Mind and Cosmos by Thomas Nagel

[quote author=Approaching Infinity l]
[quote author=Laura ]

How are you finding the exercise? My experience has been that I learn a LOT when I work to make it clear to others.
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Absolutely. I got out some of the other books I've read on the same subjects, and some of the super dense passages in them make a lot more sense to me now. I also find myself thinking about the ideas during the day, coming up with analogies or certain phrases. It's a good brain workout, and it's fun when something finally 'clicks'. Then, once it has clicked, it's a lot easier to explain in other words. After I'm done with this one, I'm going to go back over Sheldrake and Griffin and see if there's anything worthwhile to add to the discussion here.
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Appreciate how this has been summarized AI in your words. It will make me think about other things read within this context; to see if i can better work through them, and if ever reproducing, make it more "clear to others."

Good job.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
I got out some of the other books I've read on the same subjects, and some of the super dense passages in them make a lot more sense to me now. I also find myself thinking about the ideas during the day, coming up with analogies or certain phrases. It's a good brain workout, and it's fun when something finally 'clicks'. Then, once it has clicked, it's a lot easier to explain in other words. After I'm done with this one, I'm going to go back over Sheldrake and Griffin and see if there's anything worthwhile to add to the discussion here.

I understood it this time around, so it is a highly appreciated brain workout!
 
This one was a bit tougher...

Consciousness

As mentioned in the Introduction, Descartes (and Galileo) did something during the scientific revolution in the 17th century that led to our current problem: they invented the concept of 'objective physical reality.' They split the world in two: (1) an external, 'objective' reality that extended throughout space and time and could be observed, measured and described mathematically (e.g., size, shape, motion--'primary qualities'), and (2) an internal, 'subjective' reality of appearances assigned to the mind (color, sound, smell, etc.--'secondary qualities'). Primary qualities were essential to the things in question, while their secondary features were just that: secondary, less essential, more 'subjective.' Because human perception of the world only dealt with such 'secondary' qualities, it was left out of the scientific study of 'objective reality.' So, such pioneers of science used their senses to derive conclusions about reality, but ignored their very ability to take in those sense-data in the first place: consciousness, subjectivity, experience. We're still under the influence of this gross error.

But humans are part of objective reality, as are our perceptions and the central nervous systems that make those perceptions possible. We're composed of the same stuff as the universe. And the very existence of consciousness is a mystery. It seems to imply "that the physical description of the universe, in spite of its richness and explanatory power, is only part of the truth, and that the natural order is far less austere than it would be if physics and chemistry accounted for everything." The thing that scientists ignored (and continue to ignore) actually points to a far more complex universe than simple 'objective reality' suggests.

So how do materialists, who think that "only the physical world is irreducibly real" (i.e., only matter is fundamentally real; everything else can be explained in terms of it and it alone), account for minds? Various theories have come and gone, including various types of behaviorism. Behaviorism took Descartes' error to an extreme, saying that mental experiences were the same thing as the behaviors or actions that accompanied them. So, a smile was the same thing as 'being happy.' In fact, because only what is observable and measurable is real (there's Descartes' error again), 'being happy' was no more than a smile. The really extreme behaviorists would say there is no such thing as being happy, only smiles. Subjective experience is an illusion. Mental states are no more than the facts that outside observers can observe, in order to say that such a state has indeed occurred. (In jargon, it's a 'verificationist' theory, because it needs verifiable data, not subjective experience, which can't be verified by anyone other than the person experience it.) Your happiness is only real because you smiled, or your brain waves showed a certain pattern of activity. That's the extent of its reality.

Next there is "psycho-physical identity theory." According to this theory, brain states are mental states. They are two ways of describing the same thing, the same way that H20 and water are two ways to describe the same thing. So pain is the same as the physical event that occurs in the brain when someone is in pain. But how? It's pretty difficult, because 'pain' and 'pain brain state' don't have the same meanings. Pain is naturally understood as a subjective experience, and a brain state is naturally understood as a pattern of activity in the brain. How can they explain pain as a brain state, without appealing to anything nonphysical? To get around this, they tried to connect all these aspects in a chain of cause and effect: the inner state causes certain behavior, and is caused by certain external stimuli. So, an external stimulus (a pin prick) causes the inner state (pain), which causes a behaviour (facial expression, brain state).

There's a reason it's hard to follow these theories and what they're actually trying to say. That's because they're all trying force a square block through a circular hole. No matter how many ways you try to describe something in terms of something that it's not, it's not going to work. No matter how you try to phrase it, you can't reduce subjective experience. No matter how detailed our explanations can be regarding brain states, there's no possible way such a description can also explain the fact that "I am," and "I experience." There's no other way of describing it except for what it is: direct, subjective experience. It's irreducible. We can describe chemical molecules, but not taste; spectra of light, but not color; neurochemistry, but not emotion. Eyes do not necessarily imply seeing, nerves feeling, ears hearing, etc. All these theories leave out something essential: "the inner mental state itself."

The problem with identity theory is that "H20=water" is sound; it's fully explanatory and it makes sense. Water is nothing but H20, plain and simple. And I can't possibly conceive of a circumstance where H20 does NOT equal water. On the other hand, "It seems conceivable, for any [brain state], that there should be [a brain state] without any experience at all. Experience of taste seems to be something extra, contingently related to the brain state--something produced rather than constituted by the brain itself. So it cannot be identical to the brain state in the way that water is identical to H20." In other words, emotions are more than just brain chemicals; color is more than just light wavelengths, flavor is more than just chemicals, etc. Our subjective experiences may be intimately and strictly tied to what occurs in our brains, but that does NOT mean that brain states are the full explanation.

All this points out just how much difficulty materialists have explaining conscious subjects and their mental lives--"irreducibly subjective centers of consciousness." We'll probably need entirely new concepts to understand the connection between brain and mind, concepts which would would explain what otherwise seems incomprehensible, and this would probably require a revolution on par with relativity. It may not be that subjective experience is something 'produced' by brain states (or 'contingent' on them). That's probably an illusion. It may well be that there is a necessary connection between them. This dual external-physical / internal-mental complexity might pervade the whole world. As Nagel writes, "if psychophysical reductionism is ruled out, this infects our entire naturalistic understanding of the universe."

