Learning and growth

[Ana]

Hi and welcome celestialvisionz 

If you want to, we recommend new members to post an intro in the Newbies section telling a bit about themselves, you can see how others did it there.

[un chien anadolu]

Hi celestialvisionz, welcome to the forum.

I think it might be different for all people on how they might grow, For me I learn  all the time by teaching myself, if I never taught myself anything I would know pretty much half of what is known now, experience is a form of growth also, Look at laura all she does is READ and I really do find that to be her source of growth, as mine.

You're talking about learning. Then comes knowing, understanding and practising (utilizing), respectively.  Since we are not a single objective being in ourselves, but rather a collection of many mechanical little 'I''s  and buffers and programs. It's not likely that one can succeed in the latter 3, especially 2 (understanding and practising) without the help of a teacher and support of a network.

Of course one's own will, intent and hard work play a major role for all of these.

[celestialvision z]

You're talking about learning. Then comes knowing, understanding and practising (utilizing), respectively.  Since we are not a single objective being in ourselves, but rather a collection of many mechanical little 'I''s  and buffers and programs. It's not likely that one can succeed in the latter 3, especially 2 (understanding and practising) without the help of a teacher and support of a network.

Of course one's own will, intent and hard work play a major role for all of these.

HI hi* I agree with you un chien anadolu~ except for the latter of your paragraph where you stated '' Since we are not a single objective being in ourselves, but rather a collection of many mechanical little 'I''s  and buffers and programs''- Yes some of us have these things in us but I dont think it identifies who we are- I guess it depends on how much of it controls us too?.
Also where you stated" It's not likely that one can succeed in the latter 3, especially 2 (understanding and practising) without the help of a teacher and support of a network.''

This is a very general statement because not everyone is the same. But honestly I dont know you could be right or wrong or NEITHER. 
I do think that though possibly there has been people out there in the world in the distant past or not so distant that have probably NOT had the help of a teacher or support network but have still had the chance to learn- grow- UTILIZE to some extent.

[un chien anadolu]

HI hi* I agree with you un chien anadolu~ except for the latter of your paragraph where you stated '' Since we are not a single objective being in ourselves, but rather a collection of many mechanical little 'I''s  and buffers and programs''- Yes some of us have these things in us but I dont think it identifies who we are- I guess it depends on how much of it controls us too?.

Well, no offense but exactly because of the buffers and programs that i mentioned it is quite normal that someone encounter to this fact would deny it and think that it doesn't apply to him/herself, but only to some people.

This is a very general statement because not everyone is the same. But honestly I dont know you could be right or wrong or NEITHER. 
I do think that though possibly there has been people out there in the world in the distant past or not so distant that have probably NOT had the help of a teacher or support network but have still had the chance to learn- grow- UTILIZE to some extent.

This is a subjective statement, when you say 'i do think that though possibly there has been people out there in the world.
Of course people may have some progress on inner growth and understanding the external world merely by their own efforts, but without a guidance and a network they can only obtain (if they are lucky) some blurry parts of the big picture.

[Carlise]

You're talking about learning. Then comes knowing, understanding and practising (utilizing), respectively.  Since we are not a single objective being in ourselves, but rather a collection of many mechanical little 'I''s  and buffers and programs. It's not likely that one can succeed in the latter 3, especially 2 (understanding and practising) without the help of a teacher and support of a network.

Of course one's own will, intent and hard work play a major role for all of these.

HI hi* I agree with you un chien anadolu~ except for the latter of your paragraph where you stated '' Since we are not a single objective being in ourselves, but rather a collection of many mechanical little 'I''s  and buffers and programs''- Yes some of us have these things in us but I dont think it identifies who we are- I guess it depends on how much of it controls us too?.
Also where you stated" It's not likely that one can succeed in the latter 3, especially 2 (understanding and practising) without the help of a teacher and support of a network.''

