ETA?

[Oxajil]

Well said Carlise.

We have only been given the opportunity of accelerated learning. It's our everyday choices and commitment that really counts.

Yea. It's easy to dissociate, to wish, to constantly feel sorry, with no input on one's part. There will be little time for this if one were to work towards one's aim. That is not to say that there will be no periods of depression or sadness, by seeing more and more of the state of the world we live in, or our own state of being. The key question however in the end is; if you don't like what you see, what are you gonna do about it? As Laura once said: "If you do not see a light - YOU must become the light!". And I think it starts with working on the self, as one who has little control over oneself, little can be done. And work calls for a lot of effort, for discipline, the will to want to network, and so forth, and while this all is going on, the thought whether one goes to 4th density or not doesn't become a daily dissociation anymore. When one begins to understand one's machine, and this reality to a certain extent; the marvels of it, and the darkness of it, one can then try to live in it, and work towards getting into a position of BEing, in order to be able to be that little bit of light, for others who are in the dark and ask for help. It's certainly not easy, but atleast to me it is worth the try and effort. Fwiw.

[Average Joe]

I'm not saying I'm all done with learning, or that I'm disengaging from the world. I still have a full and busy life which will continue along its merry way.
Bring it may sound a bit cavalier, but how else are we to face the unknown. Should I wring my hands and fret about all the bad things that might happen?
Uncertainty is part and parcel of 3D. I could follow a special diet and meditate and recapitulate and still get hit by a bus next Wednesday.
My father was a chronic worrier. I remember the stacks of dried food in the garage, waiting for the day of Armageddon which never came. He spent a large part of his life worrying and preparing for some unknown catastrophe. In the end he was absolutely unprepared for his fate, which was Alzheimer's.
As much as I'm sick and tired of being in this prison, I'm still here. I look at the whole wave concept as a glimmer of hope, but I'm not counting my chickens either.
Don Juan says a warrior must face his death. I agree with that philosophy. Facing death, or any fear for that matter, is a liberating exercise. It gives us the ability to live more in the moment, rather than speculating on what might happen.

[JayMark]

I agree.  I am concerned that there is a degree of anticipation, if not desire, in some, to have hypothetical comets smash into our planet at the same time a hypothetical wave and end their misery in the hopes that they will move onto something better.

Good point here!

I think it all comes to what the intention behind that desire is. Now if you only wish, as you said, to move on so that suffering simply ends, without any form of work on your behalf, then it might simply be another case of 'wishful thinking' that could just suck you down a spiral of lies and deception. In other words, it could endanger you seriously and prevent you from gaining Truth Knowledge, which I think is the only key 'out'.

Who is to say one wouldn't return to a destroyed planet where life could be much harder than it is now?

That's a possibility. Knowledge is the key to graduation. No matter the Wave or anything that might happen, there is no shortcut or free tickets out.

Who is to say that another density won't have as much toil and suffering as the previous, if not more?  I remember how different and more difficult high school was when I first got there, even more so, college.

The way we experience lessons here in 3D is completely subjective. The more you dwell into the illusion, the harder it might be for you to 'deal with it' and ultimately gain knowledge.

Suffering is an illusion and the way we experience it is, again, completely subjective. All we experience here are part of our social memory complex and more importantly, we have chosen to be part of this. So we can't, unfortunately for some, just ignore what we have decided to experience.

Here is a nice quote from Ra:

"In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity."

We are and will be precisely where we should be, based on our level of awareness, not our hope or desire.

Remember that we have primarly chosen to be here and to experience this level of awarness. In other terms, we are navigating in an illusion that we have chosen to wander and beleive in. Now how did that happen and why? Learning about the Fall of Mankind that happend 309,000 of our years ago might help trendemously.