In this sense, if we're going the 'anti-reductionism' route, it can definitely be seen as a highly "extravagant and costly" position to take. Let's start by looking at what it means for evolution. Even if materialism could give a good account of the origin of life (the first self-reproducing organisms), it would also have to account for the origin of consciousness. And any good theory of consciousness would have to account for the fact that the appearance of consciousness on earth seems closely dependent on the life forms in which it is developed. In other words, a good physical theory has to account for the appearance of the mental aspects in the world. And a good mental theory has to account for why consciousness seems so dependent on physical forms. Either way, evolution is has to be part of the picture, in one form or another.

So what kind of evolutionary explanation, if any, can account for conscious subjects? As pointed out a few paragraphs above, consciousness is "logically distinct" from matter and materialistic wiseacreings: if materialism could account for evolution and the development of nervous systems, it still couldn't account for subjective experience. But there's a fine distinction here. It may also be the case that consciousness needs this complexity in order to appear in the first place, i.e., complexity as a causally necessary and sufficient condition for consciousness. But even this would still require something else in addition to materialism, to account for subjective experience. We need an actual explanation to understand why and how the cause (complexity) produces the effect (consciousness). The two must be explained together. Because materialism can't do this, it can't be the whole truth: "something fundamental must be changed in our conception of the natural order that gave rise to life" if we are to understand why consciousness "was to be expected or how it came about."

Assuming that the universe is fundamentally intelligible, that there is some inherent order to make sense of, we should be able to understand and explain it. But not all things need that 'deep' level of explanation; some things are just coincidence. And just because you know the cause of something, that does not necessarily mean you have fully explained it. For example, take the deaths of four near relatives in a very short time period. Even if I know the direct causes of each of the four deaths, that still doesn't explain the coincidence. There may be something else that explains why it was likely to occur this way, and not another--some relation that makes it intelligible (e.g., a vendetta or genetic disease). As another example, when I type "3+5=" into a calculator, "8" appears. I know the cause (i.e., I pressed the buttons), but there's something else necessary to fully explain it (e.g., the governing algorithm, programmed by its designer).

It's always possible that events like these can be just coincidences. The deaths could just be a freak event, or the calculator may have no real programming, or just be programmed to give "8" as the answer to any buttons I push. "But systematic features of the natural world are not coincidences … Regularities, patterns, and functional organization call out for explanation." If we see such patterns for what they are, but can't explain them, we naturally conclude that our knowledge is lacking in some area; but if we gain that unknown 'something,' it would make everything make sense. The facts would be rendered intelligible.

Similarly, we can see cause and effect in evolution (increasing complexity as a result of natural selection, leading to conscious beings), but we still don't have a full explanation or why it occurred in this way and not another. If we ignore consciousness for the moment, evolutionary theory has to explain why it was likely that accidental mutations led to enough variation to promote evolution; why it was likely that matter evolved into life by chance (i.e., replicating molecules and ribosomes). In other words, it has to explain why it seems so counter-intuitive, so unlikely to have happened the way it actually did. And even if it could (right now it can't), it would still also have to account for consciousness.

If dualism were true, and mind existed as some absolutely separate and distinct 'thing,' evolutionary theory wouldn't have to account for consciousness, but it would still have to account for why evolution produced organisms "capable of being occupied by and interacting with minds." (But, again, this seems rather unlikely--as if matter just so happened to evolve in order to somehow create an adequate body to connect up with mind, and to do so repeatedly and consistently throughout evolutionary history.)

Because of these problems, evolutionary theory must be revised. It can't just state the observable fact that different animals have different consciousnesses, writing off that fact as a "mysterious side effect" of evolution. If the world is intelligible, there's got to be a better answer than that: "a general psychophysical theory of consciousness would have to be woven into the evolutionary story, one which makes intelligible both (1) why specific organisms have the conscious life they have, and (2) why conscious organism arose in the history of life on earth." Again, if evolutionary theory could answer the first question, it still couldn't answer the second. What's needed is what Nagel calls a "conjunctive explanation."

Taking our previous example, tapping "3+5=" (A) explains why "8" appears (B). 'A' explains 'B,' and and 'B' has a consequence (C): the calculator got the right answer. But 'C' doesn't explain WHY the calculator got the right answer. It's just a statement of fact: it got the right answer. A full explanation requires "some further, internal relation between A, B, and C. There must be something about A itself that makes C a likely consequence." In other words, an engineer programmed the calculator with an algorithm, so when I type "3+5=", getting the answer '8' is a likely consequence. Nagel relates this to evolution: "I believe that if A is the evolutionary history, B is the appearance of certain organisms, and C is their consciousness, this means that some kind of psychophysical theory must apply not only non-historically, at the end of the process, but also to the evolutionary process itself."

Let's take this apart. A explains B: evolutionary history explains the appearance of organisms. B has consequence C: the organisms have consciousness. Nagel is saying that there needs to be some kind of internal connection between the historical process (Becoming) and the non-historical aspect (Being). Eight was the right answer because the calculator was programmed to give the right answer; perhaps complex beings are conscious because the universe is 'programmed' to give rise to conscious beings. (Not programmed in the sense of an 'intelligent designer,' but programming somehow woven into the fabric of the universe.) We need to add consciousness to our physical understanding, as playing an active role in the survival of organisms, having hereditary features, and contributing to an individual's 'genetic variation.' But we're still left with the double mystery of Being and Becoming: what is the nature of the relation between the physical and the mental? how do we transform our current physical understanding of evolution to explain how consciousness co-developed with bodies?

As Nagel puts it, a good explanation will have these two elements: "an ahistorical constitutive account [Being] of how certain complex physical systems are also mental, and a historical account of how such systems arose in the universe from its beginnings [Becoming]." Becoming is the outcome of Being, and Becoming has to account for the Being of complex organisms. In other words, something about the structure of the universe leads to the development of conscious beings, and the course of development has to explain how it reached its end results.

There are two possible ways of explaining Being (i.e., the constitutive question). It is either reductive (not to be confused with reductionist) or emergent. Reductive means that everything can be explained by 'reducing' things down to the parts that make them up. So, a reductive explanation of Being will explain consciousness of complex beings "entirely in terms of their elementary constituents." And since the mental cannot be reduced to physical, these constituents will not be merely physical. (And since we're made of the same stuff as the universe, this implies that the stuff of the universe is itself not merely physical!) In other words, everything in the universe can be reduced to one thing: mental/physical 'stuff.'

