External Considering and Good Manners

Laura

Laura

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It has come to my attention of late that there are some individuals who claim to be "In The Work" (i.e. members of this forum) who do not really understand that a large part of External Considering is simply Good Manners.

Here is a short article on the topic:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-good-manners.htm

Good manners are a set of behaviors which mark someone as a civilized and cultured member of a society. Manners are usually taught from a very young age, with some people receiving additional training in etiquette, formal rules of conduct which apply to a variety of situations. Someone who lacks good manners may be considered boorish or inappropriate, and he or she may be at a disadvantage in many social situations.

The precise behaviors involved in good manners vary from place to place. Cultural traditions play an important role in manners, as do religious beliefs, social status, and economic class. What may be good manners in the White House may be considered grossly inappropriate in the Kremlin, while a standard of behavior which is perfectly acceptable in rural Greece might not be considered appropriate in a meeting with the Queen of England. As a general rule, people learn the manners which pertain to their particular social, economic, and cultural situation, and travelers must learn specific rules of conduct to fit in as they visit other societies.

Manners pertain from everything from how to introduce people to how to eat. While the precise nature of good manners may vary, the underlying principles do not. Good manners involve treating people with respect and courtesy, and in making sure that other people feel comfortable in a variety of situations. The old Biblical rule of “do as you would be done by” is sometimes used as an illustration of how manners are supposed to work.

Someone who has been properly trained will usually show more respect and deference to people who are older, as well as people who hold senior positions of authority. Good manners usually involves using respectful forms of address, such as formal titles, and being attuned to social situations to use the activities of others as behavioral cues. For example, someone who has never eaten a formal dinner can still demonstrate good manners by following the examples of others around the table.

Good manners go a long way in most societies. Mannerly people are more likely to get ahead in the world of business, and they also find themselves more commonly invited as guests and welcomed in society. In tense social situations, an awareness of good manners and social rules of behavior can help to diffuse tension, or at least to avoid a serious incident, and someone's attention to proper codes of conduct will be remembered. Travelers who take the time to learn about the codes of conduct in regions they are visiting will often find their way smoothed, and they will be welcomed back in the future.
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Another nice blurb about it from the net:

Good manners are a courtesy to others

In essence, good manners mean you don't make others uncomfortable around you. It's not just eating quietly and neatly, it's paying attention to the person who is talking to you, not gossiping, laughing even if the joke isn't funny (as long as it is not crude). Good manners are a form of caring.

They are also a bridge between cultures and lifestyles. Knowing the protocol of the other culture is a form of good manners. Allowing others to have the spotlight is a form of good manners.

If, by good manners, you are simply referring to table manners, put your napkin in your lap, use your silverware from the outside in, tear your bread in bite size pieces before you butter it, one piece at a time, and don't gulp. Chew with your mouth shut and wait until it is empty to talk. Eat small pieces at once so you are not looking like a cow chewing cud.

It's just a matter of making sure others are not uncomfortable around you. That's really the whole thing.
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So, I thought I'd start a discussion about it with a few guidelines.

At the most basic level, or at least the way in which we are concerned with the topic, good manners mean that you exhibit respect, care, and consideration for others.

As Gurdjieff points out, External Considering is all about making life easier for others AND yourself, and obviously, good manners go a long way toward helping you to have better relationships with people you know, and those you will meet.

So, here are a few ideas that come to mind:

Be courteous and respectful. Say "please" and "thank you," even to service personnel.

Found this one on the net and it is a nice refinement to your personality: You don't have to be a guy to hold a door open. If someone will be entering the door shortly after you, pause a second and hold it open. Say "After you, sir/ma'am," if the person is a stranger; if not, use his or her name in place of sir or ma'am. If you're unsure about whether or not the other person would appreciate having the door held open, ask politely. Say, "May I get the door for you?" This gives the other person an opportunity to accept or decline.

Speak politely and make the volume of your voice sufficient for your listeners to hear, but not too loud.

Don't interrupt or override another person when he or she is speaking. Practice being a good listener, and talk when it's your turn.

If you do need to interrupt, the phrase "excuse me" is the most polite way for you to enter the conversation.

Offer congratulations and praise to others who have achieved something and resist the temptation to tell your own praiseworthy story.

One of the easiest ways to be good mannered to project the image of a substantial person is to be silent and only talk when you have something important to say. This adds weight to your words.

