Esoterica > Questions For the Cs
Astrology
Miss.K:
Thank you Laura for all you have given, thank you for your time, it means a LOT!
I read that you were feeling low earlier, and hope you are feeling better.
I have little time to read, but lot of time to think, as my job requires my hands and eyes, and most of my waken hours, but leaves quite a lot of space to think still. So please forgive me if I should have been able to figure this out of my own, by studying.
I have been pondering this for a while, and can't make sense of it.
(I hope it is not stupid questions.)
Is it that the future is open, and it makes one fixed on certain outcomes that is the reason for the caution against using astrology?
If not could you please specify what the danger is?
As far as I, (and many others) have observed, Astrology "works"
If Astrology "works" how is it that it is not useful?
Is it that Astrology works, but distracts one from something?
If yes, could you please give a hint to what?
Thank you
obyvatel:
Hi Miss K,
Laura has posted some interesting material regarding the origins of astrology in
Origins of Comets = Origin of Astrology
--- Quote from: MissK ---As far as I, (and many others) have observed, Astrology "works" . If Astrology "works" how is it that it is not useful?
--- End quote ---
Can you clarify what you mean by useful - like what is it being used for?
Miss.K:
--- Quote from: obyvatel on April 15, 2012, 12:31:41 AM --- Hi Miss K,
Laura has posted some interesting material regarding the origins of astrology in
Origins of Comets = Origin of Astrology
--- Quote from: MissK ---As far as I, (and many others) have observed, Astrology "works" . If Astrology "works" how is it that it is not useful?
--- End quote ---
Can you clarify what you mean by useful - like what is it being used for?
--- End quote ---
Thank you obyvatel, I have been reading that thread, (fast) but I couldn't understand. It is on my reading list to read again, but I'm not sure if it doesn't answer my question or if I'm too dense to get it.
By useful I mean like a weather report, to know when to expect to have to put on a raincoat in order not to be wet figuratively.
I find that it (astrology) is actually quite accurate, but just a little difficult to read, as all is written in symbols, (and each symbol has several meanings) and one has to be careful not to apply wishful thinking, (but that goes with anything)
I find that it can give lots of clues as to understanding one self. It might be the mechanics of ones physical, and emotional body that one can see, but I still find that very useful to understand, as it is what one lives in, until one has risen above.
And also it shows the mechanics of the outside influences, and can give clues as to how to solve certain problems that one has.
I started studying Astrology because I figured out that I was ruled by those influences, and don't like to be ruled (at least not by such inconsiderate rulers) I thought I better study them to see if I could find a way out. I have not been able to find a way out yet, but find it very practical when I can see a certain problem I have, is mirrored (don't know if it's the right word to use) by a hard transit, that I can then see when it will be over. That way I can plan better, and it also helps me, just seeing that I'm under influence, so I don't loose my mind thinking I have gone mad.
Like knowing how hormones work, can help one coping with the emotional effect of hormones.
I also prefer to use horary astrology for asking questions to using other tools like tarot and such, as I find that the answers get clouded by my emotional state often when using cards and such; Lets say I feel very sad about something and I'm trying to find a way to get better, or where to start for best result.
When I ask the cards they will often just reply that I feel very sad, and I'll go "yes I know that, but I asked where best to start to get better"
The horary horoscope I find answers more accurately, it will perhaps answer "you feel very sad, and you won't get it the way you want, but you have best chances getting better by studying/going to see some friend/focusing on your career/etc"
So I'm thinking that either I'm delusional and see meanings where none are, if I think that Astrology works. Or it works, and if it works, I can't understand why it would not be smart to use, as it seems to me like not wanting to look at the weather report before going hiking, which I can't understand why would not be a good idea.
The C's have said something like that it is only useful if using the old astrology before Venus entered, but I can see the effect of Venus, and also big difference of influences from Virgo, Libra and Scorpio, that as far as I've understood was one sign back then, and VERY noticeable effect of the outer planets when aspecting important points in the birth chart by transit. And I guess the outer planets were not used back then, as humans hadn't discovered they were there yet.
