Author Topic: Origin of Life: The 5th Option  (Read 6930 times)

Offline Approaching Infinity

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2012, 05:02:28 PM »
The Icelandic singer Bjork has just released a new video from her album Biophilia, created by the guy who does those amazing cell videos (Drew Berry). The song itself is kind of dissonant, so if you can't stand it, just turn the volume down and watch the video, because there are some amazing new clips in there.

_http://www.chartattack.com/news/2012/mar/06/watch-bj%C3%B6rk-%E2%80%9Chollow%E2%80%9D-official-music-video
Creation never ceases, and we can participate in it through something greater than we are, greater than the whole group. -J.G. Bennett

Offline Gandalf

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2012, 06:20:52 PM »
The Icelandic singer Bjork has just released a new video from her album Biophilia, created by the guy who does those amazing cell videos (Drew Berry). The song itself is kind of dissonant, so if you can't stand it, just turn the volume down and watch the video, because there are some amazing new clips in there.

_http://www.chartattack.com/news/2012/mar/06/watch-bj%C3%B6rk-%E2%80%9Chollow%E2%80%9D-official-music-video

Thanks for sharing AI but unfortunately I can not see the video. I have that message : "Video not found".  :(
Every time you say "yes" to someone who doesn't deserve it, and go against Yourself and what you value the most, you kill a small part of your essence. LKJ

And tell your friend to quit torturing you with trying to force it down your throat!  There are people whose job it is to just be sweet, loving and caring and it is the job of warriors to look after them.  It's that simple. LKJ

Offline Laura

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2012, 06:53:46 PM »


I'm having trouble tracking down Alister Hardy's "The Stream of Life". I've found his "The Living Stream" on Amazon. Is that essentially the same thing?

That's it.  I was citing the title from memory and mixed it up.
He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.
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Online dugdeep

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2012, 07:08:03 PM »


I'm having trouble tracking down Alister Hardy's "The Stream of Life". I've found his "The Living Stream" on Amazon. Is that essentially the same thing?

That's it.  I was citing the title from memory and mixed it up.

Thanks Laura!
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Offline Bo

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2012, 07:16:57 PM »
The Icelandic singer Bjork has just released a new video from her album Biophilia, created by the guy who does those amazing cell videos (Drew Berry). The song itself is kind of dissonant, so if you can't stand it, just turn the volume down and watch the video, because there are some amazing new clips in there.

_http://www.chartattack.com/news/2012/mar/06/watch-bj%C3%B6rk-%E2%80%9Chollow%E2%80%9D-official-music-video

Thanks for sharing AI but unfortunately I can not see the video. I have that message : "Video not found".  :(

Hi Gandalf,

Here is the same video on youtube:

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wApZaQvXxo0
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Offline Gandalf

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2012, 08:23:43 PM »
Hi Gandalf,

Here is the same video on youtube:

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wApZaQvXxo0

Thanks so much Bo.  :flowers:
Every time you say "yes" to someone who doesn't deserve it, and go against Yourself and what you value the most, you kill a small part of your essence. LKJ

And tell your friend to quit torturing you with trying to force it down your throat!  There are people whose job it is to just be sweet, loving and caring and it is the job of warriors to look after them.  It's that simple. LKJ

Offline parallel

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2012, 10:53:11 PM »
Illustra media has put the full length 'Unlocking the Mystery of Life', (as Psyche mentioned earlier) on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWvS1UfXl8k
Use the present to repair the past, and prepare the future- G

Offline bngenoh

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2012, 02:47:10 AM »
Illustra media has put the full length 'Unlocking the Mystery of Life', (as Psyche mentioned earlier) on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWvS1UfXl8k
That was a good refresher parallel, but the link you provided only goes to part 4, then i can't watch it because of my location, i have found the full length documentary here.

That whole Flagellum thing is a pretty big hole in the titanic that is Darwinian Evolutionary Theory, couple that with Irreducible Complexity, and it is amazing that the ship is still sailing at least for a lot of scientists, but that doesn't surprise me.
For to know our past we may conjecture about our future. and to know our future is to be able to divine our purpose in a cosmic sense. And having done that, our priorities may be ordered accordingly so that we will no longer groan under the weight of feeling cast adrift in an uncaring & hostile universe - orphans of the cosmos - playthings of the gods. -- Laura Knight-Jadczyk The Noah Syndrome

Offline parallel

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2012, 10:59:19 PM »
That whole Flagellum thing is a pretty big hole in the titanic that is Darwinian Evolutionary Theory, couple that with Irreducible Complexity, and it is amazing that the ship is still sailing at least for a lot of scientists, but that doesn't surprise me.

