Objective Language

Laura said:
Ya'll keep in mind the following:

2) I AM interested in linguistics and I do have a large French vocabulary, that is, I know a lot of words and what they mean, but I'll be damned if I'll contort my face and mouth or utilize phlegm in my throat as an adjunct to issue forth bizarre distortions of the sounds of perfectly good letters and syllables, or the total ignoring of entire syllables that, if one isn't supposed to pronounce them, why have them there?

That made me laugh... a LOT! Imagined Laura doing the most bizarre facial contortions!!

Laura said:
3) My interest in linguistics extends to the psychological basis of language. French is a completely sexist language - and arbitrarily sexist to boot - and that deeply offends my sensibilities. Further, French profoundly restricts efficient and precise communication not to mention deliberately obviating some ideas altogether. There are many, many things you cannot say in French because the psychology of French simply does not allow it. And I've discussed this with French individuals who are also fluent in English and who find English a more expressive and logical language. Well, duh! Much of English is derived from French with a large dose of Germanic, the addition of new terms as needed (which English welcomes and accommodates easily while French does not by law!) and the stripping away of archaicisms.

4) My experience of FRANCE (not all individual French people) has been less than happy. That tends to make me look with some disfavor on a government that has actually legislated the demand for immigrants to speak French in order to be considered human, and has passed laws such that radio stations must play a higher percentage of French music than English. Geeze, everybody knows that English and American rock 'n roll is the best!

So, while I can converse with the butcher, the dentist, the doctor, sales clerks, etc, and I certainly have a good idea of conversations around me, I have no intention of participating in something of which I heartily - and for good reasons - disapprove.

As for the rest... the connection between noun gender and sexism is most interesting, since here in Brazil, the people are REALLY sexist.

Ekios said:
Belibaste said:
You seem so convinced about your alchemical knowledge why ask the C's? Why don't you go ahead and produce gold? By the way, if you send us just a few kg of gold we might start believing your claims.

You don't have to ask the Cs, just check the wikipedia page about Rorchard test.
The guy is banned and can't answer anymore ... so ... why ?

Well, he/she can still read the forum. If his/her gigantic ego permits maybe he/she will learn something. And also for others who may stumble upon this thread in the future.



Edit=fixed quote tag
 
Laura said:
loreta said:
Really? Maybe you have never read great French writers or poets. French is very beautiful and also very complicated. Read Jean Prevert and you will see the beauty of French. :lol: Read Marguerite Yourcenar and you will learn how French can be a splendid language. :D

It COULD be a lot more splendid. Problem is, it is frozen due to the transfer of the attitude of the ancient Romans to Gaul. In order to understand this, you have to know how the Roman upper classes thought about themselves. Keep in mind, that these people were the "corporations" of the ancient world. We know a lot about them because they wrote a lot of drivel. An excerpt from some stuff I've written recently:

Quintus Aurelius Symmachus, who lived in the second half of the 4th century, was a prolific writer. Seven speeches and over 900 letters penned by him have survived. Symmachus was entirely typical of his class, based on the information gleaned from these writings. He had numerous large estates scattered across central and southern Italy, Sicily, and North Africa. Some of his friends owned estates in Spain and southern Gaul as well. All of these estates belonging to these wealthy families represent “booty” apportioned out to the supporters of the victorious wars of Imperialism over the centuries. They were shuffled around a bit due to inheritance and marriage settlements, but basically, just as in our own day and time, the wealth was just accumulated and passed around among that 1.5% of the population, including a few “new blood” types who married into the ranks.

Symmachus and his friends justified their domination of the rest of the population because they were “better” than everyone else. In certain of his letters, Symmachus refers to the Senate as “the better part of humankind” which meant, not just the wealthiest, but the best in terms of morality and virtue. This, of course, justified their claim to greater wealth: they deserved it.

How did they get to be “better” than everyone else? It was really rather simple. They had to speak the right language with the right accents and know the right authors and be able to quote them on any and every occasion. Yes, that’s a simplistic explanation, but that really is all it amounted to. To be a “virtuous man” one had to study a very small number of literary texts intensely under the guidance of an expert in the language and literary interpretation, otherwise known as a grammarian. The accepted writings were those of Vergil, Cicero, Sallust and Terence. After you had mastered that, which could take quite a few years, you then graduated to the tutelage of a rhetor who would introduce a few more texts into the mix. Texts were studied line by line and every nuance of language and meaning was examined and discussed and probably memorized. Students were assigned to write about their everyday lives in the style of the various authors studied.

The reasoning behind this education system was that these texts were held to contain the canon of correct language and children had to learn the canonical vocabulary and the complex grammar with which to use that vocabulary, as well as the appropriate situations in which the words were applicable. Symmachus and his friends made the claim that by absorbing the contents of the authors they were required to study, they became so much better than other human beings that they literally believed that no one else on the planet equaled them. They firmly believed – and passed on the belief – that Latin grammar was a tool for developing a logical, precise, mind. If you couldn’t master the language, you couldn’t say what you meant or accurately describe anything. In other words, Latin grammar was the Roman equivalent of Formal Logic.

They were also convinced that the texts they revered were the accumulation of all that was needed to know about human behavior, both good and bad, and from those texts you would learn what to do and what not to do in any given situation. This idea was actually a twist on educational philosophy that had developed in classical Greece: that by pondering on a wide range of behaviors one could develop a wide range of intellect and emotions in oneself. One could not know pity, love, hate, without being enlightened and becoming truly human under the tutelage of the Latin grammarian. Symmachus and his friends not only spoke a superior language in superior accents, by their mastery of that language, they could feel things denied to others, and express things that were unknown to the uneducated masses and barbarians.

