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TRANSCRIPT 78 - SOTT Perspectives on Cults

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Psalehesost:
Transcript follows. Should something be messed up, feel free to correct it. Should at any rate be good enough to read as-is.

EDIT: Replaced with Breton's updated/corrected version.


--- Quote ---Laura: Hello, I'm Laura Knight-Jadczyk.
Juliana: And I'm Juliana Barembuem. ["Chu"]
Arianna: And I'm Arianna Martin.
Gaby: Hello, I'm Gabriela Segura.
Laura: And this is SOTT Perspectives.
--
Laura: Today we have a particular problem on our mind - right girls? And that problem is the fact that we very often get accused of being a cult, and I get called somebody who wants to be a cult guru, and I can tell you right now - anybody who comes to my house and hangs around with me, my kids, my family - will discover that I'm nothing like a guru.

There's nothing like children for bringing you down and making you realize exactly how much chopped liver you really are. So, I'm pretty much chopped liver around my house, but [Laughter] I get a lot of help and support from the girls, seriously.

So, maybe we should tell a little bit about our particular situation right now - right now we have actually a police investigation going on in the background because a crazy man decided to accuse of us being a cult and inducing his beloved partner - they weren't actually married - to leave him.

This is a story we're going to tell in greater depth in a future show, because we'll have the actual individual, the woman in question, here.

But nevertheless he went down and filed a complaint with the police “judiciaire” in Toulouse - and we discovered by an interesting series of events that we were being investigated, and maybe Juliana wants to tell exactly how that came about, because it's really kind of funny.

Juliana: Well last year we gave a weekend course - as many of you know we teach a program called the Eiriu-Eolas created by Laura and Gaby - and last year we gave a course in the north of France. And about a month ago the police from Toulouse called one of our students to ask them questions such as: Did they ask you to pay you a lot of money? Did they ask you to commit to something in particular? Etc., etc. And it was obvious that they that had looked at our bank account. I don't know [if it’s worth going into too many details of why...

Laura: Now get that, get that! Because somebody accuses you of trying to run a cult - and this is a crazy person, because we have proof that he is a crazy person, we have proof that he is a pathological crazy person, but nevertheless we'll present that proof on another show - but because somebody makes that accusation, France has the authority - or they can get the authority  the police can get the authority  to pull all your bank records!

I mean, what kind of world are we living in where they can pull your bank records based on a slimy disgusting accusation like that?

So, carry on...

Juliana: Well anyhow we were surprised - to say the least - and we contacted the police ourselves. We said, we have to find out what's really happening here, so I talked to one of the captains in Toulouse, who says: Yes, sure, this man - which we won't name...

Laura: Not this time, we'll make it the next time. [Laughter] Wait for the name!

Juliana: ...this man filed a complaint against you saying you're a cult. And so I said, “are you doing an investigation without telling us?” And they said “yes, sure, we’re…” “and have you  looked at your bank records?”, , “…we are doing our investigation”.

Laura: They would never admit that - except tacitly.

Juliana: Anyway she accepted that I went there for an interview, and I was interrogated for four hours, total.

Gaby: Without water.

Laura: They didn't even offer a glass of water, for God's sakes.

Juliana: And as soon as I mentioned him, and told her what I knew about him, she stopped me and said, "These are strong accusations! You can't say that!" Oh, never mind that I had the proof, and it's not just accusations, it is actual papers...

Laura: Yeah, let me explain that - for several days before Juliana went for this interview with the police captain woman, we gathered all of our financial records together, because she had said that she wanted to see our financial records. Well, I mean obviously they wanted to see them because they were snooping around our bank account, but we had nothing to hide, so - we went to the accountant, we got all of our financials, we get everything photocopied, and then we photocopied all of the evidence where this guy has been defaming us on the Internet, and put all of this stuff together in binders.

We had testimonials, we had everything you could possibly imagine that you'd use in your defense, all of it sworn, sworn statements with people supplying their names or driver's license or passports or whatever - and we had, I think it was - how many kilos of documents was it, because we actually weighed? It was... eight or so kilos? It was twenty two pounds, it was ten kilos.

It was twenty two pounds, this was a stack of documents. So we had it all separated, and we had cover sheets and markers so that they could find out where every document was, what it was, description of everything in the compartments.

So, she went in there with all of this documentation and made this remark to the police captain, saying that about this man...

Juliana: And that's when she said, these are strong accusations, you can't be making those accusations!

Laura: Well hell! He made accusations about us!

Juliana: He used false proof, and we had the...

Laura: He lied! To back his accusations up.

Juliana: And his ex-partner even wrote and showed that his accusations were lies. And they didn't even want...

Laura: They didn't even want to see it! They did not even want to see. So here's a guy who's making accusations - with lies - and we get investigated to the point where even our bank records are being pulled, and believe me, we don't have a lot of money in our bank account, so, I think they were rather disappointed.

And then, we say one thing about this guy, that he is possibly a pedophile - for sure a sexual pervert - we have proof out of his own mouth - is a sexual pervert, okay. And documentary evidence in this stack of papers - and this woman says, "those are strong accusations!"

Say what?

Juliana: And then doesn't even look at the proof.

Laura: And refused to even look at it. Right.

Gaby: Now what kind of investigation is that?

Laura: Yeah. So Chu's [ie. Juliana] in there being interrogated, four hours.

Juliana: And the weird thing was that all the while I was being interrogated, she kept having assumptions about who we were, what we did, all from him - whatever he said. Like: "You are doing research in what? And how come you have a physician? And how come you have..."

Laura: How can we have a physician on our research team? [Laugh] Because we do medical and health research! DUH!

Juliana: And a very funny thing is that she kept saying: "What are you beliefs? Tell me what your beliefs are." And I had a very hard time explaining...

Laura: Because we don't believe anything!

Juliana: ...that there are no beliefs. How to you explain to somebody where the whole world is based on false beliefs...

Laura: And we're just researching!

Juliana: ...that, everything we do is online, you can read it. You know, what are we hiding? Why do we have to believe in something? If there's anything we're believers in...

Laura: Research.

Juliana: ...the search for truth. Research. So, what else, do we continue with the chronology?

Laura: Well, yeah, you can tell. Yeah go ahead.

Jualiana: After that, in the meantime, this young woman was in a trial with her partner for the custody of their children. And we went to see the local police; they seemed very supportive. We met the chief of the police here and they were very very supportive. It's been a month now. We're still waiting.

Laura: Yeah because supposedly we can't file our own case against this man until they close out the investigation of us, so they're dragging their feet about this. So it strikes us that there are some people in high places possibly who could be behind this - why they don't understand when everything we think and do is clearly and plainly on the Internet.

Of course, one of the problems is that they don't speak English, a lot of them don't speak English, and this crazy man provided them with very very bad translations where he also not only had bad translations, but he extracted material completely out of context, and provided that as his evidence.

Now here the problem that I wanna highlight here is that - whenever anybody uses the word 'cult' - people's brains stop.

Gaby: That's true.

Laura: I mean they just...

Gaby: It's a problem that goes deep, deep, deep inside of everybody's subconscious like 'cult' is - that's a...

Arianna: Programmed.

Laura: And when did this start? When did people start being programmed to think that when you say the word cult, it's something horrible and dangerous, is this like a fundamentalist program? Because, you know...

Gaby: In the mean time the real cults are ok– they are religions.

Laura: So that's just a brief background of why we are going to be discussing the topic of cults today - as I said we'll be having the individual in question on a future show and she'll tell you and the dirty details - it's really quite fascinating, because she's spent eleven years with a pathological abuser who not only abused her psychologically, but threatened her, made life very uncomfortable and miserable for her, isolated her from her family, subjected her to poverty, sexual perversion, etc.

