karma from progenitors?

This discussion reminds me of the genograms that the author of Children of Trauma did in that book. She said:

In doing genogram (family mapping) work with couples over the years, I have seen consistent, repetitive themes emerge and re-emerge in interactions and conflicts that had begun in earlier generations. Themes of distance, conflict, enmeshment, alcoholism, abuse, affairs, divorce, depression, financial instability, inability to bond, suicidal ideation, etc., seemed to show themselves in generation after generation. One might ask, as one woman did, “How can this happen? How could I have known? It wasn’t like that between us before commitment.

We tend to seek out when choosing a partner, what is familiar in much the same way that someone from another country might seek out others with the same customs, language and values. We learned how to survive and adapt in dysfunctional families through use of particular defenses, nonverbal communication, cues, mannerisms and adaptive behaviors. In our families of origin, we develop many beliefs about ourselves in relation to each other and the world. We are allowed expression of some emotions and not others. We seek out partners who allow us to “be at home” and continue these beliefs and expressions on the one hand, while we continue to attempt resolution for the once-discarded child.

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She encourages her patients to do family research in order to complete the genogram. The patterns revealed are mind boggling, almost like a dominant inheritance. Then she quotes "McGoldrick, M., and Gerson, R., Genograms in Family Assessment, New York: W. W. Newton, 1985" as one of her sources. But I never heard of that book before until now that I made a search on genogram on her book.

obyvatel said:

On both my father's and mother's sides of the family, I have observed some patterns that have been repeating at least for 3 generations. One painful example is the broken relationship between two siblings who were at one time so close to each other that people knowing them at the time would not believe that a day would come when they would not even see each other's faces ever again. Happened to my maternal grandfather (A) and his brother (B). In the next generation both A's two children AA and AB(my mother and her brother) as well as B's two children BA and BB suffered the same fate. In the third generation, BA's two children BAA and BAB had the same fate. The precipitating events leading to this outcome haven't been that serious - not any of the usual stuff like property disputes and the like. Also it didn't look like a cumulative effect of small disagreements boiling over. So overall, I do not know how to explain this in any way other than some type of "family karma" to be understood in the sense that Gurdjieff used the term.

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Fascinating, obyvatel.

Personally, I think there is merit to the idea that karma is somehow shared 'inter-generationally'. There is the genetic factor but also the psychological wounds that are passed to children, who are conditioned and in turn pass it on to their own children, and so on. I believe that the Cs once referred to karma as unresolved emotions, which makes sense because emotions that control you will lead you to repeat the same mistakes and circumstances, as if by 'destiny'. And if we share similar emotional wounds to our parents we would end up facing similar challenges. Until somebody does the Work on themselves and become aware enough to stop the cycle.

On top of that, I think that the idea of family morphogenetic fields can be applicable as well.

I can see in myelf traits of my father that are almost like a 'curse' and that I have had to learn to control to not make the same mistakes. For example, he is a charmer and a poet, and because of that he has been able to get away with a lot of misdeeds, such as being a womanizer and destroying the lives of many people. I grew up thinking I was the shy type and despising my father's lifestyle, so I tried to be exactly the opposite. Yet as I grew older I saw in myself that without paying attention I could easily turn out to be the same, because there is a strong impulse for romance and sex in me. I have also surprised myself by being, in some social contexts, 'charming' in ways that remind me of my father's 'style'. It's almost as if a switch was turned on inside me at some point when becoming an adult, and I realized I could be quite the opposite from shy or introvert, rather spontaneously. So I need to keep a watch on myself constantly to not let my father's 'curse' get me or get others.

As a curious side note, I began reading this thread yesterday and then I went to watch Cloud Atlas. Those who have watched it I'm sure will get the connections.

Windmill knight said:

Personally, I think there is merit to the idea that karma is somehow shared 'inter-generationally'. There is the genetic factor but also the psychological wounds that are passed to children, who are conditioned and in turn pass it on to their own children, and so on. I believe that the Cs once referred to karma as unresolved emotions, which makes sense because emotions that control you will lead you to repeat the same mistakes and circumstances, as if by 'destiny'. And if we share similar emotional wounds to our parents we would end up facing similar challenges. Until somebody does the Work on themselves and become aware enough to stop the cycle.

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This is a pretty interesting topic and I agree there's probably merit to it. The formation of our self concepts and world view, and our resulting behavior is intimately tied to our past and until we really understand the situation we're in, we'll continue to perpetuate it. It's usually rare to know the specific circumstance of past lives or and it may be difficult to discover how family dynamics of our ancestors affect current situations, but I think the present (knowing our programs) can reveal a lot to 'heal the past'. If we remain tied to certain situations or circumstance, there's probably a lesson waiting to be learned, or so I think.