You will have noticed, I’m sure, that the curriculum was extremely narrow and the effect of this system turned Latin into a profoundly formal and limited mode of expression. The emphasis on language and the proper accents turned Latin into a cultural vice that held the Empire in an iron grip for centuries. As soon as a Roman opened his mouth, it was obvious whether or not he belonged to the elite class. And, being a member of the elite class meant that one had the responsibility to lead, to make and impose laws, to hold high office, to set an example of correct behavior in public. You had to learn to control yourself (via learning the language perfectly) before you could attempt to control others. But once you had learned this, and could do whatever you needed to do, basically without any emotional investment, then you had the right and duty to dominate others. The bottom line was: the Roman Elite shared a privileged culture and it was their duty to stick together. By means of their exclusive education and language, they were destined to lead mankind.

I don’t know what kinds of thought you are having after reading about the Roman education system and the beliefs of its elite class, but what it immediately reminded me of was what some psychologists are calling the “socially compensated psychopath.” A study in 2001 tells us:

Psychopathy, as originally conceived by Cleckley (1941), is not limited to engagement in illegal activities, but rather encompasses such personality characteristics as manipulativeness, insincerity, egocentricity, and lack of guilt - characteristics clearly present in criminals but also in spouses, parents, bosses, attorneys, politicians, and CEOs, to name but a few. (Bursten, 1973; Stewart, 1991). Our own examination of the prevalence of psychopathy within a university population suggested that perhaps 5% or more of this sample might be deemed psychopathic, although the vast majority of those will be male (more than 1/10 males versus approximately 1/100 females).

As such, psychopathy may be characterized ... as involving a tendency towards both dominance and coldness. Wiggins (1995) in summarizing numerous previous findings... indicates that such individuals are prone to anger and irritation and are willing to exploit others. They are arrogant, manipulative, cynical, exhibitionistic, sensation -seeking, Machiavellian, vindictive, and out for their own gain. With respect to their patterns of social exchange (Foa & Foa, 1974), they attribute love and status to themselves, seeing themselves as highly worthy and important, but prescribe neither love nor status to others, seeing them as unworthy and insignificant. This characterization is clearly consistent with the essence of psychopathy as commonly described.

The present investigation sought to answer some basic questions regarding the construct of psychopathy in non forensic settings... In so doing we have returned to Cleckley's (1941) original emphasis on psychopathy as a personality style not only among criminals, but also among successful individuals within the community.

What is clear from our findings is that (a) psychopathy measures have converged on a prototype of psychopathy that involves a combination of dominant and cold interpersonal characteristics; (b) psychopathy does occur in the community and at what might be a higher than expected rate; and (c) psychopathy appears to have little overlap with personality disorders aside from Antisocial Personality Disorder. ...

Clearly, where much more work is needed is in understanding what factors differentiate the abiding (although perhaps not moral-abiding) psychopath from the law-breaking psychopath; such research surely needs to make greater use of non forensic samples than has been customary in the past. {Salekin, Trobst, Krioukova, (2001)"Construct Validity of Psychopathy in a Community Sample: A Nomological Net Approach; Journal of Personality Disorders, 15(5), pp.425-441.}

Obviously, not every member of the ancient Roman elite was a psychopath, but what seems to be suggested in considering the matters above, is that the system was designed and set up by pathological individuals, possibly schizoidal psychopaths , and strictly maintained over hundreds of years by the ruthlessness of its imposition.

This attitude was transferred to Christianity via the Catholic Church when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the empire and granted all kinds of tax breaks and loot only to those who converted. Naturally, a lot of members of the elite classes, the senatorial families, suddenly became Christians. And, as the Empire itself began to lose its grip, the senators-turned-bishops naturally took over the bureaucratic administration of local regions (often in service to barbarian overlords).

At the same time, the Church was a stairway for "social climbing" and Vulgar Latin was introduced into the mix by soldiers who climbed to the top and became the Imperial administrators and pals of military emperors. So, the elitist senatorial attitudes, Christianity, vulgar Latin, and power politics all mixed together to create France/French. It's not just a saying that France is the elder daughter of Rome. The saying usually is intended to refer to the church, but there's a lot more to it than that. And I'm sure that native French speakers will easily recognize the attitudes about "correct French" that are inculcated into them from infancy in the description of the Roman education system and their own beliefs about the superiority of their language.

Meanwhile, the article cited above notes:

our thoughts don't just shape our language. Our language may also shape our thoughts. For example, one 2009 study asked high-school students to read a passage in English, Spanish or French. English is a "natural gender" language, meaning that speakers use gender-specific pronouns, but nouns do not have gender. Spanish and French are "gendered" languages, in which nouns are assigned as masculine and feminine. In Spanish, for example "la fruita" (the fruit) is feminine, but "el dia" (daytime) is masculine.

Compared with the students who read the passages in English, those who read in gendered languages responded with higher levels of sexism to a questionnaire they took after the study. ...

On average, countries where gendered languages are spoken ranked lowest on the scale of gender equality, researchers reported in the journal Sex Roles. But surprisingly, genderless languages didn't fare as well as natural gender languages such as English (though they did fare better than gendered languages). ..."Being able to use gendered pronouns, things like 'he' or 'she,' and being able to modify the language could actually have a function," Prewitt-Freilino said.