Greet people. Whether you're in an informal or formal situation, acknowledging the presence of another person is a fundamental point of having good manners. Make any necessary greeting gestures. For informal greetings, how you physically interact with that person is your choice - you could do nothing at all, or offer a hug, handshake, or other greeting based on your relationship with that person. For formal greetings, though, it's appropriate to offer a handshake or bow your head forward slightly. If the person you're greeting formally goes in for a hug or an air kiss, accept it graciously.

If you're with two people who don't know each other, but you know both of them, it's your responsibility to make the intrudation of good manners. The person who is of higher social rank should have the second person introduced to him or her. Start out an introduction by naming the person of higher rank, then say "I'd like to introduce you to.." or "this is...", and name the person of lower rank. After the two people have greeted each other, offer some information about each person. For instance, you might say, "I've known Jessica since grade school" or "Mrs. Jones is my mother's dear friend." Whatever you say should be able to start or sustain a short conversation, which you're responsible for carrying.

When you're being introduced to someone else, look that person in the eyes and remember his or her name. After the introduction, greet the other person and say something like "How do you do?" or "It's a pleasure to meet you," and offer a handshake.

Control your temper. When you feel angry at someone, just stay calm and lower your voice if you want to say something. You can express your anger politely.

Keep in mind there is such a thing as being too polite. You should be kind, but don't be uptight with all the "polite" rules. As with everything else in this world, there is a happy medium between the two extremes.

Treat everyone you come across as you wish to be treated.

When you are in someone else's home or space, don't do anything unless you ask permission first.

Some quotes about good manners that seem appropriate to The Work:

Good manners sometimes means simply putting up with other people's bad manners.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.

Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use.
Emily Post

The hardest job kids face today is learning good manners without seeing any.
Fred Astaire

Good manners will open doors that the best education cannot.
Clarence Thomas

Good manners have much to do with the emotions. To make them ring true, one must feel them, not merely exhibit them.
Amy Vanderbilt

You can get through life with bad manners, but it's easier with good manners.
Lillian Gish

The test of good manners is to be able to put up pleasantly with bad ones.
Wendell Willkie

Good manners is the art of making those people easy with whom we converse. Whoever makes the fewest people uneasy is the best bred in the room.
Jonathan Swift
 
Thank you Laura!

It's easy to get discouraged by seeing all the vitriol around this safely anonymous internet we seem to have created...never mind the discourtesy exhibited in public, on the roads, etc.

I think it's human nature that if someone wrongs you we respond in kind. It takes a bigger person to not do that. By way of an example, if someone cuts you off in traffic, instead of getting angry I simply try to imagine what that person might be experiencing. It could be something tragic in their lives, but I don't know, so I will try to give the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think it's a coincidence that every major religion has some variation of the "ethic of reciprocity" as it's theme ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you"), not that I give much (or any) stock in the bible, but I do think and have always thought that anything less than that philosophy will eventually destroy the world.

I guess it's related to "an eye for an eye leaves the world blind"?
 
Thank you Laura for this thread. Having good manners can go a long way. In showing a little kindness, it can effect another person and ones self in a positive way. Greeting someone with a smile, a small gesture, can change the mood of one`s day. I notice that a lot of older people will acknowledge me with a "Good day". For me, it does make the day brighter when something as simple as holding a door open or letting someone go ahead of you in line at the supermarket because they have a youngster who is ancy. :D

Have a great day!
 
Hello :)

I think the idea of external consideration and how it relates to the work done on this forum is interesting. My understanding of external consideration is that sometimes you need to be considerate of other peoples self-importance. So if someone's rude to you, and you can see that it's because of their self-importance, you can just agree with them and walk away without getting upset and being rude back.

But that sort of half doesn't apply on this forum because if someone comes in and their self-importance comes through in their posts then they probably need to be made aware of it in order to do the work. This means that someone needs to politely and considerately explain to the person that they are self important, which is nearly impossible because self importance doesn't like to be told it's self important, unless it thinks self importance is a good thing... can you imagine that??? :shock:

Having said that, I think being polite and having good manners on this forum is EXTREAMLY important for progress. I think this because if there was a secret network of people on the forum who were trying to gain positions of authority in the wider "Cassiopaean" network in order to redirect and derail others who are honestly trying to do the work, then a simple environment of good manners and external consideration would make things somewhat difficult for them... OSIT.
 