Perhaps doing some genealogy research and looking into what was going on socially during our ancestor's times would be a useful exercise?

Interesting topic, it reminds us that Karma could be more of a complex explaination of cause and effect. I often feel like this forum is a good tool of changing the dynamic of karma not only in ourselves but the world at large. Possibly, this is what is meant when the cassiopaeans say "Creating a Conduit".

Fascinating topic, and one that's been on my mind for a long time as well. Seeing and being enmeshed in the dynamics of my family through at least three generations and knowing some of the history of further generations past, I've seen traits, behavioural patterns and belief systems passed down, often unconsciously and quite automatically from one generation to the next, even in the face of family member's saying 'I won't end up like that or be like ___'.

I've often thought of it as either a combination of genetic predispositions but tied together with environmental cues and influences and that at some level I may have asked for these particular lessons or there is some underlying connection between certain family member's that cause them to reenact possible past life relationships. But what's interesting is to see the incredible disconnect from each other. More often than not, it's relationships between siblings and also parent's and children that often fall apart and each ends up blaming and resenting the other for past hurts yet refuse to sit down and communicate with one another to air it out. Pride or unwillingness to take that first step as being the overt trait I see.

There is somewhat of an unconscious fear that I will repeat the same things and alienate myself in the same way but am trying to find ways of overcoming this. More often than not, as WK put in sharing his story about his father - the behaviours that I promised myself I wouldn't repeat have always been there and only in recent years have I noticed how dominant a role they play in my life.

momo said:

Since family members have a right to be part of the system, exclusions disrupt the family. They unbalance the family equilibrium and a member of a subsequent generation may try to rectify the imbalance

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But in what way? How does the newer generation balance out the belief systems and patterns of the past especially when our parents and grandparents have such a huge unconscious influence on how we turn out and perceive the family system? Does rectifying it involve the previous generations or does the new generation decide to break away from the pattern and forge new ones. And if so, does it have to be on a collective basis or an individual basis - or does doing it on an individual basis like how we are working on ourselves affect this 'morphic field' in some way that causes a reverberation.

Turgon said:

momo said:

Since family members have a right to be part of the system, exclusions disrupt the family. They unbalance the family equilibrium and a member of a subsequent generation may try to rectify the imbalance

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But in what way? How does the newer generation balance out the belief systems and patterns of the past especially when our parents and grandparents have such a huge unconscious influence on how we turn out and perceive the family system? Does rectifying it involve the previous generations or does the new generation decide to break away from the pattern and forge new ones. And if so, does it have to be on a collective basis or an individual basis - or does doing it on an individual basis like how we are working on ourselves affect this 'morphic field' in some way that causes a reverberation.

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I think that what has been said on this forum over and over again would also apply here. We cannot change anyone else, only ourselves. Knowing what we have found out about how the brain works (System 1 and System2) and how we have so many programs running that were instilled in us by are parents, who had these programs instilled in them by there parents, and so on and so forth, it is by learning about ourselves and getting control of these programs that is going to be able to stop what is going on with your family - but only for yourself. You can be the one who stops these things and then, maybe, others will observe you and want to know how they can change, too - or maybe not. But that is not your problem. That is their problem. But the karma stops with you and your future.

As far as affecting the "morphic field", someone else will have to answer that. But since all is connected, according to the Cs, maybe it will affect it.

Nienna said:

I think that what has been said on this forum over and over again would also apply here. We cannot change anyone else, only ourselves. Knowing what we have found out about how the brain works (System 1 and System2) and how we have so many programs running that were instilled in us by are parents, who had these programs instilled in them by there parents, and so on and so forth, it is by learning about ourselves and getting control of these programs that is going to be able to stop what is going on with your family - but only for yourself. You can be the one who stops these things and then, maybe, others will observe you and want to know how they can change, too - or maybe not. But that is not your problem. That is their problem. But the karma stops with you and your future.

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It's difficult to put into words right now without hijacking this thread, but I'm seeing a bit how I've connected self-importance with a saviour program, mixed with a natural tendency to want to help my family out and relieve some of their suffering. They may not be genuinely asking for help or there are important but painful lessons that I shouldn't be interfering with, and instead work towards learning those very similar lessons myself.

I'm wondering too if part of the 'like attract's like' inter-generational karma has to do with people who have similar lesson profiles are then grouped together. Maybe even as an opportunity to learn from one another if the individuals start to perceive it that way, osit.