I was having trouble seeing through the phlagellum debunking arguments that are around, which 'Unlocking...' helped deconstruct. The natural selection teamsters think themselves defeating the 'irreducable complexity' argument by the phlagellum consisting mainly of homologous proteins otherwise available, but disregard the remaining unique components, and most of all the needed sequential assembly (by impossible odds) from which, natural selection only after the fact would be able to operate on.

I'm still only in earlier chapters of '5th option', which is facinating also for one without education in these regions, but can't wait to see what Shiller has to say about irreducable complexity, does anyone know circa where he goes into that? (there is no keyword index)
Use the present to repair the past, and prepare the future- G

Offline SethianSeth

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2012, 04:55:04 AM »
Has anyone who read this book tried contacting Shiller? At the very end of the book he requests input and also claims that another book is on the way. I realize that he doesn't really have the whole picture, but I found myself screaming "psychopathy! psychopathy!" in the final chapters with his discussion of the genetic variable (GV) and cultural variable (CV) as a potential "self-limiting" component to the living system. It seems to me that if he had an understanding of Ponerology, this book's value would increase exponentially and he would likely reframe in a much more applicable way his "speculative" last few thoughts. I don't even need him to get into the hyperdimensional aspect.

Really worthwhile read. His reframing of the second law of thermodynamics with regards to the living system, as well as the "evolution filters" really added clarity for me in areas that were poorly formulated in my understanding with regards to life and what it is up to.

This is a book that I would gladly share with my christian family, perhaps as a bit of a trap: "If you read this book, you'll have all the ammo you'll need to argue against one of those pesky militant athiests!"  :P
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 04:57:23 AM by SethianSeth »
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Offline buz/p

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2012, 02:35:28 PM »
I finished the book this morning after a marathon of reading The Fifth Option and Irreducible Mind in tandem. The consensus seems to be forming here that Shiller is on to something. I agree.  As dense a read as it was I thought that  Shiller needed to include most of what he did in order to lay a foundation for the theory of Rational Design Hypothesis. Of course I don't necessarily agree with all of his premises. However, on balance I can find very little fault in his reasoning. As Laura said, definitely "a keeper". 

The general idea of mind creating matter instead of matter creating mind is quite compelling based on E. F. Kelly et. al. findings in Psychology. Which reminds me...
"I've got nothing to say, but it's ok. Good Morning, Good Morning, Good Morning."
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Offline Approaching Infinity

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2012, 09:07:48 PM »
While doing some browsing I came across a book that looks like it might be interesting. Has anyone heard of it? It's called The Rainbow And The Worm: The Physics of Organisms by Mae-Wan Ho. Here's a bit from online:

Quote
About the Author
After obtaining her PhD in Biochemistry, Hong Kong University, Mae-Wan Ho embarked on a distinguished research career that included a postdoctoral fellowship in Neurosciences, University of California at San Diego, Fellowship of the National Genetics Foundation, USA. Senior Research Fellow in Biochemistry, University of London, Lecturer in Genetics then Reader in Biology, Open University. Her research evolved through biochemistry to molecular genetics, non-Darwinian evolution, and since 1988, the physics of living organization, defining a new field with the present book, widely acclaimed by serious scientists across the disciplines and by non-scientists alike.

A serious, in-depth enquiry into Schrödinger's question, "What is Life?" and at the same time, a celebration of life itself

A voyage of discovery through many areas of contemporary physics from non-equilibrium thermodynamics to quantum optics in order to understand the problem of life

A rare and exquisite view of the organism, giving novel insights, not only into the physics, but also "the poetry and meaning of being alive"

Contents:

    What is It to be Alive?
    Do Organisms Contravene the Second Law?
    Can the Second Law Cope with Organized Complexity?

    Energy Flow and Living Cycles
    How to Catch a Falling Electron
    Towards a Thermodynamics of Organized Complexity
    Sustainable Systems as Organisms
    The Seventy-Three Octaves of Nature’s Music
    The Coherent Excitation of the Body Electric
    The Solid State Cell
    “Life is a Little Electric Current”
    How Coherent is the Organism? The Heartbeat of Health
    How Coherent is the Organism? Sensitivity to Weak Electromagnetic Fields
    Life is All the Colours of the Rainbow in a Worm
    The Liquid Crystalline Organism
    Crystal Consciousness
    Liquid Crystalline Water
    Quantum Entanglement and Coherence
    The Ignorance of the External Observer
    Time and Freewill

_http://www.i-sis.org.uk/rnbwwrm.php

You can view a more extended version of the table of contents on the amazon preview for the book.