An emergent account, on the other hand, will explain consciousness as something that 'emerges' only when certain levels of complexity are reached, e.g., central nervous systems. Some principles link mental states and complex physical activity. So, it's different from the reductive account because the connections only apply to complex organisms, not the individual parts that make them up. So If evolution can explain the historical appearance of complex beings on its own, it can be compatible with an emergent approach. But an emergent account needs to systematically explain the connection between mind and complexity, not just observe that they appear together. But this is tricky, because it means that organisms somehow have a mental aspect that ISN'T grounded in the stuff that makes those organisms. As mentioned previously, how likely is it that physical matter, simply by virtue of being combined in certain ways (and by chance, at that!), would reach a state that allows it to connect with 'consciousness.' (And what is the nature of this consciousness? There's Descartes' dualism again.) Seems kind of far-fetched.

It's natural to think that whatever's true of the whole must be true of the parts. Take water. When hydrogen and oxygen combine to make H20, water's liquid quality 'emerges' from this higher level of organization and complexity of its parts. But the features of water are still grounded in, and can be explained in terms of, the elements that make it up. We don't need to add anything 'extra' to our understanding. But consciousness seems to be something completely new. It's hard to grasp how non-conscious parts can somehow combine and suddenly become conscious simply because they combined in some specific way. If the world is indeed intelligible, we'll probably have to give up on the emergent account and look closely at the reductive one. This will be a "general monism" (i.e., a unified base to the universe, one single substance or reality), where "the constituents of the universe have properties that explain not only its physical but its mental character." The mental/physical 'stuff' would evolve to higher levels of complexity--from physics and chemistry to life, and then to conscious beings. Some mental aspect would be present from the very beginning, becoming more complex and more conscious as the universe became more complex.

So, this theory would say that brain states ARE mental states, kind of like identity theory. The difference would be that the physical description is only part of the picture, not the whole shebang. Consciousness isn't a side effect of brain processes (as in an emergent account); brain processes are more than just physical. And since we're taking the reductive route here (universal monism), this goes all the way down to the roots of matter. It doesn't make sense to think of matter as simply 'dead stuff'; rather, "all the elements of the physical world are also mental." In other words, panpsychism. Mind permeates the universe.

Panpsychism may help us to understand how conscious beings can exist in the first place--because mind is part of everything, part of the essential Being of the cosmos--but we're still left with a problem. How can we explain how bits of this 'panpsychic stuff' combine in ways to give rise to the specific types of consciousness we see around us and experience for ourselves? To solve this one, we need to move on to the historical problem: Becoming. Here we have three possibilities: mechanical cause-and-effect (causal), purposeful development (teleological), and divine intervention (intentional).

With cause-and-effect, evolution is understood pretty much as we already understand it: elementary parts of the universe governed by physical laws, bumping into each other until they happen to form RNA/DNA, proteins, etc. Then natural selection takes over and chance survival results better adapted species.

Teleology adds something to those physical laws: "principles of self-organization or of the development of complexity over time that are not explained by those elemental laws." In other words, in addition to chance, there is also some principle in the universe that causes physical laws to be directed in certain ways, for matter to take certain forms and not others. It's not just by chance that life developed; the universe has goals, and matter self-organizes to reach those goals.

With divine intervention, God intentionally made the universe in such a way that life would be possible--he set all the conditions just right, so that just as the properties of matter make possible the creation of a jet aircraft, the possibility of life was possible (e.g., amino acids can form proteins).

Any of these can be combined with either emergent or reductive Being, giving six options in total: 1) emergent cause-and-effect, 2) reductive cause-and-effect, 3) emergent teleology, 4) reductive teleology, 5) emergent divine intervention, 6) reductive divine intervention.

In option 1 (emergent cause-and-effect), the universe would be start out strictly physical, until the appearance of consciousness, at which point it would then be physical and mental. This possibility has been alluded to above (e.g., in the paragraph on emergence). If successful, it would be compatible with current evolutionary theory (for the physical stage), and irreducible consciousness (as an emergent quality of complex matter). But it would still have to account for exactly how a type of complex organism is inseparable from its own specific type of consciousness. And even then, the emergence of consciousness remains an unintelligible brute fact: "essentially mysterious." Basically, matter just randomly developed to the point where it was somehow able to 'link up' with consciousness. There's no explanation for why this was likely, or even possible.

Materialism is actually one form of option 2 (reductive cause-and-effect). Everything is reducible to matter, and the possibility of life is present in the physical and chemical laws of cause-and-effect. So, if we simply add 'mind' into the equation, this one is the least radical option--it has the most in common with the current orthodox opinion. In this type of monism or panpsychism, everything is reducible to proto-mental elements (physical/mental 'stuff'), and the possibility of conscious beings is present in the laws that regulate this stuff. Just as the fundamental properties of matter make possible the formation of atoms, molecules, galaxies, etc., it makes sense to believe that the tendency for the development of conscious organisms was also there at the beginning, in these proto-mental bits.

Panpsychism has some interesting implications. We know from our own experience that consciousness is both active and passive. We passively take in impressions/perceptions/sensations and actively direct behavior (e.g., vision, which can be both passive, and actively directed). Proto-mental bits would also need to have active and passive components. In other words, this would imply some kind of active behavior on the part of these elements. And there would be an unbreakable connection between any mental and physical phenomenon: "one cannot have the mental without the physical aspect, or vice versa." So, a visual system would necessarily have 'visual experience' tied to it. And because it would have both passive and active features (i.e., the ability to direct actions), this would undoubtedly have a survival advantage. So consciousness would play a direct role in evolution.

This option has its own problems, however. It may seek "a deeper and more cosmically unified explanation of consciousness than an emergent theory, but at the cost of greater obscurity." It's easy and natural to see how the physical elements of the universe make up the more complex parts (atoms, molecules, cells, organs, planets, suns, etc.). But it's hard to imagine how proto-mental bits would combine to make more complex forms of consciousness. We propose that they exist simply because we need them to exist in order to make sense of anything, but apart from that, they're still a mystery. We can't detect them, predict how they interact, or understand how mental elements make up mental states (the way atoms make up molecules).

