Men and Woman in France or Why French Men Make Lousy Lovers

[Hithere]

And French politicians can seem to be caught up in age old chauvinism, at least judging from the video clip here:

_http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2012/07/17/cecile-duflot-huee-a-assemblee-nationale_n_1680136.html

[Kios]

And French politicians can seem to be caught up in age old chauvinism, at least judging from the video clip here:

_http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2012/07/17/cecile-duflot-huee-a-assemblee-nationale_n_1680136.html

I would have said an "ICE age old chauvinism" ... I don't know a lot about how it is abroad but when it comes about that matter, we must be with the worst countries ... we are sexist like hell, a true catastrophe.

[Kios]

Felt on that video this morning, it is in French since it is about a woman equipped with a hidden camera while she walks in Bruxelle, it shows the reality of being a young woman, the daily sexism, the terrible withdraw of women's rights  : _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10CmYkIaRik

"Funny" thing is, that video started a polemic, because during it, one can see that most, if not all, the "disgusting guys" seemed to be originating from the Maghreb and now here they are focusing on that matter.

If a few people want a translation of the video, just ask, I'll do it.

[Tigersoap]

Felt on that video this morning, it is in French since it is about a woman equipped with a hidden camera while she walks in Bruxelle, it shows the reality of being a young woman, the daily sexism, the terrible withdraw of women's rights  : _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10CmYkIaRik

Yes it's true that in certain well known areas of Brussels this will happen.
But that's not Brussels as a whole, which seems to be forgotten in the video.

I'd like to point out that she must have known that if she went there by herself she would attract such comments.
Sadly it's the world we're living in and it does not make it ok at all but I can't help to think that it's disingenuous.
You don't go in these areas if you don't want to be harassed, simple street-wise knowledge.

And don't think because you're a man you won't get problems either, especially if you don't look like you belong to the area.

I don't think any woman walking alone in Paris' banlieues (the equivalent for the Brussels area talked about in the video) would not have the same kind of comments at some point ?

There is a willing focus from some of the political parties in Brussels to focus on the Arabic population as a problematic community, which is in part true to some extent but I can't forget that most problems these areas encounter were created or fostered on purpose to focus the attention away from what's going on in Belgium.

People will ask for a stronger police force and tougher laws...

[Mrs. Tigersoap]

Yes, French Sott carried the article :

http://fr.sott.net/articles/show/8850-Elle-filme-les-insultes-machistes-ordinaires

As Tigersoap was saying, this is a very specific and problematic area of Brussels (the Anneesens/Lemonnier/gare du Midi area), and most everyone knows it is dangerous. It's full of shady shops and people: this is the area of 'saunas' (brothels), where you can find anything on the 'black market', this is where female and male hookers hustle on every corner... It is NOT your normal neighbourhood at all. Not only for women but for anyone: a Turkish male friend was mugged there several times, Tigersoap, a girlfriend and I were mugged there. I used to work in the area and I was once followed by a guy who was marsturbating and asking me to show him my breasts - it was noon and full of people. And for the record, the guy was white and Flemish-speaking. I specify this because there are a lot of immigrants living there (some good people, some not so much, as everywhere) and the movie seems to focus on them solely. This is very interesting because these areas and populations are the very ones targeted by the Flemish right-wing political parties in their campaigns and the movie is now of course on VRT, the Flemish right-wing TV channel.

The article carried by SOTT also says that the lady (Sofie Peeters) will change areas (sad but true, she should have never moved in the area in the first place) whereas the movie says that she will leave Brussels altogether. I notice that a lot of Flemish people see Brussels as a cut-throat town where they will get mugged and raped at every corner. This is propaganda by the Flemish media. Brussels is no more no less dangerous than any big city. Just as everywhere, you need to be a bit streetwise and know which areas to avoid. In my 20 years living in this city, I've been mugged once and followed once, in both cases in that very area. I wish that, as a woman, I could go anywhere as I please and not get harrassed, that's true. But that's unfortunately not the world we are living in. And that's certainly not going to happen in that area of Brussels any time soon.