This is a very general statement because not everyone is the same. But honestly I dont know you could be right or wrong or NEITHER. 
I do think that though possibly there has been people out there in the world in the distant past or not so distant that have probably NOT had the help of a teacher or support network but have still had the chance to learn- grow- UTILIZE to some extent.

How much of the recommended material have you read so far? You seem to be employing wishful thinking. Buffers, programs and mechanicalness is exactly who, or what we are, until we understand this and make conscious efforts against it.

Only when you can glimpse the true horror of our situation objectively, can you begin to do something about it and begin the work of becoming conscious. Until then, we go in circles, fooling ourselves into believing that we are growing and learning.

Without a teacher(s) to guide us, we stand no chance. Without a network to mirror us and share knowledge, we also stand no chance. If you think otherwise, you are fooling yourself. How can one person alone gather and assimilate all of the knowledge that this network provides freely? How can a lone wolf increase their polarisation towards STO?

And don't forget that in creating all that we see here, Laura had the ultimate teacher in the form of the Cassiopaean communications. We simply cannot escape prison without the help of those who have done so before. The good news is that there is always help if we look hard enough, and fulfill our end of the bargain, so to speak.

[celestialvision z]

Honestly I am not of all the all knowing so I really can not say that all people are is buffers and I's ect. All I know is the glimpses I have experienced throughout my life which is all subjective to interpretation. I know that books have helped me immensely throughout my life for with out them I dont think I would have grown as much as I have now. Now this might just be me thinking wishfully that I have grown but no its not that at all, everything I read and come in contact with affects me in some way whether it be mental, physical, emotional, spiritual. Math for instance is something that is learned that teachers have taught in books. Teachers are books they are in books everywhere throughout this world. There are so many things people can learn from a book, well for me atleast that is what I have experienced. The book for instance , The holographic Universe taught me alot too. I dont get what you guys/girls mean when you say that no one can learn from books and you can only learn from teachers , when books are written by teachers and some of the best teachers at that. I have been into the Cassiopaean transcripts for awhile now they have definately taught me so much ,I think its one of the best sources of truth out there for some reason. I could be wrong but all I know is I try not to attach my self to one idea by saying something CAN NOT BE DONE THIS WAY OR THAT because then I truly think it will only stunt my growth.

[anart]

I dont get what you guys/girls mean when you say that no one can learn from books and you can only learn from teachers

No one said that.

Read the Wave Series - not just the transcripts - and you'll understand what people are trying to communicate to you.

[celestialvision z]

Yes that is on my To Do list* Thanks!* And thank You everyone for all the INFO*

[Buddy]

There are so many things people can learn from a book, well for me atleast that is what I have experienced. The book for instance , The holographic Universe taught me alot too. I dont get what you guys/girls mean when you say that no one can learn from books and you can only learn from teachers , when books are written by teachers and some of the best teachers at that.

The way I understand "no one can learn from books" is that 'learn' in this context refers to knowing with the whole self. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing we can experientially know, is that which is assimilated into our being. Everything else is just conversation. Unless I'm wrong, of course.

And I also recommend reading the Wave.

[Nienna]

I dont get what you guys/girls mean when you say that no one can learn from books and you can only learn from teachers , when books are written by teachers and some of the best teachers at that.

I think that what people are trying to point out is that you cannot learn about yourself just from reading books.  You may be able to see the top layer of quite obvious things.  But the deeper issues are hidden from us by those very same programs/Is that make up our personality.  Only by listening to teachers and others who have already seen these programs in themselves, know what they look like and can spot them in others and can then show them for what they are to others.  That's why networking is what is needed to truly see ourselves as we really are.

I agree with anart, reading the Wave, as you said you were going to do, is really helpful to explain this.  Without the knowledge of where we are coming from, it is hard to understand what we are trying to tell you.

[Menna]

I think you can learn and grow SOME by reading and experiences. But the work isn't about progressing alittle or climbing up one rung on the ladder and in order to improve yourself and progress a good amount in the work you need others to point out what you are doing right or wrong, give you different perspectives, point out where to turn for the right information. I think you are arguing that you can learn and grow through reading and I think you are right but only to a certain point.