Regarding the "shaping of thoughts", I was quite astonished to learn that in French, the word chercheur/euse can ONLY mean a professional person with higher degrees working in an institutional setting doing research, generally scientific.

In English, a researcher is "somebody who performs research, the search for knowledge or in general any systematic investigation to establish facts. Researchers can work in academic, industrial, government, or private institutions." They can be ordinary people with a passion for knowledge or someone hired to do a specific type of research and given that title, such as someone hired to do legal research for a law firm who is given instructions what to look for, put to work, and paid for being a researcher. It basically means "a digger upper of information" in a wide variety of contexts, but mostly someone who is dedicated to doing that in whatever field they have chosen.

As Ailen explains, someone like me can't attribute any real success or abilities to myself because I'll always be an amateur:

That's when it comes complicated, because you have to say "truth seeker" - "chercheur de vérité" - (and it sounds new agey or weird), or "we are a group of people who like to study different subjects" - "Nous sommes un groupe de personnes qui aimons étudier plusieurs sujets", etc.

The common options can be:
I study ("J'étudie") - and even then often people ask you where? at which university?, etc. It's like you can't be autodidactic!

Or
I am interested in ("je m'intéresse à...")

I do some research on ("je fais des recherches sur..."), NOT to be mixed up with "Je travaille dans la recherche" (which means I do official research, I'm a super duper researcher with a degree, again...)

I seem to be unable to define myself as a researcher in France because, according to French rules, I'm not and I find that insulting and offensive because I wouldn't be doing what I do if the "professionals" were doing a good job.

This is really fascinating. Thanks for all this information.

I want to specify that I don't think that French is the best language in this planet. :) I love French but I love English also, and Spanish and also Woolof and Catalan or Portuguese. Every language is beautiful for me, even more when you study a language and you can see what is invisible, and that's why thinking about the text you wrote is important to have it in mind and it is necessary (as in everything else that we are learning here) to go deeper in the study and reflection of a language. French has his limitations, and Spanish also that's why sometimes I simply invent words when I write. When I began to learn English my teacher surprised me alot when he said that there is no an Academia of English language like l'Academie Française or la Real Academia Española; that English is a language that is more adaptable to the reality of people, that English don't need laws and academicians or "experts" to put a new word in a dictionary.

Even though Britain was a cruel empire, like France or Spain. What is important is to become aware of the limitations of every language and our relation with them. And also the history of the language itself, and how every language create a modus, is part of a system. How we deal with this language, English or French altogether. The most important thing is that language gives the possibility of expression and the possibility to transcend the rigidity of the language itself.
 
Haha, I maybe understood about 4 sentences in the OP, and Lauras first comment made me giggle.

Knew I should have paid attention in French class.

That is all :)
 
quote of Ailen july 01, 2012.

."..when you have millions or dollars or tons of gold to show us, maybe we can believe that you are able to produce gold with your magic formula. Third, you are obviously the beholder of a unique secret, so I'd say it's better to keep it to yourself, just in case".


This reminds me an article that appeared in a magazine some years ago: (Testimony of the unusual. Edit. Posada, mexico, D.F.)

At the beginning of the last century, the english doctor S. M. Emmens, for several years was sold to United States government, what is considered its production of fine gold that went from 50 gr. to 5 kgr. a month. He called his gold ARGENTAURUM, becauce according to him was starting from silver to gold transform. The owner of New York Herald, James Gordon Bennet, interviewed him becauce he wanted to know to operated the modern "alchemist" and the challenge to produce gold in public. Emmens accept the demonstration, but demanded the installation of an expensive laboratory and that their experiences were reviewed by a commite of wise men.

But as no wise would make money or have some utility, or make profit with the test, how could, instead be exposed to ridicule, the operation is suspended. Dr. Emmens followed by selling gold to the government until he retired to live on their incomes.

more informations in the archives of New York Herald Tribune.

In 1924 the New York Herald merged with New York Tribune. Had an european edition: The International Herald Tribune. This edition
was acquired by the New York Times and Washington Post that continued their edition.
 
loreta said:
...
I want to specify that I don't think that French is the best language in this planet. :) I love French but I love English also, and Spanish and also Woolof and Catalan or Portuguese. Every language is beautiful for me, even more when you study a language and you can see what is invisible, and that's why thinking about the text you wrote is important to have it in mind and it is necessary (as in everything else that we are learning here) to go deeper in the study and reflection of a language. French has his limitations, and Spanish also that's why sometimes I simply invent words when I write. When I began to learn English my teacher surprised me alot when he said that there is no an Academia of English language like l'Academie Française or la Real Academia Española; that English is a language that is more adaptable to the reality of people, that English don't need laws and academicians or "experts" to put a new word in a dictionary.

Even though Britain was a cruel empire, like France or Spain. What is important is to become aware of the limitations of every language and our relation with them. And also the history of the language itself, and how every language create a modus, is part of a system. How we deal with this language, English or French altogether. The most important thing is that language gives the possibility of expression and the possibility to transcend the rigidity of the language itself.

I second you on that, Loreta. I love, more or less, every language and every people, accepting their limitations and differences or complexities. What about German, Russian, Arabic or Chinese and Japanese for instance ?
What's interesting to note, is that nowadays English replaced the role of Latin, being the NWO elite's language...
May be Esperanto could be a solution, but it looks too much like globalisation.
Diversity sounds better to me.
 