Another problem has to do with how it answers the historical question (Becoming). Going back to vision, even if the visual system is somehow implied in its parts (i.e., passive impressions, active behavior), it doesn't explain why it formed in the first place. Just like the standard evolutionary account, it can't explain how these organisms came to be, how sufficient genetic variations came to be. The question is the same as it was with matter: what is it about proto-mental bits that makes the appearance of life and conscious beings any more likely? Let's say we have these proto-mental bits. Why didn't they just remain proto-mental bits? Why did they combine into complex forms and thus create conscious beings? At this point, unless some serious advances are made in the future, 'proto-mental bits' make the world no more intelligible than it already is. It's even more speculative than evolutionary theory, because it adds something completely unknown to the basic substance of the world.

These problems make the intentional and teleological alternatives s lot more attractive. If we take the divine intervention options, for example, God could have created the world in such a way that the proto-mental parts would inevitably combine in certain ways, like a divine clockmaker setting things in motion. He could have assembled DNA or simply created beings of proto-mental parts. But if we want a secular theory, there are only two options. First, simply take the clockmaker out of the equation. Instead of God creating the perfect conditions, the universe just happens to have the perfect conditions so that physical laws give rise to organisms. Cause and effect. But we've seen the problems with this. That leaves us with the second alternative: teleological laws. These laws would govern change over time and tend toward certain outcomes over others. Contemporary science excludes purpose and goals in nature a priori--natural selection is based on chance, after all, and it's hard to think of goals without also having a being whose purposes are being fulfilled. But Nagel is convinced that teleology can be coherent and natural (without any reference to God directing things according to His whims): "natural teleology would mean that the universe is rationally governed in more than one way--not only through the universal … laws of physics that underlie [cause and effect] but also through principles which imply that things happen because they are on a path that leads toward certain outcomes--notably, the existence of living, and ultimately of conscious, organisms."

All the above was to try to account for basic consciousness: the experience of being alive, sensing, perceiving, moving, feeling, etc. But there's something else that needs to be accounted for: the fact that human consciousness is active in both thought and deed. That is, we have intentionality, "the capacity of the mind to represent the world and its own aims." Nagel thinks this active quality is only possible with a foundation of consciousness, and that it poses an additional stumbling block for materialism and theories that just focus on consciousness: "I believe that the role of consciousness in the survival of organisms is inseparable from intentionality: inseparable from perception, belief, desire, and action, and finally from reason."
 
You've broken things down to examples and options and reflection of what he is getting at - as Buddy say's, "smooth out Nagel's writing and make it less distracting".

Good job again AI!
 
voyageur said:
You've broken things down to examples and options and reflection of what he is getting at - as Buddy say's, "smooth out Nagel's writing and make it less distracting".

Good job again AI!
Thank you Approaching Infinity for doing this work. :thup:
 
The problem with identity theory is that "H20=water" is sound; it's fully explanatory and it makes sense. Water is nothing but H20, plain and simple. And I can't possibly conceive of a circumstance where H20 does NOT equal water. On the other hand, "It seems conceivable, for any [brain state], that there should be [a brain state] without any experience at all. Experience of taste seems to be something extra, contingently related to the brain state--something produced rather than constituted by the brain itself. So it cannot be identical to the brain state in the way that water is identical to H20." In other words, emotions are more than just brain chemicals; color is more than just light wavelengths, flavor is more than just chemicals, etc. Our subjective experiences may be intimately and strictly tied to what occurs in our brains, but that does NOT mean that brain states are the full explanation.

Thanks AI! This last commentary on 'Consciousness' made Nagel's writings more clear. I'm even struggling a lot reading the '5th Option', so this 'Mind and Cosmos' would be very hard to grok with this kind of technical language. Very good 'translation' :)
 
I've been thinking about what we have so far as it relates to the question posed here. I was particularly attracted to part of AI's response:

Approaching Infinity said:
On teleology and attractors, there's a good section in Sheldrake's book about that. He develops Whitehead's idea of mental causation a bit: basically he thinks that physical causation goes from past to future, and mental causation goes from future to past. Put in other words, the future acts as an attractor to the past (this is one of his features of morphogenetic fields), "pulling" physical causation in a way according to certain cosmic habits and towards certain ends.

But as I've been mulling this over, I began wondering if Sheldrake has any concrete representations of what he's saying in the above quote? I'm left with trying to work it out conceptually and trying to find my own concrete examples and the hands-on part of me is having a bit of trouble.

To condense my understanding of the above just a bit:

The future is attracting a past that's bringing a future, and the attraction is a "pulling" force. So, why is there a need for mental causation to pull from the future if the past is already causing the future; i.e., like a road that builds itself in front of you as you take one step at a time? Assuming Sheldrake is being as clear as he can be, then, if we need backward causation from the mental side of things, it would seem to imply a future someone(s) looking back in time, as in hindsight vision is 20/20 and that this is critical for there to be a future. What if they stop looking back? Is mental causation in the present, instead?

As I try to model this, my difficulty is with the mixing of the mental and the physical levels of energy at a level where they can connect with the same or similar magnitude of force (or magnetic or electrical attraction).

Everything I've ever learned about energy frequencies leads me to doubt that mental and material energy fields connect in any direct way, as if tying two pieces of string of unequal thicknesses together; rather, frequency bands run parallel with each other and there are "phase-like" transitions between energy states, or states of matter (solid to liquid to gas, for example). So, assuming mental causation exists, how would a future-to-past mental energy flow attract a past-to-future material energy flow in a way that the meaning of "cause" can apply?

Could this be related to how Don Juan describes bands of awareness coming together at an assemblage point (quantum entanglement comes to mind)? Or Gurdjieff's description of a conscious Aim (for future accomplishment) as it involves the whole being? And his statement that to obtain the most complete knowledge of a subject we must study it with our minds, feelings and sensations, Or maybe even how strong emotion like fear associated with a negative image of the future can actually help bring about the very thing that is feared (self-fulfilling prophecy)?

If there is something to this idea, then I guess an appropriate metaphor would be conscious beings, including humans, as like "nodes" in a universal computer?
 
Buddy said:
But as I've been mulling this over, I began wondering if Sheldrake has any concrete representations of what he's saying in the above quote? I'm left with trying to work it out conceptually and trying to find my own concrete examples and the hands-on part of me is having a bit of trouble.

