Astrology

Thank you Laura for all you have given, thank you for your time, it means a LOT!
I read that you were feeling low earlier, and hope you are feeling better.

I have little time to read, but lot of time to think, as my job requires my hands and eyes, and most of my waken hours, but leaves quite a lot of space to think still. So please forgive me if I should have been able to figure this out of my own, by studying.
I have been pondering this for a while, and can't make sense of it.

(I hope it is not stupid questions.)


Is it that the future is open, and it makes one fixed on certain outcomes that is the reason for the caution against using astrology?

If not could you please specify what the danger is?

As far as I, (and many others) have observed, Astrology "works"
If Astrology "works" how is it that it is not useful?

Is it that Astrology works, but distracts one from something?

If yes, could you please give a hint to what?


Thank you

Hi Miss K,

Laura has posted some interesting material regarding the origins of astrology in
Origins of Comets = Origin of Astrology

[quote author=MissK]
As far as I, (and many others) have observed, Astrology "works" . If Astrology "works" how is it that it is not useful?
[/quote]

Can you clarify what you mean by useful - like what is it being used for?

obyvatel said:

Hi Miss K,

Laura has posted some interesting material regarding the origins of astrology in
Origins of Comets = Origin of Astrology

[quote author=MissK]
As far as I, (and many others) have observed, Astrology "works" . If Astrology "works" how is it that it is not useful?

Click to expand...

Can you clarify what you mean by useful - like what is it being used for?




[/quote]

Thank you obyvatel, I have been reading that thread, (fast) but I couldn't understand. It is on my reading list to read again, but I'm not sure if it doesn't answer my question or if I'm too dense to get it.

By useful I mean like a weather report, to know when to expect to have to put on a raincoat in order not to be wet figuratively.
I find that it (astrology) is actually quite accurate, but just a little difficult to read, as all is written in symbols, (and each symbol has several meanings) and one has to be careful not to apply wishful thinking, (but that goes with anything)
I find that it can give lots of clues as to understanding one self. It might be the mechanics of ones physical, and emotional body that one can see, but I still find that very useful to understand, as it is what one lives in, until one has risen above.
And also it shows the mechanics of the outside influences, and can give clues as to how to solve certain problems that one has.

I started studying Astrology because I figured out that I was ruled by those influences, and don't like to be ruled (at least not by such inconsiderate rulers) I thought I better study them to see if I could find a way out. I have not been able to find a way out yet, but find it very practical when I can see a certain problem I have, is mirrored (don't know if it's the right word to use) by a hard transit, that I can then see when it will be over. That way I can plan better, and it also helps me, just seeing that I'm under influence, so I don't loose my mind thinking I have gone mad.

Like knowing how hormones work, can help one coping with the emotional effect of hormones.

I also prefer to use horary astrology for asking questions to using other tools like tarot and such, as I find that the answers get clouded by my emotional state often when using cards and such; Lets say I feel very sad about something and I'm trying to find a way to get better, or where to start for best result.
When I ask the cards they will often just reply that I feel very sad, and I'll go "yes I know that, but I asked where best to start to get better"
The horary horoscope I find answers more accurately, it will perhaps answer "you feel very sad, and you won't get it the way you want, but you have best chances getting better by studying/going to see some friend/focusing on your career/etc"

So I'm thinking that either I'm delusional and see meanings where none are, if I think that Astrology works. Or it works, and if it works, I can't understand why it would not be smart to use, as it seems to me like not wanting to look at the weather report before going hiking, which I can't understand why would not be a good idea.

The C's have said something like that it is only useful if using the old astrology before Venus entered, but I can see the effect of Venus, and also big difference of influences from Virgo, Libra and Scorpio, that as far as I've understood was one sign back then, and VERY noticeable effect of the outer planets when aspecting important points in the birth chart by transit. And I guess the outer planets were not used back then, as humans hadn't discovered they were there yet.
As it is often life changing events that happen at such times, I would think that it is practical to be warned in advance as to be able to do some preparations, even if one can't know exactly how it's going to play out.

So the only thing I can think of that would make it not smart to use, would be if it somehow tricks one, and if it is the case, I want to understand how it tricks.

It puzzles me...I hope I make sense


-edit- missing word in sentence added

Miss.K said:

obyvatel said:

Hi Miss K,

Laura has posted some interesting material regarding the origins of astrology in
Origins of Comets = Origin of Astrology

[quote author=MissK]
As far as I, (and many others) have observed, Astrology "works" . If Astrology "works" how is it that it is not useful?