I think that what has been said on this forum over and over again would also apply here. We cannot change anyone else, only ourselves. Knowing what we have found out about how the brain works (System 1 and System2) and how we have so many programs running that were instilled in us by are parents, who had these programs instilled in them by there parents, and so on and so forth, it is by learning about ourselves and getting control of these programs that is going to be able to stop what is going on with your family - but only for yourself. You can be the one who stops these things and then, maybe, others will observe you and want to know how they can change, too - or maybe not. But that is not your problem. That is their problem. But the karma stops with you and your future.

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Not only yourself I think - every single person who succeeds you in the coming generations, if you take Psyche's quote of Gurdjieff at face value. Perhaps a part of the way we redeem our cruel or destructive parents is by nullifying their entropic effects on the world by saving future generations from it. In a sense I think it's a gesture to the Universe, saying, "see, this genetic/epigenetic/psychological composition is still capable of playing a creative role in the cosmos!" Given that subsequent generations would also be healed by your conscious work, the growth/creation of the astral body in an individual pursuing the work also in effect nurtures and improves the genetic body as well (which is the family, its genetic/epigenetic/psychological conditioning, and the human race at large.)

Turgon said:

But in what way? How does the newer generation balance out the belief systems and patterns of the past especially when our parents and grandparents have such a huge unconscious influence on how we turn out and perceive the family system? Does rectifying it involve the previous generations or does the new generation decide to break away from the pattern and forge new ones. And if so, does it have to be on a collective basis or an individual basis - or does doing it on an individual basis like how we are working on ourselves affect this 'morphic field' in some way that causes a reverberation.

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Sheldrake describes morphic fields as dynamic information fields which are probabilistic in nature. These information fields organize matter through genetic expression by acting like epigenetic (epi - above) influence. One analogical way to think about it is that morphic fields are like radio waves which can be received and expressed by tuned receivers. It has the additional property that once one receiver tunes into the field, as if a track or pathway is created in the field which makes it easier (in terms of energy expended) for other similar receivers to tune in. More the number of receivers tuning in and expressing the field, deeper and wider the track becomes.

At the neural level it is said neurons that fire together wire together. If the same neurons tend to fire and wire together, we have a habitual behavioral pattern represented by the characteristic neural firing pattern in the brain and body. In the case of an individual, to change a habit, the first step is to stop reacting in the same way which at the neural level means to inhibit the characteristic neural firing pattern by conscious effort. When this inhibition is repeated enough number of times, the old neural firing pattern gets weakened. Through similar conscious effort, new firing patterns can be initiated which would result in new neuronal connections leading to new behavior which when repeated often enough becomes new stable habit. Once it becomes a habit, it takes far less energy to maintain.

If we extend the above concept to morphic fields assuming that such fields exist outside the linear time we are familiar with, then what Gurdjieff said begins to make sense. An ancestral line shares at least certain genetic features which make them similar receivers of certain morphic fields. Family karma, which can be looked at as ancestral habit, then becomes repeated expression of the probabilistic morphic field in a particular way - etching deeper and deeper tracks in the field. Generations easily fall into these well worn tracks given the intrinsic property of the organism to conserve energy. To break this, it takes conscious effort (which means a lot of energy expenditure) to first recognize and then inhibit the habitual response and then change the response. Once new ways of expressing the morphic field is established, it could be possible that such new pathways etched into the field become accessible outside of linear time increasing the chances of being accessed by our ancestors. Thus the past can be repaired.

All this is conjecture - after all our 3D understanding is trapped in a concept of linear time. Not sure if this helps at all - so take fwiw.

This is a wonderful topic, because it allows to spin to the origin, where we and all are one.


If karma is put into context with the human machine I would think that
- since the machine comes into existence with the help of two human beings, and those two human beings individually have come into being based on the help of two further human beings, and so on until some kind of "beginning" (looking at it from 3D linear time) and
- since the genetic material as the core information for each of them "knowing" what to "express" has been directly passed on inside the cells of everyone involved,
there has to be a stronger correlation between humans that are related to each other and those who are not.
Thereby potentially a specific morphogenetic field is created by everyone involved over and across time?

And if one would try to analyze where each of the seven functions of the human machine have their connection with the mother, the father and the whole family tree - what would one get?
I guess it would be a mix of genetic factors, epigenetic factors and socialisation that really have a big influence on each of the functions, if not define big part of them.


On all that, one - in my opinion- could put the concept of "karma from progenitors".