:cool2:Allow me to disagree, since :
If my memory serves me well the Lizzies once destroyed some tower destinated to help people to speak the same language
(and so unite them)
If we could truly understood each others I.guess peace would be easier. Now I just hope that this is not another naivety of mine ... be gentle ;-)
 
eoste said:
Diversity sounds better to me.

As much as I LOVE languages, I tend to disagree here. Because although you can say that each language preserves a different kind of richness, both cultural and linguistic, and even adds to it, there is something HUGE missing in most of them, and that is something that Lobaczewski described in PP:

Another defect of the natural world view is its lack of universality. In every society, a certain percentage of the people has developed a world view a good deal different from that used by the majority. The causes of the aberrations are by no means qualitatively monolithic.[...]

Another essential deficiency of the natural world view is its limited scope of applicability. Euclidean geometry would suffice for a technical reconstruction of our world and for a trip to the moon and the closest planets. We only need a geometry whose axioms are less natural if we reach inside of an atom or outside of our solar system. The average person does not encounter phenomena for which Euclidean geometry would be insufficient. Sometime during his lifetime, virtually every person is faced with problems he must deal with. Since a comprehension of the truly operational factors is beyond the ken of his natural world view, he generally relies on emotion: intuition and the pursuit of happiness. Whenever we meet a person whose individual world view developed under the influence of non-typical conditions, we tend to pass moral judgment upon him in the name of our more typical world view. In short, whenever some unidentified psychopathological factor comes into play, the natural human world view ceases to be applicable.

Moving further, we often meet with sensible people endowed with a well-developed natural world view as regards psychological, societal, and moral aspects, frequently refined via literary influences, religious deliberations, and philosophical reflections. Such persons have a pronounced tendency to overrate the values of their world view, behaving as though it were an objective basis for judging other people. They do not take into account the fact that such a system of apprehending human matters can also be erroneous, since it is insufficiently objective. Let us call such an attitude the “egotism of the natural world view”. To date, it has been the least pernicious type of egotism, being merely an overestimation of that method of comprehension containing the eternal values of human experience.

Today, however, the world is being jeopardized by a phenomenon which cannot be understood nor described by means of such a natural conceptual language; this kind of egotism thus becomes a dangerous factor stifling the possibility of objective counteractive measures. Developing and popularizing the objective psychological world view could thus significantly expand the scope of dealing with evil, via sensible action and pinpointed countermeasures.

The objective psychological language, based on mature philosophical criteria, must meet the requirements derived from its theoretical foundations, and meet the needs of individual and macrosocial practice. It should be evaluated fully on the basis of biological realities and constitute an extension of the analogous conceptual language elaborated by the older naturalistic sciences, particularly medicine. Its range of applicability should cover all those facts and phenomena conditioned upon cognizable biological factors for which this natural language has proved inadequate. It should, within this framework, allow sufficient understanding of the contents, and varied causes, for the genesis of the above-mentioned deviant world views.

Elaborating such a conceptual language, being far beyond the individual scope of any scientist, is a step-by-step affair; by means of the contribution of many researchers, it matures to the point when it could be organized under philosophical supervision in the light of above-mentioned foundations. Such a task would greatly contribute to the development of all bio-humanistic and social sciences by liberating them from the limitations and erroneous tendencies imposed by the overly great influence of the natural language of psychological imagination, especially when combined with an excessive component of egotism.

Most of the questions dealt with in this book are beyond the scope of applicability of the natural language. The fifth chapter shall deal with a macrosocial phenomenon which has rendered our traditional scientific language completely deceptive. Understanding these phenomena thus requires consistent separation from the habits of that method of thinking and the use of the most objective system of concepts possible. For this purpose, it proves necessary to develop the contents, organize them, and familiarize the readers with them as well.


In a sense, then, linguistic diversity can be another obstacle from achieving this objective language, and in spite of superficial cultural differences and ways of thinking (interesting as they are), ALL countries are ponerized to a great extent, so you could say there is only one culture: The culture of ignorance.

Thanks to Lobaczeski's work and the research done in English, the translations this network has made available, etc., this "objective language" is a bit better known and further developed, even in other languages. But still, English is the only language fairy well equipped to speak about what really is wrong with this world (because most of the research has been done IN English). Yes, it's a product of modern Imperialism, but linguistic diversity creates division and ignorance, and psychopaths have a ball with that. If all humanity spoke the same language, it might come to an understanding, or at least it would have a better chance to do so, MAYBE. So, Babel is a curse today, I think.

I still find languages fascinating, though! But I wish they were just something one could learn for fun and to further develop his/her brain capabilities and knowledge of the world, and not a limiting factor in this ponerized world where it's already hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in one language, and much more when clues are hidden in others too.
 
Laura said:
I seem to be unable to define myself as a researcher in France because, according to French rules, I'm not and I find that insulting and offensive because I wouldn't be doing what I do if the "professionals" were doing a good job.

Yeah, I learned that the hard way during the EE classes. When I told students that we were "chercheurs" working on a news site and a publishing company, and on breathing and meditation techniques, or whatever, there was always someone who asked "What degree do you have?", "Which university do you do research at?", etc. :shock: I had to ask Belibaste to clarify.

