Fear Of The Abyss - Aleta Edwards

Jones said:

I wonder if fantasizing actually makes PCS people feel uneasy? Just curious because of my reaction to it.

Click to expand...

I have used fantasy as a coping mechanism from early childhood to get a temporary reprieve from a highly unhealthy emotional environment. I do not think it was positive dissociation because the fantasy material was inevitably contaminated with the emotional issues I faced. It was better than reality since I controlled the parameters of the fantasy. Yet I could not break free of reality completely even in fantasy. Fantasy just motivated me to be stronger and bear the burden of reality better - as I imagined being a better, stronger, more skillful machine than I was in real life. There was little if any transformative factor involved though. A sense of unease remained - since the elusive perfection was unattainable even in imagination.

Obyvatel said:

Fantasy just motivated me to be stronger and bear the burden of reality better - as I imagined being a better, stronger, more skillful machine than I was in real life. There was little if any transformative factor involved though. A sense of unease remained - since the elusive perfection was unattainable even in imagination.

Click to expand...

Yes, that seems to be a much clearer statement of what I was touching on.

So I guess that one wouldn't necessarily need to be PCS in order to feel the unease from non transformative fantasy. Non transformative fantasy is probably about hoping you can change the world around you and of course you can't so I can see that in a black and white kind of way PCS people might write fantasy off all together.

I just finished this book. I can really see that I have been avoiding my Abyss for much of my life. It likely started as a way of defending myself against my parents own insecurities. Black and white thinking, afraid to be wrong. Feeling that everything I do is inadequate.

Reading this book called to mind a dream I had long ago. It is very dark, I am hanging by my fingers on the side of cliff. Terrified of falling into darkness below, crying for help. Out of the darkness comes a voice, "Just step down." Tentatively, I stretch my foot downward. Just below where I have been hanging in fear there is a ledge, a path, wide enough to stand and walk on.

When we allow ourselves to look at our own abyss perhaps it's not as fearsome as we expect. It's just a matter of admitting that we are not perfect, that there are shades of meaning in everything. I got the feeling from this book: I have a lot of work to do, but I'm ok, I can handle it if I persist.

Mac

Mac said:

When we allow ourselves to look at our own abyss perhaps it's not as fearsome as we expect. It's just a matter of admitting that we are not perfect, that there are shades of meaning in everything. I got the feeling from this book: I have a lot of work to do, but I'm ok, I can handle it if I persist.

Click to expand...

Yes, acknowledging ourselves as we are, and not as "we" imagine ourselves to be, but this is only the beginning. It is a beginning, but just getting there is a trial in and of itself, but once you "move there," there is a sense of relief and many things become clearer than they had been before at least for me it has. It is only the beginning though, many miles to go, one cautious step at a time and I have found that with every step, my confidence, faith and hope grows.

Ibn al 'Arabi said:

So preserve yourselves, my brothers, from the calamities of this place, for distinguishing it is extremely difficult! Souls find it sweet, and then within it they are duped, since they become completely enamored of it.

Click to expand...

Data said:

Thank you so much for posting this, obyvatel. The excerpts describe my inner state very accurately, only I couldn't put my feelings in words before. This book is a must-read for me.

Click to expand...

Same here. Thanks a lot, obyvatel, I need to read this book.

Serendipity said:

I was in my house in the hallway. Then I became aware I'm dreaming and thought that the paralysis experience might still be in progress.
What happened then is,I was standing in the hallway and in front of me was tall dark figure pointing his forefinger towards me as if he was giving me orders.
I feared to look at him for some reason, but somehow I got strength to look at his face and I saw he has my face,it was me!
Only his eyes were very negative,like glowing with hate. There were all possible negative emotions in his eyes,not to mention the feeling I got from him.It was like he radiated negativity.

Click to expand...

Really interesting dream, and I too think it fits with this theme. When I read obyvatel's excerpts, the first thing that popped into my mind was how, quite some time ago, I replied to the question of my therapist, who asked me what it is that I fear: I couldn't really say much, except to describe the somewhat blurry internal image-sensate of fearing to be swallowed up by a huge dark something. Since then I've often seen how seeing parts of my machine, in connection with the blurry somewhat mysterious concepts/images of the 'alien installation of the predator', can easily fuel this subjective pit in that I easily identify with the emotional reactions to what I'm seeing about myself, because it's tightly entangled with that core fear. What's really been beginning to shed light (and fear) for me is reading about cognitive science, i.e. having something at hand that's more exact vs. handling blurry esoteric terms. Or rather, I think that having the science down first of all builds the basis for working with esoteric terms to begin with.