As it is often life changing events that happen at such times, I would think that it is practical to be warned in advance as to be able to do some preparations, even if one can't know exactly how it's going to play out.
So the only thing I can think of that would make it not smart to use, would be if it somehow tricks one, and if it is the case, I want to understand how it tricks.
It puzzles me...I hope I make sense
-edit- missing word in sentence added
obyvatel:
--- Quote from: Miss.K on April 15, 2012, 01:17:19 PM ---
--- Quote from: obyvatel on April 15, 2012, 12:31:41 AM --- Hi Miss K,
Laura has posted some interesting material regarding the origins of astrology in
Origins of Comets = Origin of Astrology
--- Quote from: MissK ---As far as I, (and many others) have observed, Astrology "works" . If Astrology "works" how is it that it is not useful?
--- End quote ---
Can you clarify what you mean by useful - like what is it being used for?
--- End quote ---
Thank you obyvatel, I have been reading that thread, (fast) but I couldn't understand. It is on my reading list to read again, but I'm not sure if it doesn't answer my question or if I'm too dense to get it.
--- End quote ---
One question is does the alignment of planets at the time of birth affect characteristics of an individual? Personal horoscopes are cast based partly on planetary alignments at the time of birth.
On the linked thread above, it is said about zodiacal astrology
--- Quote --- Nevertheless, although the principal occupants of the zodiacal belt are nowadays the sun, moon and planets, there are no very strong reasons for believing that any of these bodies yet played a significant role in the supposed influence of the zodiac on the earth. Rather, these objects, which vary their stations along the ecliptic, seem to have been used more as calendrical or chronological markers, a great event in the sky being appropriated by the king (or his minions) and dated by the position of the sun and the moon and the disposition of the planets amongst the constellations. This view is supported, for example, by re-cent studies of the astronomical iconography of stelae and of kudurrus (Tuman 1986) which indicate that planets, in the first instance at least, were observed for purely calendrical purposes.
--- End quote ---
And then about horoscopic astrology
--- Quote --- The appeal to geometry by the Greeks, then, is associated with the emergence during the fourth century before Christ of a totally new form of physical astronomy now known as horoscopic astrology'. This revolutionary development was based, in fact, on the completely false premise that planets exerted a distant influence on terrestrial affairs. However, unlike either judicial or zodiacal astrology, which as we have seen might have had a proper physical basis involving a direct contact between astronomical objects and the earth, horoscopic astrology, being specifically related to an imagined, remote influence of the planets (i.e. 'action at a distance'), is entirely spurious.
A direct consequence of this new theory was that other-wise unimportant planetary conjunctions or alignments were now perceived as having great significance. Here again we are dealing with a contrived, yet false transformation of ideas, for in the original judicial astrology there is some evidence that a catastrophe was widely associated with the aftermath of a conference or gathering of the gods (Butterfield 1981). Times of acute crisis might originally have been associated quite plausibly with conjunctions of cometary bodies or extended swarms of fireballs, but the later association attributing significance to the conjunction of planets is patently absurd.
--- End quote ---
It does raise questions about some of the grounds of validity about astrology claimed in modern times regarding the antiquity of astrological practices. It does seem probable that astrology as practiced by the ancients (before advent of Greeks) may have had quite a different purpose compared to how it is used today.
--- Quote from: MissK ---By useful I mean like a weather report, to know when to expect to have to put on a raincoat in order not to be wet figuratively.
I find that it (astrology) is actually quite accurate, but just a little difficult to read, as all is written in symbols, (and each symbol has several meanings) and one has to be careful not to apply wishful thinking, (but that goes with anything)
I find that it can give lots of clues as to understanding one self. It might be the mechanics of ones physical, and emotional body that one can see, but I still find that very useful to understand, as it is what one lives in, until one has risen above.
And also it shows the mechanics of the outside influences, and can give clues as to how to solve certain problems that one has.