This whole business with the Roman legacy about "good speakers" is sad, indeed. And like Loreta pointed out when talking about the "academy", it is particularly marked in languages like French and Spanish. But it's worse in France, I think. Recently I also got a complaint on Pilule Rouge from a Spanish reader (from Spain) because our translation team had chosen to use Latin American Spanish (because it is the most frequently spoken one, and we try to help ALL readers understand, duh!). But that was the first one in years. Most of the time, if we get a comment like that one, it comes from French people. I've never had a Belgian or a Canadian complain, for example, even though they also speak French.

Then, there are gender differences in words that, IMO, have no business having genders. For example, the words Liberty/freedom, equality, democracy, dictatorship, etc. are all feminine in most Latin languages. I imagine that that probably does something to our brain.

What I always found quite interesting is that out of all the Latin languages, French seems to be the most egocentric one. In Spanish, for example, you can omit the subject.

e.g.Quiero= I want (the subject is optional in Spanish)
But in French, you can hardly do that, and you have to add the pronoun or name for the subject, even if it could be obvious in the sentence. That's putting too much focus on the person/subject. Well, it's more complicated than that, due to the fact that a lot conjugations in French sound the same (hence the subject helps to make the distinction, like in English). But other Latin languages don't have that, AFAIK.

There is a norm that limits people's thinking, IMO. I have lived in several cultures, but still find the French to be the worst "nitpickers", concentrating too much in the form and too little in the Truth behind what's being said. At least in my experience. Obviously, not everyone, but it's a majority, I think. The education system is so strict that everything becomes THE authority, even the French "norm". OSIT. English is much more flexible in that respect.

I struggled a lot when I first came to France (and know many foreigners who went through the same) because my accent was quite strong and my French quite basic, and lots of people made funny faces when I spoke with them, or couldn't understand. In other countries, that never happened to me. I used to think it was due to French sounds creating some sort of auditory impediment in its native speakers, but now I think it is more related to certain programmed closeness of mind. If you are not "pure" French, then it's like it's not worth talking to you. Again, it's a generalization, but still... FWIW.
 
Maybe instead of utilizing the word "chercheur" you can use "investigateur". It means the same thing but it seems more ample. Just an idea...
 
Ailén said:
eoste said:
Diversity sounds better to me.

As much as I LOVE languages, I tend to disagree here. Because although you can say that each language preserves a different kind of richness, both cultural and linguistic, and even adds to it, there is something HUGE missing in most of them, and that is something that Lobaczewski described in PP:

Another defect of the natural world view is its lack of universality. In every society, a certain percentage of the people has developed a world view a good deal different from that used by the majority. The causes of the aberrations are by no means qualitatively monolithic.[...]

Another essential deficiency of the natural world view is its limited scope of applicability. Euclidean geometry would suffice for a technical reconstruction of our world and for a trip to the moon and the closest planets. We only need a geometry whose axioms are less natural if we reach inside of an atom or outside of our solar system. The average person does not encounter phenomena for which Euclidean geometry would be insufficient. Sometime during his lifetime, virtually every person is faced with problems he must deal with. Since a comprehension of the truly operational factors is beyond the ken of his natural world view, he generally relies on emotion: intuition and the pursuit of happiness. Whenever we meet a person whose individual world view developed under the influence of non-typical conditions, we tend to pass moral judgment upon him in the name of our more typical world view. In short, whenever some unidentified psychopathological factor comes into play, the natural human world view ceases to be applicable.

Moving further, we often meet with sensible people endowed with a well-developed natural world view as regards psychological, societal, and moral aspects, frequently refined via literary influences, religious deliberations, and philosophical reflections. Such persons have a pronounced tendency to overrate the values of their world view, behaving as though it were an objective basis for judging other people. They do not take into account the fact that such a system of apprehending human matters can also be erroneous, since it is insufficiently objective. Let us call such an attitude the “egotism of the natural world view”. To date, it has been the least pernicious type of egotism, being merely an overestimation of that method of comprehension containing the eternal values of human experience.

Today, however, the world is being jeopardized by a phenomenon which cannot be understood nor described by means of such a natural conceptual language; this kind of egotism thus becomes a dangerous factor stifling the possibility of objective counteractive measures. Developing and popularizing the objective psychological world view could thus significantly expand the scope of dealing with evil, via sensible action and pinpointed countermeasures.

The objective psychological language, based on mature philosophical criteria, must meet the requirements derived from its theoretical foundations, and meet the needs of individual and macrosocial practice. It should be evaluated fully on the basis of biological realities and constitute an extension of the analogous conceptual language elaborated by the older naturalistic sciences, particularly medicine. Its range of applicability should cover all those facts and phenomena conditioned upon cognizable biological factors for which this natural language has proved inadequate. It should, within this framework, allow sufficient understanding of the contents, and varied causes, for the genesis of the above-mentioned deviant world views.

Elaborating such a conceptual language, being far beyond the individual scope of any scientist, is a step-by-step affair; by means of the contribution of many researchers, it matures to the point when it could be organized under philosophical supervision in the light of above-mentioned foundations. Such a task would greatly contribute to the development of all bio-humanistic and social sciences by liberating them from the limitations and erroneous tendencies imposed by the overly great influence of the natural language of psychological imagination, especially when combined with an excessive component of egotism.