So, we'll get her on here and we'll talk about that, and pathological relationships, at some point in the not-too-distant future. But today we have something really interesting - we have two brothers who actually were in a cult. A real cult.

And I want you to welcome Jeff and Brett to our show. And Jeff and Brett live in a Scandinavian country that I'm not going to name, and I'm not going to give you their last name, because I don't want you searching on the Internet, I don't want any weird people harassing them. But we are going to tell you with as much detail as possible about their lives and about how things were for them in this cult and...

So, let's give a big warm welcome to Jeff and Brett.

[Jeff and Brett are welcomed.]

Jeff and Brett: Thanks.

Jeff: It's great to be here on your breakfast table, kitchen table conversation. [Laughter]

Brett: Very pleased to see you.

Laura: I guess one of the things we want to talk about here is what is this problem with the word 'cult'. 'Cult' used to mean just any group of people who had a particular form of worship or honored a particular god or had a particular system of honoring their god or their other chosen deity or... I'm not even sure if they always were focused on deities.

Gaby: Or a guru.

Laura: Yeah, a Guru, whatever. And for some reason now, it's a word that just stops all cerebral activity - it's just unbelievable to see the way it works, I mean this police captain in Toulouse was so convinced of the lies that this crazy man told her, that she believed him and verbally attacked Juliana for speaking the truth!

Now how bizarre is that? So, you were in a cult, I understand. But, it was one of the "okay" cults, because it was an offshoot of a more or less mainstream Christian religion, is that the case - and what was it called?

Jeff: It was an offshoot, how would you say it would be - very fundamental Lutheran, like the basic Lutheran, it often was called Laestadian Lutheran - that was the American terminology, or Lestadiolaset in the kind of language that - we're living in.

But this Laestadianism is an awakening movement that happened in Scandinavia back in late eighteen hundreds.

Laura: Right, and how did you get into this cult?

Brett: Well, from basically childhood. We were taught by our mother.

Laura: I see. And...

Gaby: Is it a popular religion in Scandinavia? Like...

Jeff: How would you say, it's still only a small minority, but if you look at the movement in northern Europe it's at least a hundred thousand, or more, of members, so fairly significant.

In North America there's somewhere between five and eight thousand. And it's growing all the time - the membership is growing from inside.

Laura: Well let's back up just a second. Jeff, what is it you do professionally?

Jeff: Well I'm a professional in marketing, and strategic development, and leadership and so forth, and I'm currently lecturing at a university, number of universities, and I also have my own, company where I do coaching and training, and consulting as well.

Laura: Well what about you Brett?

Brett: Well I'm currently employed by a large corporation, and I'm a software engineer.

Laura: So, you're a software engineer, and you're a marketing professional lecturing at universities, and basically you guys were in a real-life cult. Maybe we need to understand what a cult is and how we're describing a cult. What do we know about cults? What's a cult? What's the criteria for being a cult?

Juliana: A group that worships a deity?

Laura: Deity? Or a guru? Well I get accused of that all the time, that I'm trying to be a guru, but somehow it doesn't quite fit. [Laughter] Because, as I said...

Juliana: A huge commitment? You can't leave very easily? You have to pay lots of money usually.

Laura: Our bank account tells us that we are not doing too good as cult leaders. [Laughter]

Maybe as a marketing specialist you could kinda give me some coaching on being a better cult guru? [Laughter]

Jeff: Maybe I could do that, maybe I think you need to have a very strong kind of a hook or a - maybe a strong - you offer some strong reward. You offer some strong... If you believe this, or you do this, you get this, and if you don't - you're in deep trouble.

And if you can get a large group of people thinking that way at the foundation, then maybe things start rolling.

Brett: And so let me just add then, imagine me, six year old guy, being told by his beloved parents that - in this particular faith, if you believe, you get to go to heaven when you die, but if you don't believe, you will go to hell when you die. That's quite a very large reward and punishment system.

Laura: That's a pretty scary thing to tell a little kid.

Arianna: Or a six year old.

Brett: And, I do remember making that very logical and simple calculation at that age - oh I am not going to look at anything else but this system, that I am in..

Jeff: 'Cause our mother had mentioned that even though she didn't strongly, with a strong hand bring us up in that, but she introduced it to us, this Laestadianism, because she was introduced that. And then it was just passed on and then we...

Gaby: Was it passed on also on the school you both went in Scandinavia?

Jeff: Absolutely not, actually we grew up in North America and moved to Scandinavia later in our lives. However, we went to the confirmation camps and so forth. When you're fifteen and that's where there's two weeks of religious programming or instruction, seeding the words...

Laura: What are the main beliefs of this cult?

Jeff: The foundation is, what they talk about is Christ, and as believing sins forgiven.

Brett: That is the key.

Jeff: That is the key, and that is the key to everything because once you believe your sins forgiven, in Jesus' name and blood as they say, that's the only way, only believers can do this, God does not preach forgiveness directly. When you believe this then you have the Holy Spirit...

Laura: What do you mean, only believers can do this...

Jeff: Only believers - when I say believers, those are Laestadians - and only Laestadians can preach to each other and say that "all your sins are forgiven in Jesus' name and blood", and receive absolution of sins. And then when that happens you have the Holy Spirit.

Laura: So in other words a person can't just like pray to God, and...

Jeff: No.

Laura: And have a direct relationship with God, they have to do it by way of the medium of another person...

Jeff: Another person, because they use the office of the keys which is a part in the New Testament about the keys of - the Kingdom of Heaven are on Earth - to bind and to loose, so loosing is forgiveness of sins, and that's on Earth so it's between believers to do.

Laura: In other words whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven, so they believe that they, as believers, have this power...

Jeff: Yes.

Laura: ...to bind and loose, and only they have it.

Jeff: Only they do, only these hundred thousand - so if the world were to end today, you would have maybe a hundred thousand plus believers who are truly believing this, not just belonging because of cultural reasons, but truly believe this in their heart, plus all the children in the world, so how many children. Those are the only ones who would go to heaven.

Laura: Why the children?

Jeff: Children because they are, that's how the faith is - all children are believes.

Brett: They're innocent. They're without sin. They have no knowledge of sin.
Jeff: And they don't even need to be baptized, they just have to be children, innocent children - I don't know what the age cut-off is, but...

Laura: But at some point you stop being a child and all of a sudden you are sinful.

Jeff: Sinful, and then even if you have not been exposed to this, you are heading to the oven - to burn.

Laura: To the oven.

Brett: To the oven. [Laughter]

Jeff: Or the fire! They don't use that euphemism so much, they've changed it, they used to in the old days talk about hell, then they started talking about damnation, and now they talk about "you lose your hope for eternal life", you lose your hope of heaven, when you leave this.

Brett: They are not emphasizing the hellfire so much these days.

Laura: So what happens when somebody decides they don't want to belong to this group any more, I mean isn't that one of the criteria for a cult that it's easy to get in a hard to get out?

Brett: The - well, actually in theory, and if you listen to any of the sermons, believing is a free will matter, and they will tell you this over and over again in the sermons how it's a free will matter, but how free will is it in practice?

Because instantly, when you say, "I'm no longer a believer mom and dad", everybody is very sad, and tearful - and, as a matter of fact, we have a greeting we like to give to each other when we are brothers and sisters in faith, and so we will greet each other with God's peace.

Instantly, that greeting ends when you're no longer. And, even if there's absolutely no formal idea of shunning people who are not in the faith, there is still - it seems to happen almost automatically, where you feel like you are an outsider.

Even if it's not taught or encouraged to shun anyone.

Jeff: You're not formally excommunicated, like some other religions.

Brett: But, it's clear, the borders - and I was taught in my confirmation, they say, there must be a clear border between people who are believing, and people who are not.

