Is Coffee Good or Bad for you?

Prodigal Son said:
In terms of 'buzz' and quantities of coffee, I've found that it depends on the brand/mix of coffee (at the moment I'm only on organic instant granules). Next, I'll invest in a cafetiere and grind some beans and see what happens with that. :) Learning is fun! :D
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Good point.

Just like alcohol will not necessarily give the same "buzz" (could be a "buzz", "buz", "bhuz", "bohzz" etc ;)) depending on if you drink beer, liquor, wine and what kind etc. I'm pretty sure it can apply to coffee as well (and perhaps any drug-containing preparations). I guess it's all about the chemistry of the ingested product, body chemistry and the interaction in-between both.

Interesting. Now that I think about it, I have already noticed that diffrent sources of caffeine would affect me diffrently (in equivalent doses). I used to abuse it (in the past) in the form of coffee, energy drinks, energy shots and caffeine tablets. Well whatdaya know there would all give a diffrent kind of "buzz" even though they were all, at the very base, stimulating.

Ahh, learning is fun indeed!

Peace.
 
Prodigal Son said:
andi said:
...

I don't sleep as well either as when I don't have coffee, maybe I'm having some too late (6-7pm).
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It is recommended that you drink coffee in the morning to allow the 'stimulant' effects to get through your system before you go to sleep. I usually drink it after my breakfast drink of broth, which is after my bacon or pork sausage
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Yes, morning only would be best. For me that wouldn't work either, I would still have problems sleeping and I don't make it strong. I guess I'm sensitive to this stimulant through I think with time one can get used to.
 
I was never much of a regular coffee drinker for the most part, due to my shaky adrenals (which are more chilled out now since taking on the paleo/keto diet. Often back in university I'd take some if I had an unusually late night ahead of me, or a particularly early morning.

Since I've started taking better care of myself, I prefer teas that provide a more gentle stimulant, such as Yerba Mate or Gyokuro. Gyokuro in particular I like, since it naturally has very high levels of theanine to counteract some of the edginess the caffeine brings. It can get expensive though, unfortunately. :halo:
 
I think there might be a specific genetic profile or glitch for which coffee can yield some benefits and the key might be to see what is malfunctioning in Parkinson's disease. I was doing some research about it after I met a woman where early signs manifestations of Parkinson's where suspected. As it happens, there is a functional medicine imaging tool which reveals malfunctioning way much earlier than any clear clinical manifestation of Parkinson's disease (PD). In trying to understand the pathways involved, I saw that it was the same pathways where nicotine is supposed to be useful, mainly involving the striatal pathway which has to do with a cocktail of chemicals and leads up to the release of dopamine. Here is some information about the imaging diagnostic tool:

Role of DAT-SPECT in the diagnostic work up of parkinsonism.

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17486648

The diagnosis of idiopathic Parkinson's disease (PD) can be achieved with high degrees of accuracy in cases with full expression of classical clinical features. However, diagnostic uncertainty remains in early disease with subtle or ambiguous signs. Functional imaging has been suggested to increase the diagnostic yield in parkinsonian syndromes with uncertain clinical classification. Loss of striatal dopamine nerve terminal function, a hallmark of neurodegenerative parkinsonism, is strongly related to decreases of dopamine transporter (DAT) density, which can be measured by single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT). The use of DAT-SPECT facilitates the differential diagnosis in patients with isolated tremor symptoms not fulfilling PD or essential tremor criteria, drug-induced, psychogenic and vascular parkinsonism as well as dementia when associated with parkinsonism. This review addresses the value of DAT-SPECT in early differential diagnosis, and its potential as a screening tool for subjects at risk of developing PD as well as issues around the assessment of disease progression.
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So which are the cocktail chemicals that lead up to dopamine release in the striatal pathway? Well, according to this paper:

"Multiple roles for nicotine in Parkinson’s disease"

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815339/

The basal ganglia are key in the pathogenesis of Parkinson’s disease, a movement disorder characterized by a predominant loss of nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons [1-3]. A major component of the basal ganglia is the striatum which receives projections from dopaminergic cell bodies in the substantia nigra. In addition to dopamine, the striatum contains a wide diversity of neuroactive substances including serotonin, glutamate, GABA, noradrenaline, cannabinoids, opioids, adenosine, and numerous neuropeptides, any of which may contribute to the regulation of dopaminergic activity [4-18]. Furthermore, extensive evidence shows that acetylcholine influences striatal dopamine release predominantly through an action at nAChRs [19-21], and also muscarinic receptors to a lesser extent [22-24]. These interactions of acetylcholine at the cellular level most likely have important behavioral consequences.
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Coffee benefits in Parkinson have to do with the regulation of glutamate and adenosine, and nicotine benefits have to do with its acetylcholine influence.