Most of the questions dealt with in this book are beyond the scope of applicability of the natural language. The fifth chapter shall deal with a macrosocial phenomenon which has rendered our traditional scientific language completely deceptive. Understanding these phenomena thus requires consistent separation from the habits of that method of thinking and the use of the most objective system of concepts possible. For this purpose, it proves necessary to develop the contents, organize them, and familiarize the readers with them as well.


In a sense, then, linguistic diversity can be another obstacle from achieving this objective language, and in spite of superficial cultural differences and ways of thinking (interesting as they are), ALL countries are ponerized to a great extent, so you could say there is only one culture: The culture of ignorance.

Thanks to Lobaczeski's work and the research done in English, the translations this network has made available, etc., this "objective language" is a bit better known and further developed, even in other languages. But still, English is the only language fairy well equipped to speak about what really is wrong with this world (because most of the research has been done IN English). Yes, it's a product of modern Imperialism, but linguistic diversity creates division and ignorance, and psychopaths have a ball with that. If all humanity spoke the same language, it might come to an understanding, or at least it would have a better chance to do so, MAYBE. So, Babel is a curse today, I think.

I still find languages fascinating, though! But I wish they were just something one could learn for fun and to further develop his/her brain capabilities and knowledge of the world, and not a limiting factor in this ponerized world where it's already hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in one language, and much more when clues are hidden in others too.

Wow, I never paid such close attention to that portion of what L wrote in PP. It so closely parallels what Gurdjieff said about common language not being objective enough for the Work in general.
 
I seem to be unable to define myself as a researcher in France because, according to French rules, I'm not and I find that insulting and offensive because I wouldn't be doing what I do if the "professionals" were doing a good job.


It's sad but true.
Here in France, when you want to tell something, people don't listen to you first, but they want to know if you have a diploma who allows to speak.
And after, they look in detail with magnifying glass if the diploma is not a fake, because in the same time, they don't like what you say.
Meanwhile, the house is burning.

I learn so much about history here, so much than the teacher in university.
 
Ailén said:
In a sense, then, linguistic diversity can be another obstacle from achieving this objective language, and in spite of superficial cultural differences and ways of thinking (interesting as they are), ALL countries are ponerized to a great extent, so you could say there is only one culture: The culture of ignorance.

Thanks to Lobaczeski's work and the research done in English, the translations this network has made available, etc., this "objective language" is a bit better known and further developed, even in other languages. But still, English is the only language fairy well equipped to speak about what really is wrong with this world (because most of the research has been done IN English). Yes, it's a product of modern Imperialism, but linguistic diversity creates division and ignorance, and psychopaths have a ball with that. If all humanity spoke the same language, it might come to an understanding, or at least it would have a better chance to do so, MAYBE. So, Babel is a curse today, I think.

I still find languages fascinating, though! But I wish they were just something one could learn for fun and to further develop his/her brain capabilities and knowledge of the world, and not a limiting factor in this ponerized world where it's already hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in one language, and much more when clues are hidden in others too.

I live in Belgium for 8 years and I think this country is an example of Babel because there are 3 oficial languages (Dutch, French and German), this has caused a huge problem in all sectors of society to the extent that, if you live in Flanders(where people speak Dutch) and you go to Brusels or Wallonie(where people speak French) the peolple ( not everyone but a lot) do not want to speak to you, and vice versa.
You should keep in mind that Belgium is not a big country.

Despite I also like languages, I'm not studying English because I like it, but rather because through this language I could achieve mi goal which is to acquire all posible knowledge
 
Ailén said:
This whole business with the Roman legacy about "good speakers" is sad, indeed. And like Loreta pointed out when talking about the "academy", it is particularly marked in languages like French and Spanish. But it's worse in France, I think. Recently I also got a complaint on Pilule Rouge from a Spanish reader (from Spain) because our translation team had chosen to use Latin American Spanish (because it is the most frequently spoken one, and we try to help ALL readers understand, duh!). But that was the first one in years. Most of the time, if we get a comment like that one, it comes from French people. I've never had a Belgian or a Canadian complain, for example, even though they also speak French.

It's probably because we are too busy being crushed by taxes. :lol:
 
Shouldn't we split that topic into another one titled about languages ? :)
(asking for moderation on my own post here to get the attention)
 
As suggested by Ekios, in http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28270.0.html, I think this topic to be worthy of a new thread.

Such a subject can only be dealt through networking, osit.

An objective psychological language, to get beyond "the egotism of the natural world view", itself rooted in language, culture, should, imo, allow diversity, avoid being elitist, include so many parameters that I'm kind of lost...
Who's got some more clues ?

Laura said:
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus, who lived in the second half of the 4th century, was a prolific writer. Seven speeches and over 900 letters penned by him have survived. Symmachus was entirely typical of his class, based on the information gleaned from these writings. He had numerous large estates scattered across central and southern Italy, Sicily, and North Africa. Some of his friends owned estates in Spain and southern Gaul as well. All of these estates belonging to these wealthy families represent “booty” apportioned out to the supporters of the victorious wars of Imperialism over the centuries. They were shuffled around a bit due to inheritance and marriage settlements, but basically, just as in our own day and time, the wealth was just accumulated and passed around among that 1.5% of the population, including a few “new blood” types who married into the ranks.

Symmachus and his friends justified their domination of the rest of the population because they were “better” than everyone else. In certain of his letters, Symmachus refers to the Senate as “the better part of humankind” which meant, not just the wealthiest, but the best in terms of morality and virtue. This, of course, justified their claim to greater wealth: they deserved it.