Gaby: That sounds so exclusive.

Laura: Yeah...

Jeff: They quote the Bible portion - what does righteousness to do with unrighteousness, and be unequally yoked with, light and darkness.

Laura: So I'm assuming you all married Laestadian women?

Jeff: Yes. Not from my own country but...

Brett: From Scandinavian country.

Jeff: We married, say fairly fundamental believer Laestadian women who had faith of the heart so it was not so much a cultural thing that they just grew up in it, that's one piece, but they actually truly believe and accept this idea of having to follow this-

Laura: Okay, and I'm going to tell the viewers something rather shocking. How old are you Jeff?

Jeff: I'm just over forty.

Laura: And how many children do you have?

Jeff: I have ten children.

Laura: And can you tell us about why you have ten children?

Jeff: Well the ten children is interesting, you've got to remember when I say ten children they're all from the same mother and father, and the second thing is that when the tenth was born my oldest was thirteen.

So, it'd be a huge difference if my oldest was thirty, and then had ten children or something like that, and the space between, so I had - oh why do I have that is because this Laestadian religion, or - they call themselves the children of God, and the children of light, the only true believers - that's one thing about Laestadians, they are the only true ones.

And, so they don't get along with their other Christian counterparts, because they're so exclusive, however, why do I have ten children?

It's because they do not believe in birth control. And the reason is because a child, a baby is a gift from God, so therefore you would not want to stop those gifts. You would want to accept them as gifts from the Heavenly Father, as they would say. And not accepting them shows a distrust for this Heavenly Father, so even though I had - I was twenty seven years old, and - actually I wasn't, I was twenty six years old, I was one month shy of twenty seven years old, and my fourth child came, and my oldest was three.

So you had two babies per lap, basically.

Laura: It's pretty amazing to have ten children in this day and age, considering the stresses of our environment, and - well, we know the Catholic Church bans birth control, they have pretty much the same view about birth control, but most Catholics find a way around this, I mean - they use the rhythm method, and, you know - unless they are screamingly devout, I would say, a lot of Catholics have managed to skirt around - even with abstinence - so how did your wife feel about having ten children, I mean didn't you all figure out what caused it?

Jeff: That's come up before in conversations of course, and I mean it's - looking back at it now it's quite absurd, however there often is a bit of a point of contention one of the spouses - I know I as a father several times saw the struggling situation at home and I would suggest maybe we not, you know, whatever - whatever method. Thing was Laestadians, if you are abstaining or using rhythm method or pills or condom, whatever the methodology, if you are doing it because you're wanting to prevent the child, that is sin!

Laura: You're kidding!

Gaby: Sounds really sick!

Jeff: So, if you're stopping it... And this is the interesting thing, because the Holy Spirit is supposed to guide, you get within the Laestadians some saying that, "well, maybe abstinence is okay" - differences of opinion within there, but you're supposed to have the Holy Spirit and have the common understanding there, but going back to your question, I mean, you see a mother struggling with little children and you're trying to help, and you might say, "how about you do something about it?"

And oftentimes it becomes the one spouse who brings it up is admonished by the other spouse, I know that was happened with me or “Jeff, you're not trusting in the Lord enough”, even though she's struggling - 'cause she really wants to make it to heaven, you see? She doesn't want to burn in hell.

Gaby: She wants to be a good girl.

Jeff: She wants to be good, and she wants to be right - her whole reason for getting married is to be a help meet, as it says in Genesis about the help meet - the help meet on the road to heaven. So that you have - that spouse is there to help you, so that you stay in faith, so that you get to heaven. That's the number one reason for being married.

So you support in this system - and so, when one is kind of thinking, maybe we should go [i.e. and use birth control], the other one admonishes, and you should have that forgiven, and you have to ask humbly for forgiveness, that "yeah, I didn't trust in the Lord"...

Laura: How long were you married?

Jeff: I was married for about - well I still am but we've been separated for a year and a half, so...

Laura: We'll get to that.

Jeff: We'll get to that. We were together for about sixteen years.

Laura: And what about you Brett, how long were you married? You were also married to a Laestadian...?

Brett: That's true. And, would be soon coming to our fourteenth anniversary.

Laura: And you have how many children?

Brett: We have three.

Laura: What's wrong with you, didn't you want to get to heaven?

Brett: Well as it is, you know that everybody's mileage really will vary in these kinds of things. [Laughter]

Juliana: God was less generous with you.

Brett: Please remember it's not like turning on a tap. It isn't that easy. [Laugh] Fertility and all that kind of stuff, so even if you don't use any methods [Laughter]

I know some ladies who have sixteen children, I do - and I know some people who didn't have the first child - it took eight years before the first child came. So it really happens, and so it just was following the directions and accepting every child, we had three children, two miscarriages.

Laura: Aha.

Brett: In our fourteen year marriage.

Gaby: How did you manage?

Jeff: Adrenal fatigue, and lot of cortisone and lots of stress, and it done real crazy things to the noggin.

Juliana: That you very much God for so [inaudible] generosity.

Laura: So, I understand that both of you are currently no longer Laestadians, is that correct, that you have more or less left formally, or just unofficially?

Brett: There's no real formal method, you simply announce to your close ones that you are no longer believing, and that's the end of the story. You no longer pay your dues.

Laura: And what was the upshot of this announcement in your lives?

Brett: Well, definitely there was a lot of sadness, a lot of phone calls around, a lot of tears being shed by the close ones that - no longer does, father or brother or whoever - wants to believe.

Arianna: A lot of guilt.

Brett: And it's a very sad, because I've been in that situation myself, when a good friend of mine, or, say sisters, left their faith, I remember that same feeling myself when I was a true believer, because it is a very sad, because that person in my mind, as I recall, had lost their gift.

Laura: They were not gonna go to heaven.

Brett: If they died in that state.

Laura: I mean they are going to go through all of this misery and suffering here, but they're certainly gonna get to heaven. What if there is no heaven?

Brett: That's a very good question.

Gaby: At what point you started questioning your religion/cult? Were there questions remaining in childhood, or...?

Brett: I suppose, I like to go back to this six-year-old mind, and certainly, I recall questions - how could this be only the true faith? But you push it aside, push it aside, because aunts and uncles are all reaffirming this, and all the people that you trust.

But many years later, such a strong conviction can take you past your fortieth birthday, and it did for me, but there were little signs in the world - when I noticed how so many people are being controlled through fear, it happens by governments, it happens in our economic system, it happens even in your relationship - where someone might try to control you through fear - of nagging, or anger for example.

I started to really question - but could really the creator of the universe need worshiping so badly that I have to be afraid? Something wasn't working.

And that was the flash for me - to start to go into a compartment of mind that I didn't dare touch for nearly forty years: “Is this really so”?

And allow myself to look at other things and read other things.

Laura: What about you Jeff?

Jeff: Similar idea. We are accused of following each other, but we had two totally separate - even though we are close brothers - separate people in looking at it totally separately. But the similar thing is we shared information when we noticed that something is not right around this - some of the lies that we were seeing about 9/11 and the Iraq War, and Afghanistan, and all these things are - there seems to be so much obfuscation, and lies and what now - a couple thousand years ago, just think if the same stuff was happening then, maybe there's stuff with the bible.

'Cause that's the key, the Bible as it states - this in the King James Bible - was the truth, and only the believers, the Laestadians, had the Holy Spirit which was the key to the Bible. So it was all - you start to think, well maybe that document isn't as true as they are saying. 'Cause look, all of the smoke and the mirrors and the lies that are happening right in front of our eyes!

Gaby: Yeah... nothing new under the sun.

