Seeing someone's lessons - affecting me

[Menna]

Im sure that people on this forum have been close to someone see the current lesson(s) that they need to learn and understand. Try to tell them the truth but know that this person doesn't truly understand it yet and it is causing them mental and emotional pain.

If I can't help them right now or they arent asking what "work" strategies can I use to stop myself from thinking about it feeling and knowing their pain so I can enjoy my everyday life and not be emotionally sad or slowed down thinking about it? What have others done to avoid this affecting them? I know its empathy but I can feel it sucking energy from me and would like to protect myself from it.

and I think its great to care and have compassion for others but for me when I do this it intrudes on my life and its harder for me to get things accomplished because my mental and emotional energy are being using on their life situations I would like to protect myself from crossing over like this. It would be great if I could feel for and care for others all day but in this reality we all have responsabilities and what not its not really practical to live like this. 

[pstott]

I am in exactly the same situation! My wife immediately "shuts down" or gets angry at me when I mention anything that disturbs her picture of reality, and it takes a week or so before this dissipates.

I have learned to let her live in her own world - and to hope that she will be able to cope with the coming changes. If possible I am prepared to assist however I can should unfolding events mess her up, but I am reconciled to the fact that I can do no more than that.

[Palinurus]

I'm sure that people on this forum have been close to someone see the current lesson(s) that they need to learn and understand.

Hi Menna,

I hope I got this right and if not please say so, but reading this I feel an urge to say that helping other people --close by or otherwise-- always has to start from the level THEY are on, not from the level YOU occupy. When you take this one rule to heart and let the others indicate where, when and how they want to be helped you will always find little things you can do for others and be satisfied with it because it's what THEY need.

All the rest seems to be encapsulated in the notion of strategic enclosure, I think. It's tough, I know. Try to make it a conscious suffering to help yourself out of the rut.

That's how I see this at the moment.

[Emmanuel]

Interesting that i posted something very similar just few minutes ago. Seems that is happening to a lot of people this "shutting down" of the persons closed to us. Matrix on the work?

[Jerry]

Im sure that people on this forum have been close to someone see the current lesson(s) that they need to learn and understand. Try to tell them the truth but know that this person doesn't truly understand it yet and it is causing them mental and emotional pain.

If I can't help them right now or they arent asking what "work" strategies can I use to stop myself from thinking about it feeling and knowing their pain so I can enjoy my everyday life and not be emotionally sad or slowed down thinking about it? What have others done to avoid this affecting them? I know its empathy but I can feel it sucking energy from me and would like to protect myself from it.

and I think its great to care and have compassion for others but for me when I do this it intrudes on my life and its harder for me to get things accomplished because my mental and emotional energy are being using on their life situations I would like to protect myself from crossing over like this. It would be great if I could feel for and care for others all day but in this reality we all have responsabilities and what not its not really practical to live like this.

Hi Menna,

My understanding is that it’s typical of STS to think that one can determine the needs of others.

You may wish to investigate the determination to feel pity for others who you can’t possibly fully understand.

Have you read Wilson’s book Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious?

[Menna]

Jerry - regardless of trying to figure out what others need if we put that STS thinking aside. It is an objective fact that when someone is constantly questioning themselves, feeling like others actions are their fault, That the mental process of figuring it out wether through help or on your own is a painful and draining process. I feel for those I am close to who are going through this process and this feeling then affects me when I am away from them trying to live my own life and would like to feel compassion when interacting with them but then when alone or in a place where nothing can be done be able to protect my own emotions, mental activity from the empathy crossover.

[Buddy]

If I can't help them right now or they arent asking what "work" strategies can I use to stop myself from thinking about it feeling and knowing their pain so I can enjoy my everyday life and not be emotionally sad or slowed down thinking about it? What have others done to avoid this affecting them? I know its empathy but I can feel it sucking energy from me and would like to protect myself from it.

and I think its great to care and have compassion for others but for me when I do this it intrudes on my life and its harder for me to get things accomplished because my mental and emotional energy are being using on their life situations I would like to protect myself from crossing over like this. It would be great if I could feel for and care for others all day but in this reality we all have responsabilities and what not its not really practical to live like this.

Hi Menna. I can't promise how good you'll feel with any strategy of mine, but I'll share some things that seem to have been helpful: Gurdjieff's talks about internal considering, biblical parables with Gnostic parallels, Sufi stories dealing with "sympathy for self" and my own sometimes agonizing experiences. For instance, it's very hard to see exactly what lesson has appeared for another, even though they may be suffering, because I'm unable to sharply divide their exact lesson which may be my lesson or our lesson, or something else entirely.