[Kios]

Felt on that video this morning, it is in French since it is about a woman equipped with a hidden camera while she walks in Bruxelle, it shows the reality of being a young woman, the daily sexism, the terrible withdraw of women's rights  : _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10CmYkIaRik

Yes it's true that in certain well known areas of Brussels this will happen.
But that's not Brussels as a whole, which seems to be forgotten in the video.

I'd like to point out that she must have known that if she went there by herself she would attract such comments.
Sadly it's the world we're living in and it does not make it ok at all but I can't help to think that it's disingenuous.
You don't go in these areas if you don't want to be harassed, simple street-wise knowledge.

Well, I've never heard about that "in Bruxelles" since this morning. I've been probably spared if I can use that terminology. I only went once in Bruxelles and it was in 2001 I think, just a quick one afternoon touristic passage, in other words I don't know anything at all about that city, but I always had a "clean & calm" picture of it

And don't think because you're a man you won't get problems either, especially if you don't look like you belong to the area.

Well now that you made me make the parallel with Paris banlieues, I can only agree with that statement

I don't think any woman walking alone in Paris' banlieues (the equivalent for the Brussels area talked about in the video) would not have the same kind of comments at some point ?

There is a willing focus from some of the political parties in Brussels to focus on the Arabic population as a problematic community, which is in part true to some extent but I can't forget that most problems these areas encounter were created or fostered on purpose to focus the attention away from what's going on in Belgium.

People will ask for a stronger police force and tougher laws...

Yep, a-bso-lu-tely correct.

"another comment was posted while writing this"

Yes, French Sott carried the article :

http://fr.sott.net/articles/show/8850-Elle-filme-les-insultes-machistes-ordinaires

Wasn't aware of that, I only follow the english one which is already giving my google reader more than a hundred of news a day, I have a hard time to follows

(mais oui, je vais le lire dès que j'aurais posté ça/but yes i'm going to read it as soon as I posted that comment)

As Tigersoap was saying, this is a very specific and problematic area of Brussels (the Anneesens/Lemonnier/gare du Midi area), and most everyone knows it is dangerous. It's full of shady shops and people: this is the area of 'saunas' (brothels), where you can find anything on the 'black market', this is where female and male hookers hustle on every corner... It is NOT your normal neighbourhood at all. Not only for women but for anyone: a Turkish male friend was mugged there several times, Tigersoap, a girlfriend and I were mugged there. I used to work in the area and I was once followed by a guy who was marsturbating and asking me to show him my breasts - it was noon and full of people. And for the record, the guy was white and Flemish-speaking. I specify this because there are a lot of immigrants living there (some good people, some not so much, as everywhere) and the movie seems to focus on them solely. This is very interesting because these areas and populations are the very ones targeted by the Flemish right-wing political parties in their campaigns and the movie is now of course on VRT, the Flemish right-wing TV channel.

That confirms even more what Tigersoap  said indeed.

The article carried by SOTT also says that the lady (Sofie Peeters) will change areas (sad but true, she should have never moved in the area in the first place) whereas the movie says that she will leave Brussels altogether. I notice that a lot of Flemish people see Brussels as a cut-throat town where they will get mugged and raped at every corner. This is propaganda by the Flemish media. Brussels is no more no less dangerous than any big city. Just as everywhere, you need to be a bit streetwise and know which areas to avoid. In my 20 years living in this city, I've been mugged once and followed once, in both cases in that very area. I wish that, as a woman, I could go anywhere as I please and not get harrassed, that's true. But that's unfortunately not the world we are living in. And that's certainly not going to happen in that area of Brussels any time soon.

Yes, saddly ...

Now as I said before, I will sleep less dumb tonight, because if I had to go to Paris I would have been cautious since I know "how it can be" there. But at Bruxelles ? Well considering what I learned, I would have been there with a target on my back**.

(**I don't know how to say that in english -> j'y serais allé de façon beaucoup plus pépère)

Edit : typos

[Belibaste]

is it only the french that don't stand any fair critic ?

Generally, I think that the French reject critic (fair or unfair) more than others. One fundamental reason is that, in France accepting a critic is acknowledging that you're wrong and in France you can not be wrong.