You'll probably want to read the book for his full treatment of the subject to see if it makes sense to you.

To condense my understanding of the above just a bit:

The future is attracting a past that's bringing a future, and the attraction is a "pulling" force. So, why is there a need for mental causation to pull from the future if the past is already causing the future; i.e., like a road that builds itself in front of you as you take one step at a time?

We're talking about two different kinds of causation. The "push" would be physics and chemistry. The "pull" would be conscious choice and directed action.

Assuming Sheldrake is being as clear as he can be, then, if we need backward causation from the mental side of things, it would seem to imply a future someone(s) looking back in time,

Yep.

as in hindsight vision is 20/20

Not necessarily. The source of causation may only come from a fraction of a second into the future.

What if they stop looking back? Is mental causation in the present, instead?

Probably it wouldn't be possible to stop looking back. Whitehead and Griffin's form of panpsychism sees the world as having two 'poles', mental and physical. Everything in the world has these two poles, but raw matter has a very weak mental pole. Humans have a stronger mental pole. They're two sides of the same coin. So asking if the future mind would stop looking back would kind of be like asking if physical causation would cease to function.
 
I think the basic idea is that consciousness, as an observer of physical reality, acts as a a compressor of possibilities. The future is open, and all possible outcomes are in superposition, like in quantum states. Consciousness does a observation/measurement at some point in the present time, and the wave function collapses at that point, leaving only one possibility for the state of the universe. That point becomes the past, frozen and fully determined, while the future is still open, maybe with less possibilities to be collapsed, awaiting for consciousness to observe it. In this sense, the mind/consciousness determines the past. And since every measurement reduces the future choices to be measured, there is a relationship between every subsequent measurements, which manifests as causality. OSIT
 
Approaching Infinity said:
as in hindsight vision is 20/20

Not necessarily. The source of causation may only come from a fraction of a second into the future.

That's exactly what I needed. I'm aware of the various studies demonstrating the "pre-attentive" awareness, so we're dealing with matters of scale, then, and with a basis in existing science. Neat!
 
Buddy said:
Everything I've ever learned about energy frequencies leads me to doubt that mental and material energy fields connect in any direct way, as if tying two pieces of string of unequal thicknesses together; rather, frequency bands run parallel with each other and there are "phase-like" transitions between energy states, or states of matter (solid to liquid to gas, for example). So, assuming mental causation exists, how would a future-to-past mental energy flow attract a past-to-future material energy flow in a way that the meaning of "cause" can apply?

One way to look at it might be to think of thought in terms of a kind of an electromagnetic signal that communicates to a living physical apparatus that is tuned to receive it. I would think that a physical receiving apparatus (based on cause and effect principles) is the key thing here. The receiver would be needed to mix or bring the "mental energy fields", or communication, from the acausal realm (the world of meanings) or (the future?) into the actual present moment. The link between the two might be our perception or awareness that can 'rotate' out of one stream or realm into the other. FWIW.
 
mkrnhr said:
I think the basic idea is that consciousness, as an observer of physical reality, acts as a a compressor of possibilities. The future is open, and all possible outcomes are in superposition, like in quantum states. Consciousness does a observation/measurement at some point in the present time, and the wave function collapses at that point, leaving only one possibility for the state of the universe. That point becomes the past, frozen and fully determined, while the future is still open, maybe with less possibilities to be collapsed, awaiting for consciousness to observe it. In this sense, the mind/consciousness determines the past. And since every measurement reduces the future choices to be measured, there is a relationship between every subsequent measurements, which manifests as causality. OSIT

I was just thinking about this and how it relates to teleology, mental/physical poles, etc. This is the way I see it at the moment.

Take two points, A and B. A is the 'initial' state of the cosmos, raw physical matter (let's say 1st density). B is the telos or aim: unified consciousness (this follows the progression Nagel notes of the universe seemingly awakening, becoming collectively aware of itself first with individual conscious beings, then ones who can share culturally, so maybe it ties in with the idea of collective memory complexes somewhere along the way; let's say 7th density is the ultimate telos). B acts as an attractor on A. The universe will tend towards this goal, producing first life and consciousness (2D), then rational beings (3D), then perhaps social memory complexes (4D), etc. But the path by which the ultimate goal is reached isn't deterministic, as Nagel points out. It's not just one line that connects A to B, but a whole web of countless pathways. At first, there is something like infinite potential for future states. But as soon as one state 'solidifies' or 'collapses', that limits the number and probability of future states. Future potentials will to some degree depend on the conditions at any given moment. So once some elements form water, their future states become less open, less plastic. Water is more likely to be water in the next instant of the universe than hydrogen and oxygen gases. It's similar at higher levels of complexity, say, with evolution. At each stage, there are certain possible future states (species), but conditions may limit the future states that are immediately possible (like extinction). If humans die off, that limits the possibilities of rational beings in the immediate future, but still leaves it open as a possibility further on in the future, just like there is the possibility that those hydrogen and oxygen atoms will engage in some chemical reaction to free them up.

It's the same if I take my own individual life. Right now, the chances of me becoming a professional figure skater in the next 6 seconds are slim to none. That future state is a very weak attractor. But if I start practicing tomorrow, and keep practicing, that future becomes more and more likely. An accident in which I lose both my legs will pretty effectively prune that branch of possibilities, however. That's just one minor possibility though. It's a lot scarier to think in Gurdjieff's terms of our whole branch of life being pruned.