Thanks for posting about this book Obyvatel. When you first posted this I couldn't see that this book could have much to do with me. You recomended it to me in a swamp post and I still couldn't really see what it's relevance was, despite the keywords perfectionism and shame are some I've identified as being general issues. But I guess the not seeing it's relevance relates to control, fear of actually spotting or identifying the abyss. Funny how that blinder worked, seeing that other proposed psychology revealing material have been immediately apparent to be of direct relevance.

When I first started reading it immediately became clear how I've been utterly controlled and inhibited by early ideas (yes, this should have been appearant by now, but this unlocked a vision of it). It inspired a sight of how controling the idea of 'the abyss' is in most moves I make. I had an immediate clearing and had a few days where I moved much less constricted in expression and movement. It's leveled out by now but has definitly freed up energetic suck towards imaginary abyss running.

There were some interesting perspectives from basic psychology, such as the binary decision making of the child, as in Kleins model of the child splitting. When mothers don't meet the childs needs, the kid has to split the bad mother (later the world) into a fantasy outlet to maintain the caregiver as overall good. The next natural step would then be integrating that no one is perfect and can integrate or atone to 'the good enough mother' (growing out of BlackWhite thinking), which as Edwards also states, is a stage many PCS'ers are stuck in by trying to make reparations to the imagined damage of splitting (rescuer/saviour syndrome).

Another new for me perspective was the PCS'ers tendency to deny constructive fantasy, which is certainly true for me. My first inner narrative to fantasy use is that I use it to see reality, but that's an obvious compensation. The term fantasy has a lot of obvious and objective connotations to dreaming and unreality, but it's context in the book gave a view that it also can be used to imagine and see- letting new stuff or alternative solutions in. I can allow myself to fantasy (or imagination) in creative project settings, but in social settings and general problem solving it's amiss. This points to the element of control and having fought the abyss so much that I've become it, in so many ways. Again, seeing the mechanism has freed up avenues of expression, but certainly something to work on.

Also I found the presented developmental model of Erikson, a nice simple overview to trace what Edward calls 'spokes on a wheel' growth from a central idea about the world.

1. Basic Trust vs. Mistrust - Birth to one and a half
2. Autonomy vs. Shame and Doubt - 1 to 3
3. Initiative vs. Guilt - 3 to 6
4. Industry vs. Inferiority - 6 to 12
5. Identity vs. Confusion - 12 to 20
6. Intimacy vs. Isolation - Young Adulthood
7. Generativity vs. Stagnation - Middle Age
8. Integrity vs. Despair - Older Adulthood to Death

Click to expand...

It's a simple and shorter read but took me a long time to get through, part of my narrative for that is it had (for me) unappealing repetition and necessary corrections to match the larger psychological picture that we are privy to on Cass forums. But I think the perspective of PCS goes hand in hand with understanding of narcissism, it at least filled in a lot of blanks I didn't get from the Big 5, which may pertain to my reading, timing or her language. But nevertheless I think PCS is an important perspective which could be a prevalent issue for many truth seekers.

This seems to be the first book I've found which really hits the nail on the head with the long-standing problems I have. Other books have addressed one or several aspects, but without, it seems, really getting to the heart of the matter.

About a third through the book as of now.

My mind is generally filled with pressures and counter-pressures. A highly intricate system of assumptions and beliefs has built up, black-or-white in nature, and filled with contradictions. There are fears related to seeing myself as imperfect - defective - in various ways, or of becoming "evil" and causing harm. On top of this there has formed a wide-ranging system of coping mechanisms, driven by imaginings and magical thinking. Compulsive attempts to control myself, my situation in life and the Universe, and becoming able to feel that I'm doing "well".

Thus far, working through the ideas in the book is increasing self-acceptance. When the pressure of fears is reduced, so is the counter-pressure of control/"coping". At present, it still all comes and goes, rather than there being a clearly lasting improvement, but it seems on the whole to hold more promise than most psychological work I've done in the past. Though progress also builds on what I've done in the past.

