"Life Without Bread"

Another installment is coming up in the paleo "safe starch" debate, from Nora Gedgaudas. I am sure it will be interesting. It is happening Thursday at 7 PM EDT USA -- 2300 UCT?? (see the link below).

Nora Gedgaudas
‏@NoraGedgaudas

Do you have any questions for about “safe starches” that you’d like me to tackle in this week’s ATLCX episode?...
_http://fb.me/1FkMedLh8

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The debate itself can be confusing. From what I can tell, those in the paleo community following a ketogenic diet are in the minority, and higher starch intake is not such an issue for many. If you are unable to sustain a ketogenic diet then this makes sense, or if you simply don't intend to be part of the experiment to see if a ketogenic diet improves mental/physical ability.

Personally, I want to be part of that experiment for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it is medically indicated for me, but like others here that can't drop down extremely low in carbs, I find myself relying on a limited amount of certain "safe starches" such as sweet potato to keep my GI tract working, while still avoiding nightshades (due to arthritis), white rice (which I don't tolerate well, quite apart from it being a grain), and other foods that some researchers count as "safe."

So it is not necessarily an "either/or" choice, and I watch the continuing debate with interest.

Here is an interesting blog post about "calories," via Chris Kresser. There is a lot of confusion about calories. For example, people can get the idea that if they go low carb and stop counting calories, it no longer matter how many calories they consume. Actually, the way it is supposed to work is that when you alter the foods that you eat toward high fat/moderate protein/low carbs, your appetite should be reduced and you won't consume as much raw fuel. And while the "calories in/calories out" hypothesis doesn't take into account homeostatic regulation of adipose tissue, when applied globally to a system (such as you) it does reflect thermodynamic reality. To me, the bottom line is don't oversimplify complex issues.


_http://www.coreconceptswellness.com/blog/the-sensible-middle-part-1-in-defence-of-calories

Is a Calorie a Calorie?

The answer to this question is a resounding ...“kind of, but not really”. I’m going to make this as mercifully short and un-nerdy as possible. Keep in mind the essence of my pro-calories argument isn’t that the caloric model is an exact and infallible calculation that will work for everybody under any circumstance. I make this disclaimer because invariably I get the “3500 kcal of Gummi Bears is different than 3500 kcal of salmon and cauliflower”. Yes I get that, thank you. Herein lays the asterisk beside the “calories in, calories out” theory. Tis true that different macronutrients (carbs, protein and fat) have varying physiological ramifications – in this case, protein is more metabolically costly to handle.

This doesn’t mean, however that the calorie theory is incorrect, nor does it mean that calories are NOT the primary predictor of weight maintenance. So – the asterisk here is that protein intake needs to be adequate.

My thesis then is that calories matter the MOST when it comes to fat loss and fat gain. You cannot escape the fact that you have to be in a consistent calorie deficit to lose or a chronic caloric surplus to gain fat – regardless of your macronutrient composition (insert asterisk here).

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You can read more at the above link.

Fish update: Since just before my last post, I've eaten at least one meal of fish per day. The last few days I've had two meals of fish a day (breakfast, and dinner at six in the evening) and nothing more. It satisfies me completely, and I don't need any lunch at all.

I don't need as much fat either - when eating meat, I add plenty of pork fat, often ending up with 50% meat and 50% fat. Perhaps my huge need for fat was due to missing something in my food - now supplied by the fish? I felt like something was still missing in my food before, but couldn't figure it out - and fish oil only helped a little when I tried it during a few periods in the past. Actual fish does much more, indeed.

As an experiment, I'll keep going like this for a while, mainly eating fish. (I have it very lightly cooked using a bit of water in the frying pan, and salted, of course. That's it.)

Oxajil said:

dugdeep said:

You know, I seem to have been having some issues with onions and avocados, recently. I've been darn close to zero carb for over a year now and a couple of months back I decided to start adding some carbs back in for the summer. I've been experimenting with different things, but finally got frustrated and just went back to zero carbs. It seems I can't really add back any but the most minimal carb without suffering some sort of cravings. And it seems that onion, and possibly avocado, give me the worst constipation and very hard-to-pass stool. I'm not 100% sure it's the onion or the avocado but I have a strong suspicion. Maybe I'm FODMAP sensitive too...