What might be a dead end, though, is to look for the root of the problems one faces more in the family tree than within oneself.
As Nienna reminded us: we can only work on ourselves. And if you cannot find a trace of your ancestors in the outside world, acceptance of that fact is more likely part of the lesson. Acknowledging the family tree without knowing each branch, blossom and leaf in detail is not impossible.

As for the soul level, I am not sure why, but there is a strong intuitive feeling that tells me it is what the soul seeks as lesson that determines what situation the soul looks for when incarnating. Potentially this includes the whole picture described above, including the DNA, that might even be at the heart of this choice.
And I'm not saying the soul gets to choose, or can do this consciously, I really only have a feeling about this.

f karma is put into context with the human machine I would think that
- since the machine comes into existence with the help of two human beings, and those two human beings individually have come into being based on the help of two further human beings, and so on until some kind of "beginning" (looking at it from 3D linear time) and
- since the genetic material as the core information for each of them "knowing" what to "express" has been directly passed on inside the cells of everyone involved,
there has to be a stronger correlation between humans that are related to each other and those who are not.
Thereby potentially a specific morphogenetic field is created by everyone involved over and across time?

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Funny you would say that right now, considering this recent piece on SOTT:

http://www.sott.net/article/259374-We-are-all-related-to-Romans-Vikings-Egyptians-Attila-the-Hun ;)

Palinurus said:

f karma is put into context with the human machine I would think that
- since the machine comes into existence with the help of two human beings, and those two human beings individually have come into being based on the help of two further human beings, and so on until some kind of "beginning" (looking at it from 3D linear time) and
- since the genetic material as the core information for each of them "knowing" what to "express" has been directly passed on inside the cells of everyone involved,
there has to be a stronger correlation between humans that are related to each other and those who are not.
Thereby potentially a specific morphogenetic field is created by everyone involved over and across time?

Click to expand...

Funny you would say that right now, considering this recent piece on SOTT:

http://www.sott.net/article/259374-We-are-all-related-to-Romans-Vikings-Egyptians-Attila-the-Hun ;)

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funny indeed!
seems to contradict, I'll have to ponder about that for a bit.

thx for the info!

obyvatel said:

If we extend the above concept to morphic fields assuming that such fields exist outside the linear time we are familiar with, then what Gurdjieff said begins to make sense. An ancestral line shares at least certain genetic features which make them similar receivers of certain morphic fields. Family karma, which can be looked at as ancestral habit, then becomes repeated expression of the probabilistic morphic field in a particular way - etching deeper and deeper tracks in the field. Generations easily fall into these well worn tracks given the intrinsic property of the organism to conserve energy. To break this, it takes conscious effort (which means a lot of energy expenditure) to first recognize and then inhibit the habitual response and then change the response. Once new ways of expressing the morphic field is established, it could be possible that such new pathways etched into the field become accessible outside of linear time increasing the chances of being accessed by our ancestors. Thus the past can be repaired.

All this is conjecture - after all our 3D understanding is trapped in a concept of linear time. Not sure if this helps at all - so take fwiw.

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Thanks! Even thought it might be a work in progress, I think your explanation of Sheldrake's morphic fields brings a fuller understanding to the concept of inter-generational and individual karma and how it may actually operate. Much of the concepts running around about karma are usually cause and effect (samsara) based. An action causes a reaction to that event resulting in a subsequent effect or consequence. One of which is accumulating positive or negative karma. The Buddhists and Hindus seemed pretty suffice with this as the ultimate explanation of karma even though a few sects believe in some higher deity as controlling it or have dissected karma into classifications and types.

An interesting quote from Wikipedia:

Karma is not punishment or retribution but simply an extended expression or consequence of natural acts. Karma means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names the universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction, that governs all life. The effects experienced are also able to be mitigated by actions and are not necessarily fated. That is to say, a particular action now is not binding to some particular, pre-determined future experience or reaction; it is not a simple, one-to-one correspondence of reward or punishment.

Karma is not fate, for humans act with free will creating their own destiny. According to the Vedas, if one sows goodness, one will reap goodness; if one sows evil, one will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determines our future. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate response.