Unlike, perhaps, most PCS people (I fit the full list of traits that at one point the author presents), I seem to have ended up basing my control and perfectionism to a large extent on an idiosyncratic, internal system of judgment, rather than on more conventional external standards.

Thus, instead of being driven towards exterior "success" (as defined by others), as often happens with PCS people, I've been strongly driven towards a constantly shifting, ever-morphing inner "dream" of success. One which does not match reality. As such, I've done a lot of work ever since these traits became full-blown, but little of it has contributed towards a responsible life. It has rather contributed towards the idiosyncratic illusion of the moment of what would lead to "success".

Ironically, I found myself at first hesitating in buying this book, fearing making a mistake, almost as if I would be horribly damned if I didn't spend every resource - time, money, etc. - perfectly. (A general pattern.) And rigidly thinking I had enough books piled up to read already, so adding more began to seem out of the question. And finally, a rigid dislike of relying on e-books, thinking it "wrong" to buy them.

In hindsight, the reasons for my hesitation pointed further to the need for this book.

parallel said:

I think the perspective of PCS goes hand in hand with understanding of narcissism, it at least filled in a lot of blanks I didn't get from the Big 5, which may pertain to my reading, timing or her language. But nevertheless I think PCS is an important perspective which could be a prevalent issue for many truth seekers.

Click to expand...

Likewise. Currently halfway through, the change in perspective reminds me, in degree, of the large change that came about in reading The Wave. I'm beginning to see my whole life differently in light of what I can recognize. No other psychology book has touched me quite so deeply. It's like forming a central structure into which much else I've read in e.g. the Big Five fits - alone those books didn't make for "getting it".

Dealing with all the black-or-white thinking, the rigid ideals, and the fears, will likely be ongoing for quite a while - my whole life has formed around it. I've begun to see how, in my teens, I escaped from people - and from fears relating to myself - and from life in general, into rigid ideas, perfectionism, and unrealistic fantasies. I isolated myself through my projects - my technological dreams - and later fit my studies into this structure.

And so, I struggled against my basic nature. I denied the natural curiosity and interest in people I had once had. Substituting for understanding and participation in the human world, a world of impersonal ideals and concepts which I grew strongly identified with. This has shaped the direction of my life - and at this point in time, options have been narrowed down - and I am left with more to do in this latter realm I entered; but I can still free myself from the fearful recoiling from and denial of humanity that I have lived with for so long, and strive to better understand the human world. And, hopefully, come to really participate in it.

Thanks, obyvatel, for posting about the book.

I'd just like to thank everyone for their detailed feedback on this book, and obyvatel for alerting us to it. I think this is the book I most need to read now, and the thread and what you all have been sharing has given me the push to go ahead and buy it.

As a note, since something went wrong with installing the PC Kindle reader, I went to this link and purchased the PDF directly at Aleta Edward's website: _http://www.aletaedwards.com/order-my-book.html

Going to start reading the book now.

Psalehesost said:

Ironically, I found myself at first hesitating in buying this book, fearing making a mistake, almost as if I would be horribly damned if I didn't spend every resource - time, money, etc. - perfectly. (A general pattern.) And rigidly thinking I had enough books piled up to read already, so adding more began to seem out of the question. And finally, a rigid dislike of relying on e-books, thinking it "wrong" to buy them.

In hindsight, the reasons for my hesitation pointed further to the need for this book.

parallel said:

I think the perspective of PCS goes hand in hand with understanding of narcissism, it at least filled in a lot of blanks I didn't get from the Big 5, which may pertain to my reading, timing or her language. But nevertheless I think PCS is an important perspective which could be a prevalent issue for many truth seekers.

Click to expand...

Likewise. Currently halfway through, the change in perspective reminds me, in degree, of the large change that came about in reading The Wave. I'm beginning to see my whole life differently in light of what I can recognize. No other psychology book has touched me quite so deeply. It's like forming a central structure into which much else I've read in e.g. the Big Five fits - alone those books didn't make for "getting it".

Dealing with all the black-or-white thinking, the rigid ideals, and the fears, will likely be ongoing for quite a while - my whole life has formed around it. I've begun to see how, in my teens, I escaped from people - and from fears relating to myself - and from life in general, into rigid ideas, perfectionism, and unrealistic fantasies. I isolated myself through my projects - my technological dreams - and later fit my studies into this structure.