Click to expand...

Can you clarify what you mean by useful - like what is it being used for?

Click to expand...

Thank you obyvatel, I have been reading that thread, (fast) but I couldn't understand. It is on my reading list to read again, but I'm not sure if it doesn't answer my question or if I'm too dense to get it.
[/quote]


One question is does the alignment of planets at the time of birth affect characteristics of an individual? Personal horoscopes are cast based partly on planetary alignments at the time of birth.

On the linked thread above, it is said about zodiacal astrology

Nevertheless, although the principal occupants of the zodiacal belt are nowadays the sun, moon and planets, there are no very strong reasons for believing that any of these bodies yet played a significant role in the supposed influence of the zodiac on the earth. Rather, these objects, which vary their stations along the ecliptic, seem to have been used more as calendrical or chronological markers, a great event in the sky being appropriated by the king (or his minions) and dated by the position of the sun and the moon and the disposition of the planets amongst the constellations. This view is supported, for example, by re-cent studies of the astronomical iconography of stelae and of kudurrus (Tuman 1986) which indicate that planets, in the first instance at least, were observed for purely calendrical purposes.

Click to expand...

And then about horoscopic astrology

The appeal to geometry by the Greeks, then, is associated with the emergence during the fourth century before Christ of a totally new form of physical astronomy now known as horoscopic astrology'. This revolutionary development was based, in fact, on the completely false premise that planets exerted a distant influence on terrestrial affairs. However, unlike either judicial or zodiacal astrology, which as we have seen might have had a proper physical basis involving a direct contact between astronomical objects and the earth, horoscopic astrology, being specifically related to an imagined, remote influence of the planets (i.e. 'action at a distance'), is entirely spurious.

A direct consequence of this new theory was that other-wise unimportant planetary conjunctions or alignments were now perceived as having great significance. Here again we are dealing with a contrived, yet false transformation of ideas, for in the original judicial astrology there is some evidence that a catastrophe was widely associated with the aftermath of a conference or gathering of the gods (Butterfield 1981). Times of acute crisis might originally have been associated quite plausibly with conjunctions of cometary bodies or extended swarms of fireballs, but the later association attributing significance to the conjunction of planets is patently absurd.

Click to expand...

It does raise questions about some of the grounds of validity about astrology claimed in modern times regarding the antiquity of astrological practices. It does seem probable that astrology as practiced by the ancients (before advent of Greeks) may have had quite a different purpose compared to how it is used today.

[quote author=MissK]
By useful I mean like a weather report, to know when to expect to have to put on a raincoat in order not to be wet figuratively.
I find that it (astrology) is actually quite accurate, but just a little difficult to read, as all is written in symbols, (and each symbol has several meanings) and one has to be careful not to apply wishful thinking, (but that goes with anything)
I find that it can give lots of clues as to understanding one self. It might be the mechanics of ones physical, and emotional body that one can see, but I still find that very useful to understand, as it is what one lives in, until one has risen above.
And also it shows the mechanics of the outside influences, and can give clues as to how to solve certain problems that one has.
[/quote]


Wishful thinking and subjective validation are serious issues that cannot be overlooked in the context of interpreting symbols. Consider the following where the author is providing a personal character assessment

[quote author=David Mcraney in You Are Not So Smart]

You have a need for other people to like and admire you, and yet you tend to be critical of yourself. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. You have considerable unused capacity that you have not turned to your advantage. Disciplined and self-controlled on the outside, you tend to be worried and insecure on the inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You also pride yourself on being an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. But you have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable and sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary and reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be rather unrealistic.


Does this sound accurate? Does it describe you?

It should. It describes everyone.

All the above statements came from a 1948 experiment by Bertram R. Forer. He gave his students a personality test and told them each one had been personally assessed, but then gave everyone the same analysis.

He asked his students to look over the statements and rate them for accuracy. On average, they rated the bogus analysis as 85% correct - as if it had been personally prepared to describe each of them. The block of text above was actually a mishmash of lines from horoscopes collected by Forer for the experiment.
[/quote]

There is perhaps another aspect to the practice of astrology as it is today - as with other divination tools. Some people have certain psychic abilities which amounts to seeing the unseen. When such people use certain tools to focus on getting answers to what they are trying to see, they may get results. I wonder whether this is also something worth considering in this regard - that astrology could be a tool which someone with greater than average intuitive and psychic skills can use to glean information. But I could be off on the above.

