while the various things work.

The funny thing is, and this is what suggests to me that my illness depleted my body's magnesium, is that I fixed the twitching and cramp issue before I was ill, by using the same protocol. But it's been building up again recently. I've also been forgetting to take vitamin D3 with the calcium supplement – D3 helps calcium absorption. So I think I'll reduce the calcium intake and resume D3 intake.

Click to expand...

I really don't think your problem is calcium. Magnesium, however, helps calcium absorption. Any time I've had leg cramps, when I up my magnesium they go away (potassium is helpful as well). Calcium does not relax muscles, so I'm not sure why you're linking calcium to a lessening of leg cramps. It could be that they're not going away because of the calcium. This has been discussed at some length on the forum, so it might be worth reading up on it?

Click to expand...

Just want to add that I have found that upping the salt intake, as in salting my food more, or a tspn of salt in a glass of water, really helps with the cramps as eating a high fat/low carb diet, we release more salt from the body.

fwiw

Just to add, people tend to over supplement calcium without enough fat in their diet (and when they take the supplements -- has to be in the presence of fat for proper absorption) and vitamin D, magnesium, etc. and expect to have stronger bones. But it doesn't work that way. Without enough vitamin D and magnesium, etc. they will NOT have strong bones and without enough fat in the diet none of those will be properly absorbed.

So, in the case of calcium over supplementation, it just gets deposited in different body tissues and isn't utilized in the bones. That's why I think people have calcified hearts / valves, etc. Bad diet (low fat, high carb) and too much calcium supplementation.

Also, I may be wrong but I was under the impression that calcium DOES relax muscles like magnesium and potassium.

Endymion said:

My big problem at present is muscle twitches in my calves, and sometimes cramps usually in my right calf in bed at night, and sometimes in my feet and left calf, all of which can be quite agonising.

Click to expand...

Another thing to consider is your protein intake. Are eating more then 0.8g of protein times your body weight?
I have never had cramps in my life, until I started the paleo diet. Initially I was having a lot of protein, and as our research progressed I realized that I had to seriously cut my protein intake. My cramps disappeared completely.

Also, although I haven't personally tried it, several members reported good results in alleviating cramps by taking L-carnitine. L-carnitine helps for the fat to be better absorbed by the mitochondria, if fat isn't being well absorbed, you won't be making use of the fuel which can result in less energy and possible muscle cramps.

Endymion said:

My big problem at present is muscle twitches in my calves, and sometimes cramps usually in my right calf in bed at night, and sometimes in my feet and left calf, all of which can be quite agonising.

Click to expand...

Adding to what other have said, I noticed I needed calcium at the beginning of the diet (a very small amount) to fix the cramping....but I was taking it in the form of electrolytes. The other components being sodium (salt) and potassium. So I upped the sea/Himalayan salt on my food (and drank slightly salty water), and took more potassium instead and the cramps went away completely.
So I think anart may be correct in saying the calcium could be keeping the cramps hanging around. Taking sufficient fish oil seems to be important to not getting cramps too.
fwiw cramps and constipation (dehydration/lack of salt/potassium) went hand in hand.....I'd get leg cramps and then notice a day or so later (after fixing it) I was constipated from a few days ago.
It also went hand in hand with eating something my body didn't like....that is it seems that if my gut rejects something I've eaten, I also don't absorb water/minerals and thus get cramps and/or loose weight.

Something I wanted to address from a few pages back...

Gertrudes said:

A few months ago I started taking plenty of fish and cod liver oil in liquid form. I'm taking more then the amount recommended in the bottles. I noticed that my mood, which is geneally good, skyrocketed!

Click to expand...

I had a self observation a few months ago that I found really useful along these lines....but from the opposite perspective.
My mood had been really quite good and I had good clarity of thought, until one night when I had a reaction to something I'd eaten. I woke up some time in the middle of the night needing the toilet, and sitting there waiting for my guts to get rid of whatever it was I noticed that my mind started to become filled with all my old programs/thoughts (automatic negative thoughts, depressed mood, thought loops, negative/obsessive thinking etc etc)....and it dawned on me that perhaps all they where, was misinterpretted signals from my guts that something negative was going on.....when my guts had done what they needed to do, these thoughts and programs evaporated and I was left with the previous good mood and clarity of thought.
I've since been trying to ask (if I am in a bad mood for no obvious reason or am having negative thoughts) what my body or subconscious may be trying to tell me about its state or my environment....that is being represented by negative thoughts/moods.

Endymion said:

Thanks for the reminder, anart. I did know that the RDA is 500mg, but I'm a bit desperate! In bed I have to be really careful how I move in case movement triggers a cramp. I'll try taking the lower dose just at bedtime and see how that goes. Perhaps I just need to be patient while the various things work.

The funny thing is, and this is what suggests to me that my illness depleted my body's magnesium, is that I fixed the twitching and cramp issue before I was ill, by using the same protocol. But it's been building up again recently. I've also been forgetting to take vitamin D3 with the calcium supplement – D3 helps calcium absorption. So I think I'll reduce the calcium intake and resume D3 intake.

Click to expand...

Several months ago I would get these REALLY bad muscle cramps, especially in my legs, neck and shoulders! What has worked for me is the taking of magnesium (200mg 3 times a day) and potassium supplements (99mg 3 times daily). That seemed to take care of it since the cramps went away within a week after taking those two supplements. Any calcium I get is mostly from the eating of regular foods such as sardines and fatty meats and sometimes from a multivitamin/mineral supplement. Now I just eat mainly fatty meats along with omega 3 supplements and not much else. I do take vitamin supplements sometimes but the fatty meats seem to be all that is really needed. The cramps have never returned.

Yes, I had cramps a while back too, a couple of months into the keto adaptation. And extra magnesium, potassium, and Himalayan salt (in water from brine I make) and sea salt (on food and in water) got rid of them. It's also important to have the electrolyte minerals in a certain balance -- although it's hard to come across consistent information of what exactly that is. So there's usually recommendations of what the ratios of these (calcium, sodium, potassium, and magnesium) should be. But I've never been able to confirm what are the right ratios. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could chime in.

Gertrudes said:

Endymion said:

My big problem at present is muscle twitches in my calves, and sometimes cramps usually in my right calf in bed at night, and sometimes in my feet and left calf, all of which can be quite agonising.

Click to expand...

Another thing to consider is your protein intake. Are eating more then 0.8g of protein times your body weight?
I have never had cramps in my life, until I started the paleo diet. Initially I was having a lot of protein, and as our research progressed I realized that I had to seriously cut my protein intake. My cramps disappeared completely.

Also, although I haven't personally tried it, several members reported good results in alleviating cramps by taking L-carnitine. L-carnitine helps for the fat to be better absorbed by the mitochondria, if fat isn't being well absorbed, you won't be making use of the fuel which can result in less energy and possible muscle cramps.

Click to expand...

I've also read that Acetyl-L-Carnitine usually works better than L-Carnitine. That's what I've been taking (Acetyl) for more than 6 months. Also, just to mention, there's plenty of L-carnitine in meats of all types (animal foods).

If you do try to lower your protein intake, you'll probably need to increase about the same number of calories in fat so that you're not hungry (and have more energy).