In 4th Way parlance, this is the practice of taking others into account when acting. External considering involves making a realistic evaluation of another's situation and acting in ways which take this into account in a positive sense.

External considering is however not the same thing as being socially polite or considerate, although it may be expressed in this manner.

The key concept is to be aware of and to adapt oneself to the level of being and knowledge of others. Thus, external considering involves for example not talking about things which would simply offend others' beliefs or simply not be understood. External considering relates to an idea of general good will towards the environment, then in the sense of letting the environment be as it wishes and responding to its requests in a manner that honors its right to be as it will.

External considering is rooted in objective awareness of the environment. Its opposite, internal considering, is rooted in attachment to a subjective inner state, to one's own comfort of preconceptions or desires.

External and internal considering are not always outwardly distinguishable, although inwardly they are fundamentally different. One may for example be socially pleasing purely in order to reinforce one's own idea of oneself as a 'good person.' This is internal considering and preoccupation about how others/the self perceive the self.

Heres the link for more: _http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/External_and_Internal_Considering
 
I never understood how some people could have bad manners consistently. To me, it even seems to require more energy, like I'd have to go out of my way not to practice good manners. Even if someone doesn't understand the importance of External Consideration as defined here (or even know about it), it's really obvious that being polite and having good manners makes life easier for everyone.

Good manners/being polite is only part of External Considering - only one aspect of it, though a very basic and important one. But I feel it's just an essential part of regular life, as well, even for those NOT in the Work. I guess it comes down to the nature of the person who can live being constantly impolite and exhibiting bad manners all the time. I've know some people like that and it makes it really challenging to put up with them.
 
In Views from the Real World, Gurdjieff gives some examples of external considering, and he basically describes good manners. For example, he says that it is his own custom to sit cross-legged on the floor, but because he was in New York, he sat on a chair out of consideration for the customs of the people he was with. So I wouldn't say that external considering is not the same thing as being socially considerate. Being socially considerate is part of being externally considerate. Put simply, it would be bad form to start up a discussion on the follies of Catholicism while dining with your hardcore Catholic in-laws. However, if in the course of conversation you see that your in-laws like a challenging discussion, it may be appropriate to raise some 'points of debate.' It depends on the context.

Like Laura mentioned in her post, sometimes it's possible to show good manners even if you're not aware of the precise forms it takes, e.g., observing the manner of a formal dinner and adjusting your own behavior as you go. However, situations will come up where you'll have to ask. For example, say you enter someone's home. You see that your host is wearing shoes. So you might assume it's okay to wear your outside shoes throughout the house. But those might be inside shoes. So you ask if you should remove your shoes. I've been shocked to see people enter someone's house and just start walking around without taking a few seconds to either observe if this is acceptable or to ask the homeowner what would be appropriate.
 
Let's not forget to have good manners, and not judge anybody in our minds. Let's have the good manners, but not only as a mask to get it off after and gossip with somebody about what happened.
 
DreamGod said:
In 4th Way parlance, this is the practice of taking others into account when acting. External considering involves making a realistic evaluation of another's situation and acting in ways which take this into account in a positive sense.
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Exactly, and thanks for putting it in very direct and simple language.

DreamGod said:
External considering is however not the same thing as being socially polite or considerate, although it may be expressed in this manner.
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Yes. The difference is in the intent as you note below.

DreamGod said:
External and internal considering are not always outwardly distinguishable, although inwardly they are fundamentally different. One may for example be socially pleasing purely in order to reinforce one's own idea of oneself as a 'good person.' This is internal considering and preoccupation about how others/the self perceive the self.
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Exactly so. External considering is not being "fake" it is being sincere TOWARD others to the level of their being and understanding and awareness.

The problem that I'm seeing - even with some long-time members (and here I'm speaking about direct social interactions) - is that they act like they were never taught good manners at all. I mean, the most basic civilized behavior that one should be expected to exhibit is just totally lacking. Things like being pleasant in difficult situations, not moping or acting sulky; things like being in someone else's space and "taking over" and trying to dominate; things like speaking and acting insultingly, or obstructively; ignoring the most basic, and I mean BASIC, politeness, appreciation, etc. It's just been shocking to witness. And even worse when "The Work" is sort of brought up as the excuse, and the blame is put on the other person because THEY weren't "considering enough" or they have "issues" and so on and so forth.

Gads!