Jeff: Right, we'd be seeing people are lying about something people are believing that actually the 9/11 towers actually went down with an airplane. So, [what if] these lies would've been told some thousand years ago, you know the Bible. And so, that's how my story went the same way, we saw this and start try to be objective [about] things around my life, then I start to apply it to this faith.

And realizing that it's based, really, on fear. And reward. Reward. It's all because you wanna get something out of this, and that's your heavenly home.

Brett: I might like to add to that because of how truth and lies is really important to me. All my life, I loved truth so much, and I thought that this was the truth, therefore I basically prayed since my childhood, "please Heavenly Father, keep me in this faith".

And, it's so funny when my very good buddy who happens to be of another kind of faith in another sect - he was doing much the same thing, praying every day to be kept in his faith.

And studying the world and really feeling how there were so many lies, and how much I hated lies, and then the other opposite is how much I loved te truth - I started to pray differently: Instead of, "God, keep me in this faith", I started to pray unconsciously, "God, please, the truth".

--- End quote ---

Psalehesost:
Continued:


--- Quote ---Laura: And that brings us to this book that Jeff has been holding over there. This is written by psychologist Bob Altemeyer and Bruce Hunsberger. It's called Amazing Conversions, why some turn to faith and others abandon religion.

It's a scientific study that was done on people who were: A - brought up in strong religious background who then left their religion, or; B - individuals who were brought up with no religious background, and then became converted or saved, or joined a fundamentalist type religion after they were grown.

And what kind of personalities these individuals is - there's a whole lot of surveys that were done to discover what kind of personalities these individuals had, what motivated them, what experiences they had as children, and Brett and Jeff have been reading this book, and doing a lot of soul-searching as they read it, because they see themselves there.

One of the points that Altemeyer makes is that for people who are brought up in a very strong religious background, and in whom the value of truth is very strongly impressed upon them as they grow up - you know that "we have the one true religion", so that's a principle - and that means that there is the truth, and that's taught as a value, and they internalize that, and usually they are pretty bright individuals, and at some point this value of truth gets turned on their faith itself, and they - because of their intelligence, and their desire for truth - they begin to examine their religion itself.

And that's what happens to the people who leave religions. People who get converted who were brought up in non-religious backgrounds, as Altemeyer has shown repeatedly with his surveys, are generally people who are psychologically damaged, and people who would always be seeking an authoritative figure to follow. He calls these individuals the Authoritarian Personality, that is, they follow an authority, not that they are themselves authoritarian, although they incorporate authoritarianism into their personality style.

A man who is an authoritarian follower of a, say, a guru or a god or a belief system, would be very authoritarian with his children, with his wife, it would be kind of a pecking order type thing.

So, you have something in here that I think you wanted to read, is that it?

Jeff: Yeah, you covered it, but page 120 of Altemeyer's book describes this. We, Brett and I had this idea where integrity is important, truth was important, and this is something that we did internalize.

The teaching succeeded it would produce someone who deeply valued the truth, which was us, and had deep-down integrity. The religion would therefore create the basis for its own downfall, if it came up short in any of these departments.

And that's when it started to come up short, well, could this be true, you know? Even that's considered to be a sinful doubt, and that's what happened in paradise with Adam and Eve as they started to doubt, did God really say this? And so...

Gaby: They ate the apple.

Jeff: So when you start questioning that's the first - that's your way out of the kingdom, when you start questioning too much and doubting. Dangerous, and it was considered dangerous - and some years ago there was a time when they were afraid to put their children into higher education, because - that's not true anymore, they've realized - because, if they start questioning too much they might lose their faith. In some areas, but that's mainly gone, they pursue all types of careers the Laestadians.

Gaby: Critical thinking not encouraged.

Jeff: Not encouraged - to a point. It’s an interesting thing, you can only go so far. You can only apply it maybe with your job, or problem solving there something, you know, secular, something to do with the day to day - but not your own faith, not the...

Brett: As I said I had to keep a compartment untouched in my brain about it - and that's where it had to be what we called 'childlike faith'.

Jeff: And those who were converted, Altemeyer says, for those who become believers – because there are a few of those, and the Laestadians really hold on to those, because you have some conversions of people from Togo or from - ah, they have it on their website - in different parts of the world. And that's something they really hold on to, that oh, this is spreading, that other people are actually believing this.

Oh oftentimes it's people who are under severe stress or distress, and they're looking for something, as Altemeyer says, something that - conversion solves their problems. They've serious shortfalls, emotional difficulties, and then the conversion then helps them with that.

And also [it] goes [on] to say that the people who are afraid, the believers --[those ones] who become believers, they are afraid and they want to go to - as it says on 200 on of this book - I want security, and I have nothing to worry about, I want to go to heaven when I die, I'm going to heaven, there's a heaven - and that's repeated by these people, that they can get that, it's something to hold on to.

Gaby: They want a savior – “save me please”.

Jeff: Yes, exactly. Brett and I used to tell people, when they'd say, you're losing, you've lost your faith - and we would tell them then, no, we've gained faith now. We have actually lost our belief. And we tried to use the analogy of the belief being like holding on to a rock in a river, and we had hold on to that rock, and that was Jesus, and Laestadianism, and forgiveness of sins, and don't question.

Whatever the big families and all the things that came out there, and the stuff - girls can't wear makeup, and no rock music, and stuff like that.

You held on to that. But then I told them that I'd started to grow faith because I'd let go of that rock and started to swim in the river and that was the faith.

Brett: We have faith that we can actually learn to swim.

Jeff: Faith that we can learn to swim. And the Universe will sure help us, when we ask, and question...

Arianna: You're letting go of your fear.

Jeff: Letting go of the fear.

Gaby: Have faith in yourselves.

Jeff: Yes.

Juliana: That's actually crazy, because you're talking here about an official religion, but if we didn't know the name, I would think you were talking about any cult. The standard cult in the street.

Laura: Yeah, the kind of cults that they - you know, that people are afraid of.

Juliana: Fear. People tell you that you are different, weird, they're sad that you're leaving, I mean - all this belief system...

Brett: Blind belief.

Juliana: ...instead of encouraging you to become somebody to make your own decisions...

Jeff: You can, in a carnal sense, you can go be a doctor or a lawyer or a car salesman, or whatever - do that, fine, that's your own thing, but - it's the faith thing, it's the most important to keep it close to your heart.

Juliana: So play on people's fear, all the time, even the church, or you know... it’s a form of control!

Jeff: It is a form of control, I think of some of my friends I've seen there, and nice people, I mean patriotic in a sense, honest, always pay their taxes, they're great citizens - it's hardly, I can't really say against them, it's great in that sense for the society to have people [like] that - however, one of my friends, he comes from - I think there's fourteen or fifteen in the family and he's probably the tenth - and all of his brothers and sisters are in this Laestadianism.

And then his wife, same thing, there's probably fourteen there, and all of them are in the faith - so even if he has questions, how could he leave that anymore, 'cause he's the black sheep then. When all of his brothers and sisters are in there he can't leave, and that's what I've been told is that, "oh where would I go if I left this, everybody I know is in this, and..."

Laura: Well that's something Altemeyer talks about also in his book, which is that people who leave their faith - they pay a very very high price. Because they are ostracized, they are shunned, they are looked down on, basically, by their former believing friends, partners, family and so forth.

And in many cases, they do this - I mean, for them truth is such a value and worth so much, that they are willing to pay that price of losing the fellowship even of their families.

So, how did that play out for y'all, did you...

Brett: You can definitely say, as I said before, there is no official shunning. But in practice you lose your social network. You do.

Laura: What happens?

Brett: Well, you just simply do not have - for a lot of people who have described it, they don't get the same calls anymore from people. You're not invited to things, you're forgotten and left out, and you almost have to go to an extra effort to be included in a lot of functions.