Wishfull thinking (perhaps what you refer to as 'hope') is one of the deadliest trap you could fall into. We can only work our way out by gaining knowledge and most importantly applying it to our life. When proper knowledge is gaind and effectively applied, suffering and deception no longer remains. Unfortunately for us, the only way to gain that form of knowledge is to experience it first because it was chosen. One can't gain knowledge about something he/she is not aware of. And here it's all about being aware of the illusion we have chosen to dwell in.

If you have seen the movie "Cube 2: Hypercube" that is exactly how the girl managed to get out. She figured out it was only an illusion.

And I can't get away without refering to the Matrix trilogy. This movie contains more Truth (symbolic) than most people could ever immagine. The quest of the One is a good picture here to look at.

I understand being sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Me too!

And I certainly can relate to hoping for a better place and time.  Not a day goes by without a melancholic desire to go "home".  But replace the comets with suicide and the wave with a intergalactic mothership and things start sounding rather familiar.

You could interpret all this as you wish but remember that it is strictly subjective.

Pain, suffering and death are only illusions. Going through the illusion and struggling with it is necessary only because that is what we chose to experience. We can't avoid what's coming. We can only change our way of interpreting it and our way of dealing with it.

My thoughts. Very interesting post that had my mind running.

Peace.

[anart]

Wishfull thinking (perhaps what you refer to as 'hope') is one of the deadliest trap you could fall into.

There is an enormous difference between wishful thinking and hope.  Hope can be fuel, whereas wishful thinking is always draining. As always, the devil is in the details.

[JayMark]

Wishfull thinking (perhaps what you refer to as 'hope') is one of the deadliest trap you could fall into.

There is an enormous difference between wishful thinking and hope.  Hope can be fuel, whereas wishful thinking is always draining. As always, the devil is in the details.

Right.

There is an enormous diffrence but the line between both is very thin in my opinion.

Hope is only a word, or like Ra would say: a "sound vibration complex". What matters here is how it interacts with you and how you interact with it (what it means to you and how you 'use it').

If you have hope but do not realise that nothing will be given to you for free, then what you think of being hope might simply be a mere illusion (wishful thinking).

So considering that, I had no way of really knowing if hope for him was a reference to what we call 'wishful thinking' or not hence my interrogative remark in-between parenthesis.

Peace.

_{This message has been sponsored by Gin&GiviTiss Formula Negative toothpaste. Use it, loose your teeth, never worry about them anymore.}

[anart]

There is an enormous diffrence but the line between both is very thin in my opinion.

Absolutely, just like the line between being awake and dreaming that you are awake.

Hope is only a word, or like Ra would say: a "sound vibration complex". What matters here is how it interacts with you and how you interact with it (what it means to you and how you 'use it').

Your clarity in the above is a little lacking.  If it is 'only a word', then how can it matter how it interacts with you and you with it? 

Personally, I think that Hope is aligned with Creation and Wishful Thinking is aligned with Entropy.  The line, as you say, is very thin and very much related to the issue of anticipation and internal consideration, which we, as human beings, have a terrible time controlling.

If you have hope but do not realise that nothing will be given to you for free, then what you think of being hope might simply be a mere illusion (wishful thinking).

So considering that, I had no way of really knowing if hope for him was a reference to what we call 'wishful thinking' or not hence my interrogative remark in-between parenthesis.

When you're writing interrogative remarks, it's helpful to be very precise with your words, which is why I pointed out the error in your statement about hope being the same as wishful thinking.  Subtle differences can define an entire experience, so it's a good exercise to try to be as precise as possible, even if that means just saying "I think" or "it's possible that" when making such statements to indicate that it's an 'open' issue.  fwiw.