And so, I struggled against my basic nature. I denied the natural curiosity and interest in people I had once had. Substituting for understanding and participation in the human world, a world of impersonal ideals and concepts which I grew strongly identified with. This has shaped the direction of my life - and at this point in time, options have been narrowed down - and I am left with more to do in this latter realm I entered; but I can still free myself from the fearful recoiling from and denial of humanity that I have lived with for so long, and strive to better understand the human world. And, hopefully, come to really participate in it.

Thanks, obyvatel, for posting about the book.

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting about this book obyvatel - I knew there was something wrong with me

Kidding aside, what everyone has written here resonated deeply - much appreciated. Earlier last year whilst studying Psychology, I began wondering about my intense anxiety issues & withdrawal from others, not speaking around others for fear any word I said wouldn't be the right one, fear of making mistakes/not getting desired results - trying to control [what you wrote Psalehesost about spending every resource perfectly...same issue here]/covering up messy feelings with escapism & bad habits, ever-seeking a cure.
Everything had to be how I thought it should be, black-and-white thinking. With perseverance to this end, the 'perfect' desired results would magically come to fruition against all odds.

By & large internal considering. I bought an app titled AnxietyNoMore by Paul David which included his book "At Last a Life" & can be found here on his website. He draws from his experience of anxiety for 10 years.

Whilst there is some useful information in there, for it did help me to make changes, PCS constellation-related dynamics weren't directly covered. Upon spotting the mention of this book, although I was planning on putting the money elsewhere, then reading the synopsis & the excerpts here, I bought it for Kindle pretty fast.

Curious to see how this book will compare to David's "At Last a Life".

If the change bought about by this book is comparable to the change bought about by The Wave then I'm in for a ride.

While not belonging to the book, this poem by Emily Dickinson captures the "abyss" and the trauma surrounding it pretty well imo.

[quote author=Emily Dickinson]
There is a pain—so utter—
It swallows being up—
Then covers the abyss with trance—
So memory can step
Around—across—upon it—
As one in a swoon—
Goes steady—where an open eye—
Would drop him—bone by bone
[/quote]

obyvatel said:

While not belonging to the book, this poem by Emily Dickinson captures the "abyss" and the trauma surrounding it pretty well imo.

[quote author=Emily Dickinson]
There is a pain—so utter—
It swallows being up—
Then covers the abyss with trance—
So memory can step
Around—across—upon it—
As one in a swoon—
Goes steady—where an open eye—
Would drop him—bone by bone

Click to expand...

[/quote]

It does really convey how the abyss feels, at least to me.

A big thank you from me too Obyvatel! :) I just received the PDF version and am looking forward to reading, all other reading aside because this feels like vital information for me as well as the exercises. I found the link in the Splitting thread which as most helpful.

obyvatel said:

Jones said:

I wonder if fantasizing actually makes PCS people feel uneasy? Just curious because of my reaction to it.

Click to expand...

I have used fantasy as a coping mechanism from early childhood to get a temporary reprieve from a highly unhealthy emotional environment. I do not think it was positive dissociation because the fantasy material was inevitably contaminated with the emotional issues I faced. It was better than reality since I controlled the parameters of the fantasy. Yet I could not break free of reality completely even in fantasy. Fantasy just motivated me to be stronger and bear the burden of reality better - as I imagined being a better, stronger, more skillful machine than I was in real life. There was little if any transformative factor involved though. A sense of unease remained - since the elusive perfection was unattainable even in imagination.

Click to expand...

Many thanks obyvatel for this thread! I haven't read the book, but I'm really looking forward to the Sott Radio show this Sunday showcasing this book and hearing the author explain this topic in detail, it's going to be good.

I quoted your above reply because It resonated so deeply with my own experience. The way you conveyed your experience of the fantasy aspect was so elegantly and precisely written, it just blew me away. When I was younger fantasizing was a great release from the harshness of life. You convey it so clearly here, everything I could have never, ever have put into words myself - the expressions of how the fantasy process effected me, the release but the non-relief. Thank you!

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum, and I joined so that I could read this discussion about Dr. Edwards' book, and listen to her radio show today. It was so wonderful hearing her voice, and hearing her respond to the hosts' excellent questions. Did anyone else who participates in this forum listen? And if so what were your thoughts? I particularly enjoyed Dr. Edwards' discussion of the usefulness of fantasy, and I know that was the last-discussed item from the book.

-Light