Laura: Do they make any particular efforts to retrieve you?

Brett: Oh, well, my experience was more before I left the faith, and they realized that I was a little bit backing off, there was some of that kind of pressure put on mostly by very close ones, for example my wife, to comment and start talking and a little bit putting some pressure on about it - but once I left my faith, I personally did not have, for example brothers coming over, or anything like that, that was not my experience, you know, asking me to repent....

Laura: What about you, Jeff?

Jeff: Not so much, and I had one guy call me when I sent a text message - a quite long one - on my long list [of contacts] and letting people know. I had one speaker-brother, as they say, 'cause in Laestadians the women can't speak, or be priests, even in the church. Yeah, they can't, they can't be that, that's a, they...

Laura: They're just supposed to be making those babies, huh?

Jeff: Well, that, plus if they can't do that, something else in the church, whatever.

Brett: Teaching Sunday school.

Jeff: Teaching Sunday school. [Laughter]

Brett: I used to be a Sunday school teacher, by the way, I’ll add.

Jeff: But I'll just say that the - called me and said, just to remind me, 'cause I actually specifically asked, that there's no really use to call me - to call and, to try to convert [me], or - because they do call, and they sincerely believe this from the heart, so they do it out of what they consider deep love, they feel that they're calling in love and it's not even easy for them to call - it's difficult for them, they tell me I have to struggle with my flesh and make this call, I guess it's my duty as a believer and they call, it's hard, and they - they want to try to call you back.


And this guy called me to ask “what happened Jeff”. So I told him a little bit about what happened, but at the end he had to say to me “Remember Jeff, this faith is THE faith.”  He said it with a capital T. They say this sort of thing humbly, and it is not a proud thing. He said, “Jeff, you can always come back, faith is childlike.” This reminded me how this faith infantilizes everything. [Paraphrased –Editor]


Laura: So what are some of the beliefs, other than believing that you've got, the hot-line to God, or the fast track to heaven? I mean, what's their position on other things, I mean I've got this printout from Wikipedia about this group and it says here, that Laestadians believe that rhythmic music, alcohol, makeup, TV, birth control, and premarital sex is wrong.

So are earrings, movies, school sports, dancing, tattoos - I don't care anything about tattoos, you're not gonna have tattoos and eat at my table - bowling alleys - BOWLING ALLEYS?! [Laughter] And more!

But they can smoke and chew, well they're all right in my book [Laughter] - as well as congregate in public areas and perform... questionable antics?

Brett: I don't know what that means.
Jeff:.. that's Wikipedia...

Laura: The central activities of Laestadians are haps, song services, giant bonfires, youth discussions, caretaking meetings, revival meetings, etc.

[Editor’s note: haps is a shortened form of the word “happenings”, where youth meet together usually in someone’s home, for an evening get together. There may be snacks, singing, and chit chat.It gives a place for youth to meet together in a “safe” environment away from the influences of the sinful world.]

And... Some fraction within Laestadianism has believed that the movement is a contemporary descendant of an unbroken line of living Christianity via the Moravian Church, Luther, the Bohemian Brethren, the Lollards, the Mallards, the Widgins. The Wood Ducks. And the Waldensians, all the way back to the primitive church.

Jeff: There's different  we've gotta know within Laestadianism there's...

Laura: There's nineteen different... Yeah...

Jeff: This is the biggest one though, this is the biggest one...

Laura: The faith that is so pure and true has already split into nineteen different branches.

Jeff: Right.

Laura: Wow!

Jeff: Well the Bible says there's heresies, so...

Brett: You've gotta clean house.

Jeff: You've gotta clean house, do what you happen, and it's predicted in the Bible that you must have heresies, kind of cleanse the church, so that there's - if there's leniency - the latest heresy was in the early 70s in North America...

Laura: What about the financial side? Is there a heavy financial obligation?

Jeff: Well, it's not huge, I think it's always encouraged that you pay according to your means, so there are those members who are more financially well-off, and they give more, and then there are those who don't have as much and they give less.

And it isn't a very ludicrous, [lucrative was meant here- editor] or very rich organization. However, in Scandinavia they do own properties, and they have a fairly reasonable balance sheet, but it's fairly conservative.

But they gain their money through their services, every year they have their summer services where seventy plus thousand believers gather in a place, and they set up a small city, and that usually generates quite a bit of income from that one...

Laura: And what do they...? And what do they generate the income with?

Jeff: Well, they sell, they sell goods and they sell books, they sell...

Brett: Books, tapes.

Jeff: ...they sell food on site, a lot of food you can buy, there's a restaurant on site, lots of ice cream...

Brett: Oh, for sure.

Jeff: ...goodies, 'cause there's kids, there's kids all over the place.

Laura: So they get all these kids going around on a sugar high. Poisoning them with dairy and sugar.

Jeff: Yeah, but hey're going to heaven.

Laura: Oh, yeah. [Laughter] Probably faster than they planned.

Juliana: But earlier on you were talking about a woman who couldn't really afford to pay anything...

Jeff: Yeah, that was a personal experience, this woman was actually quite struggling, being a - she had several children, not a huge family, but - her spouse left her and she was [like] a widow living on her own, [a] single mom, and the board members of the local Laestadian congregation came to visit her, paid her a visit - and talked to her - but this pressure, in a way that okay, you haven’t paid your dues, and so forth, that was quite hard in that she was struggling, and - instead of giving a quick call, you know, you're overdue with your dues, it can be kind of a bit of production - so there is, it's a subtle pressure when we mention the words "to be in the faith", there's never in Laestadianism, it's never heavy-handed, fire and brimstone, it's always comes with humble, you know - with love and caring, and they they truly, I know, I was in the same position myself, I used to serve as, in camps and so forth, and see someone straying away, and...

Laura: You're basically describing just about any other Christian religion, they've got the one true religion, they've got Jesus, he saves, which is their object of cultic value, they've got financial obligations, and if you leave, you are maybe not consciously shunned, but in some cases, some religions it really is conscious and deliberate, but you are effectively shunned and people are sad, they are crying, they mourn, whatever - I mean, I know some religions where [when] somebody leaves the religion, they have a wake, like a mock-funeral or something, because that person is dead to them.

So basically, you are members of a cult, or you were members of a cult, that believe that music, alcohol, makeup, TV, birth control, premarital sex, earrings, movies, school sports, dancing, tattoos, bowling alleys and more...

Brett: Well maybe not bowling alleys.

Laura: Maybe not bowling alleys. Are you allowed to smoke and chew?

Brett: Certainly.

Jeff: Yeah.

Laura: You're allowed to smoke and chew. And what about the earrings, I mean the "no earrings" would not fly in my house, I have four daughers.

Jeff: There might be a cultural thing, it's kind of weird, not necessarily doctrinal, but - it's interesting, because the women can wear bracelets and necklaces, but not earrings.

Brett: And I don't think we really know why, we are all kind of wondering, but it seems very culturally strong, and it's just not done.

Laura: What about dancing?

Brett: No dancing.

Jeff: Yeah, something that I missed out - but they often say that you have to deny yourself some of these things of wordly pleasures, and that's one of them.

Brett: It's kind of fleshly.

Jeff: Fleshly yeah.

Laura: Yeah, but you're not supposed to deny yourselves all that sex that produces those babies as long as you're married, because if you have the urge to have sex, that means that God is urging you to have sex so you can produce more babies, receive more "gifts", but for God's sakes don't dance.

Jeff: Don't dance, it's kind of an interesting...

Laura: I mean, that's really kind of twisted if you ask me.

So I understand both of you are separated from your wives or in the process of getting divorces, is this because you've left the faith? Or is it other issues?