Personally, I have seen that periods of life when I have felt a need to get astrological guidance were periods where I was feeling helpless about my abilities to handle what life had thrown at me. I do not have psychic abilities - also I do not trust myself enough to avoid ego traps and subjective validations to extract any signal that may be available from an astrological reading - so I tend to avoid it.

My 2 cents fwiw

Thank you for taking the time to help me understand obyvatel,

obyvatel said:

One question is does the alignment of planets at the time of birth affect characteristics of an individual? Personal horoscopes are cast based partly on planetary alignments at the time of birth.

On the linked thread above, it is said about zodiacal astrology

Nevertheless, although the principal occupants of the zodiacal belt are nowadays the sun, moon and planets, there are no very strong reasons for believing that any of these bodies yet played a significant role in the supposed influence of the zodiac on the earth. Rather, these objects, which vary their stations along the ecliptic, seem to have been used more as calendrical or chronological markers, a great event in the sky being appropriated by the king (or his minions) and dated by the position of the sun and the moon and the disposition of the planets amongst the constellations. This view is supported, for example, by re-cent studies of the astronomical iconography of stelae and of kudurrus (Tuman 1986) which indicate that planets, in the first instance at least, were observed for purely calendrical purposes.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

If I understand right, translated to language of the simple minded, the above says that in the start, watching the movements of the sun moon and planets, was to keep track of time, but they still knew that it showed that some times are better than others, so they would let the king know so he could benefit.

Is that close or am I missing the point?
(I'm not trying to be cute here, I'm just having difficulties understanding intellectual language)

As to whether the alignment of planets at the time of birth affect characteristics of an individual. I don't know if it is so, or if an individual is somehow drawn to being born at the time where the planets tell the story of the physical and emotional make up of that individual.

But I find that the planetary positions in the birth chart does describe the characteristics of an individual.
I guess one can only find out by observing and testing, if it is so or not.

obyvatel said:

And then about horoscopic astrology

The appeal to geometry by the Greeks, then, is associated with the emergence during the fourth century before Christ of a totally new form of physical astronomy now known as horoscopic astrology'. This revolutionary development was based, in fact, on the completely false premise that planets exerted a distant influence on terrestrial affairs. However, unlike either judicial or zodiacal astrology, which as we have seen might have had a proper physical basis involving a direct contact between astronomical objects and the earth, horoscopic astrology, being specifically related to an imagined, remote influence of the planets (i.e. 'action at a distance'), is entirely spurious.

A direct consequence of this new theory was that other-wise unimportant planetary conjunctions or alignments were now perceived as having great significance. Here again we are dealing with a contrived, yet false transformation of ideas, for in the original judicial astrology there is some evidence that a catastrophe was widely associated with the aftermath of a conference or gathering of the gods (Butterfield 1981). Times of acute crisis might originally have been associated quite plausibly with conjunctions of cometary bodies or extended swarms of fireballs, but the later association attributing significance to the conjunction of planets is patently absurd.

Click to expand...

It does raise questions about some of the grounds of validity about astrology claimed in modern times regarding the antiquity of astrological practices. It does seem probable that astrology as practiced by the ancients (before advent of Greeks) may have had quite a different purpose compared to how it is used today.

Click to expand...

[/quote]

OK if I understand right, the above says that it is pretty ridiculous deciding that there is 360 degrees all the way around, and that dividing the 360 degrees into 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, and thinking that they have any influence on each other when being in these positions that are made up.

This I would agree completely with if it wasn't because I have noticed quite significant effects from aspects. I'd say that the conjunctions, squares and oppositions are definitely the most noticeable, but I have observed plenty effects from the minor aspects as well.

It really is not that I believe in Astrology, I have never gone to any Astro schools, (have one time attended a weekend class on how to adjust birth time, when the exact time is not known, and thought the people there, who had gone to astro schools for many years, and even the teacher, had somehow not learned how to think, and was repeating very limited interpretations)
But I don't think I'm that far, so I don't think I can do something with astrology that most people can't.
For example I remember Laura writing that she could see who the killer was by horary horoscope (it might have been in combination with dreams) and I would not at all feel confident that I would be able to do that

I have mainly learned from reading some books and then for the last ten years I've been following the movements of transits and progressions and seeing what happens in life when something happens, or having something going on in life and then checking transits and progressions to see if they tell the same story as what happens. and as said I found it uncomfortable when I first realized how ruled I was, so I have tried plenty to prove the planets wrong when they were messing with me. And totally failed to be free from their influences.