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Have you tried organic samphire (sea vegetable) yet? I don't seem to be sensitive to that. You may also want to look into seaweed. That is, if you're looking for some extra things you can eat with your dish. They also seem suitable for FODMAP sensitivity, but you're gonna have to test them if you want to try them out. Fwiw.

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Thanks, Oxajil. I have experimented a little with sea vegetables and they do seem to suit me fairly well and didn't lead to cravings. I was at a lunch training where they were serving sushi and I ended up eating some sashimi (raw fish, no rice) chicken skewers and a good helping of seaweed salad. There were no real issues from that (even though I suspect there was soy sauce on the salad).

I'm experimenting with avocado on its own today to see if that causes the same issue as I suspect the onions do.

Psalehesost said:

Unlike you, I don't get any major gut issues from adding a bit of carbs -

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Just to clarify, I don't find all carbs are giving me gut issues. I suspect it's onions; maybe avocados. I just find it really difficult to raise carbs much without going into craving mode and find myself wanting to go for more and more. It's quite amazing, actually, and makes me wonder why my body would have adapted to accomodate so little in the way of carbs.

dugdeep said:

...Just to clarify, I don't find all carbs are giving me gut issues. I suspect it's onions; maybe avocados. I just find it really difficult to raise carbs much without going into craving mode and find myself wanting to go for more and more. It's quite amazing, actually, and makes me wonder why my body would have adapted to accomodate so little in the way of carbs.

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There are a couple of carb-related situations that cause problems for a number of people, FODMAP sensitivity and SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth). The list of carbs involved in each seems to be similar. Elimination diets for them include a low-FODMAP diet and a "specific carbohydrate diet" (SCD).

I am still learning about both, but from what I have heard so far I suspect that gut bacteria are involved with both. I am wondering if they might both have more to do with the kinds and volumes of bacteria living in one's gut than with other factors such as genetics/epigenetics. I also wonder if over time the balance will improve, possibly eliminating the sensitivity.

I didn't take into account either of these possibilities when I did my original elimination diet, and I am back at square one doing a new 30-day elimination diet (Kresser's Personal Paleo Code) and adding in the FODMAP restrictions. I don't suspect SIBO at this point and the low-FODMAP restrictions seem to be doing the job. If there are other problems that don't go away, I will try the SCD (*sigh*).

One nice thing about being on a ketogenic paleo diet is that when starting an elimination diet, there isn't much to eliminate! The main thing that had to go, as I mentioned, was eggs. The only other food I had to eliminate that was a regular part of my diet was avocado, and that seems to have made a big difference. I fully expect to be able to add eggs back in. Eliminating them had no noticeable effect, as was the case the first time I tried it a year or two back. Eggs are sometimes called a "superfood," and because of the nutrients I really don't want to have to drop them altogether.

The fermentation problem settled down almost immediately, as I mentioned. There has been some other discomfort in the aftermath which I suspect may have resulted from a die-off of the bacteria that were feeding on the FODMAPs. Some of it may also represent an adaptation to a lower (~30g/d) carb intake level after being at 40-50 for a while. The important things, though, are that the excess fermentation seems to have stopped (some is normal) and my GI tract is still behaving fairly normally.

Going through Chris Kresser' FODMAP article again, I don't think that's actually my issue at all. I'm just not experiencing any of the symptoms that he talks about. I don't experience any IBS symptoms, rarely experience any kind of gas (hardly anything at all since going low carb) and generally don't have any signs of fermentation or gut dysbiosis. It's simply not a match.

I'm going to continue to experiment with different carbs to add in to my diet, in limited quantity to keep cravings down, and watch for reactions, digestive or otherwise. But overall, I think I'm close to a zero carber for life. I'm actually OK with that, although it makes social gatherings awkward.

Psalehesost said:

As an experiment, I'll keep going like this for a while, mainly eating fish. (I have it very lightly cooked using a bit of water in the frying pan, and salted, of course. That's it.)

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Today I got lethargic, had the second meal earlier, and then some pork fat for a final dinner. The lack of energy could be unrelated, or it could be that I need more than just the fish, no matter how good it is for my brain.