--- End quote ---
Wishful thinking and subjective validation are serious issues that cannot be overlooked in the context of interpreting symbols. Consider the following where the author is providing a personal character assessment
--- Quote from: David Mcraney in You Are Not So Smart ---
You have a need for other people to like and admire you, and yet you tend to be critical of yourself. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. You have considerable unused capacity that you have not turned to your advantage. Disciplined and self-controlled on the outside, you tend to be worried and insecure on the inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You also pride yourself on being an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. But you have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable and sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary and reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be rather unrealistic.
Does this sound accurate? Does it describe you?
It should. It describes everyone.
All the above statements came from a 1948 experiment by Bertram R. Forer. He gave his students a personality test and told them each one had been personally assessed, but then gave everyone the same analysis.
He asked his students to look over the statements and rate them for accuracy. On average, they rated the bogus analysis as 85% correct - as if it had been personally prepared to describe each of them. The block of text above was actually a mishmash of lines from horoscopes collected by Forer for the experiment.
--- End quote ---
There is perhaps another aspect to the practice of astrology as it is today - as with other divination tools. Some people have certain psychic abilities which amounts to seeing the unseen. When such people use certain tools to focus on getting answers to what they are trying to see, they may get results. I wonder whether this is also something worth considering in this regard - that astrology could be a tool which someone with greater than average intuitive and psychic skills can use to glean information. But I could be off on the above.
Personally, I have seen that periods of life when I have felt a need to get astrological guidance were periods where I was feeling helpless about my abilities to handle what life had thrown at me. I do not have psychic abilities - also I do not trust myself enough to avoid ego traps and subjective validations to extract any signal that may be available from an astrological reading - so I tend to avoid it.
My 2 cents fwiw
Miss.K:
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand obyvatel,
--- Quote from: obyvatel on April 16, 2012, 05:15:52 AM ---
One question is does the alignment of planets at the time of birth affect characteristics of an individual? Personal horoscopes are cast based partly on planetary alignments at the time of birth.
On the linked thread above, it is said about zodiacal astrology
--- Quote --- Nevertheless, although the principal occupants of the zodiacal belt are nowadays the sun, moon and planets, there are no very strong reasons for believing that any of these bodies yet played a significant role in the supposed influence of the zodiac on the earth. Rather, these objects, which vary their stations along the ecliptic, seem to have been used more as calendrical or chronological markers, a great event in the sky being appropriated by the king (or his minions) and dated by the position of the sun and the moon and the disposition of the planets amongst the constellations. This view is supported, for example, by re-cent studies of the astronomical iconography of stelae and of kudurrus (Tuman 1986) which indicate that planets, in the first instance at least, were observed for purely calendrical purposes.
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
If I understand right, translated to language of the simple minded, the above says that in the start, watching the movements of the sun moon and planets, was to keep track of time, but they still knew that it showed that some times are better than others, so they would let the king know so he could benefit.
Is that close or am I missing the point?
(I'm not trying to be cute here, I'm just having difficulties understanding intellectual language)
As to whether the alignment of planets at the time of birth affect characteristics of an individual. I don't know if it is so, or if an individual is somehow drawn to being born at the time where the planets tell the story of the physical and emotional make up of that individual.
But I find that the planetary positions in the birth chart does describe the characteristics of an individual.
I guess one can only find out by observing and testing, if it is so or not.
--- Quote from: obyvatel on April 16, 2012, 05:15:52 AM ---
And then about horoscopic astrology
--- Quote --- The appeal to geometry by the Greeks, then, is associated with the emergence during the fourth century before Christ of a totally new form of physical astronomy now known as horoscopic astrology'. This revolutionary development was based, in fact, on the completely false premise that planets exerted a distant influence on terrestrial affairs. However, unlike either judicial or zodiacal astrology, which as we have seen might have had a proper physical basis involving a direct contact between astronomical objects and the earth, horoscopic astrology, being specifically related to an imagined, remote influence of the planets (i.e. 'action at a distance'), is entirely spurious.