This is with my own life and horoscope, as well as friends and family, and I am yet to see a mayor aspect that doesn't have effect, or doesn't tell the story of what is happening in life.


I have been thinking a lot about why and how it can be so, and I don't know why, but I can observe that it is.
Also, as the zodiac has moved, the planets don't even sit in the places that the horoscope shows, but when I have tried to put them where they really are, the horoscope is a lot less accurate I find.
Also the taking a 3d sky, and making it into a flat 2d drawing, would make one doubt if it is really useful.

So my problem is that it seems illogical that it should work, but I see real life proof that it does work, all the time.

But that it has changed or evolved over time, isn't that only logical like any other science? (I know astrology is not a science according to most)
What I mean is that, though I would think that it would be logical to assume that it has been corrupted like anything else, that has been allowed to survive, But that it has changed and developed over time, is not proof to me that it is not useful.

Is there something I don't get that is obvious?

obyvatel said:

Wishful thinking and subjective validation are serious issues that cannot be overlooked in the context of interpreting symbols. Consider the following where the author is providing a personal character assessment

David Mcraney in You Are Not So Smart] You have a need for other people to like and admire you said:

Personally, I have seen that periods of life when I have felt a need to get astrological guidance were periods where I was feeling helpless about my abilities to handle what life had thrown at me. I do not have psychic abilities - also I do not trust myself enough to avoid ego traps and subjective validations to extract any signal that may be available from an astrological reading - so I tend to avoid it.

My 2 cents fwiw

Click to expand...

:D Personally there has been very few times in my life since around 10, where I wasn't feeling helpless about my abilities to handle what life had thrown at me.

But I'm not sure that I can find that many ego traps in my using astrology, as mostly it does not tell me what my ego wants to hear, as my ego would really rather have the whole world being in love with me and everything I wanted handed to me on a silver plate.
But the story of my life and the story of my horoscope tells the boring story of having to surrender my ego, and getting trouble for my egoism, paying for it, and getting the wonderful lesson of learning that less is more, and how was it the tarots put it lately when I wanted to hear if I would ever find a love relationship, that all I could get was "noble spiritual growth through loneliness" -ha! that really wasn't what I wanted to hear, as I am not yet at a stage where "noble" seems better that "hot love" (OK that was the cards, but the horoscope is as mean)

I think that my studying astrology has helped me accept some of my life lessons, and in understanding that we have different paths and missions, and that it is not fair, but just how it is, and a waste of time to be upset about it, but that working with the lessons does have rewards.

Of cause my ego might want to appear noble, but I don't think it cares that much about being the noble one, unless it gets a lot of praise for being so, and in the noble loneliness there is no one to praise it.

I don't want to be annoying, but I still don't see how it is not beneficial as to tool to understand one self, or certain life lessons.


Only if it doesn't work, but I really can't say it doesn't work, due to my observations. I'm not saying that it is impossible that I'm fooled here, but I have thought about the cons a lot, and tried to defy being ruled, and would even like it to not fit, as that would seem like getting a lot of free will.

But I don't want to pretend that I'm not ruled if I am, and I do think it must be the first step to breaking free to understand the prison, and as astro communities tend to be a little like religious people, I think it would be very interesting to discuss it here, and test it, but I don't want to do so, if it is not appropriate, and I would really like to understand why it isn't if it isn't.

Sorry for the length, and hope I make sense

Click to expand...

Hi MissK

The debate about whether astrology works or not is decades if not centuries old. Those who believe in it cite examples where predictions have come to pass or were verified in hindsight. Those who say it does not work have their examples as well. One could perhaps say that astrology does produce results which are better than that dictated by random chance for some people some of the times, but not for all people at all times. In such a situation, it may not be possible to conclusively prove whether astrology works or not.

As regards using astrology as a tool for self development, there are other tools like from the field of cognitive psychology, Gurdjieff's works, Jung's works which many here find easier to use to understand how our minds work. These tend to be more direct than astrology with regards to knowledge of the self.