As Gurdjieff said, you cannot begin the work at a level lower than an obyvatel and I think that includes having basic good manners and knowing how to conduct yourself socially.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Like Laura mentioned in her post, sometimes it's possible to show good manners even if you're not aware of the precise forms it takes, e.g., observing the manner of a formal dinner and adjusting your own behavior as you go. However, situations will come up where you'll have to ask. For example, say you enter someone's home. You see that your host is wearing shoes. So you might assume it's okay to wear your outside shoes throughout the house. But those might be inside shoes. So you ask if you should remove your shoes. I've been shocked to see people enter someone's house and just start walking around without taking a few seconds to either observe if this is acceptable or to ask the homeowner what would be appropriate.
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Since we host so many people here throughout the year, we get an opportunity to see a whole range of behaviors. I'll never forget the fella who came to a workshop back in 2004 - young, pretty bright. I was walking from the kitchen into our pantry area and found him opening and closing cupboards and moving things around inside them to see what was in there. He didn't seem to be the least bit embarrassed when I stopped (with a bit of shock, though I was sort of hiding it) and asked him "what are you doing?" He said - as if it were the most normal thing in the world: "just checking to see what kind of stuff you have..." So I asked him: "is it normal for people in your family to go to other people's homes and start snooping through their cupboards and closets?" He said: "oh yes, my mother and sister do it all the time..."

I had to explain to him that this isn't acceptable behavior under any circumstances. He was shocked when I told him that most people do NOT do that.

I have been shaking my head over that for years now: that people are brought up so totally lacking in any kind of social training.
 
I was not aware of External Consideration before being in this group. I learned a lot about myself and others applying E.C. and when it is very difficult, better. In fact respecting the others at their stage is respecting the others. This concept of E.C. is a big, huge lesson. Thanks.

Good manners are important. We live in a culture of bad manners. I thank my father and mother for this, they educated me to respect old people, be kind to others and open your house to them. When you travel and go to others countries that our culture consider less than nothing you learn that in that sense, good manners, they have an education much more than us. Good manners are the basic of a civilization. When people forget this basic the civilization is falling apart.

Good manners is also not judging others.
 
Laura said:
I was walking from the kitchen into our pantry area and found him opening and closing cupboards and moving things around inside them to see what was in there.
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If you had not interrupted him, I guess his next step would be to rearrange "your clutter", and then expect praise for his "favor" to you? :)

Sometimes I could really use some advice on people who "help" (interfere) with what I'm doing. I do try to act thankful, but sometimes...
 
Approaching Infinity said:
In Views from the Real World, Gurdjieff gives some examples of external considering, and he basically describes good manners. For example, he says that it is his own custom to sit cross-legged on the floor, but because he was in New York, he sat on a chair out of consideration for the customs of the people he was with. So I wouldn't say that external considering is not the same thing as being socially considerate. Being socially considerate is part of being externally considerate. Put simply, it would be bad form to start up a discussion on the follies of Catholicism while dining with your hardcore Catholic in-laws. However, if in the course of conversation you see that your in-laws like a challenging discussion, it may be appropriate to raise some 'points of debate.' It depends on the context.

Like Laura mentioned in her post, sometimes it's possible to show good manners even if you're not aware of the precise forms it takes, e.g., observing the manner of a formal dinner and adjusting your own behavior as you go. However, situations will come up where you'll have to ask. For example, say you enter someone's home. You see that your host is wearing shoes. So you might assume it's okay to wear your outside shoes throughout the house. But those might be inside shoes. So you ask if you should remove your shoes. I've been shocked to see people enter someone's house and just start walking around without taking a few seconds to either observe if this is acceptable or to ask the homeowner what would be appropriate.
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These little examples seem trivial but they are very important. How you are with others in the others surroundings. The thing is in the detail and it is very interesting to see if someone has good manners or not. In the detail. It is a sort of delicate attitude, a sort of respect in the gesture that is a respect for the other person.
 
Maybe, in order to get a good understanding of this, we ought to look at what is considered to be rude?

Wikipedia gives a definition of rudeness as:

Rudeness (also called impudence or effrontery) is a display of disrespect by not complying with the social "laws" or etiquette of a group or culture. These laws have been established as the essential boundaries of normally accepted behavior. To be unable or unwilling to align one's behavior with these laws known to the general population of what is socially acceptable is to be rude.
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From another website:
There is more to rude behavior than just the frustration people feel day to day. Many factors influence a person's aptitude to be rude including a disposition to be impatient, not feeling as if they are being listened to, or being in a hurry- but the behavior all boils down to one thing:

People who are rude generally don't care about other people!
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I've gleaned a few things that are considered by about everybody to be rude:

Cutting in Lines.