Do you know the difference between an A-B-C influence can you give a real life example of what A influences is and B influence is? Can you feel when your being has increased if you look back over your years?

And this argument is really futile because you are right to a certain extend but I think the bigger picture is....Im sure all of us here want to progress in the most efficient and painless manner and without a teacher your growth progress will not be as efficient as if you had one and you will make mistakes that could be avoided if you had a network/teacher (this is fact). I don't think anyone wants to grow a little

[Sirius]

One of the things he mentions is that you cannot teach yourself, that you can only learn ultimately from someone who's above you.

In my opinion, putting someone "above" you is no different than putting a person on a pedestal.

Then you completely misunderstand the point.  Have you read any Gurdjieff?

The error is in “putting” anyone or anything above you. It is not about following. The point is that there are always things and people above you. There is no need to artificially create an order which already exists (as in organised religion). As anart said, external input is a requirement. Otherwise, one would stay trapped and stagnated in one's subjective cage. The matter in hand has been utterly skewed. Especially ISOTM aims at explaining principles and concepts.

I think it might be different for all people on how they might grow, For me I learn  all the time by teaching myself, if I never taught myself anything I would know pretty much half of what is known now, experience is a form of growth also, Look at laura all she does is READ and I really do find that to be her source of growth, as mine.

But what's your point? These are merely individual habits. Do you think each individual possesses an entirely differently-working brain hence?

I dont get what you guys/girls mean when you say that no one can learn from books and you can only learn from teachers , when books are written by teachers and some of the best teachers at that.

I think that what people are trying to point out is that you cannot learn about yourself just from reading books.  You may be able to see the top layer of quite obvious things.  But the deeper issues are hidden from us by those very same programs/Is that make up our personality.  Only by listening to teachers and others who have already seen these programs in themselves, know what they look like and can spot them in others and can then show them for what they are to others.  That's why networking is what is needed to truly see ourselves as we really are.

Imagine you have to interpret some literature. Of course, it's quite easy to put a subjective interpretation upon it. But there are usually quite different and much more advanced objective, “real” interpretations out there comprising experts' consensus. Learning must not be confused with mere entertainment.

[celestialvision z]

One of the things he mentions is that you cannot teach yourself, that you can only learn ultimately from someone who's above you.

In my opinion, putting someone "above" you is no different than putting a person on a pedestal.

 

What they mean by above you, is that they think the person knows more than you, and that you could potentially learn from that person, there is nothing wrong with that, some people ARE  better than other people at things, it sucks for all those that want to be the BEST and arent but I think its true. All people are not created equal no, but they should be treated equally:

I think it might be different for all people on how they might grow, For me I learn  all the time by teaching myself, if I never taught myself anything I would know pretty much half of what is known now, experience is a form of growth also, Look at laura all she does is READ and I really do find that to be her source of growth, as mine.

But what's your point? These are merely individual habits. Do you think each individual possesses an entirely differently-working brain hence?

HUH? My point being is that every single individual is different in how their soul, brain mechanisms, and bodily funtions work and are.  Being that everyone being different in these ways and probably more experience and grow at different levels. So depending on the individuals state of being would determine the processes of how that person can learn. I do not think there is a ONE method treatment for every single person out there that can perscribe them to grow, but I am not saying its impossible . Is that what you meant?.

I dont get what you guys/girls mean when you say that no one can learn from books and you can only learn from teachers , when books are written by teachers and some of the best teachers at that.

I think that what people are trying to point out is that you cannot learn about yourself just from reading books.  You may be able to see the top layer of quite obvious things.  But the deeper issues are hidden from us by those very same programs/Is that make up our personality.  Only by listening to teachers and others who have already seen these programs in themselves, know what they look like and can spot them in others and can then show them for what they are to others.  That's why networking is what is needed to truly see ourselves as we really are.