[quote author=MissK]

But I don't want to pretend that I'm not ruled if I am, and I do think it must be the first step to breaking free to understand the prison, and as astro communities tend to be a little like religious people, I think it would be very interesting to discuss it here, and test it, but I don't want to do so, if it is not appropriate, and I would really like to understand why it isn't if it isn't.
[/quote]

We are ruled by external influences - but planets moving in the distant skies are not likely to be primary cause of such influence. Have you read Laura's Wave series/Secret History/ High Strangeness? The prison that we are in is much more likely be related to the hyperdimensional nature of reality rather than planetary movements.

[quote author=MissK]
So the only thing I can think of that would make it not smart to use, would be if it somehow tricks one, and if it is the case, I want to understand how it tricks.
[/quote]
We are not in control of our minds - we are ruled by external forces to a large extent and in this situation it is our mind is the instrument that tricks us. If you haven't already, I would suggest taking a look at some of the threads in the Psychology and Cognitive Science board like
The Adaptive Unconscious
Redirect
Thinking Fast and Slow.

At the end, it comes down to what your aim is for this incarnation and what is the most efficient way of moving towards your aim. There could be more powerful tools than astrology that could help you in your journey.

While I agree with obyvatel, I just wanted to add that there's probably something to astrology -- it's original roots -- but like everything else, it's been corrupted and twisted to a point that not much of Truth can be gleaned from it anymore, like religion, etc. The C's, Laura in several articles, and Gurdjieff (more hinting) have said as much.

In its original form, it may have been a profound science that we can not fully reconstruct without long and thorough research. So among the other tools for self study and study of the universe, it may be something to look into, but you must keep in mind that it will take quite a lot of studying and separating the wheat from the chaff while keeping an open but critical mind to get anywhere. I don't know that much about it and haven't put the effort to try to learn, but I would be interested in more objective research findings about astrology. FWIW.

Laura seems to know quite a lot about the subject and all the distortions introduced into it over many, many centuries (no surprise there :) ). She may someday write more about her findings when she has time. I'd be very interested in that.

Miss K.,


I personally think that maybe the most valid thing one can learn from astrology is archetypes and how they interact with each other, in an intuitive kind of way- not 100% black and white. The same could be said in tarot, Jungian archetypes, etc.


The thing is, if one keeps working, one will transcend their original "type" , as the hemispheres of the brain come more into synch. This alone would seem to suggest that locking oneself into a finite chart would be limiting. Many of the energies of the planets "out there" are projections of people "down here". :) So, understanding energy dynamics is crucial, but assigning them to distant planets is not.


Moreover, as Laura's article suggests, the original function was to look out for comets and fireballs.


The best overall approach , to me anyway, is to study symbols and archetypes with the right brain, and cognitive science and data with the left brain.


As obyvatal said, we are surely rules by external forces. It would be tragic to limit that understanding to astrology where it was never the original intent of the science to begin with.

obyvatel said:

Hi MissK

The debate about whether astrology works or not is decades if not centuries old. Those who believe in it cite examples where predictions have come to pass or were verified in hindsight. Those who say it does not work have their examples as well. One could perhaps say that astrology does produce results which are better than that dictated by random chance for some people some of the times, but not for all people at all times. In such a situation, it may not be possible to conclusively prove whether astrology works or not.

As regards using astrology as a tool for self development, there are other tools like from the field of cognitive psychology, Gurdjieff's works, Jung's works which many here find easier to use to understand how our minds work. These tend to be more direct than astrology with regards to knowledge of the self.

Click to expand...

Hi Obyvatel,

I agree that there are many ways to get to understand one self, and I think that some of the reason why I can use astrology, is because I combine knowledge from other things I study. It is not like I can know exactly what will happen, but I can know pretty exactly when it will happen, and I have not found anything else that can do that (other than intuition, that can be hard to differ from wishful thinking, and sometimes it is only in retrospect I can tell the difference)
I don't think it is that difficult to test, as for example just knowing the birth time, and seeing what happens when outer planets touch the axis, I would think that most people would have events that are shown by those. Isn't that worth a study?
Another reason why I think it would be very interesting to test here, is that I read once an astrologer who wrote that the more evolved a person becomes, the harder it is to do a reading, because more free will is applied.
As I'm working on evolving in my own slow way, and as I've mentioned have not at all been able to not have my house blown away with these events, and I would think that some people here would be further in exercising free will, and thus it would be interesting to see if they are just better at handling what life throws at those times or if they just don't even notice the storm, if you understand what I mean.

obyvatel said:

MissK] But I don't want to pretend that I'm not ruled if I am said:

[quote author=MissK]
So the only thing I can think of that would make it not smart to use, would be if it somehow tricks one, and if it is the case, I want to understand how it tricks.