More than the classic movement manifestations of PD, there is also behavioral and cognitive problems involved from which people with PD have its extreme form:

SPECT Molecular Imaging in Parkinson's Disease

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321451/

Motor symptoms such as tremor at rest, akinesia, rigidity, and postural instability are the cardinal signs in PD [6]. The type and severity of symptoms experienced by a person with PD vary with each individual and the stage of the disease. PD is the most common cause of parkinsonism. There are also many nonmotor features of PD including behavioral and psychiatric problems such as dementia [7], fatigue [8], anxiety [9] and depression [10], autonomic dysfunction [11], addiction and compulsion [12], psychosis [13], olfactory dysfunction [14], and cognitive impairment [10]. These clinical features also occur in other neurodegenerative diseases and by dopamine receptor antagonist drugs, which means that with this main clinical application it is hard to diagnose patients with mild, incomplete, or uncertain parkinsonism [15]. The United Kingdom Parkinson's Disease Society Brain Bank clinical diagnostic criteria can improve diagnostic accuracy [16]; still, the diagnosis and management of PD can be a challenge.

The diagnosis of PD is based on clinical criteria, but misdiagnosis is as high as 25% of cases as confirmed by anatomic-pathologic studies. Because the diagnosis of PD is entirely clinical, the diagnosis and treatment may be delayed for years until functional disability occurs. SPECT is an aid that can help diagnosing the disease earlier.
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Neuroimaging in Parkinson’s Disease

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3075732/

Parkinson’s disease (PD) is a common disorder in which the primary features can be related to dopamine deficiency. Changes on structural imaging are limited, but a wealth of abnormalities can be detected using positron emission tomography, single photon emission computed tomography, or functional magnetic resonance imaging to detect changes in neurochemical pathology or functional connectivity. The changes detected on these studies may reflect the disease process itself and/or compensatory responses to the disease, or they may arise in association with disease- and/or treatment-related complications. This review will focus mainly on neurochemical and metabolic studies and reviews various approaches to the assessment of dopaminergic function as well as the function of other neurotransmitters that may be affected in PD. A number of clinical applications are highlighted, including diagnostic utility, identification of preclinical disease, changes associated with motor and nonmotor complications of PD, and the effects of various therapeutic interventions.

Parkinson’s disease (PD) is the second most common neurodegenerative disorder, estimated to affect 200–300 per 100,000 population. While other areas of both the central and peripheral nervous system may be affected, [1] the most important pathological finding in PD is the loss of dopaminergic neurons in the substantia nigra that project to the striatum, most often associated with cytoplasmic Lewy bodies. The symptoms of PD do not appear until approximately 50% of the nigral dopamine (DA) neurons have been lost, but the impact on routine structural imaging findings is minimal at this stage. Consequently, structural imaging has in general been unrewarding, although some newer MRI techniques, such as diffuse tensor imaging or shape analysis, are somewhat more promising. Despite the relatively limited structural changes, it is estimated that there is an approximately 80% decline of striatal DA before typical motor symptoms appear, and this has substantial functional effects on the cortical–striatal–pallidal–thalamic–cortical circuitry. PD is therefore an ideal condition for the application of functional imaging techniques, and findings from these will form the thrust of this review. These techniques may not only shed insights into PD and the basis for its complications, but they may also be useful for deriving inferences regarding the role of DA in the normal brain.
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After a review of the chemical pathways involved, the following behavioral consequences are brought up:

Cognitive and behavioral complications

Deficits in executive function are common in PD, even in the absence of dementia. Cognitive dysfunction in PD is associated with a glucose metabolic pattern of reduced activity in the frontal and parietal cortex as well as increased activity in the cerebellar vermis [104] and is independent of the PDRP described above and unresponsive to levodopa. Dementia in PD is associated with marked reductions in glucose metabolism in the occipital cortex, a pattern distinct from that seen in Alzheimer disease [105]. PD is also associated with widespread deficits in cholinergic activity, and these are more pronounced in patients with dementia, exceeding the abnormalities seen in Alzheimer disease [106]. A few studies have used 11C-labeled Pittsburgh Compound B to assess amyloid deposition in PD with dementia. For the most part, these studies suggest that amyloid deposition is increased in subjects with Lewy body dementias, but not in those with PD-dementia [107, 108]. Many investigators consider these to represent variations of the same disorder, and this distinction may accordingly be seen as somewhat surprising. Another recent study suggests that amyloid deposition in both Lewy body dementias and PD-dementia is related to expression of the ApoE4 allele [109].