And all this might tie in with mental causation and the future. The 'future mind' (B) pulls on the initial 'sleeping matter' (A) through one big but hazy field of probability. Between A and B there is the greatest number of potentials (all potentials, in fact). But the further you telescope in on the picture, the less potentials you have (e.g., it seems to me that there's more potential in a million years of evolution than there is in 1 second of the life of a single organism--the organism will be pretty much the same in 1 second). So it may be a matter of scale. The 'long view' of ultimate mental causation operates over vast stretches of 'time', with vast numbers of probabilities. And it may be that at our level, mental causation is similarly telescoped. We direct conscious choice and action through a very narrow window, aware of a very small number of probabilities. If I see B as an attractor on A, it makes sense for me to see human mental causation in similar terms, but on a smaller scope. So Sheldrake's idea makes sense to me: that human mental causation takes place from a mere fraction of a second in the future (this is one explanation for all those studies showing that we act before being aware of the conscious choices--it may be that the conscious choice is made in the future, which then shows up as physical traces in the body). But by gaining knowledge, we may thereby expand that window, become aware of more probabilities, and make better-informed choices.
 
kenlee said:
One way to look at it might be to think of thought in terms of a kind of an electromagnetic signal that communicates to a living physical apparatus that is tuned to receive it. I would think that a physical receiving apparatus (based on cause and effect principles) is the key thing here. The receiver would be needed to mix or bring the "mental energy fields", or communication, from the acausal realm (the world of meanings) or (the future?) into the actual present moment. The link between the two might be our perception or awareness that can 'rotate' out of one stream or realm into the other? FWIW.

I think that's a pretty good way of looking at it. And it would depend on our 'receivership-capability'--how much of the 'future' we're actually able to receive and act on in the present moment. When we act mechanically, we're using very little of this information--just cause-and-effect physical causation with some 'adaptive unconscious' steering to keep us going. One (almost) deterministic future state pulling us from the previous one. But when we expand our knowledge, become aware of new possibilities, that opens up doorways that were previously closed, or simply unimagined. Maybe it enhances the signal from new (and more distant) attractors. Kind of like receiving advice from yourself 20 years in the future, as opposed to you 5 minutes from now...
 
Cognition

Even though the most primitive forms of sensory consciousness (subjective experience) pose a problem for the typical scientific account of reality, the human faculties of "thought, reasoning, and evaluation" pose an even bigger one. Our senses and instincts give us information and experience about the immediate world around us, but our cognitive abilities give us the ability to transcend this, and "to explore the larger objective reality of nature and value." It seems natural to assume that only a conscious being can reason; that cognitive abilities are something over and above simple consciousness, but dependent on them as a base. But it is our very capacity to "transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case" that creates the problem.

What does it mean to transcend subjectivity and discover what is objectively the case? Well, we naturally accept that we do these things every day: to form true beliefs about the world, logic, maths, the right course of action. We question our senses (thought perhaps not often enough) when we see something extraordinary, like a magician sawing his stage partner in half. Sometimes we even discover the truth with that telltale sign of mental discovery: Aha! Rather than simply seeing symbols on the page, we recognize them to be mathematical equations. We know that one set is correct (3+5=8) and another is false (3+5=9). I know that I'm infallible (I might misread a symbol or take a staged even as reality, make a mistake in a series of additions, mess up my logic, etc.), but despite these errors, our mental faculties still have this remarkable ability to give us real, objective knowledge. It's not a random throw of the dice ("this statement has a 8.725% chance of being true"); it's either true or it isn't. Either the answer is '8' or it's not. What ISN'T certain is that we'll recognize the truth immediately. It's not always as easy as simple math.

The way we acquire knowledge is with certain ways of thinking, norms of thought. We know that there is a correct answer to "3+5=" and that an apple is not an orange. We come to such conclusions while unconsciously (most of the time) accepting certain assumptions: that there is such thing as a right answer, that we can discover it and know it to be true, that certain categories do not overlap, etc. We're responding to values and reasons that we apprehend with our minds (e.g., this is RIGHT for this REASON). For us, the world seems actually real, and correct conclusions seem actually true. Either this is all an illusion (nothing is true, 3+5 only seems to equal 8) or we have to conceive of how this came to be--how we are able to 'think beyond' the starting points of mere sensation, perception, and emotion.

Think about it this way. It's possible to sense, perceive, and feel without ever engaging in active thought. I see a tree, smell it, feel panic when a heavy branch falls and I lurch out of the way. But when I think about the tree, how it grew from an acorn, how it will soon lose its leaves, and afterward try to discover how and why the branch fell, I'm doing something entirely different than merely living life as a conscious subject. Language--"a system of concepts that enables us to understand reality"--is part of this problem. With language, we use symbols to represent concepts, play around with them, share them, compare them, come to conclusions, etc.

Evolution may be able to explain the starting points of consciousness (however difficult this may be, but for the sake of argument let's take it as given and assume we can explain the origin of consciousness)--simply as habits that help us survive, with some sufficient level of accuracy. Animals can survive based on this "world of appearances." They see the tree, rest in its shade, eat its fruit, avoid stalking predators, etc., but without any idea of a more objective reality. They don't arrive at any truth beyond this raw sense data--they don't consciously recognize mathematical truths, logic, or question their grasp on reality to arrive at a more accurate and all-encompassing worldview. The fact that we can do this requires explanation. So, is it at all likely that natural selection should select for abilities to discover truth with reason, extending "vastly beyond the initial appearances"--theoretical pursuits that were unimaginable in the prehistoric past? And how can reason be understood naturalistically?

If there is no real objective 'reality,' there's no problem. "The 'worlds' in question are all just human construction"--including laws of physics and chemistry, logic, ethics. This is easy for something like language, or even ethics, where the 'norms' seem to be entirely arbitrary depending on the group in question. Different languages and systems of ethics are internally coherent--there are rules that are followed, right and wrong ways of spelling and acting in social situations--but it's easy to see these as dependent on subjective or social factors. But it's very difficult to accept this kind of relativism for something like science, which seems to be universally true. Chemistry is also internally coherent, following a set of rules (e.g., H20 always makes water), but this seems universally true, part of the very way the cosmos is structured. If we were to abandon any and all sense of reality, we'd end up having to abandon evolutionary theory along with everything else. This seems extreme and unlikely: we need to accept at least some realism to the cosmos. And as long as we do, evolutionary theory has to explain the success of our cognition if it is going to have any claim of being objectively true.

So how did we become adapted with the ability to discover "true theories about a law-governed natural order that there was no adaptive need to understand earlier"? (Because, surely, the entire animal kingdom has got along just fine without such abilities.) In the wild, it's adaptive to generalize from experience and let experience confirm or disconfirm those generalizations. 'This plant is good to eat, this one makes me sick.' 'This animal is easy prey, this one will eat me.' 'This place was safe to sleep, but now it's not.' And so on. These natural inclinations might dispose organisms to "maintain logical consistency in belief," the way we do when we refine our intellectual beliefs according to some standard, eliminating contradictions. 'This fits, this does not.' 'This theory worked, but not with this piece of data.' Etc.