Sott actually has some articles by her (from her organisation, ISIS) on the dangers of vaccines, roundup, genetic engineering.
Creation never ceases, and we can participate in it through something greater than we are, greater than the whole group. -J.G. Bennett

Offline Shijing

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2012, 10:43:02 PM »
While doing some browsing I came across a book that looks like it might be interesting. Has anyone heard of it? It's called The Rainbow And The Worm: The Physics of Organisms by Mae-Wan Ho.

Coincidentally, it just arrived yesterday -- I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but I agree it looks pretty intriguing. She also has a follow-up book -- Living Rainbow H2O. Another book that looks like it might fit is Jerry Pollack's Cells, Gels and the Engines of Life.  Ho and Pollack are both going to be presenting this January on the Electricity of Life panel of the Thunderbolts conference.

I'm interested partly because of how it ties in with earthing, which my rolfer is currently experimenting with; she and her husband have experienced some very good results with it in the past couple of months, and I'm trying to learn more about it.
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Bearing yet not possessing,
Working yet not taking credit,
Leading yet not dominating,
This is the Primal Virtue."

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Offline obyvatel

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2012, 09:19:33 AM »
While doing some browsing I came across a book that looks like it might be interesting. Has anyone heard of it? It's called The Rainbow And The Worm: The Physics of Organisms by Mae-Wan Ho.

   I found the book interesting and the author's approach appealing. I haven't read the Fifth Option or other such books - so my take my opinion fwiw.  It is a dense read with math. Her system model is in line with 4th Way cosmology imo.

   She approaches living systems from both thermodynamic, electromagnetic and quantum perspectives. Her model of a living system (she mentions both organisms and the earth) is one of "organized heterogenity and dynamism" which makes bulk thermodynamical approaches unsuitable for studying such systems. Spatial organization wise, various processes in a living organism encompass a scale varying over 10 orders of magnitude - from 0.1 nano meters for interactions between molecules to meters for movement patterns in large animals. Temporally, resonant energy transfer processes occur in the scale of ~10 femto seconds while circannual rhythms take 1 year. Living systems are like nested russian dolls - or coupled energy flow cycles - with no sharp demarcation of a system boundary. This corresponds to the cosmoses in 4th Way.


    In her thermodynamic considerations of living systems, she stresses on the importance of energy storage under energy flow rather than just energy flow or energy dissipation. Stored energy builds up structures which in turn affect energy flows. Taking an analogy, smooth flow of water in a lake can be seen as energy flow. Formation of eddies would be some organized structures which store energy and affect the flow of water (energy) around it. The eddies arise and stay for some time before dissipating - representing what we understand as life cycles. Greater the complexity and coherence of the structure, longer it takes to dissipate. This formulation corresponds to the concept of "bodies" in 4th Way with higher being bodies having higher coherence (energy) and longer life spans.

    Mae Wan Ho states that her thermodynamic model of organized complexity depends upon the space-time structure and its heterogenity (unlike thermodynamic analyses which ignore space-time). This allows for free variation of microscopic states within macroscopic constraints. She formulates her thermodynamic model thus

Quote from: Rainbow and the Worm
 
 The organism can be regarded, in effect, as a closed, self-sufficient energetic domain of cyclic non-dissipative processes coupled to irreversible dissipative processes. In the formalism of conventional thermodynamics, the life cycle, or more precisely, the living system in dynamic equilibrium, consists of all cyclic processes for which the net entropy change is zero, coupled to dissipative processes necessary to keep it going, for which the net entropy change is greater than zero.

  In other words, there is an internal entropy compensation as well as coherent energy conservation due to the predominance of coupled cyclic processes and the nested space-time organisation of the processes. That means the system maintains its organisation (or negative-entropy state) while it is metabolising and transforming energy.

   On a relatively higher macro scale, Mae Wan Ho likens our current state of the world with its practices of competitive growth as an open spiral swallowing up resources and exporting massive amounts of entropy without any closure (STS) . In contrast, the sustainable ecosystem would look like the zero-entropy model with dynamically closed cycle which would promote sustainable organic growth (STO?). Picture a series of embedded  closed loops (eddies or closed zero entropy structures) on an open flowing stream as an energetic representative of a sustainable eco-system.
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Offline ROEL

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Re: Origin of Life: The 5th Option
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2012, 06:55:09 AM »

That was a good refresher parallel, but the link you provided only goes to part 4, then i can't watch it because of my location, i have found the full length documentary here.


What I get at the link is "The video has been removed by the user"
Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.