Depression affects approximately 40–50% of patients with PD [110] and may antecede motor dysfunction [111, 112].
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I remember reviewing this subject years ago because it really struck a chord in me. My grandfather died of PD and I was surprised to read what Louise Hay said about it, that it was basically due to fear and controlling issues. Exactly how I felt my entire life! At that time, I was reading a book on narcissism (Dan Neuhart's "If You Had Controlling Parents") that seemed to expand on what Louise Hay was saying about fear and control in PD.

Here is what I reviewed FWIW:

A diagnosis of PD can be made when someone has at least two of the three cardinal signs — rest tremor, rigidity, and bradykinesia (abnormal slowness of movement). Tremor is present in 85% of people with true PD. The gradual onset of symptoms further supports the diagnosis. Masked facies, decreased eye blinking, stooped posture, and decreased arm swing complete the early picture. The onset may also be preceded by vague feelings of weakness and fatigue, incoordination, aching, and discomfort.

Other aspects of PD include depression and anxiety, cognitive impairment, sleep disturbances, sensory abnormalities and pain, loss of smell (anosmia), and disturbances of autonomic function which can produce diverse manifestations, including postural low blood pressure, constipation, urinary urgency and frequency, excessive sweating, and seborrhea. Some of these other aspects may be present long before the onset of movement/motor signs. The physiologic basis of the non-motor signs and symptoms are explained in part by widespread involvement of brainstem, olfactory, thalamic, and cortical structures in the brain.

Sensory symptoms most often manifest as a distressing sensation of inner restlessness presumed to be a form of akathisia (Intense anxiety at the thought of sitting down; inability to sit down). Sleep disorders are common in PD.

Changes in mood, cognition, and behavior are common accompaniments of the later stages of PD. Depression affects approximately half of patients with PD and can occur at any phase of the illness. Anxiety disorders in PD can appear in isolation or as an accompaniment of depression or progressive cognitive impairment. They can also be due to a "dopamine hunger”. Cognitive abnormalities affect many patients with PD. Most are mild to moderate in severity. Difficulties with complex tasks, long-term planning, and memorizing or retrieving new information are common. Although some of these symptoms represent bradyphrenia (the cognitive equivalent of bradykinesia, slowness of movement), it is now clear that the dysfunction also includes working memory, attention, mental flexibility, visuospatial function, word fluency, and executive functions.

In PD dopaminergic and other cells die due to a combination of factors including: (1) genetic vulnerability, (2) oxidative stress [and/or mitochondrial dysfunction] (3) proteosomal dysfunction, and (4) environmental factors.

Louise Hay says that Parkinson's disease is "Fear and an intense desire to control everything and everyone. And perhaps in relation to this, it is interesting that a study suggests that risk takers escape Parkinson's (http://www.sott.net/article/164331-Risk-takers-escape-Parkinsons). Dan Neuharth shared some insights regarding controlling issues in his book about narcissism, "Controlling Parents". He provides some insights in the human aspects of fear:

[Unfortunately, I edited this text. At that time I had the idea to change "Controlling Parents" to "controlling persons" in order to reflect that it was about the person and not about the parents. Perhaps someone has the book and can find the original quote?]

"Fear is a key commonality among controlling persons. Knowing your needs and fears will make you understand why you control, even when you are not aware that you are controlling: fear of being seen as flawed, fear of feeling powerless, fear of feeling invalidated, fear of feeling vulnerable, fear of losing emotional control.

"One of the fascinating aspects of human behavior is that it often compensates in reverse and generally without being aware of it. Someone who feels particularly small may go around acting larger than life. Someone who feels adrift in an emotional rapids may become expressionless. Someone who fears rejection may reject others first. Feeling flawed, controlling persons aimed at being perfect. Feeling small, they act big. Feeling afraid, they frighten others. Feeling bad about themselves, they shame others. Feeling wrong, they insist on being right. Feeling doubt, they confuse. Feeling deprived, they withhold.

"Unconsciously, they adopt myths about themselves: the self-made man, the perfect mom, the good provider, the in-control dad, etc. These myths give them the illusion that they are in total control of their destinies. This may explain why some of them seem disconnected from the present, often unaware of their surroundings and feelings. Living in the moment risks loss of control and lacks guarantees. Controlling persons are often unaware of why they act as they do. If they realized what lay underneath their maladaptive behavior, they'd have to face their dependency on others for their feelings of self-worth, and their desperate hunger for the symbols of success. They'd have to face the fact that they are as controlled as anyone else.

"Controlling persons rarely learned that facing their feelings or admitting their limits can be healing. Because they try to control everything, they tend to think that others are doing the same. Since most controllers want to be sure they are never dominated, they move to control first.