For years, the education and cultural system have programmed the French kids to be right: have the right answer, have the academic knowledge, have the perfect mark... And that's serious programming that starts at 2 or 3 y.o. and repeats every day.

Failure (being wrong) is not a possibility since it means being judged (by teachers, peers and family), rejected and ultimately not being loved (what the French crave for and never really got). Being right is being loved.

This obligation to be right is so strong in this country that it even superseded Truth. Thus a lot of French (in particular the Parisian elites and the likes) have developed tremendous oratory, logical, rhetorical skills in order to end up being right (being loved) even if what they claim is not true.

Now critic made against France by foreigners triggers something else in the French: their strong identification to their country. Why are the French so identified to France? My guess is that as children they were prevented from developing a true self, self-confidence, tolerance because of an individualistic and competitive educational system that is based on negative reinforcement (sanctions) and only spares the best, the most obedient, the most analytical ones.

Devoid of their true being and of self-confidence the French had to find substitutes. One of this substitutes is appearances. Overcompensating their fears, their uneasiness, their sadness they became master at creating positive appearances (speech, clothes, attitudes...) to hide a desperate inner being. They are not happy or peaceful but, at least they look like they are.

Another substitute is the nation. Unable to feel genuine self-confidence, they overcompensate and hide their fear in an exaggerated pride for their country (chauvinism). In their childhood French kids have been brainwashed to follow rules, to pursue the same goal, to speak and think the same way to share the same values while any creativity, difference, emotion was being repressed. This leads to adults exhibiting very strong conformity and power distance (respect for authority) while being devoid from genuine personality, personal goals. Thus, the self worth of the French lies in their country, any critic against their country is viscerally perceived as a personal critic. Hence the negative reactions.

Interestingly not only the French consider France as a great country, a lot of foreigners (particularly the ones who don't know France very well) share this opinion. Several causes can explain this wrong perception.  First, the French are so convinced that their country is the greatest that they sometimes manage to convince others, second the French are so good at appearances (VS being) that they created very beautiful things (building, monuments, etc.), third centuries ago France was a leading empire and might still  benefit from this aura (Stockholm syndrom that you can notice in some ex French colonies), fourth the landscape in France is exceptional and surely gives a very good impression to people who only see France through sightseeing and/or pictures.

Now, the French react even more negatively to critics against their country when they come from foreigners. As mentioned above France exhibits one of the highest conformity level amongst all nations. So, the foreigners (even when they don't criticize) are a living threat against the very foundation of the French mentality. The French conforms to a very specific set of values (the French culture), this values define how the French speak, do and perceive themselves. By definition a foreigner has a different culture, a different set of values, he is a living proof (especially if he is happy) that the French culture is not at all the best, that there are many other ways of living a good life.

If this is true, then the French have sacrificed their true self, their dreams, their hopes, their feelings to a culture that was not even better than other ones. It's a double loss, they didn't reach this cultural excellence they were promised and they lost their true self on the way.

An apparent paradox of the French is their strong power distance / conformity and their apparent tendency to rebel. Well, again the chasm lies between the fundamentals and the appearances. Indeed in appearances the French are rebels, immediately one can think of resistance during WWII, the 1789 revolution, the frequent demonstration, the tax evasion, the sexual freedom.

But when you scratch beyond the surface you see that during WWII most French were not in the resistance and a majority was collaborating with the Nazi regime. Same for the French Revolution were a handful of Parisian elites that established a regime (the terror) that was worse than the previous ones, demonstration are part of the French culture, participating to them is conforming to this culture, it's not rebelling especially when demonstration are about petty problems and don't lead to any concrete improvement.

The same applies to tax evasion. Sure a  a lot of them cheats on income tax but most of the tax load comes from other taxes. 70% of the salaries are taxed, VAT is almost 20%. Alcohol, fuel, cigarettes reach up to 80% tax. By cheating a little bit on income tax the French maintain the appearance, the illusion that their are independent, rebels, free thinkers while the Truth is that they pay a lot of taxes. Meanwhile the elites, the ones who make them pay heavily, pay almost no tax (the average tax rate for the 40 biggest French companies is 8%!)