A direct consequence of this new theory was that other-wise unimportant planetary conjunctions or alignments were now perceived as having great significance. Here again we are dealing with a contrived, yet false transformation of ideas, for in the original judicial astrology there is some evidence that a catastrophe was widely associated with the aftermath of a conference or gathering of the gods (Butterfield 1981). Times of acute crisis might originally have been associated quite plausibly with conjunctions of cometary bodies or extended swarms of fireballs, but the later association attributing significance to the conjunction of planets is patently absurd.
--- End quote ---
It does raise questions about some of the grounds of validity about astrology claimed in modern times regarding the antiquity of astrological practices. It does seem probable that astrology as practiced by the ancients (before advent of Greeks) may have had quite a different purpose compared to how it is used today.
--- End quote ---
[/quote]
OK if I understand right, the above says that it is pretty ridiculous deciding that there is 360 degrees all the way around, and that dividing the 360 degrees into 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, and thinking that they have any influence on each other when being in these positions that are made up.
This I would agree completely with if it wasn't because I have noticed quite significant effects from aspects. I'd say that the conjunctions, squares and oppositions are definitely the most noticeable, but I have observed plenty effects from the minor aspects as well.
It really is not that I believe in Astrology, I have never gone to any Astro schools, (have one time attended a weekend class on how to adjust birth time, when the exact time is not known, and thought the people there, who had gone to astro schools for many years, and even the teacher, had somehow not learned how to think, and was repeating very limited interpretations)
But I don't think I'm that far, so I don't think I can do something with astrology that most people can't.
For example I remember Laura writing that she could see who the killer was by horary horoscope (it might have been in combination with dreams) and I would not at all feel confident that I would be able to do that
I have mainly learned from reading some books and then for the last ten years I've been following the movements of transits and progressions and seeing what happens in life when something happens, or having something going on in life and then checking transits and progressions to see if they tell the same story as what happens. and as said I found it uncomfortable when I first realized how ruled I was, so I have tried plenty to prove the planets wrong when they were messing with me. And totally failed to be free from their influences.
This is with my own life and horoscope, as well as friends and family, and I am yet to see a mayor aspect that doesn't have effect, or doesn't tell the story of what is happening in life.
I have been thinking a lot about why and how it can be so, and I don't know why, but I can observe that it is.
Also, as the zodiac has moved, the planets don't even sit in the places that the horoscope shows, but when I have tried to put them where they really are, the horoscope is a lot less accurate I find.
Also the taking a 3d sky, and making it into a flat 2d drawing, would make one doubt if it is really useful.
So my problem is that it seems illogical that it should work, but I see real life proof that it does work, all the time.
But that it has changed or evolved over time, isn't that only logical like any other science? (I know astrology is not a science according to most)
What I mean is that, though I would think that it would be logical to assume that it has been corrupted like anything else, that has been allowed to survive, But that it has changed and developed over time, is not proof to me that it is not useful.
Is there something I don't get that is obvious?
--- Quote from: obyvatel on April 16, 2012, 05:15:52 AM ---
Wishful thinking and subjective validation are serious issues that cannot be overlooked in the context of interpreting symbols. Consider the following where the author is providing a personal character assessment
--- Quote from: David Mcraney in You Are Not So Smart ---
You have a need for other people to like and admire you, and yet you tend to be critical of yourself. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. You have considerable unused capacity that you have not turned to your advantage. Disciplined and self-controlled on the outside, you tend to be worried and insecure on the inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You also pride yourself on being an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. But you have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable and sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary and reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be rather unrealistic.
Does this sound accurate? Does it describe you?
It should. It describes everyone.
All the above statements came from a 1948 experiment by Bertram R. Forer. He gave his students a personality test and told them each one had been personally assessed, but then gave everyone the same analysis.
He asked his students to look over the statements and rate them for accuracy. On average, they rated the bogus analysis as 85% correct - as if it had been personally prepared to describe each of them. The block of text above was actually a mishmash of lines from horoscopes collected by Forer for the experiment.