How did they get to be “better” than everyone else? It was really rather simple. They had to speak the right language with the right accents and know the right authors and be able to quote them on any and every occasion. Yes, that’s a simplistic explanation, but that really is all it amounted to. To be a “virtuous man” one had to study a very small number of literary texts intensely under the guidance of an expert in the language and literary interpretation, otherwise known as a grammarian. The accepted writings were those of Vergil, Cicero, Sallust and Terence. After you had mastered that, which could take quite a few years, you then graduated to the tutelage of a rhetor who would introduce a few more texts into the mix. Texts were studied line by line and every nuance of language and meaning was examined and discussed and probably memorized. Students were assigned to write about their everyday lives in the style of the various authors studied.

The reasoning behind this education system was that these texts were held to contain the canon of correct language and children had to learn the canonical vocabulary and the complex grammar with which to use that vocabulary, as well as the appropriate situations in which the words were applicable. Symmachus and his friends made the claim that by absorbing the contents of the authors they were required to study, they became so much better than other human beings that they literally believed that no one else on the planet equaled them. They firmly believed – and passed on the belief – that Latin grammar was a tool for developing a logical, precise, mind. If you couldn’t master the language, you couldn’t say what you meant or accurately describe anything. In other words, Latin grammar was the Roman equivalent of Formal Logic.

They were also convinced that the texts they revered were the accumulation of all that was needed to know about human behavior, both good and bad, and from those texts you would learn what to do and what not to do in any given situation. This idea was actually a twist on educational philosophy that had developed in classical Greece: that by pondering on a wide range of behaviors one could develop a wide range of intellect and emotions in oneself. One could not know pity, love, hate, without being enlightened and becoming truly human under the tutelage of the Latin grammarian. Symmachus and his friends not only spoke a superior language in superior accents, by their mastery of that language, they could feel things denied to others, and express things that were unknown to the uneducated masses and barbarians.

You will have noticed, I’m sure, that the curriculum was extremely narrow and the effect of this system turned Latin into a profoundly formal and limited mode of expression. The emphasis on language and the proper accents turned Latin into a cultural vice that held the Empire in an iron grip for centuries. As soon as a Roman opened his mouth, it was obvious whether or not he belonged to the elite class. And, being a member of the elite class meant that one had the responsibility to lead, to make and impose laws, to hold high office, to set an example of correct behavior in public. You had to learn to control yourself (via learning the language perfectly) before you could attempt to control others. But once you had learned this, and could do whatever you needed to do, basically without any emotional investment, then you had the right and duty to dominate others. The bottom line was: the Roman Elite shared a privileged culture and it was their duty to stick together. By means of their exclusive education and language, they were destined to lead mankind.

I don’t know what kinds of thought you are having after reading about the Roman education system and the beliefs of its elite class, but what it immediately reminded me of was what some psychologists are calling the “socially compensated psychopath.” A study in 2001 tells us:

Psychopathy, as originally conceived by Cleckley (1941), is not limited to engagement in illegal activities, but rather encompasses such personality characteristics as manipulativeness, insincerity, egocentricity, and lack of guilt - characteristics clearly present in criminals but also in spouses, parents, bosses, attorneys, politicians, and CEOs, to name but a few. (Bursten, 1973; Stewart, 1991). Our own examination of the prevalence of psychopathy within a university population suggested that perhaps 5% or more of this sample might be deemed psychopathic, although the vast majority of those will be male (more than 1/10 males versus approximately 1/100 females).

As such, psychopathy may be characterized ... as involving a tendency towards both dominance and coldness. Wiggins (1995) in summarizing numerous previous findings... indicates that such individuals are prone to anger and irritation and are willing to exploit others. They are arrogant, manipulative, cynical, exhibitionistic, sensation -seeking, Machiavellian, vindictive, and out for their own gain. With respect to their patterns of social exchange (Foa & Foa, 1974), they attribute love and status to themselves, seeing themselves as highly worthy and important, but prescribe neither love nor status to others, seeing them as unworthy and insignificant. This characterization is clearly consistent with the essence of psychopathy as commonly described.

The present investigation sought to answer some basic questions regarding the construct of psychopathy in non forensic settings... In so doing we have returned to Cleckley's (1941) original emphasis on psychopathy as a personality style not only among criminals, but also among successful individuals within the community.

What is clear from our findings is that (a) psychopathy measures have converged on a prototype of psychopathy that involves a combination of dominant and cold interpersonal characteristics; (b) psychopathy does occur in the community and at what might be a higher than expected rate; and (c) psychopathy appears to have little overlap with personality disorders aside from Antisocial Personality Disorder. ...

Clearly, where much more work is needed is in understanding what factors differentiate the abiding (although perhaps not moral-abiding) psychopath from the law-breaking psychopath; such research surely needs to make greater use of non forensic samples than has been customary in the past. {Salekin, Trobst, Krioukova, (2001)"Construct Validity of Psychopathy in a Community Sample: A Nomological Net Approach; Journal of Personality Disorders, 15(5), pp.425-441.}

Obviously, not every member of the ancient Roman elite was a psychopath, but what seems to be suggested in considering the matters above, is that the system was designed and set up by pathological individuals, possibly schizoidal psychopaths , and strictly maintained over hundreds of years by the ruthlessness of its imposition.