It's also adaptive to correct one's own perceptions based on those of others, thus disposing organisms to recognize other minds. Animals learn from their parents and social groups. It's adaptive for them to do so--if they didn't accept the reality of other beings like themselves, they'd die pretty quickly. The appearance of language would greatly expand these abilities. With it, we can now share knowledge, bounce ideas off each other, decide on beliefs based on their consistency. Complex scientific theories are mere extensions of this ability to learn from experience--"our own and that of others." It's still difficult to account for language (or "the capacity for nonperceptual representation through language, resulting in the ability to grasp logically complex abstract structures"), but perhaps not impossible.

That's the standard evolutionary account, at least. And even if we accept moral realism (the objective existence of moral truths), evolutionary theory might be able to account for our ability to recognize moral truths. Innate desires and aversions would dispose organisms (along with the avoidance of inconsistency) to a larger the larger domain of practical reason: action based on values. 'I don't like this, so I avoid it.' 'This gives me strength, so I'll seek it out.' So animals form a sort of proto-system of action based on values. Once reason comes along in humans, we then have the ability to use these mental functions to arrive at greater truths and values. 'This is right, so I will do it.' 'This isn't, so I won't.'

So, the initial capacities of both (morals and reality-detection) may have helped our ancestors survive, but they also allowed them to transcend their initial function. So an initial ability to form consistent beliefs about the world transcended that ability, to the ability to form consistent and true beliefs about the world, regardless of whether or not this enhanced fitness for survival or not. This is where things get a little to far-fetched. How could genetic variation and mutations (remember, DNA codes for physical structures, that's it) account for consciousness, "desire and aversion, awareness of other minds, symbolic representations, and logical consistency, all having essential roles in the production of behavior." Something's missing, here. Cognition seems to follow some other set of rules and standards that those afforded by the physical evolution of genes.

But let's continue assuming that evolution can account for consciousness. Compare our everyday attitude toward our reasoning to that of our perception and instincts. With vision, we know it responds to stimuli that were important to our ancestors' survival (e.g., fast-flying objects, snakes, etc.). We know we can rely on our vision to alert us of dangers, direct us to food, etc., but also that it can give "misleading, selective, or distorted" information. That snake might be a twig. That apple might be plastic. Same with our intuition about probabilities and some value judgments (e.g., for revenge). "We may come to understand those intuitions as rough but useful [automatic] responses shaped by natural selection to a fitness-enhancing form in the circumstances in which our forebears lived and died." In other words, they get the job done, but they sometimes need correction or inhibition. How many times have we regretted something said in the heat of emotion, or been "sure" someone has wronged us, only to find out it was just a misunderstanding? We couldn't do those things without reason.

Our immediate perceptions and our reason do have something in common, though. We immediately rely on both of them. We see a tree and know it's a tree; we come to a logical conclusion and know it's true. With vision, even though we can second-guess ourselves, we are reasonably justified in trusting our sight, because evolution has shaped it to be more or less accurate. But with reason, we grasp the truth directly, not from the outside, the way we see the appearances of the world and even our abilities to see these appearances. When we question our vision, or an emotionally inspired course of action, we're observing certain parts of ourselves in a detached way, with a part of ourselves that we DON'T observe in a detached way. When we justify our conclusions about reality, we're basing that justification on systematic reasons, not the authority of biology (or even culture). Biology gave us the ability to judge distance, but we can also measure that distance (and correct or refine our initial guess); biology (or culture) may incite us to avenge the death of a loved one, but we can also check our feelings to confirm or deny the guilt of the accused.

We can justify our senses in terms of biology. 'I know evolution shaped my vision to be more or less accurate, so I know what I'm seeing has a pretty good probability of being true.' But we can't pull back and reconfirm our reason in the same way. If we could, it wouldn't be reason at all; nor would logic be logic, or math math--these things can't be true with such doubts and qualifications. Just picture it: 'I know evolution shaped my reason to be more or less accurate, because it helped my ancestors survive, so I know that 2+2 has a pretty good probability of being true.' No, I know 2+2 to be true regardless of my biology.

When evolutionists try to account for reason, they end up using circular thinking. They argue that natural selection led to reason, but they have to presuppose reason's validity in order to do so. Evolutionary thinking wouldn't be possible in the first place, if it were not for the existence and reality of reason itself. And biology can't explain how we come to conclusions that are not biologically based. Evolutionary theory may be able to explain why we come to more or less accurate conclusions about the world, through inheritance of the necessary innate dispositions, "but if I am right to think that we can't regard [our cognitive capacities] merely as further instinctive dispositions, some other explanation is needed of what these capacities are." Reason can't be seen just as an extension of mere consciousness. "Reason can take us beyond the appearances because it has completely general validity, rather than mere local utility." There's a difference between having four apples in front of you, and knowing that 2+2=4. Biology can account for me seeing four apples, but that's about it. Truth by reason can't be confirmed or disconfirmed by any external view of itself. This was Descartes' insight--the irreducibility of mind and reason.

So, what exactly is this faculty of reason that allows us to "escape the world of appearance … into the world of objective reality," and how can biology make sense of it, if at all? Sense perception connects us with reality indirectly (and passively); reason connects us with the truth directly (and actively). When I see a tree, it's more accurate to say that my visual system passively becomes aware of it (and that this helps me to survive in the world). But when I "see" a contradiction in my beliefs (e.g., I'm driving south and the sun rises to my right), I grasp this truth directly. I don't reject contradictions because I have some kind of logical phobia and instinct for revulsion at encountering bad logic. I reject it simply because I see that it is impossible.

As Nagel describes it, "In ordinary perception, we are like mechanisms governed by a (roughly) truth-preserving algorithm. But when we reason, we are like a mechanism that can see that the algorithm it follows is truth-preserving." That is, there is an outside observer, a part of the self that observes another part of the self. The impressions we take in prior to submitting them to reason and reflection can only give a "partial and perspectival view of the world." But with reason and imagination, we can construct a larger picture that takes those limited perspectives and puts them into perspective--a view that contains and accounts for the parts. Of course, such a process is highly fallible, but we couldn't even begin to attempt doing something of the sort without the deeply ingrained sense that reason is real.