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Hmm... karma radiating like archetypal fractals until the power of choice makes a dent in its design. The push/pull of staying 'true' while creating anew from within the known reaching towards the unknown within the self. Everything would be connected, wouldn't it? The ole lost and found routine, locate and retrieve. Karma as the needle stitching the thread in the same design until a new pattern is desired, made and repeated by choice, but perhaps at different levels of the game? Wasn't there a line by the C's about how the individuated soul, if present, is reflected in the genetics? All sort of potential epigenetic triggers from family, friends, society and the environment, and still the pattern is found present from one generation to the next. Perhaps a catalytic push from one environment to another is one result of warfare? To help 'mix' things up a little? in thought, word and deed, and thus genetically as a reflection of the same? As some strands can be cut out, so can others be inserted or cut in, and perhaps our choice is merely at times one of acceptance? Allowing the game to change, personally and by the wings of the butterfly, to the tribe? Reverberations from other levels or dimensions as the new pattern collects the promising abiities learned and passes them along as things get unzipped and then zipped back up, in a new pattern.

What an extremely interesting thread! Thanks, obyvatel, for bringing it to my attention :).

To me it makes sense that a thing or person can be seen as an individual from one perspective or as part of a larger whole if looked at from a different perspective. Like a cell can be looked at in isolation but it can also be seen as part of an organ which can be looked at in isolation. But the organ can also be looked at as part of the person. So if something affects the cell it will have an impact on the cell but also on the organ and also on the person. Similarly it makes sense to me that we as individuals are part of a larger unit, a family or a country or a planet or a galaxy, etc. This example covers the concept that we're part of a greater whole across space. But according to the Cs we're suffering from an illusion of both space and time and the results of past-life-therapy ands spirit-release-therapy suggest that this being part of a greater whole also extends forwards and backwards in time.

I remember one time I was talking about this with my yogi. He told me that in the yogic understanding we inherit both the karma from previous lives (the soul line) and also the karma through our family (the blood line). So as I understand it, there has to some sort of fit between the two types of karma for the incarnation to take place - I guess you could call in morphogenetic resonance of the fields of the soul and the genes . He also said that whatever happens to one member of the family will have an effect on the karma of the entire family - in real time, so to speak. It's pretty obvious in the case where the father is an alcoholic and comes home and beats the mother. To the child this will obviously have a psychological impact. But it could also be the case that the child is now an adult and does not have any interaction with the parents. Even here, the actions of the parents will have a karmic effect on the adult child, just a what happens to one cell within an organ can effect what happens to another cell within the same organ. He did mention, however, that this effect is stronger the closer you are in physical proximity of one another. For instance, in India, where it's traditionally common for several generations to live together under one roof, the effect will be stronger whereas in modern societies where people move away from home and live by themselves the real time parental karma effect is reduced. I have been told that women who live together will tend to have synchronized menstruation cycles which points to an energy blend and alignment that increases with physical proximity. Extending this to the energy/emotional/karmic body could explain this effect.

Patrick Rodriguez who does SRT explained his understanding of karma on the SOTT Radio show. As I recall it, he said that karma was an energetic knot (and if emotions carry energy, it ties in nicely with the Cs linking karma to emotions) and once you untie the knot the karma is gone. If we look at karma effects affecting an entire family, then untying a karmic knot for one person would also benefit the entire lineage. I see this as somewhat similar to the case where releasing a spirit attachment from a previous life will have an energetic/emotional/karmic effect in this life. Furthermore, if we accept the premise that space and time are 3D illusions that we just have a hard time looking through, then it also makes sense that what happens in my subjective current time could effect my grandfather in my subjective past, if all there is is in fact just one big now.

The work of Gabor Maté in "When the Body Says No" is also highly linked to this topic, as I see it. I've unsuccessfully been trying to find the passage where describes a study to look at the ability to predict susceptibility to a certain decease in adult people based on the emotional states of their mothers when the mothers were infants. It turned out that there was a strong correlation. But what's more interesting is the fact just knowing about the mother's emotional state before the child was born was statistically significant in predicting whether or not a person would get the disease. I might be mixing up some of the particulars of the case but the point I'm trying to make is that there is empirical evidence of an intergenerational effect on the health of the child based on emotional factors that were registered before the child was even conceived.

In the field of astrology it's also interesting to look at horoscopes of siblings or parents, children and grand children. It's often the case that the same significant psychological or behavioral trait can be seen in the different horoscopes. However, the way that the trait manifests in the lives of the individuals may be slightly different even though the energetic signature is the same.

FWIW, these ruminations are of course subjective but I see them as painting a consistent picture from diverse sources that supports the hypothesis that not only does karma from progenitors exist but it is also possible to "release the karmic debt" across time at any given point in time. And as it's been said by others in this thread you are always the person to do it and the way of doing it is by changing the way that you react emotionally to things and consequently how you act at the present time. And what it boils down to is doing your Work so that your actions are not the result of programs or unconscious coping mechanisms, etc. So let's help our families and ourselves and release some karma :D