Some stylized paraphrasing:

The story was told of a severe storm that arose at sea while the J-man and some disciples were on board some boat. The guys became fearful and begged: "master, master what shall we do...we might all drown?" J-man said "Peace. Be still." I feel he was talking to the disciples, not the weather. Maybe they temporarily forgot themselves, having lost touch with that fragment of centered calmness Needleman talks about in Lost Christianity.

Another story relates to a Sufi-in-training's experience. Upon arrival in a new city, he observed a man lying on the ground, perhaps covered with sores and making noises indicating his suffering. There were also people about and none were paying him any attention.

Being a good man at heart, the Sufi knelt down and questioned the man, asking what he needed and what could be done for him. Slightly annoyed, the suffering man asked "why do you try to come between me and my Lord? Go away!" For this Sufi, endarkenment became enlightenment as he saw himself conditioned to act on impulses from social and internal expectations related to being a "good man".

Having said the above, I'm still not free of all these impulses, and may never be, but I think I've increased my ability to see them for what they are (as I understand that) and that gives me a bit more time to think before I act.

[bngenoh]

I hope I got this right and if not please say so, but reading this I feel an urge to say that helping other people --close by or otherwise-- always has to start from the level THEY are on, not from the level YOU occupy. When you take this one rule to heart and let the others indicate where, when and how they want to be helped you will always find little things you can do for others and be satisfied with it because it's what THEY need.

All the rest seems to be encapsulated in the notion of strategic enclosure, I think. It's tough, I know. Try to make it a conscious suffering to help yourself out of the rut.

That's how I see this at the moment.

I second the advice given by Palinurus.

Menna, I know exactly what you're going through, but, tis our lot.

Have you observed children ages 0 - 1 yrs? They are absolutely perfect examples, for me at least, their eyes bespeak of the state which I have found useful when interacting with others, just clear eyed listening to others and what they're communicating, of course keeping the attention on oneself is also part of the process.

To feel pain is the sign to ourselves, that we are alive, at least as long as things remain as they are, osit.

Whe in such modes, I have found that thinking about DOing and that for all intents and purposes, I can do nothing, I mix this with "Ignotas nulla curatio morbid," that is "do not attempt to cure what you do not understand" and the context of the situation, it helps not to throw out the baby with the bath water in my interactions with others.

I hope that helped. 

[Buddy]

Jerry - regardless of trying to figure out what others need if we put that STS thinking aside. It is an objective fact that when someone is constantly questioning themselves, feeling like others actions are their fault, That the mental process of figuring it out wether through help or on your own is a painful and draining process. I feel for those I am close to who are going through this process and this feeling then affects me when I am away from them trying to live my own life and would like to feel compassion when interacting with them but then when alone or in a place where nothing can be done be able to protect my own emotions, mental activity from the empathy crossover.

No matter what the emotion or feeling, nothing seems to last forever. You nor I have any power to make any part of reality stand still as far as I know. If you are bothered in that way you describe as 'crossover', you may be unknowingly trying to hold onto these feelings for some reason(s). Just my thoughts ATM.

[webglider]

Quote from Menna:

If I can't help them right now or they arent asking what "work" strategies can I use to stop myself from thinking about it feeling and knowing their pain so I can enjoy my everyday life and not be emotionally sad or slowed down thinking about it? What have others done to avoid this affecting them? I know its empathy but I can feel it sucking energy from me and would like to protect myself from it.

and I think its great to care and have compassion for others but for me when I do this it intrudes on my life and its harder for me to get things accomplished because my mental and emotional energy are being using on their life situations I would like to protect myself from crossing over like this.

Menna, I've been basically doing what you describe for my whole life and I am much, much older than you. It was only very recently that I found out the term for this behavior which is co-dependency.  I'll provide a profile and you can decide if it fits you.

Co-dependent people take care of others at the expense of taking care of themselves.  They feel that they can't move on with their lives unless the other person is okay.  As they take more and more care of and assume more responsibility for others,  they take less care of themselves leading to feelings of frustration, bitterness, helplessness, rage, sadness, etc. 

The fact that you've recognized the pattern and that you don't want to participate in it is very healthy.  I've benefited from your responses to some of my posts and actually implemented the suggestions you gave me.  The empathy that you showed for my situation really helped. But as you realize, empathy can be a trap.

Recently someone observing my interactions with my daughter came up to me and explained the concept  of co-dependency.  As she was speaking, everything came into focus for me, and I immediately started to make changes that organically have begun to evolve from the new understanding with which I had been gifted.

One of the main problems that co-dependents have is a lack of clear boundaries.  When I looked at my life, I realized that a lot of the anger, resentment, and unhappiness in my life came from not knowing where I ended and the other person began.  I felt that I couldn't go on with my life unless whatever person was close to me at the time was all right.  I wasted a lot of my life like this.  I thought I was being a good person.  I really didn't have a clue that what I was really doing

I have started a journal and joined a co-dependency help group.  It is helpful because even though our stories are very different, the feelings and underlying issues are the same.  None of us are giving advice or socializing or anything like that.  We're just listening to each other and that's enough.