--- End quote ---
There is perhaps another aspect to the practice of astrology as it is today - as with other divination tools. Some people have certain psychic abilities which amounts to seeing the unseen. When such people use certain tools to focus on getting answers to what they are trying to see, they may get results. I wonder whether this is also something worth considering in this regard - that astrology could be a tool which someone with greater than average intuitive and psychic skills can use to glean information. But I could be off on the above.
--- End quote ---
I know about that experiment (long before I started studying astrology)
And when reading the sun sign horoscopes in the paper, or from new age type astrologers, I would agree that it is written in a similar way, + they are very square in their interpretations. Sometimes though I can use even those, because I have come to understand what aspects they talk about, so I can translate that into what it really means (as far as I know in my limited knowledge)
I do not think that I'm really doing that though, (believe in it like above experiment) as if it was so, I shouldn't have had a problem with moving the planets and axes according to the moved zodiac, because then the new interpretation would have made as much sense to me as the old one.
As another view on what the experiment is talking about, I read an astrologer who told about one client, who some years before the session had had some heavy transits over important points, and kept saying that nothing at all had happened at that time. As the astrologer kept inquiring about the the time, the client finally got really annoyed and angrily said "for gods sake nothing could have happened at that time, as I was laying in the hospital for 3 months"
So it can also happen reversed to above experiment :)
I might have some psychic abilities, I have had a few prophetic dreams, (since my progressed Sun entered my 12. house by the way)
But I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is due to that I can see the unseen that I can see things in the horoscopes. I'm not that psychic I think.
I have no control over it either. And have been known to completely miss the obvious, as well as being the one who knew what was really going on, in certain situations.
--- Quote from: obyvatel on April 16, 2012, 05:15:52 AM --- Personally, I have seen that periods of life when I have felt a need to get astrological guidance were periods where I was feeling helpless about my abilities to handle what life had thrown at me. I do not have psychic abilities - also I do not trust myself enough to avoid ego traps and subjective validations to extract any signal that may be available from an astrological reading - so I tend to avoid it.
My 2 cents fwiw
--- End quote ---
:D Personally there has been very few times in my life since around 10, where I wasn't feeling helpless about my abilities to handle what life had thrown at me.
But I'm not sure that I can find that many ego traps in my using astrology, as mostly it does not tell me what my ego wants to hear, as my ego would really rather have the whole world being in love with me and everything I wanted handed to me on a silver plate.
But the story of my life and the story of my horoscope tells the boring story of having to surrender my ego, and getting trouble for my egoism, paying for it, and getting the wonderful lesson of learning that less is more, and how was it the tarots put it lately when I wanted to hear if I would ever find a love relationship, that all I could get was "noble spiritual growth through loneliness" -ha! that really wasn't what I wanted to hear, as I am not yet at a stage where "noble" seems better that "hot love" (OK that was the cards, but the horoscope is as mean)
I think that my studying astrology has helped me accept some of my life lessons, and in understanding that we have different paths and missions, and that it is not fair, but just how it is, and a waste of time to be upset about it, but that working with the lessons does have rewards.
Of cause my ego might want to appear noble, but I don't think it cares that much about being the noble one, unless it gets a lot of praise for being so, and in the noble loneliness there is no one to praise it.
I don't want to be annoying, but I still don't see how it is not beneficial as to tool to understand one self, or certain life lessons.
Only if it doesn't work, but I really can't say it doesn't work, due to my observations. I'm not saying that it is impossible that I'm fooled here, but I have thought about the cons a lot, and tried to defy being ruled, and would even like it to not fit, as that would seem like getting a lot of free will.
But I don't want to pretend that I'm not ruled if I am, and I do think it must be the first step to breaking free to understand the prison, and as astro communities tend to be a little like religious people, I think it would be very interesting to discuss it here, and test it, but I don't want to do so, if it is not appropriate, and I would really like to understand why it isn't if it isn't.
Sorry for the length, and hope I make sense
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