Click to expand...

We are not in control of our minds - we are ruled by external forces to a large extent and in this situation it is our mind is the instrument that tricks us. If you haven't already, I would suggest taking a look at some of the threads in the Psychology and Cognitive Science board like
The Adaptive Unconscious
Redirect
Thinking Fast and Slow.

At the end, it comes down to what your aim is for this incarnation and what is the most efficient way of moving towards your aim. There could be more powerful tools than astrology that could help you in your journey.

Click to expand...

I have been skimming the redirect thread, thanks, I'll check it again, and look into the others.
I am not sure what my aim is, other than broaden my understanding of things, stop screwing up so much, and mastering 2d drawing, (and of cause finding love, but I suspect that part of that is female programming) I think my reason for finding astrology so useful, is that I've had some things happening before knowing about astrology, at times of hard transits/progressions, that made me unable to work towards my aims, and I prefer not to be taken by surprise like that again, so it is very comforting for me that I know when catastrophes hit, even if I can't know exactly how it's going to play out.
I have often thought that had I known astrology (in the way I use it) a lot earlier, I could maybe have saved myself some trouble, or have gotten some clues as to how to handle what life was throwing. (also made better use of some once in a lifetime chances of getting out of poverty, where I in my great selfimportance just thought, that now finally I got things handed on a silver platter because I'm so great, and basically just leaned back, instead of using it as a springboard )

So as said, I have not been able to find another tool that does that (say when) and this is why it is difficult for me to understand why it is not subject of study here as well, and as I have great respect for the findings of Laura and team, I would think that there is a reason, and maybe it's just me, but it feels like the reason is not that it's difficult to prove whether or not it works, but more in the direction that there is some danger.
The danger of using a tool wrongly is there with most anything one can use, -one does not stop using a knife to cut ones pork chops, just because some people have been known to kill with knifes. So I'm still puzzled here, but it might just be that I'm thick headed.

SeekinTruth said:

While I agree with obyvatel, I just wanted to add that there's probably something to astrology -- it's original roots -- but like everything else, it's been corrupted and twisted to a point that not much of Truth can be gleaned from it anymore, like religion, etc. The C's, Laura in several articles, and Gurdjieff (more hinting) have said as much.

In its original form, it may have been a profound science that we can not fully reconstruct without long and thorough research. So among the other tools for self study and study of the universe, it may be something to look into, but you must keep in mind that it will take quite a lot of studying and separating the wheat from the chaff while keeping an open but critical mind to get anywhere. I don't know that much about it and haven't put the effort to try to learn, but I would be interested in more objective research findings about astrology. FWIW.

Laura seems to know quite a lot about the subject and all the distortions introduced into it over many, many centuries (no surprise there :) ). She may someday write more about her findings when she has time. I'd be very interested in that.

Click to expand...

Hi SeekinTruth,

I agree that it has been corrupted, but so has anything else, but I still observe that it tells pretty accurately when the things happen, and actually itdoesn't take that long to think "OK when I was 20 I had my heart broken and it took me 5 years to recover" or "OK when I was 6 my family moved, and it changed my life completely as I got new friends" or whatever good or bad, but big things (sometimes the bad things are easier to see) And then entering ones birth day time and place, entering the approximate date for what happened that was big, and see if one has transits from slow moving planets to axis or progressed planets making mayor aspects or changing sign.
I still think that people that say that one can not know if one can use it that way, have not tried, and as I know that Laura have used it before, I'm puzzled as said.
(OMG! I really hope I'm not very annoying, it is really that I don't get it, sorry)

Daenerys said:

Miss K.,


I personally think that maybe the most valid thing one can learn from astrology is archetypes and how they interact with each other, in an intuitive kind of way- not 100% black and white. The same could be said in tarot, Jungian archetypes, etc.


The thing is, if one keeps working, one will transcend their original "type" , as the hemispheres of the brain come more into synch. This alone would seem to suggest that locking oneself into a finite chart would be limiting. Many of the energies of the planets "out there" are projections of people "down here". :) So, understanding energy dynamics is crucial, but assigning them to distant planets is not.