Brett: It would be other issues, but I wanna point out that when although divorce and that sort of thing is something that does happen very much in the world, two people can't always live together for one reason or another, which we won't get into right now...

Laura: Maybe we will get into it.

Brett: Maybe we will at some point. [Laughter] But think about, this is such against the Lord's will in the doctrine of Laestadianism, it is really - this has become an extremely terrible point for my wife that I would, I'm seeking a divorce.

And so the pressure that's being put on the children right now is IMMENSE. How they're being told that, "the reason your father wants a divorce is because he is an unbeliever", which is totally wrong.

Juliana: That's outrageous.

Brett: It’s because I have a difficult relationship!

Jeff: Because he's a divorcer, she's graded him on the level of a raper or murderer.

Brett: She said such strong things, that's part of her personality...

Juliana: Are you saying she's putting the kids against you just because you're not a believer anymore?

Brett: You could say it that way.

Laura: Or she's putting the kids against you because you want a divorce.

Brett: That's what's actually happening but she's using the excuse that I'm an unbeliever, and divorce is wrong.

Juliana: They are supposed to believe that...

Gaby: If she's a divorce she will go to hell?

Brett: Well God does not...

Jeff: Unless she repent of  it, there are people who've divorced and then asked for repentance and forgiveness, and they've got it...

Laura: If you repent a divorce do you have to remarry the same woman?

Jeff: No, because he made the...

Laura: Oh, you can repent a divorcing and marry somebody else.

Jeff: I know cases, I know personal cases where that's happened, where they've done the deal and...

Laura: So you can divorce and repent any number of times and have serial wives?

Jeff: Probably, if they accept you back in, if the congregation accepts you back in.

Laura: And of course if you go to somebody and you repent, they're obliged to tell you you're forgiven, right?

Jeff: You're forgiven, because it says - remember, 'cause they asked, Peter had asked Jesus at one time, "how many times do I forgive my brother? Seven times?" And he said, "not seven times, but seventy times seven." So you can ask for forgiveness that many times per day or more.

It's to show that the sea of forgiveness of sins of the Gospel is bottomless and you can have all your sins forgiven no matter...

Juliana: So let's get this clear - a man beats his wife in a marriage; then he goes to her and says, "please forgive me, am I forgiven, I must be forgiven", she has to forgive him.

Jeff and Brett: Yes.

Jeff: However...

Juliana: However many times that happened...

Jeff: However, this is not so radical, if there's some kind of psychological problems, or beating problems, there can be separations, that's not divorce, so would happen in that case, the battered wife would move out to that separate address, but she can't get married again, cause she said until death she'd be married to this...

But she wouldn't have to have - of course, the Laestadians wouldn't say violence cases or psychological abuse, in that radical...

Laura: Yeah, well, let's not even think about it in those terms, let's think about a person who is a true believer, and this woman believes that she must forgive her husband, no matter how many times he beats her...

Jeff: Right.

Laura: ...and she's not looking for a separation, she's not looking to - what if he is pathological? I mean like Sandra Brown says, you can pray all you want to Jesus, God, Allah, Jehovah, whoever - but people who are pathological are not going to change.

Jeff: Unfortunately I know of Laestadian cases of that where there's pathology in some ways, lot of controlling, actually where some of the children have committed suicide - because of the psychological abuse they've gone through.

And this spouse is having to go through this but it's just been kind of taken and taken on...

But these are more of a, more of an extreme.

--- End quote ---

Psalehesost:
Continued (final post):


--- Quote ---Laura: But you told me a story earlier about these people, or this preacher who was saying that, better their children were dead than...

Jeff: That was an interesting case a few years ago thinking that this is - it was the final nail in the coffin for me, I wasn't truly a believing as my ideas of homosexuality, and these, I wasn't agreeing with the Laestadians in my heart with many things, but then this one speaker had said this.

'Cause I was thinking in my mind, this is based on fear, this business, this whole religion - and when he said that - it was an older, known speaker, beloved preacher-brother, was speaking and he said that, giving an example: "Oh, it is so sad when the believers leave," talking about the Laestadians leave, "when they leave the kingdom of God, many parents have said to me, when their own children have given up their faith, they would have wished that that children would never have been born." Because the sadness of their children leaving their faith wass so great. The sadness. Which is fear, which is - manipulation.

And that's what dawned on me, this "love my brother and don't," the grandmother are saying, "don't leave your faith, going on, love Jesus, Jesus loves you", that is pure and unbridled manipulation, and it is so subtle and so powerful.

Much more powerful than: "You're gonna go to hell!"

Brett: Than fire and brimstone.

Jeff: Fire and brimstone might turn them off, it's so, no tear jerking, and I've seen it in action, you know...

Brett: Tugs you right in your heart.

Jeff: Tugs you right in your heart, and it kinda wanna make you grandma happy, OK, I'll...

Laura: That's like covert aggression.

Brett: It's the strongest kind.

Jeff: And that's how it's used but it's considered love, and it's considered "Holy Spirit speaking", and this is...

Juliana: How about loving somebody and giving them free will?

Jeff: Yeah, but [inaudible] them learn their lessons, yes. But they say, "oh, it's your free choice", Brett mentioned this at the beginning.

"It's your choice to do this, it is your choice to believe, and I choose to believe."

Brett: "It's a free will matter", I remember some speaker-brothers saying. So sure.

Jeff: That's what I mean, this - Altemeyer, trying to be - it doesn't jibe with our brain. We want to look for integrity and truth in this, and it doesn't jibe, the circular argument, you know the Bible says it's like this and you see these kinds of contradictions.

But, you tell a believer that you see contradictions, he says "get your sins forgiven". Because you're seeing contradictions that's satan,  [or] “the enemy of soul”, ss used, not satan..

Laura: Okay, Jeff, Jeff, there's something that I think people are going to be wondering about, because it's something that comes to mind, it's: Here you are, you're forty years old, and you married this woman, and you got ten kids with her, and now you're separated, or whatever,

Jeff: One hundred kilometers apart.

Laura: … and people are gonna say, that you just basically ran out on her, abdicated your responsibility - what about these ten kids that you brought into the world? What's the deal here? I mean, why did you - was the marriage so bad that you had to leave, I mean...

Jeff: Well, I was having these doubts about the kids coming every time when I only had a couple kids, but I dived further in the faith, because I didn't want to see the break-up, I didn't want to see the lost social network of the believers, and that was my own, in - living in a foreign country in Scandinavia, where it's dark, that was my only kind of friends, I didn't want to break up from this, so but this continued - the marriage wasn't getting any closer, any better, from in the first five years, it was getting worse, downhill ever since.

And I just kept going, "okay, I'll just believe, and believe, and God will show the way - these are doubts", and these are - "ask for forgiveness", these constant ideas that I don't want to live under the same roof as this person, and I shouldn't be having children every year, or every second year or whatever...

Laura: Well, you didn't want to live under the same roof with this person, but obviously you were sleeping with her.

Jeff: Yeah, this is the thing - this is the...

Brett: Maybe I should interject here, because one of the things to understand - that being in such a religion, you're not allowed to marry outside of your religion - so, who who knows who Jeff and I may have married had we been free to marry someone outside.

So, I'd like to suggest that's one of the reasons why we married very unsuitable...

Jeff: Yeah.

Brett: ...people for ourselves. And that's another reason why our marriages weren't working very well.

So you can have easily a situation where you have nothing much in common with your spouse, except maybe sex for example. That's gonna happen.

Jeff: We're going to Laura mentioned that the - escapism. So what you're having, even though I can say with a straight face even though I have ten kids, it's not a function of quantity - it's almost sometimes we'd feel like these things were born of the Virgin Mary type of thing, you know, where do these come from, something - rolling over in the middle of the night, and what happened there, and then you realize, it's...