Hi all. I just want to ask a little if I'm doing right with my diet. I'm reading this thread( I've made a plan of reading number of pages a day).
I eliminate all gluten, dairy sugar at all from my diet. I'm eating only meat, also I can eat some fish, but now when I can, I eat only meat with a lot of sea salt (as much as I enjoy, according to the taste). Also I add some garlic and onion. I like more onion because garlic is not really good for my stomach. I also add sometimes black pepper, but as I understand I should avoid it, because it is inflammatory. And some time ago I eat some peanuts, but also my stomach doesn't like them, so I eliminate them also. I'm taking ascorbic acid somewhere 2mg a day, because if I take more I've got diarrhea. Also I eat lard sometimes. Soon, maybe, I would be in the situation for 2weeks, I think, when I would have to eat some more carbs, however I'll try not eat them. Thanks in advance.

Add: I forget to say that I prefer the most pork. Also I could eat turkey, chicken, duck and beef.
And I eat eggs from time to time. Prefer fried

Hi, I'm the same, slowly getting through the whole thread it's been a real eye-opener.
I've eliminated gluten & dairy and added different meats (previously I was only eating chicken & fish as I'm attempting to lose weight). Very happy to be able to eat different meat with the fats :)

I'm just wondering, normally I eat a cup of oats in the morning and a cup of brown rice later on in the day. Is this too many carbs? Also I know oats contain gluten but I was told this was ok for some reason?

Serg said:

Hi all. I just want to ask a little if I'm doing right with my diet. I'm reading this thread( I've made a plan of reading number of pages a day).
I eliminate all gluten, dairy sugar at all from my diet. I'm eating only meat, also I can eat some fish, but now when I can, I eat only meat with a lot of sea salt (as much as I enjoy, according to the taste). Also I add some garlic and onion. I like more onion because garlic is not really good for my stomach. I also add sometimes black pepper, but as I understand I should avoid it, because it is inflammatory. And some time ago I eat some peanuts, but also my stomach doesn't like them, so I eliminate them also. I'm taking ascorbic acid somewhere 2mg a day, because if I take more I've got diarrhea. Also I eat lard sometimes. Soon, maybe, I would be in the situation for 2weeks, I think, when I would have to eat some more carbs, however I'll try not eat them. Thanks in advance.

Add: I forget to say that I prefer the most pork. Also I could eat turkey, chicken, duck and beef.
And I eat eggs from time to time. Prefer fried

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Are you making sure to get enough fat? Have you read Primal Body, Primal Mind yet? When I made dietary adjustments and didn't do the reading first, I ended up consuming way too much protein and not enough fat, so it really is extremely important to do the reading first.

Rhythmik said:

Hi, I'm the same, slowly getting through the whole thread it's been a real eye-opener.
I've eliminated gluten & dairy and added different meats (previously I was only eating chicken & fish as I'm attempting to lose weight). Very happy to be able to eat different meat with the fats :)

I'm just wondering, normally I eat a cup of oats in the morning and a cup of brown rice later on in the day. Is this too many carbs? Also I know oats contain gluten but I was told this was ok for some reason?

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I would cut the oats and brown rice. I know some buckwheat flours are regularly contaminated with gluten, but buckwheat groats MIGHT be safe--but I don't know for certain and don't eat buckwheat anymore. There are a number of other carb sources, if you're looking for one, that aren't grains and therefore, not nearly as likely to be contaminated with gluten.

For breakfast, you really should be eating meat and fat. I eat bacon and eggs almost every morning.

Rhythmik said:

...I'm just wondering, normally I eat a cup of oats in the morning and a cup of brown rice later on in the day. Is this too many carbs? Also I know oats contain gluten but I was told this was ok for some reason?

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How are your blood sugar levels through the day?

Oats and brown rice are not part of a paleo diet, and low carb paleo is pretty much what people here have been doing. Some may eat wild rice, and in the broader paleo community some eat white rice (the milling removes some of the worst parts), though it isn't really "paleo." It is important to do thorough elimination/challenge testing if you eat such things, and you need to take into account the carb content, which is considerable.

For information about oats/oatmeal see _http://www.marksdailyapple.com/are-oats-healthy or any number of other paleo blogs that discuss the subject. I think they are covered in the recommended reading as well.