This attitude was transferred to Christianity via the Catholic Church when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the empire and granted all kinds of tax breaks and loot only to those who converted. Naturally, a lot of members of the elite classes, the senatorial families, suddenly became Christians. And, as the Empire itself began to lose its grip, the senators-turned-bishops naturally took over the bureaucratic administration of local regions (often in service to barbarian overlords).

At the same time, the Church was a stairway for "social climbing" and Vulgar Latin was introduced into the mix by soldiers who climbed to the top and became the Imperial administrators and pals of military emperors. So, the elitist senatorial attitudes, Christianity, vulgar Latin, and power politics all mixed together to create France/French. It's not just a saying that France is the elder daughter of Rome. The saying usually is intended to refer to the church, but there's a lot more to it than that. And I'm sure that native French speakers will easily recognize the attitudes about "correct French" that are inculcated into them from infancy in the description of the Roman education system and their own beliefs about the superiority of their language.

Meanwhile, the article cited above notes:

our thoughts don't just shape our language. Our language may also shape our thoughts. For example, one 2009 study asked high-school students to read a passage in English, Spanish or French. English is a "natural gender" language, meaning that speakers use gender-specific pronouns, but nouns do not have gender. Spanish and French are "gendered" languages, in which nouns are assigned as masculine and feminine. In Spanish, for example "la fruita" (the fruit) is feminine, but "el dia" (daytime) is masculine.

Compared with the students who read the passages in English, those who read in gendered languages responded with higher levels of sexism to a questionnaire they took after the study. ...

On average, countries where gendered languages are spoken ranked lowest on the scale of gender equality, researchers reported in the journal Sex Roles. But surprisingly, genderless languages didn't fare as well as natural gender languages such as English (though they did fare better than gendered languages). ..."Being able to use gendered pronouns, things like 'he' or 'she,' and being able to modify the language could actually have a function," Prewitt-Freilino said.

Ailén said:
... although you can say that each language preserves a different kind of richness, both cultural and linguistic, and even adds to it, there is something HUGE missing in most of them, and that is something that Lobaczewski described in PP:

Another defect of the natural world view is its lack of universality. In every society, a certain percentage of the people has developed a world view a good deal different from that used by the majority. The causes of the aberrations are by no means qualitatively monolithic.[...]

Another essential deficiency of the natural world view is its limited scope of applicability. Euclidean geometry would suffice for a technical reconstruction of our world and for a trip to the moon and the closest planets. We only need a geometry whose axioms are less natural if we reach inside of an atom or outside of our solar system. The average person does not encounter phenomena for which Euclidean geometry would be insufficient. Sometime during his lifetime, virtually every person is faced with problems he must deal with. Since a comprehension of the truly operational factors is beyond the ken of his natural world view, he generally relies on emotion: intuition and the pursuit of happiness. Whenever we meet a person whose individual world view developed under the influence of non-typical conditions, we tend to pass moral judgment upon him in the name of our more typical world view. In short, whenever some unidentified psychopathological factor comes into play, the natural human world view ceases to be applicable.

Moving further, we often meet with sensible people endowed with a well-developed natural world view as regards psychological, societal, and moral aspects, frequently refined via literary influences, religious deliberations, and philosophical reflections. Such persons have a pronounced tendency to overrate the values of their world view, behaving as though it were an objective basis for judging other people. They do not take into account the fact that such a system of apprehending human matters can also be erroneous, since it is insufficiently objective. Let us call such an attitude the “egotism of the natural world view”. To date, it has been the least pernicious type of egotism, being merely an overestimation of that method of comprehension containing the eternal values of human experience.

Today, however, the world is being jeopardized by a phenomenon which cannot be understood nor described by means of such a natural conceptual language; this kind of egotism thus becomes a dangerous factor stifling the possibility of objective counteractive measures. Developing and popularizing the objective psychological world view could thus significantly expand the scope of dealing with evil, via sensible action and pinpointed countermeasures.

The objective psychological language, based on mature philosophical criteria, must meet the requirements derived from its theoretical foundations, and meet the needs of individual and macrosocial practice. It should be evaluated fully on the basis of biological realities and constitute an extension of the analogous conceptual language elaborated by the older naturalistic sciences, particularly medicine. Its range of applicability should cover all those facts and phenomena conditioned upon cognizable biological factors for which this natural language has proved inadequate. It should, within this framework, allow sufficient understanding of the contents, and varied causes, for the genesis of the above-mentioned deviant world views.

Elaborating such a conceptual language, being far beyond the individual scope of any scientist, is a step-by-step affair; by means of the contribution of many researchers, it matures to the point when it could be organized under philosophical supervision in the light of above-mentioned foundations. Such a task would greatly contribute to the development of all bio-humanistic and social sciences by liberating them from the limitations and erroneous tendencies imposed by the overly great influence of the natural language of psychological imagination, especially when combined with an excessive component of egotism.

Most of the questions dealt with in this book are beyond the scope of applicability of the natural language. The fifth chapter shall deal with a macrosocial phenomenon which has rendered our traditional scientific language completely deceptive. Understanding these phenomena thus requires consistent separation from the habits of that method of thinking and the use of the most objective system of concepts possible. For this purpose, it proves necessary to develop the contents, organize them, and familiarize the readers with them as well.

SeekinTruth said:
Wow, I never paid such close attention to that portion of what L wrote in PP. It so closely parallels what Gurdjieff said about common language not being objective enough for the Work in general.
 

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