[Nienna]

I'm not saying I'm all done with learning, or that I'm disengaging from the world. I still have a full and busy life which will continue along its merry way.
Bring it may sound a bit cavalier, but how else are we to face the unknown. Should I wring my hands and fret about all the bad things that might happen?
Uncertainty is part and parcel of 3D. I could follow a special diet and meditate and recapitulate and still get hit by a bus next Wednesday.
My father was a chronic worrier. I remember the stacks of dried food in the garage, waiting for the day of Armageddon which never came. He spent a large part of his life worrying and preparing for some unknown catastrophe. In the end he was absolutely unprepared for his fate, which was Alzheimer's.
As much as I'm sick and tired of being in this prison, I'm still here. I look at the whole wave concept as a glimmer of hope, but I'm not counting my chickens either.
Don Juan says a warrior must face his death. I agree with that philosophy. Facing death, or any fear for that matter, is a liberating exercise. It gives us the ability to live more in the moment, rather than speculating on what might happen.

Actually, if you are really wanting to get out of 3D, the best way is to Work on the self.  Cleaning the machine, as Gurdjieff would say.  Learning how we think, the programs we run just to keep going, etc.  Once you start on this path, it becomes something other than just wanting to get out of 3D.  Once you see that you can change for the better, start seeing things in an objective manner rather than through subjectivity, you want to continue, for you see that you can be the change that you want to see in the world.

The Secret History of the World and How to Get Out Alive, by Laura, discusses this quite clearly.  It is what the true alchemical work is all about.  It is the quest for the Holy Grail.  Just cavalierly going about our business, never questioning ourselves or why we do what we do does nothing to make us a better person, or to be able to make a better world in the future.

[Gonzo]

I think the difference between hope and a wish is that hope is passive and wishing is active.  Hope is a feeling of desire for something and faith in the possibility of it being realized while acknowledging the possibility it may not be realized.

Wishing, however, is active and seems to involve taking a feeling of desire and investing in the possibility that it will come true.  With wishing, there also seems to be a component of believing that a force of some sort, be it from within or beyond, will make it come true, therefore creating the illusion that the opposite possibility is somehow less likely than it really is.

This is why I think it makes more sense to hope for the best and plan for the worst, which validates without anticipation, the feeling of desire while acknowledging the possibility of the opposite coming true, and therefore, being prepared.

I "hope" that makes sense.

Gonzo

[Freya]

Quote from: JayMark on Yesterday at 11:57:59 PM

    Wishfull thinking (perhaps what you refer to as 'hope') is one of the deadliest trap you could fall into.

Posted by: anart
"There is an enormous difference between wishful thinking and hope.  Hope can be fuel, whereas wishful thinking is always draining. As always, the devil is in the details.

Personally, I think that Hope is aligned with Creation and Wishful Thinking is aligned with Entropy.  The line, as you say, is very thin and very much related to the issue of anticipation and internal consideration, which we, as human beings, have a terrible time controlling."

Thank you Anart, I was thinking (or so I thought I was) along those lines myself and I am very grateful to you for making such a clear and concise statement.  I do not wish to give up Hope, and I do not wish to give into Wishful Thinking, and I do not want to fall prey to the fear that I must forsake Hope in order to vanquish Wishful Thinking. 

So I go forward now with the Hope that I have enough Awareness to know the difference!! 

[Carlise]

I think the difference between hope and a wish is that hope is passive and wishing is active.  Hope is a feeling of desire for something and faith in the possibility of it being realized while acknowledging the possibility it may not be realized.

Wishing, however, is active and seems to involve taking a feeling of desire and investing in the possibility that it will come true.  With wishing, there also seems to be a component of believing that a force of some sort, be it from within or beyond, will make it come true, therefore creating the illusion that the opposite possibility is somehow less likely than it really is.

This is why I think it makes more sense to hope for the best and plan for the worst, which validates without anticipation, the feeling of desire while acknowledging the possibility of the opposite coming true, and therefore, being prepared.

I "hope" that makes sense.

Gonzo

Indeed, the line between them is very hard to see. I find that hope is more general, while wishing is more specific. For instance, I have found myself wishing that I could have a reasonable amount of money just to be comfortable and buy books/good food, donate to the forum etc. I have also caught myself wishing for an 'ideal partner' many times. These are very specific things and when in a wishful thinking mood I can actually convince myself that these things will happen. "Of course, because it's ME!".