Moreover, as Laura's article suggests, the original function was to look out for comets and fireballs.


The best overall approach , to me anyway, is to study symbols and archetypes with the right brain, and cognitive science and data with the left brain.


As obyvatal said, we are surely rules by external forces. It would be tragic to limit that understanding to astrology where it was never the original intent of the science to begin with.

Click to expand...

Hi Daenerys,

I don't really think so much that I am ruled by planets, but more that the planetary movements show when the personal comets hit so to speak, also I think that it is a tool, more than something that ends there, if you understand what I mean.

-gotta get back to work,
thanks for feedback all, I'll ponder on here

-edit, greeting

Miss.K said:

I agree that it has been corrupted, but so has anything else, but I still observe that it tells pretty accurately when the things happen, and actually itdoesn't take that long to think "OK when I was 20 I had my heart broken and it took me 5 years to recover" or "OK when I was 6 my family moved, and it changed my life completely as I got new friends" or whatever good or bad, but big things (sometimes the bad things are easier to see) And then entering ones birth day time and place, entering the approximate date for what happened that was big, and see if one has transits from slow moving planets to axis or progressed planets making mayor aspects or changing sign.
I still think that people that say that one can not know if one can use it that way, have not tried, and as I know that Laura have used it before, I'm puzzled as said.
(OMG! I really hope I'm not very annoying, it is really that I don't get it, sorry)

Click to expand...

First, you're not annoying so don't worry. Second, even if one were to know when certain events were to occur, that still leaves the problem of knowing exactly what would happen and what the individuals response would be. In the case of the latter, the individual might have some chance of having control over that if they strive to know themselves but this can only be done with Work as I understand it. Even then, things happen and we have our lessons to learn.

There's nothing wrong with lessons if we view them objectively as such. On the other hand, if we go through life beating ourselves up for them, I think it does little if anything to help us grow.

I could be off, but what it seems like is that you want some semblance of control over your environment which is not at all unusual but we can't prevent our lessons unless we learn from them and even then, there is another one waiting. The amazing thing about this is that the Universe knows what it's doing. In some way you can't see yet, all of your experiences put together have helped you to arrive at this very moment. All of the years of wondering, of asking "why", of pain, have helped you to get here and you survived through it all!

To be able to use anything as a tool, one must objectively understand it as such. One must also understand themselves enough to know why they are using it or else it becomes subject to being misused. In Laura's communications with the c's, she found quite early and often that she was to learn on her own steam and not be reliant. Even with such information, she couldn't sidestep her lessons - they were hers to learn and she had done so beautifully.

I've found with things like astrology, tarot, etc that it's incredibly easy to want to fall back on the "information" conveyed. Quite often, the "information" is read by the receiver in a way that subscribes to their subjective view of reality. It's easier said than done, but there's no way around this, in my opinion - one has to go through it. One has to know and understand their reactions, their motivations, etc in order to "graduate" from each lesson. To attempt to do it any other way is basically an attempt to cheat the system.

Miss.K, be careful it doesn't become an obsession. It is tending to have that flavor to it. In recent months, there's been a few threads about astrology where quite a bit of obsession and identification was shown. It seems you too are very identified with your ideas about astrology.

I recently read the book "The Last Days of John Lennon." Yoko Ono was obsessed with astrology and had John running in circles because of it and a bunch of other mumbo jumbo -- mostly it seems just as a tool for control. So, again, be careful about becoming obsessed.

I've personally had much more experience with the I Ching and other archetypal studies. But I try very hard not to anticipate and NOT to become obsessed. Many years ago, I noticed that if you're not in an open enough state, the answers you get from the I Ching are very difficult to interpret. When you're not so concerned (or obsessed) with the outcome, you get remarkably relevant and easy to interpret answers. FWIW.

Added: just so truth seeker's post. Good points and input.

Thanks truth seeker and SeekingTruth,

Good points both, I have a lot of buts and the other side to the coin, but it is true that I tend to obsess (working on that) but that is with anything as well as astrology.
So as I'm also having not to obsess on this, I shall stop asking for more and ponder what has been given.

Thank you

I see astrology as a tool to see programming and as a tool to find insight into how to heal wounds. Never thought of it as a way to avoid lessons or control the future.