Interrupting or indicating that the speaker is not worth listening to. Using a tone of voice that indicates disrespect for the listener.

Using the Last of Anything and Not Replacing It- This includes copy paper in the copier at work, gas in a shared car, and especially, toilet paper!

Being Late.

Taking Credit for the Work of Others.

Treating Store Employees/ Waitstaff Rudely.

Failure to express thanks to others.

Ordering people around over whom one has no legitimate authority.

Arguing in public.

Playing loud music or television.

Waking up others when not asked to.

Slamming a door or window.

Asking inappropriate questions or pressing for an answers to a
question.

Refusing or failing to apologize when appropriate, or apologizing
insincerely.

Gleaned from the web:

To dismiss signs of courtesy as mere symbols and to argue that what matters is not the outward trappings misses the point, said Richard Boyd, an associate professor of government at Georgetown University.

“To fail to be civil to someone — to treat them harshly, rudely or condescendingly — is not only to be guilty of bad manners,” he wrote in a 2006 article, “The Value of Civility?” for the journal Urban Studies. “It also, and more ominously, signals a disdain or contempt for them as moral beings. Treating someone rudely, brusquely or condescendingly says loudly and clearly that you do not regard her as your equal.”

The apocryphal tale of a guest who arrived in shirtsleeves at an English country house where everyone was wearing dinner jackets:

What did the host do to remedy the situation? Offer a jacket to the abashed guest? No, he removed his own jacket.

Now that’s civility.
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Here's an interesting article about rude behavior and the effects that witnessing it can have on other people:
_http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38310679/ns/health-behavior/t/how-rude-why-boorish-behavior-makes-us-cringe/#.Ujsl2z-8_Z4

Cynthia Steward walked into the store just as a customer was hitting full-throttle in an attempt to badger the owner into taking a sale item back for a full refund without a receipt. A group of customers who had been waiting to pay for their purchases had backed away from the counter, eyes averted. They looked uncomfortable and nervous.

When the owner found and printed out a copy of the original receipt proving that the item had indeed been sold at a discounted price, the agitated customer blew up. “You’re just trying to rip me off,” she screamed as she snatched her purchase off the counter and stormed toward the door. “I can’t believe you treat customers this way. I’m never coming back!”

As the door slammed, there was a collective sigh of relief and a ripple of nervous laughter. Steward knew exactly how everyone felt. Even though none of the vitriol had been directed at her, the 29-year-old manager from Quinton, N.J., had cringed as she heard the customer berating the store owner.

Rudeness, even if it’s not aimed at us, can derail a day. It can spoil a meal and ruin a good mood. It can hamstring creativity and hamper job performance. It makes us feel uncomfortable and conflicted: We don’t want to be involved, but we feel like we should be.

As it turns out, people can be so distressed by rudeness they’ll stop patronizing a business after witnessing one worker berate another, researchers reported in a study published in the August issue of the Journal of Consumer Research.

To see how employee rudeness affects consumers, the researchers set up an experiment in which volunteers were shown one of three videos. In one, the manager of a well-known bookstore chain nastily scolds a cashier for talking too long on the phone with a friend and making customers wait. In another, the manager politely asks the cashier to hang up and take the next customer. In the third, there is no manager, just an incompetent cashier.

People who saw the rude interaction got angry at the store, says the study’s lead author Christine Porath, a professor who's now at the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University. “They generalized about the employees who worked for the firm and the firm itself,” Porath says. “They were far less likely to continue to patronize the firm. They didn’t want to give it money.”

Rudeness offends people’s sense of justice, says Porath. And it’s very distracting to watch. As proof of that, she points to an earlier study in which she and her colleagues showed that people get so disturbed when they witness an episode of rudeness that it measurably affects their creativity and performance.

In that study, volunteers were asked to solve some anagrams and to figure out the solution to another type of problem by brainstorming. Then the volunteers were shown a video of a supervisor berating a subordinate. When the volunteers were asked to brainstorm and to solve anagrams a second time, their performance was markedly worse.

That makes a lot of sense to Dan Baugher, associate dean and director of graduate programs at Pace University’s Lubin School of Business. If the rudeness is directed towards us, it can feel like a violation, he says. If it’s directed toward someone else, we feel torn.