It took me a very, very long time to actually be presented with this information, but when I was, I was ready to embrace it.  I'm using the word, "no" a lot, and I'm not offering to help so much.  I'm less angry and though not exactly happy, I'm not as resentful anymore.  I also take the time now to check in with myself to ask how I feel.  Instead of asking other people if they're all right, I'm asking myself that question several times a day.  If the answer is "No, I'm not all right", than I write in my journal to try to find the reason why I'm not okay. 

I hope this helps. 

[Menna]

Pstott - Knowing that she is in illusion and that she most likely will face emotional, physical or mental pain when/if coming out of them...Does this upset you at times during the day/week taking up some of your energy even if you know its not productive to try and help, make her aware.

Palinarus - I agree you do have to teach to the level of the learner. Noticing when and how they need the help is a skill i need to enhance.

Buddy - I am now thinking that along with the "be nice" program that which I have worked on and is less I might have a "Good Man" program both similiar but the latter being something that comes up out of feeling obligated. Yes nothing lasts forever. After I posted earlier today I had a crying/heavy breathing spell in my room thinking about the situation and since then I have felt calmer and more at peace. I credit this to EE being that during practice I have this experience.

Bngenoh - I agreed wide eyes listening just taking everything in is external considering and the right way to go about it but knowing when and what to say back I believe is also external considering but this part is tricky...Knowing when to DO

Webglider - Thank you this makes sense. Having someone elses happiness or lack their of affect you is not healthy, putting others infront of you the majority of the time is not healthy. SOmething that I have realized if you wan't to succeed in this word or at least be balanced you have to be a lil selfish for your own benefit you cant always put others first or else you are left behind. The tipping of the scale and negative emotion coming because of being selfless is depended on the individual person some people are more resentfull and spitefull then others but I understand that this dynamic is created when taking care of others at the expense of taking care of yourself. It is just strange to me that a positive emotion such as empathy can be toxic/draining to the self. But I guess it comes back to balance to have empathy at the appropriate time but be able to put yourself first when you feel the empathy turing on you or feel out of balance. O and yes not overstepping boundaries is a good point as well. I believe that and respect are intertwined somewhat

[echo]

About empathy/ compassion: I remember reading an article (I think it was on sott but couldn't find it) where a buddhist monk was talking about the draining aspects of empathy, and that the solution is developing compassion, "loving-kindness", to counter the harshness of the raw emotions. I took it to mean an acceptance of the way things are and that you may see what's happening but not necessarily interfere or react emotionally.

I recognize myself in dealing with issues of co-dependency. Seems I always had someone else's feelings to put before my own and when I didn't I couldn't really function. It's good to see this, but difficult because it means I really have to change, and sometimes I feel like I'm not ready for my own life.

[Palinurus]

Co-dependent people take care of others at the expense of taking care of themselves.  They feel that they can't move on with their lives unless the other person is okay.  As they take more and more care of and assume more responsibility for others,  they take less care of themselves leading to feelings of frustration, bitterness, helplessness, rage, sadness, etc. 
[...]
One of the main problems that co-dependents have is a lack of clear boundaries.  When I looked at my life, I realized that a lot of the anger, resentment, and unhappiness in my life came from not knowing where I ended and the other person began.  I felt that I couldn't go on with my life unless whatever person was close to me at the time was all right.  I wasted a lot of my life like this.  I thought I was being a good person.  I really didn't have a clue that what I was really doing

Thank you for posting this, webglider. I fully recognize the pattern from my own behaviour in the distant past. It brought about a fullblown bankruptcy experience somewhere between 35-40 yo. Typical midlife crisis, albeit an early one, I thought at the time. But your explanation fits the facts much better in retrospect. Glad to learn there is a name for this condition. Will go find some extra info about it. Felt much relieved even now whilst reading this. Thanks again.

[Menna]

sometimes I feel like I'm not ready for my own life.


....I feel the same

[pstott]

Pstott - Knowing that she is in illusion and that she most likely will face emotional, physical or mental pain when/if coming out of them...Does this upset you at times during the day/week taking up some of your energy even if you know its not productive to try and help, make her aware.

I think that the pain is something we all have to go through in order to grow - I know I did, and probably will in the future.

She will have to face these things when she must - not when I am ready to deal with her reactions to them. It used to take up some of my energy but I think I have managed to detach enough now that it no longert does. I might add - she is probably not able to take on more stress because she has constantly to deal with Cystic Fibrosis, which is a continual state of suffering in itself. Seeing her difficulty with these health problems also used to be a drain on me, and something I have had to learn to detach from.

If she asks for my assistance I am ready, but otherwise I let her be.


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