Now, sex in France is an interesting topic. In France having a mistress/lover is considered as positive. Going to swingers night club is considered as positive too. There are porn movie on the main cable channel, naked women on magazines, beaches, ads. The French call it "sexual liberation". But is it true? If you think about it by promoting all this free sex thing, the French again chose the appearances (pleasure) while sacrificing the substance (true love). The same way they chose the appearance of being right while sacrificing the substance of approaching the Truth. The same way the chose they appearance of being beautiful (clothes, perfumes, cosmetics, attitudes...) while sacrificing the substance of being beautiful inside (peaceful, confident, empathic...)

[Maat]

For the anecdote, my parents just went back from a trip in USA, that was the first time they go there. My mother spontanouesly told me that what surprised her the most was how Americans are very helpful because several times they were lost and once they had a technical problem with their car and before to have to ask some help, there were already people who offers their help first.

Well it happens to me to be lost in Paris (as a good provincial) and frankly I feel more like how to find my way meanwhile avoiding all these buzzy people so that they don't impact me !
OK I don't like Paris anyway, it's too much for me, too much noise, too much people... but I have a hard time to imagine the same behavior here that my parents experienced in the big cities of USA, proof is they were surprised !

So, tell me about fratherhood !!

[Mrs. Tigersoap]

Apparently, someone else is sharing our opinion about Sofie Peeters' video being biased:

http://fr.sott.net/articles/show/8945-Injures-de-rue-a-Bruxelles-lettre-ouverte-a-Sofie-Peeters

[cholas]

Thanks for your prose, Belibaste. Very educational.

I've been observing the odd 'customs' of the local population in the area where we live(I as a foreigner). Some of them, such as completely disrespectful driving, just boggles the mind.

Much of this behavior sure seems like deeply ingrained cultural programming coupled with a total lack of awareness. Not sure many really try to be disrespectful. I blame the rest on the incredible amount of coca-cola consumed.

Maat, I can certainly relate to your family's experience. I take it that the setting was not Detroit(or nearly any large city). In some areas though, people appear to be truly genuine in helping others.

[eoste]

Thanks for your prose, Belibaste. Very educational.

I've been observing the odd 'customs' of the local population in the area where we live(I as a foreigner). Some of them, such as completely disrespectful driving, just boggles the mind.

Much of this behavior sure seems like deeply ingrained cultural programming coupled with a total lack of awareness. Not sure many really try to be disrespectful. I blame the rest on the incredible amount of coca-cola consumed.

Maat, I can certainly relate to your family's experience. I take it that the setting was not Detroit(or nearly any large city). In some areas though, people appear to be truly genuine in helping others.

Everything is so relative !
 
Where I'm living in France most people are kind, respectful (even when driving), have a lot of awareness (and don't drink coca-cola)...

There are foreigners who are a real danger on the roads though. Many of them show a behavior full of disdain, really not sympathetic at all. What boggles the mind is that they seem to come from another planet. May be one where they drink coca-cola ?

 

[Kios]

I think something interesting have been said here : living in a big town or being in a more "rural" area can give a really different experience in a country.

I become utterly nuts when people talks about Paris as it is "France" in its whole while I know from experience that Paris is an island in the middle of a country ...

[domi]

Not only for women but for anyone: a Turkish male friend was mugged there several times, Tigersoap, a girlfriend and I were mugged there. I used to work in the area and I was once followed by a guy who was marsturbating and asking me to show him my breasts - it was noon and full of people. And for the record, the guy was white and Flemish-speaking. I specify this because there are a lot of immigrants living there (some good people, some not so much, as everywhere) and the movie seems to focus on them solely. This is very interesting because these areas and populations are the very ones targeted by the Flemish right-wing political parties in their campaigns and the movie is now of course on VRT, the Flemish right-wing TV channel.

I find the last sentence very interesting as a Flemish expat (gone since 99).
Are you serious when you call VRT the Flemish right-wing TV channel?

I notice that a lot of Flemish people see Brussels as a cut-throat town where they will get mugged and raped at every corner.

This seems like an exaggeration. I used to be one of those Flemish people (lived in Ixelles/Elsene) and I certainly didn't think that.
Yes, there were certain neighborhoods that I stayed away from when I lived there but that was common knowledge.