Yes, I know that you cannot just learn from yourself by only reading books, well actually I dont know but I did not speak entirely upon what was in my head the other day because I was alittle loopy from not going to sleep. Sorry everyone I will try to be more specifiably and speak truly more often. I do think that person(s) are capable themselves throughout life to identify problems they have, personality programs whatsoever it may be if they care enough they will find a way. Yes teachers and networking are a great help I would never deny that ever.

Imagine you have to interpret some literature. Of course, it's quite easy to put a subjective interpretation upon it. But there are usually quite different and much more advanced objective, “real” interpretations out there comprising experts' consensus. Learning must not be confused with mere entertainment.

Yes there are experts out there that do have a lot of knowledge and their advice might be the most real at the time, but ten years goes by and this other expert finds proof that totality opposes the truth of the first expert. This has been going on for hundreds of years back and forth. it seems to be that no one really knows much.  SO its hard to say whats the best, maybe all of them are once unified in a collective way.

I think you can learn and grow SOME by reading and experiences. But the work isn't about progressing alittle or climbing up one rung on the ladder and in order to improve yourself and progress a good amount in the work you need others to point out what you are doing right or wrong, give you different perspectives, point out where to turn for the right information. I think you are arguing that you can learn and grow through reading and I think you are right but only to a certain point.

Yes depending on the individual saying this individual learns best by reading, that individual would do well in learning by reading?, but yes I agree some people learn differently and not JUST through reading. That is my faults I should of specified more clearly before.

Do you know the difference between an A-B-C influence can you give a real life example of what A influences is and B influence is? Can you feel when your being has increased if you look back over your years?

I have NO clue what your meaning by A-B-C influence? or what you mean by when you say what A influences is and B influences is? You got me curious. Would you elaborate by defining'' A and B influences'' in different words? Or explain what you meant? and YES I feel and think that I HAVE learned alot over the years. I can feel that my being increases everytime I read knowledge. But that is just what I think about it I do not really know.

And this argument is really futile because you are right to a certain extend but I think the bigger picture is....Im sure all of us here want to progress in the most efficient and painless manner and without a teacher your growth progress will not be as efficient as if you had one and you will make mistakes that could be avoided if you had a network/teacher (this is fact). I don't think anyone wants to grow a little

Correcto Mundo!

[Alana]

celestialvisionz, I fixed the quote boxes in your message above, but also deleted the color pink from your fonts, because it was very light it was making it very difficult to read on the screen. If you want to use colored fonts, blue, purple and red are best, but old common black is fine too.

[Menna]

Sounds like you enjoy reading... Pick up ISOTM (In Search of the Miraculous)... This will explain what A,B,C influences are and alot more and will give you a foundation for "The Work."

A rough outline of what they are from my understanding (Someone of higher knowledge correct me if im wrong would like to nail this concept down as well)

A influences - One example is a commercial on TV... If you are watching TV and a McDonalds commercial comes on and you start to get hungry and get in your car drive to the closest McDonalds and eat a hamburger these actions, your decision to do this was based on an A influence. These influences will not help you with your growth and development and will keep you in the inner circle   

B Influences - You can get these from books such as reading the wave, ISOTM or psychology books that provide you with information/knowledge to protect yourself and make you more aware. Reading the WAVE and ISOTM are great ways to receiving B Influences. These will help you with your growth and development. Give you a chance to move to the outer circle of development

C Influences - Information passed down from the source. Examples are the C's or Jesus. These will help you with your growth and development. Information from outside the circles of development

Now with the information I have provided and the information in the Wave and ISOTM you will have new knowledge but knowledge has to be assimilated and that comes from experiences and perspectives and changing the way you think (increasing your being) asking questions and networking receiving information from someone who has been there before you someone who knows. If you want to do this on your own ok over the next 20 years you might make some progress some painful progress which is the point I think you were trying to make that you can still make progress. Sure that is one way but I don't recommend it.

Now when you are able to come in contact with C influences and B Influences you have a greater chance of breaking free of Universal laws and developing esoterically becoming man number 3 or 4 or 5 and so on I believe there are 7. (Another concept you can learn about in ISOTM)