Reminds me of the quote from 4 May 1996 session:
"A: More to the point, everybody in an STS realm views themselves as somehow "special, chosen, or protected." This is simply not so!!"

However when I instead exercise hope, all the specifics (anticipation) fly out of the window. I care less about money or romance, I just have faith that I will go where I need to go and learn everything I need to. I often flip-flop between these 2 states, but thankfully it is becoming more often the latter.

It is probably one of my most difficult obstacles yet to just sit back and realise that I am not so special and that trying to command the universe is absolutely absurd!

[Jerry]

Hope is generally defined as a confidence in the future fulfillment of a desired outcome.

When this confidence is based on unsubstantiated belief alone, actions toward fulfilling the desire are from thinking wishfully.

Yet if the confidence is the result of an objective understanding of reality, regardless of "feeling" the likelihood of an outcome, then action toward fulfillment are from thinking reasonably.

That's my understanding of it fwiw.

[JayMark]

Your clarity in the above is a little lacking.  If it is 'only a word', then how can it matter how it interacts with you and you with it? 

Well, like I said, line is very thin between hope and wishful thinking. Most people I hear talking about hope are really only talking about wishful thinking. That is why I said that ''hope is only a word''. Because some do not make the distinction between what it is and wishful thinking hence the very thin line.

The 'interaction' I was talking about was all about how you interpret it, feel it and apply it.

I am sorry if it is still unclear. Feel free to ask questions anyways.
 

Personally, I think that Hope is aligned with Creation and Wishful Thinking is aligned with Entropy.  The line, as you say, is very thin and very much related to the issue of anticipation and internal consideration, which we, as human beings, have a terrible time controlling.

Well put. I agree with that. That's a better much way to put the diffrence. One awakens, one puts to sleep. Hope for me is a feeling of confidence but confidence in myself and the efforts I put into The Work. Not confidence that I will be saved by some magic. Line is thin and that might be a reason why so many fall into the trap of wishful thinking. It is important to realise it. This form of knowledge is of primordial importance to my eyes.
 

When you're writing interrogative remarks, it's helpful to be very precise with your words, which is why I pointed out the error in your statement about hope being the same as wishful thinking.  Subtle differences can define an entire experience, so it's a good exercise to try to be as precise as possible, even if that means just saying "I think" or "it's possible that" when making such statements to indicate that it's an 'open' issue.  fwiw.

Point taken. I'll do my best but bare with me, english is not my mother tongue. Feel free to ask for precisions and clarification as required. It does not bother me. Quite the contrary actually. It is very helpful.

Peace.

[Average Joe]

Actually, if you are really wanting to get out of 3D, the best way is to Work on the self.  Cleaning the machine, as Gurdjieff would say.  Learning how we think, the programs we run just to keep going, etc.  Once you start on this path, it becomes something other than just wanting to get out of 3D.  Once you see that you can change for the better, start seeing things in an objective manner rather than through subjectivity, you want to continue, for you see that you can be the change that you want to see in the world.

The Secret History of the World and How to Get Out Alive, by Laura, discusses this quite clearly.  It is what the true alchemical work is all about.  It is the quest for the Holy Grail.  Just cavalierly going about our business, never questioning ourselves or why we do what we do does nothing to make us a better person, or to be able to make a better world in the future.