This is propaganda by the Flemish media.

Yes, I did see some propaganda overtones while I was there but nothing like what you're describing.
Things may have changed though in the last decade or so.

Brussels is no more no less dangerous than any big city.

Agreed.
To be honest, I'd be much less comfortable walking around in certain parts of Liege or Antwerpen than Brussels.
I'm just glad the access to guns is not like it is in the U.S at all.

Just as everywhere, you need to be a bit streetwise and know which areas to avoid.

Indeed.

The whole Flemish/Walloon/Brussels dynamic would be a great topic for its own separate thread.

[Mrs. Tigersoap]

Hi Domi,

I came to live in Brussels in 1994 after having spent 17 years living in a commune à facilité (town where everyone has a right to speak their own language i.e. French or Flemish and where administration, facilities, etc. function bilingually). Before arriving in Brussels, I had never encountered any shred of nationalism from a Flemish person, despite being with Flemish people all day long, every day. My grandmother is Flemish and so was my stepmother and her family. A conversation between people was carried out in the language best spoken by both parties. I admit that more often than not, Flemish people are far better at speaking French than the opposite. French-speaking Belgians have about the same ability for languages than the French, it seems. Many Walloons recognize this.

Then I came to Brussels and it was a totally different ballgame. From people in the street with a 'Vlamingen hebben rechten' T-shirt, perfectly nice Flemish colleagues telling me that Flemish people expect the French-speaking to work 50% less than the Flemish, that Brussels belongs to them and that one day they will take it back, from seeing whole departments of Flemish colleagues not talking to the French-speaking departments, then Tigersoap was bullied at work by a Flemish person because he was a Walloon of Italian origin (hence twice as lazy)...

So I'm not talking about a one time occurence, but dozens of times. There is this vibe in Brussels. My mother still lives in Flanders and encounters no such thing. And yes, it has gotten worse in the last ten years. There are 4-5 people at work with whom I get along best and they're all Flemish. Well, a month ago, one of their colleagues was distributing flyers at work with a hateful message saying that Flemish people pay for 'Romanian refugees lifestyle' and that it needs to stop. All my colleagues took the flyer, read it and nodded in agreement. None of them objected. This same colleague was once in my office and told me that he hoped that a guy like Hitler would be elected in Belgium, that at last things would be settled. When I told  him he was racist (which is almost comical for a guy working in an expats' kids school), he told me 'well, what do you think, all my colleagues here think like me, they just don't tell it to your face.'

I listen to FM Brussel or Studio Brussel a lot and it is not rare to have the news begin with immigration problem in Brussels. In recent years, this has become one of the Flemish media's major pet peeves. I know you were probably not thinking like that 10 years ago. There are still many Flemish who don't. But when you see how many support the NVA and its extreme views, these Flemish are no longer a majority, unfortunately.

There is manipulation of the public opinion in the Walloon and the Flemish population. The Walloons are prejudiced against the Arabs first and foremost and resent that the Flemish have more money. Most of them will only admit to these views in private. The Flemish are prejudiced against immigration in general and the Walloons and are very vocal about it.

The VRT is just following this authoritarian follower-style movement and that's what I meant by right-wing.

No one is immune from brainwashing, I certainly am not. If anything, I had a positive prejudice for  the Flemish. The attitude in Brussels hit me like a ton of bricks.

[Laura]

I think something interesting have been said here : living in a big town or being in a more "rural" area can give a really different experience in a country.

I become utterly nuts when people talks about Paris as it is "France" in its whole while I know from experience that Paris is an island in the middle of a country ...

So true.  Our neighbors around are, for the most part, great.  But it's the peeps in the cities that are nuts, and that includes those in Toulouse who are being manipulated and/or controlled by some in Paris. 

But still, there is that obvious wounding in the French that derives from the overall culture inculcated by school and the propaganda that is always there as an undercurrent.   I found out that some people in local positions of authority or having positions that give them a bit more wealth and  position, aspire to emulate the Parisians in their attitudes and perversions. They rather poison the local atmosphere.