"In short, being a controlling person is a defensive action. A combination of factors - how the controlling person was raised, lack of knowing better, external events, internal needs, and the footprints of trauma/bad experiences, etc - leave controlling persons, unless they get help, playing out a lifelong defensive drama.

"Controlling is a futile effort to secure guarantees that they will be loved and safe rather than powerless, invalidated, or out of control. Yet it is costly because: Persons who fear being judged as flawed can never let others see them as they truly are. Persons who need to feel powerful must always be on guard against threats to their power. Persons who fear invalidation cannot tolerate questions or uncertainty. Persons who fear vulnerability view everything and everyone as potentially threatening. Persons who must avoid feeling out of control are likely to miss out on joy, spontaneity, and love.
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Well, it seems to me that it boils down to narcissism and being lost in a loop of self-reflection like Narcissus looking at his self-reflection due to a lack of a rewarding interaction with others in an open and non-fear based way that is programmed. A most destructive pattern that I believe can be broken out of.

Anyway, as for coffee, I think moderation is the key (other than an organic source ;)) and if there are signs of addiction to it, then perhaps cutting it down or stepping back as an experiment is the key.

I took one cup of black coffee sweetened with stevia this morning after working through the night. It was refreshing and relaxing and I went to bed immediately afterwards when I arrived home. I might be wrong, but I think coffee gives me an extra aid or energy for self-observation.
 
Been doing some overboard experimenting with coffee, some days up to 3-4 cups. My addictive persona definetly got the best of me on this one. When the 'OK' was sounded I remember lying in bed all electrified at the prospect of getting a coffee the next morning, and have noticed a fear of updates in this thread that would call of the experiment. In the beggining I noticed better sleeping patterns, and more regular stool. But this week I where I stepped up the intake the stool has gone total diarrhea and as exhibited in 'faltering connection' swamp post, it has increased a nervous signal from 'underneath'. I'll have to cut down; tommorow I'll do only 1 and sunday none.

I haven't yet found the scientific data I wanted to present on caffeine levels in different types of servings. But what I can gather from coffe conversation on the web is that filtered and instant serving methods are much more potent caffeine wise than your espresso/ americano. One source says between 45 and 70 mg per single shot espresso on arabica beans. And instant serving measured at 350mg. I've even heard of differences of 20 times the caffeine amount in filtered coffee.

_http://coffee.lifetips.com/faq/119150/0/does-espresso-have-more-caffeine-than-a-regular-cup-of-coffee/index.html

Also some tips for avoiding mycotoxins in the general brands:
1. Drink coffee that has been made via wet processing. Because mycotoxins often form during the drying process, wet beans are much less likely to contain them than dry beans.

2. Do not drink decaffeinated coffee. Caffeine actually protects coffee beans from the growth of mold and can prevent large amounts of mycotoxins from growing.

3. Choose arabica beans over robusta beans. Though robusta varieties do have higher levels of caffeine, they also contain more mycotoxins.

4. Consider the environment in which your beans are grown. Because mold is less apt to grow at higher elevations, buying beans that have been harvested in the mountains of Central America is a great way to decrease the amount of toxins in your coffee.

5. Stay away from blends. Though blended coffees may taste good, there really is no way of telling where the different bean varieties have come from. Try to stick to single estate products rather than the major brand names.

6. Steam is an agent that can help break down toxins, so if all else fails, order an Americano.
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_http://www.naturalnews.com/034063_mycotoxins_coffee.html
 
Re: Coffee bad aswell?

mnmulchi said:
Thanks Gandalf for mentioning Oolong tea, I just tried a plain Oolong version and enjoy it as well. It seems like a more complex tasting black tea. There are so many different teas available, it's hard to decide on which ones to try! Never having been a big tea drinker, I'm now finding I prefer the variety of tea flavors, to the taste of coffee.
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I used to be a coffee drinker and I must add that I was also a coffe lover. I tried many sorts of coffee but since I discovered the tea, I don't want to know anything about coffee.

There are so many kinds of teas (black, oolong, puerh, white, darjeeling, green) that every cup of tea is different and is a different pleasure for the mouth.

Just in the oolong family, you can taste so many different brands with such a wide variety of taste, that it is amazing !
 