Laura: So you weren't making love, you were having sex.

Jeff: Yeah, and it was just dopamine hit, and it was escapism, it was something to deal with the extreme stress of 24/7 constant conflict in the house, constant mess, that kind of thing, which is - I didn't grow up in a big family, it's tough to handle.

Laura: Well tell us, this is... Inquiring minds want to know - how did you end up - Brett has just said you had to marry inside the faith, so how did you end up marrying somebody who was so incredibly unsuitable that you were able to leave, I mean you are obviously a sensitive guy, a thoughtful guy, so I don't think that you walked out on ten kids so lightly.

Jeff: I see them very regularly, and two of them live with me.

Laura: So you're being responsible about it, okay, so - that answers that question, but the thing is that you got married to this woman who you clearly could not get along with because you couldn't even force yourself to get along with her for the sake of ten children.

How did you end up marrying somebody like that, didn't you have a clue?

Jeff: Yeah, I didn't have a clue, I was very young, early twenties, she was late teens, and when you had desires - and in this religion, if you have desires, it is often considered that this is coming from God, and God is leading you in - if you want to have any type of sexual activity...

Laura: So God is the author of lust?

Jeff: Basically, yeah - well, that's interesting, interesting...

Brett: We wouldn't say that, but let's just say it is, okay. In practice.

Jeff: ...because when you mentioned that, 'cause you pulled the argument through, so you have these feelings and so forth, and so then you just - Apostle Paul said, "it's better to marry than burn", so if you're lusting after someone you want, instead of having premarital sex it's best to be married.

Not, there is a lot of Laestadians that are getting married - a lot of them are of the younger ones, don't take it so seriously, they use birth control and have some sex, and then repent of it later - even though I've been told by the older preacher-brothers that those who think that way, in the next heresy they'll be washed away in the next heresy, the next split of the church.

Brett: Because they're not really believing...

Jeff: 'Cause they're not truly believing from the heart. So they know that so, but we truly believed it, so I thought, well I'm gonna go on and believe and have lots of shame and guilt, with this desire...

Laura: Shame and guilt? Tell me about your shame and guilt.

Jeff: Well, desire! I desired over this woman, this younger woman, and I was wanting to have sex with her, and then - you felt that that was that sinful to want to do that before marriage and so forth, and every once in a while maybe have a kissy-huggy, and that's something that you, that's wrong, you have to ask for forgiveness. And, because you're not married...

Gaby: For a kiss or a hug?

Laura: Did you have sex before marriage?

Jeff: Yeah, I did, and that was the worst thing, that was really carrying on my conscience - and even though I had it forgiven, and...

Laura: Who forgave you?

Jeff: She did and also other believers.

Laura: You told other believers that you had sex before marriage?

Jeff: Yes, I did, I confessed of that sin, actually, it's to take more power you know. It is a privilege..

Laura: And did you confess, did you confess that sin before or after you were married?

Jeff: Before...

Laura: And then what did they advise you to do, get married?

Jeff: Well, not at that time - it was two years when I kind of lived with this, I was living as a believer and abstinent all way, and single man, and then when I saw her again, she was accepting me, and wanted me to come - we hit it off. Again we had to get married right away, because we saw this person, the only person you really had sex with, and you - the only person you were really close to - and then you see her again, and then you come really close. And you...

Brett: Well, I'll just add that definitely he had encouragement from uncles and such when he asked, "what should I do, I'm really feeling these feelings again?" Well, yeah, it's not wrong to get married, it's a good idea.

Jeff: Good idea...

Brett: So definitely there was encouragement that way - I would say his mom said, "you're way too young!"

Jeff: I knew I was too, my mind said, "no way!" I knew right away I didn't want to get married young, I didn't want to get married to a foreigner, and I didn't want to get to marry the person who hadn't done some of her life experience - I didn't want to marry a young person who was just looking at me for attachment or whatever as a...

Laura: So you got married, and when did the first baby come?

Jeff: It was probably one year and six days.

Laura: One year, and six days.

Jeff: And then, a year after that was the second one, a year after that the third one, a year after that the fourth one, a year after that the fifth one.

Laura: Was your wife breastfeeding?

Jeff: Yeah, but nothing - it didn't help.

Laura: But it didn't help. [Laughter]

Jeff: That didn't change a thing.

Laura: So, for all of you viewers who wonder about breastfeeding as a birth control method, forget about it. [Laughter]

Jeff: So I mean - this is how - but you only have the shame and guilt, so asked, "why get married?" So then you feel that this is God's will, and you are totally taught that marriage is instituted by God...

Brett: Oh yes.

Jeff: And what he puts together in heaven, let no one put asunder, or however it goes...

Laura: How can anybody say that this was put together in heaven? Oh, because it was bound on Earth, and whatever is bound on Earth is bound in heaven? That's a real clever out they've got going there.

Brett: Maybe, maybe, I've never heard it that way, but it was very very strong and that kept me in a very dysfunctional marriage WAY longer than it should have, my children saw too much fighting than they should have, all because I believed that the God did not - you know, what he put us together.

[Brett believed that God put his spouse and him together so it felt like it would be going against God’s will to solve the problem by leaving and so it kept him trying long after he even realized it could not be solved -Ed]

Arianna: It's almost as if the whole purpose of this religion is to make breeders.

Brett: Yeah, make lots and lots...

Jeff: Well, if you think about it, you see some of the - if everybody has ten kids, someone pointed out to me, because I tried - I, as soon as you start talking about this Laestadianism, in a little bit negative light, then you're considered you're bitter, and you're angry at them, and you're bitter, and that shows that you are an unbeliever, and shows that you're bitter and have got sin on your conscience, because you're speaking bitterly and negatively about this.

But that is one thing is that, someone pointed out to me - well, that does quite assure that the Laestadian organization does keep going on, and that's true.

Gaby: Yeah, increase their numbers, and...

Brett: It's one of the only sects that really do grow, these religious awakening movements.


Arianna: Get married if you want to have sex, then have all the babies, …

Jeff: If you have true, of the heart [faith], and there are those who stretch that a bit and think well, that’s all right to use different ways [of birth control], but the true believers know that you gotta trust [that God gives the children]

Laura: So, Brett, let's touch on this thing you just said about this horrible marriage, and violence going on, abuse - are you suggesting that you are a wife beater?

Brett: No, I'm suggesting maybe a little bit the other way, you know people are used to...

Laura: You mean you were married to a wife- a husband beater?

Brett: Right, maybe that would be a little more accurate.

Laura: So you were married to a violent person?

Brett: Not in a physical sense.

Laura: A true believer?

Jeff: Well sometimes physical.

Laura: A true believer who was violent?

Brett: That's right...

Jeff: But they're sin corrupt, true believers remember they're sin corrupt...

Brett: They don't pretend to be perfect people. Now I want you to remember...

Laura: They don't have to be perfect.

Brett: No, absolutely.

Laura: 'Cause they can be forgiven and do it again.

Brett: That is a very good point, because this is what unfortunately a lot of believers end up doing, instead of getting the proper help, they rely too much on this forgiveness, you see.

Jeff: Even though it's also encouraged there that, the more - they say, "hey, if you've got a psychological problem, go get it help, look after your mental health", and that's encouraged, especially since some of the issues have come up in the last ten or fifteen years.

Laura: Well what if that psychological help suggest to you that you need to get out of the marriage?

Brett: Right, well, that's what then believers will have to look at their conscience and decide what they can do with it.

Gaby: You mentioned issues of the last fifteen years, which issues?