I agree completely. I've always been introspective to a certain extent, and this work has raised it to a whole new level. I am by no means done, and will continue on with an objective analysis of my life and those around me.
I was at a wedding recently which took place in a Catholic church. While I have been aware of the control aspects of organized religion for many years, I saw the event in a whole new light. The grandeur of the architecture, and the priest sitting up in front on his throne, all spoke of premeditated dominance. All the rituals and readings were designed to convey the authority of the church, even over the actual marriage itself. It all hit me like never before.
Seeing the world objectively is not for the feint of heart. I felt like a total outsider even though I was surrounded be friends. The reception was lavish, but it seemed like a big waste of money to me. I kept thinking of the institution of marriage as yet another control program. I was happy for the newlyweds yet sad at the same time.
I tried to mitigate my sense of despondency at the bar, but only succeeded in making a fool of myself. Alcohol is a form of temporary avoidance which I have used as a crutch many times. I also find large gatherings of people excessively draining, and a few drinks seems to prevent this. Of course, I usually take far too much "medicine" and regret it in the morning. I obviously need to work on a better way of coping.

[whitecoast]

I tried to mitigate my sense of despondency at
the bar, but only succeeded in making a fool of
myself. Alcohol is a form of temporary
avoidance which I have used as a crutch many
times. I also find large gatherings of people
excessively draining, and a few drinks seems to
prevent this. Of course, I usually take far too
much "medicine" and regret it in the morning. I
obviously need to work on a better way of
coping.

Have you checked out the Redirect and Adaptive Unconscious threads? They introduce some writing exercises to help reframe and reprogram our implicit outlooks to facilitate change in our behavior. It could be worth looking into.

[Buddy]

I was at a wedding recently which took place in a Catholic church. While I have been aware of the control aspects of organized religion for many years, I saw the event in a whole new light. The grandeur of the architecture, and the priest sitting up in front on his throne, all spoke of premeditated dominance. All the rituals and readings were designed to convey the authority of the church, even over the actual marriage itself.

That was like a coup for the church; a stroke of evil genius wasn't it? Usurping masterworks in the field of Aesthetics, any institution gains credibility and positive emotional 'favor' from people via simple unconscious association or a sort of transference.

It all hit me like never before. Seeing the world objectively is not for the feint of heart. I felt like a total outsider even though I was surrounded be friends. The reception was lavish, but it seemed like a big waste of money to me. I kept thinking of the institution of marriage as yet another control program. I was happy for the newlyweds yet sad at the same time.

As accompaniment to this kind of experiential knowing, I'd say mixed feelings of all kinds are quite normal.

I tried to mitigate my sense of despondency at the bar, but only succeeded in making a fool of myself. Alcohol is a form of temporary avoidance which I have used as a crutch many times. I also find large gatherings of people excessively draining, and a few drinks seems to prevent this. Of course, I usually take far too much "medicine" and regret it in the morning.

You're not alone there either. Without overstating the obvious I'll just say that at times like that, I think a constant that is present in all uses of alcohol and drugs of all kinds--even for the Rastas--is a temporary blocking or trashing of the short-term memory. From my own experience, coping does seem easier when you can keep a big picture but blur all the details so you don't feel the panic.

I obviously need to work on a better way of coping.

When I stopped alcohol and drugs, I started focusing on reverse-engineering the psychology that is being implemented everywhere. I searched for everything I could find, starting with pop psychology used in marketing. Then I looked for information about anything else--from religion to the grocery store and then went out to try and confirm it all for myself, thinking that I might write about it someday. By confirm it myself, I mean going to look; to trace the paths, to listen and to observe my own feelings in the presence of certain people and places, etc.

Today it's so easy to see so many of the tricks hiding in plain sight, that the fact these tricks are being used is no longer as distracting as it used to be. At a wedding event like you described, and while seeing the same things you see and in the same way you see them, I can focus attentively and happily on the wedding couple. I can genuinely wish them the very best and refrain from doing absolutely anything that would spoil an experience that includes me but is about them.

You will get there. Just try and let this stage pass through you whenever you fall into it while keeping your eyes wide open. The next time a situation like this gets you down, let that be a 'red alert'. Throw your attention on your external environment and start looking for clues to the 'association effect'. Re-member them later. Recreate the pattern mentally and learn it like any program. Maybe that will help.