An update, I invested in a 1 litre cafetiere, and today, fresh ground some organic coffee beans (strength 4), brewed, and added clotted cream in a 500ml mug - boy what a difference, it wasn't a buzz as such, more a 'take-over'. Wow, and I bought some strength 6 as well!!! Need to take this cautiously - I stopped drinking milk coffee, and then black coffee over 30 years ago! And even then, it was instant. :)
 
My report on the coffee experiment:

It's hard to tell if it was damaging in any way. What I noted was:

1) a raw feeling in my nasal passages
2) extra phelgm production
3) reduction in urine volume
4) slight weight gain but no visible swelling as on ankles
5) slight improvement in bowel frequency.
6) don't sleep as well even if only have coffee in morning
7) energy slump in afternoon that was previously absent - get very sleepy.
8) slight brain fog once in awhile.

Now, I have been taking the coffee with pure cream so much of the above COULD be related to the cream. But the reduction in urine volume, the disturbance in sleep patterns, seems to be coffee related.

I also noticed that I actually do not LIKE coffee as much as I thought I did; I like my tea better taste-wise.

So, with all of that, I am stopping coffee. I had two cups yesterday morning, but today, I just had tea though I did have it with cream. I'll do that for a few days and see what can be isolated in respect of the cream and then I'll cut even that out and go back to black tea with a quarter tsp of xylitol.

Out of the whole experiment what surprised me the most was the realization that what I remembered "loving" about coffee was obviously the "perk-up" it gave me and not the taste which is now perceived as less pleasing than tea. But clearly, that perk-up is not what it's cracked up to be since I had been going for so long now with totally steady energy and all the coffee did was give me a little buzz followed by a really unpleasant slump a few hours later. I would venture to suggest that the perk/slump thing might relate to some action on energy metabolism possibly even including insulin surges.
 
And here is my report. Although I drank it black with half a tsp. of xylitol.

I noticed:

1) a raw feeling in my nasal passages
3) reduction in urine volume
6) don't sleep as well even if only have coffee in morning
7) energy slump in afternoon that was previously absent - get very sleepy.

I also would get a pressure feeling in the back of my head and what felt very much like blood sugar fluctuations.

So, although I like the taste well enough, I don't think it's worth it. At least not often. Even if it's not the worst thing, it surely isn't beneficial. And, I also have discovered that I like tea better.
 
I also had coffee several times in the last week or so and don't like the way I feel. I had it black -- just put the finely ground coffee in a cup and poured boiling water over it. I had it in a small coffee cup that is what's used to drink "Turkish coffee." It's a very small cup. Couple of times I also had it in a tea mug the same way in the morning -- once with butter in it. (It can't be the butter because I have at least 150 grams of butter a day without any negative reactions).

I also don't sleep as well and have an energy crash in the late afternoon. I never got around to getting the thick/solid heavy cream, so it's the coffee that's feeling "off." Still love the taste. I've drank black, unsweetened filtered coffee before and I like just pouring boiling water on it better, as it's not as bitter and tastes better. But I'm going to lay off of it as I feel a low level of inflammation body-wide and low energy the second half of the day. Back to black tea.
 
Laura said:
My report on the coffee experiment:

It's hard to tell if it was damaging in any way. What I noted was:

1) a raw feeling in my nasal passages
2) extra phelgm production
3) reduction in urine volume
4) slight weight gain but no visible swelling as on ankles
5) slight improvement in bowel frequency.
6) don't sleep as well even if only have coffee in morning
7) energy slump in afternoon that was previously absent - get very sleepy.
8) slight brain fog once in awhile.
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Very interesting.

I have experimented, at least that I'm aware of 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 which have greatly diminished (7 stopped) following my great reduction of coffee consumption.

These affects are also more noticable with the change in diet which is a good thing imho. Sort of easier to listen to what your body says since you've already cut massive crap.
 
After experimenting with coffee and tea the last few weeks I find I definitely prefer tea. Coffee tastes good and gives me a little lift but I feel sluggish soon after. Not sleepy really just kind of flat.

Theanine in tea adds a bit of a mellow feeling in addition to the caffeine lift. Oolong and black tea are my favorites at this point. I have a cup just before my shift at work. It brightens me up, makes the day go more smoothly.

I don't have trouble sleeping when I coffee of tea late in the day.

Mac
 
Laura said:
My report on the coffee experiment:

It's hard to tell if it was damaging in any way. What I noted was:

1) a raw feeling in my nasal passages
2) extra phelgm production
3) reduction in urine volume
4) slight weight gain but no visible swelling as on ankles
5) slight improvement in bowel frequency.
6) don't sleep as well even if only have coffee in morning
7) energy slump in afternoon that was previously absent - get very sleepy.
8) slight brain fog once in awhile.
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Points 3 and 7, 8 I'm also experiencing. So I take coffee off and lets see what's happening.
 
After not having any in my system since yesterday morning, about 36 hours, I'm already feeling better. It was subtle, but definitely not a positive thing for me.
 
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