This topic began with a discussion of a particular book, Life Without Bread, which teaches about paleo diet and offers a simple limited carb non-ketogenic diet plan. Since then we have read a lot of other books, and discussed paleo diets endlessly. I think it is still important for those that are interested what this forum is about, and not simply looking for paleo diet information, to read this entire topic.

This topic, however, is not structured as a how-to paleo eating guide, and I wonder if we couldn't point people now to one or more of the existing paleo books that are structured guides. There are better books now than the "New Atkins" book, that don't include most of the foods that we avoid here. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be necessary to read a whole pile of books and learn how to piece the information from them together, just to get started with a paleo diet. It's not that complicated, and you don't even need to go very low carb (VLC) at the beginning. More and more writers are recommending a gradual transition, anyway.

I am not at all sure what book(s) to recommend, though. My problem is that I don't read paleo diet books any more. I already have the idea of what to do and I read blogs (and research articles) and listen to podcasts. I would be willing to read a few more if it would help to establish a recommendation, however.

Earlier I mentioned one that I have read most of - Sweet Potato Power, and it is good, but I don't know that it is the best of its kind. There is a book about to be released that is receiving very favorable reviews, Practical Paleo by Diane Sanfilippo, but it is not even available to purchase yet. It is coming out August 7th. I have heard quite a bit about it from the author, but I haven't been able to review it.

A paleo diet book cannot, of course, replace all of the other reading that needs to be done. It can, however, help people start to safely straighten out their diets while they they are still doing all that reading. What do the rest of you think? Do you have any book recommendations?

Megan said:

This topic began with a discussion of a particular book, Life Without Bread, which teaches about paleo diet and offers a simple limited carb non-ketogenic diet plan. Since then we have read a lot of other books, and discussed paleo diets endlessly. I think it is still important for those that are interested what this forum is about, and not simply looking for paleo diet information, to read this entire topic.

This topic, however, is not structured as a how-to paleo eating guide, and I wonder if we couldn't point people now to one or more of the existing paleo books that are structured guides. There are better books now than the "New Atkins" book, that don't include most of the foods that we avoid here. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be necessary to read a whole pile of books and learn how to piece the information from them together, just to get started with a paleo diet. It's not that complicated, and you don't even need to go very low carb (VLC) at the beginning. More and more writers are recommending a gradual transition, anyway.

I am not at all sure what book(s) to recommend, though. My problem is that I don't read paleo diet books any more. I already have the idea of what to do and I read blogs (and research articles) and listen to podcasts. I would be willing to read a few more if it would help to establish a recommendation, however.

Earlier I mentioned one that I have read most of - Sweet Potato Power, and it is good, but I don't know that it is the best of its kind. There is a book about to be released that is receiving very favorable reviews, Practical Paleo by Diane Sanfilippo, but it is not even available to purchase yet. It is coming out August 7th. I have heard quite a bit about it from the author, but I haven't been able to review it.

A paleo diet book cannot, of course, replace all of the other reading that needs to be done. It can, however, help people start to safely straighten out their diets while they they are still doing all that reading. What do the rest of you think? Do you have any book recommendations?

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Or maybe we should write one :D

Thanks for the replies, I should be able to cut out the rice & oats without a problem. I'm not sure how to check my blood sugar levels. I don't really feel any difference yet but I haven't been doing this for very long. I guess I will start to feel better once enough time has passed eating the right foods.

And yeah I was going to ask that also, if there was a rough list/guide of foods that are recommended/not recommended by this forum specifically. It would be a great help for some of us to get started while we then go through all the threads/books.

Just a note on eggs.

Before taking glutamine and lactoferrin (which I primarily take for gut healing) I could eat eggs with no problems (or so I thought). But after about 2 months of not having eggs, and reintroducing them (fried) I felt a stomach ache. No other symptoms though, but just some pain in the stomach. So it seems to me atleast that my gut is healing as it is better able to alert me. However, I don't seem to have the same kind of problem with a hard-boiled egg. But for now I'm just gonna keep the eggs away, and maybe have a hard-boiled egg if I really feel a need for it, and continue to heal my gut. I seem to be doing well with onions, garlic and samphire, I also don't seem to have any problems with spices. But mostly I use black pepper and salt anyway. Fwiw.