“Most people want to avoid conflict,” Baugher says. “But we feel anxiety if we don’t do anything.”

What we’re watching when we see rudeness is an act of aggression, says Pier Forni, a professor at Johns Hopkins University and co-founder of the Johns Hopkins Civility Project.

“Rudeness is very traumatic for those at the receiving end of it,” Forni says. “But it can also be traumatic for those who are just witnessing it.”

We’re wired up with mirror neurons, which make us feel empathy, Forni explains. When we watch someone being rude, our feelings of empathy run up against our desire to avoid conflict. Small wonder that we feel bad afterwards.

The impact of witnessed incivility may go far beyond consumers’ preferences and an individual’s anxiety, a Scottish researcher suggests.

Rhona Flin, a researcher from the University of Aberdeen, is currently looking at the fallout from rudeness in the health care setting. In a recent editorial in the British Medical Journal, Flin discussed the prevalence of rudeness in the operating room.

She pointed to a recent survey of operating room staff that found that 66 percent of workers said they had “received aggressive behavior” from nurses, while 53 percent had suffered similar treatment from surgeons. A large number of those interviewed — 63 percent — reported disagreements between surgeons and nurses in the OR.

Pointing to studies like Porath’s, Flin wonders whether rudeness in the operating room “might impair team members' thinking skills.”

“If incivility does occur in operating theatres and affects workers’ ability to perform tasks, the risks for surgical patients — whose treatment depends on particularly high levels of mental concentration and flawless task execution — could increase.”

Makes you think that Miss Manners should be required reading for all medical staff.
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Another:

_http://www.businessnewsdaily.com/1359-rude-employees-impact.html

Rude Behavior Can Spread Like a Virus

Rude co-workers don't just affect everyone at the office — they also have a broader impact on their community through a ripple effect that can even travel to other businesses.

That's the finding of new research from Baylor University, which suggests that stress created by incivility at work can be so intense that, at the end of the day, it is taken home by the worker and impacts the well-being of the worker's family and partner, who in turn takes the stress to his or her workplace.

"Employees who experience such incivility at work bring home the stress, negative emotion and perceived ostracism that results from those experiences, which then affects more than their family life — it also creates problems for the partner's life at work," said Merideth Ferguson, assistant professor of management and entrepreneurship at the Baylor University Hankamer School of Business and study author.

"This research underlines the importance of stopping incivility before it starts so that the ripple effect of incivility does not impact the employee's family and potentially inflict further damage beyond the workplace where the incivility took place and cross over into the workplace of the partner," she said.

In addition, since the employee comes home more stressed and distracted when experiencing incivility in the workplace, the employee's partner is likely to pick up more of the family responsibilities, and those demands may interfere with the partner's work life, the study said. The study also found that such stress also significantly affected the worker's and the partner's marital satisfaction.

Ferguson said it is incumbent upon the employer to try to discourage rudeness, incivility and workplace bullying and encourage good behavior at work.

"One approach to prevent this stress might be to encourage workers to seek support through their organization's employee assistance program or other resources such as counseling or stress management so that tactics or mechanisms for buffering the effect of incivility's stress on the family can be identified," she said.

Ferguson's study is published online in the Journal of Organizational Behavior.
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I tend to get confused between external consideration, polite manners and “be nice program” … thanks for this thread, the more examples, the merrier. I had observed myself that when a program is running, or some sort of trigger, cue, appear, my manners go with the flush, sometimes I had manage to stop short and change my behaviour, sometimes are in retrospective, regarding external consideration …

DreamGod said:
In 4th Way parlance, this is the practice of taking others into account when acting. External considering involves making a realistic evaluation of another's situation and acting in ways which take this into account in a positive sense.
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… and to do so, in my understanding is your (my) self importance the one that has to go to the flush, and it is/had been an struggle, lack of practice I supposed and still having angry/rage too.

The constantly lack of manners of the spouse of my brother, had put me in defense. Its everyday a new shock, and I am not even near her, I hear it from other family members. The new one, she train her daughter to hear conversation through the telephone, either she is or her mother, had not been able to catch them insitu yet. I can hear it when I talk to my father by telephone, my father does not hear it, he does not hear well, and I know there is another in upstairs telephone, and I know well too much is either one of them, I once told my father that the line was not right, "possibly" "someone" "didn't" "hungdown" the telephone, the moment I say it, that someone hungdown.
 
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