Reason, according to Nagel,"is what is to allow oneself to be guided by the objective truth, rather than just by one's impressions." If I acted automatically, and solely based on my own impressions, I would have a hard time in life. I'd probably have gotten in a lot more fights, bitten far more plastic fruits, and voted in a lot more elections. This is what we need to explain in order to understand human reason as a part of the natural order: our ability to consciously control our beliefs and conducts based on reasons. 'I can't be anti-war and support a pro-war president, because that would be contradictory.' 'I know this can't be a tree because real trees' leaves fall off in winter.' Just as I can imagine a brain state without a mental state (suggesting that the mental state is 'something more'), I can imagine behaviour and belief formation without any reference to reasons or conscious control (suggesting that reason is 'something more').

So, like consciousness seems to be a development of biology, reason seems to be a development of consciousness. "The great cognitive shift is an expansion of consciousness from the perspectival form contained in the lives of particular creatures to an objective, world-encompassing form that exists both individually and [between individuals]. It was originally a biological evolutionary process, and in our species it has become a collective cultural process as well. Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself."

In other words, consciousness started out as a fairly passive, subjective factor in individuals' lives and their evolution. But as beings became more complex, this ability became able to take in more of reality, to correct for the errors found in those early forms. And we became able to share our knowledge, to connect with others. If the goal of the cosmos were to create conscious, rational beings capable of understanding themselves and the cosmos, it's easy to see. Raw matter can't just acquire full reason--that would be like the Big Bang or creationism--something out of nothing. It needs to develop, first into organisms with primitive sensations, then with more advanced organs that give a relatively good perspective on the world, then with minds that are self-aware and can self-correct, coming to know the truth about reality.

So, not only do we need a theory that explains the emergence of the first self-reproducing organisms from a lifeless universe; not only do we need to explain their development and increasing complexity; not only do we need to explain the existence of consciousness in some of these organisms and the role it plays in their lives; but we also need to explain how consciousness developed into "an instrument of transcendence that can grasp objective reality and objective value."

The existence of reason implies certain things about the world (just like the existence of consciousness does). It implies the existence of objective, mind-independent truths capable of being grasped: factual truths about the world (e.g., scientific laws); eternal and necessary truths (e.g., logic and maths); evaluative and moral truths. But these truths don't just exist somewhere 'out there' (e.g., in God's mind). Reason also implies the ability to collectively come to beliefs about these truths, even if some mistakes are inevitable. But we don't just come to certain beliefs and lock them away in drawers. Those beliefs can actually influence our actions (the third implication). And fourth, these mental processes are inseparable from biological processes.

Something about the cosmos must explain how such beings came to be--some possibilities "latent in the nature of things" that make it not just an accident. We need something to explain Being and Becoming. Looking at the reductive options, it's even more difficult to imagine proto-rational bits making up reason than it is to imagine proto-mental bits making up consciousness. The 'mind as computer' metaphor ignores subjectivity, directed behaviour, and understanding. Emergence seems more likely, with reason as an irreducible faculty of of the emergent conscious mind. And as for the Becoming answer (cause-and-effect, teleology, divine intervention), again, it would have to explain why exactly that form of reason appeared in complex beings, unless we're willing to accept that the development of reason was a total fluke.

Even if a theory seems able to give a good explanation of the early stages of the universe, life and consciousness, if it can't explain the later stages, we should be skeptical of how well it really does explain those early stages. It makes more sense to speculate that some tendencies pointing in the direction of the later stages (like reason) have been at work since the beginning. This makes a teleological explanation a natural choice.

Roger White makes an interesting argument. It goes something like this: biological life really looks like it's a product of intentional design. But the idea of a designer is unscientific. Therefore, there must be a rational physical explanation, something that made life likely and not simply a result of chance. (How could chance result in something that looks so much like design?) But when it comes down to it, there's really no different between chance and a 'non-intentional bias' in the universe (i.e., a rational physical explanation for how life came to be so spectacular). The possibility that life was created intentionally might possibly rule out chance as an option, since it would better explain the design-like features. But just because 'design' trumps 'chance', it does NOT follow that a non-intentional account is at all more likely than chance. In other words, this is what these types of thinkers are doing: they're saying that A (design) is a better explanation than B (chance), because it explains things better. But C (non-intentional bias) is more scientific than A (design). Therefore, since A trumps B, and C is more scientific than A, we can do away with options A and B. But you can't do away with B. It only fails in relation to A (design). In fact, according to White, life is no more likely to have come from a non-intentional bias than by chance, because a non-intentional bias can go in any direction. There's nothing controlling or limiting the outcomes, so the appearance of life is no more likely than anything else.

A natural teleological explanation might avoid this problem, by explaining why certain restrictions apply to what is likely to occur (i.e., life, as opposed to other possibilities), without reference to intentions or motives. These likely outcomes, or goals (the particular higher forms of organization in the world), would also probably have some sort of inherent value, which is why they would qualify as preferred goals, or telos (ultimate aims). In Nagel's words, the laws of nature may be "biased toward the marvellous." But this means that some natural laws operate over periods of time throughout history. This is a scientific no-no, because the known laws of physics are presumed to be timeless, stretching universally and unchangingly through time and space. Temporal laws would mean that there are fundamental laws that change, or influence the universe differently at different points along the way, based on how the present relates to the future. That's a radical idea.

Summing up, the alternatives leave much wanting. The cause-and-effect option is too accidental, and the divine intervention option "pushes teleology outside of the natural order." Nagel prefers "an immanent, natural explanation." On the physical level, such a natural teleology would require two things: (1) "that the nonteleological and timeless laws of physics … are not fully deterministic. Given the physical state of the universe at any moment, the laws of physics would have to leave open a range of alternative successor states, presumably with a probability distribution over them." In other words, there can't just be one single deterministic timeline that plays out like clockwork. Teleological laws need probabilities in order to operate; the universe needs to be structured in such a way that different paths can be taken in order to reach particular goals. (2) Some possible futures will be more eligible than others, namely the ones that lead to more complex systems (the goals) even further on in the future. These 'in-between' stages (i.e., not yet conscious) would have to have a higher probability of coming into being than they would simply based on chance physics and chemistry. They'd be more probable simply because they are on the path toward a certain outcome, since they have a higher 'velocity' to the end goal.
 

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