Jeff: Which issues, there are some issues, there are some - in the 90s, there were some articles in their publications called "The Voice of Zion" - ah, is one of the publications and also the Scandinavian version of that, but - there were some mental issues in people thinking that psychological issues and depression was coming out, in the mainstream in the 90s, and that that is something that forgiveness should cover it, but they were saying that, no, we need to deal with depression as depression.

Brett: And they had to talk about that because there were so many people that wondered this misapprehension that they couldn't go see a professional - that they should take care of themselves with forgiveness, and that really tripped people up for a long time, and we were just mentioning it's improving in a lot of circles, but there's some people who hang onto that unfortunately.

Jeff: But he had to take a lot of verbal abuse and he, and so forth, as his brother I noticed it a lot, at least I had more passivity at home, but he went through rough [times], and I remember telling him five years ago that - we were more in this belief system - well, there are believers who are in a tough bind and they live, they might not be divorced, but they live in separate addresses.

I was strongly encouraging just "get out of that", and live in two different - under two different roofs.

Brett: Thanks for that, Jeff

Laura: Do you think that this religion contributed to your wife being an abuser?

Brett: I don't really know, but you see there's always those possibilities, because at least when I'm leaving the faith and that kind of stuff, because she has such a need to control, it could have awakened even more anger and fear in her, it's very possible. At least in the later years.

Laura: Well, this whole thing sounds like you guys have been through the mill, it's been a pretty depressing ride for both of you...

Jeff: Sports, no sports...

Laura: No sports.

Juliana: No dancing.

Laura: No dancing...

Jeff: I remember my uncle sent me a tear-jerker letter when I was on the basketball team, I was gonna make the school basketball team, to play against other schools, and get to practice in the coaching, and this tear-jerker mail came: "Oh, dear brother, there are many believing athletic believers in the world that would quickly be taken on the team, but they don't join the team, because they wouldn't want to lose their faith, and the faith is most precious to them." So I got left out of a lot of these things, you know.

Gaby: That is so sick.

Jeff: I wanted to play a bit or sing a bit of rock, or a lighter rock band, but I couldn't do that, I could only sing songs and hymns of Zion!

Arianna: Did they explain at all why these things are bad?

Jeff: Oh, explained them - because they would lose their faith, 'cause you get competitive, and it's been seen that people would get into the team, they got the teams there, they start doing things that are not conducive to believer, helping the faith...

Brett: Get more worldly.

Jeff: Get more worldly.

Brett: You start to like fame.

Jeff: Go to the hotel room, and the guys get together.

Brett: You might start drinking with them, alcohol is right out.

Jeff: You might look at TV.

Jeff: You might start looking at girls too early, and do some premarital stuff, you might do some kissing and hugging.

Arianna: Slippery slope.

Brett: It's a slippery slope, so best not to even go there.

Jeff: Danger zone, remember? Fear, danger, you might lose your faith, your childlike faith, boy have I heard those conversations.

Gaby: Now that is a real cult. [Laughter]

Brett: And just think, we never thought any way or shape or form we were in a cult - we were just in a somewhat conservative religion - that's what I would have told you, years ago...

Juliana: And now?

Brett: Now it's starting to look a little bit like a cult, I'm afraid. [Laughter]

Jeff: He still, … has room for doubt there!

Laura: And we get accused of being a cult, and we have no belief systems, we just research reality. And establish what we consider to be probabilities at any given moment - and as our knowledge increases as we make more discoveries, that changes continuously, it's not fixed.

Gaby: We encourage critical thinking.

Laura: Yeah!

Gaby: Anything else?

Juliana: And in fact if you're looking for a guru, or if you want to have illusions about going to heaven or whatever, we just tell you to leave our group, or our forum, so...

Laura: Yeah.

Juliana: It's like, where is the possible comparison to make with what we do - it's just because somebody used the word 'cult'.

Laura: Because they used the word 'cult', that's...

Juliana: That's totally put so much fear into people's minds, so much prejudice, even.

Jeff: The way it is.

Laura: But you take Catholic, which is almost the same in a certain sense, they've just been there longer, they're part of the landscape - or you say, Methodist, well the Methodists really aren't all that bad, because they're kinda ecumenical, but then it depends - with the Baptists, you know, the various fundamentalist face, the Pentecostals and so forth - all of those are accepted as normal part of our landscape, and no one thinks to call them cults, but they are clearly, as we've just heard described - you know, this is just an offshoot of a fairly mainstream religion, Lutheran church - and it's a cult!

Juliana: Mind programming. What you've just described is...

Laura: From infancy!

Brett: And we even program ourselves - we make sure that we go to church regularly, and listen to those droning sermons, because we do not want to leave this faith.

As an adult we program ourselves!

Laura: And you're afraid of going to hell, that's the main thing.

Brett: Yes.

Jeff: Some will deny that, they'll say that the faith is peace, joy, and righteousness, in the Holy Spirit...

Brett: Let me tell you about my uncle - wasn't it the greatest? I said in a letter, when I left my faith, I said that it's a fear based religion. He wrote back to me and said: "Well I don't have any fear, except when I have sin on my conscience." And I said, "thank you uncle!" [Laughter]

Gaby: You just proved my point!

Brett: Case closed!

Laura: So what do you do, if you think you're a member of a cult, a real cult - what do you think girls?

Arianna: Educate yourself.

Laura: First thing, read Bob Altemeyer's book, Amazing Conversions. And also his book about the authoritarians.

Gaby: Which is available online.

Laura: Yes, for free. What else?

Gaby: Knowledge, I would say especially about psychology, not only Bob Altemeyer, but psychology in general - narcissism, manipulations, covert aggressiveness...

Laura: Because the truth is, there's a lot of people who belong to true cults, or people who are authoritarian personality types, many of them are pathological.

Some people have cults of one, where a man is sexually abusive towards a woman or towards his family, that can be kind of like a cult situation too, because all of the same principles that apply in a larger sense to a bigger group of people apply in abusive relationships.

And the effects on the people are the same, it's post-traumatic stress, they're brainwashed, they're separated from their family, their friends, from real life, from what's going on

Gaby: Which brings another important point, people should extend their network outside the cult.

Laura: Yes.

And for the post-traumatic stress, we have what we believe to be a really good solution, which is based on scientific research - and that's our Eiriu Eolas breathing, healing and rejuvenation program, it's based on solid science, it's not mystical mumbo-jumbo.

You can check it out on the Eiriu-Eolas.org website, and that's E I R I U, hyphen, E O L A S, dot org. Check it out, you can get the program for free.

We're really a very bad cult because we give stuff away, you know [Laugh], so.

Juliana: And no matter what cult you're in, just try to think, is it worth losing your free will - is it worth living a life where you can't make any decisions of your own?

Laura: Where you can't search for truth.

Juliana: Yeah, and if somebody tells you not to do that, then there is a problem, and you need to heal - you're gonna need a lot of time to heal to think for yourself, to have real friends who are not going to judge you if you leave, and that is something kind of getting rare in this world, but you can get it, and you need it if you wanna stay sane in this world.

Gaby: Think - use it or lose it.

Laura: And if you want to find out for yourself whether or not we're a cult, you can just go check out our anti-cult-accusation website - Cassiopaea-Cult.org - that we actually had to create because so many people accuse us of being a cult.

And the reason they accuse us of being a cult is because it's always people who are members of real cults, who accuse us of that!

Because, we are in the business of setting people free from cults. And from abuse, and abusive relationships.

I hope the readers enjoyed this little peek inside another reality, and - we'll be back soon with another episode of SOTT Perspectives.

Good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are on the planet - thank you!

--- End quote ---

truth seeker:
Excellent job Psalehesost! Many thanks.  :flowers:

dant:
Yes, thank you on behalf of all of us
members for this transcript! :clap: :thup: :dance:

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