External Considering and Good Manners

The Strawman said:
In my introduction I tried to convey how I think and write in a way that avoids emotion, in order to keep discussions purely intellectual. The emotional has its place of course. But when I see something that I perceive to be a misunderstanding or misinterpretation I have this need to redress it - like a dog with a bone as they say.

Every box has to be ticked for me. Perhaps our exchange has highlighted this as something I need to work on. In terms of research you have to be like a dog with a bone, but maybe there are times when the bone can be left alone.
Indeed. Context is very important. The "every box has to be ticked for me" is an internal need. When this need takes center stage in an interaction with others, external consideration goes out of the window. If on the other hand, this need is acknowledged and controlled, it is possible to be externally considerate.

[quote author=Jasmine]
I made a special effort to be extra EC with my post to Strawman as it was a touchy subject. And I didn't see that same effort reciprocated in his rude reply or yours.
[/quote]

Jasmine, it is your perception that you were being "extra externally considerate". External consideration means making life easier for yourself and others. From the responses you received, it was clear that others did not think you were being externally considerate. That is the reality here about how your actions were perceived and they are at odds with your perception. Something to consider.


I think people may benefit from communication skills tips like the ones shared in Crucial Conversations .
 
I made a special effort to be extra EC with my post to Strawman as it was a touchy subject. And I didn't see that same effort reciprocated in his rude reply or yours.

it is your perception that you were being "extra externally considerate". External consideration means making life easier for yourself and others. From the responses you received, it was clear that others did not think you were being externally considerate. That is the reality here about how your actions were perceived and they are at odds with your perception.

Jasmine, external considering often means keeping the big picture in mind, rather than attempting to accommodate a single person in a given moment. It may help next time to think how your reply will be perceived by other readers of the forum, both by the participants of the current discussion and those who read but do not post, and how it will add to the discussion.

There is a saying, "the meaning of the message is in its result and not its intent". The ultimate goal of this forum is to provide a learning opportunity for all. A squabble of a "he said, she said" sort detracts from the main learning curve. Exercising external consideration would help to avoid it.
 
I recently came across this quote from C.G.Jung:
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” Allegedly he estimated that everything we feel about or see in another person is about 75% our own stuff, our shadow projected, positive and negative and really has nothing to do with the other person in reality.

Now this is definitely something to keep in mind when practicing external consideration.
 
RflctnOfU said:
It seems as though we get a demonstration of the topic of the thread, or at the least it's inverse, in the thread itself. This is a wonderful learning opportunity everyone, IMO.

Kris

I agree whole-heartedly agree with Kris, This was a great learning opportunity of all of us. I have to admit that it was really painful for me to read the exchange between Meena, Strawman and Jasmine (yes, I'm that sensitive :lol:) Even more, because I just learned that a great dog is suffering, because he's really sick and has bone cancer. And then, something truly miraculous has happened. Meena and Strawman apologized to one another, pointing out to their own difficulties in communication. It was like Great Feminine Energy in her expression "Thou, I Love" came through. And the great post by our Embassador Carlisle was a confirmation of that fact for me.

I've always found fascinating one particular story about the ancient cultures. It is said that when men were fighting, if a woman threw her handkerchief or a headdress between them, they had to stop, because if they wouldn't, it would be a great insult to the Mother. And men followed this custom. Maybe, that's what the idea of showing "white flag" for truce is coming from? It was also said that great women could stop wars between the countries by this seemingly simple gesture.

And today, I saw it with my own eyes. What a joy! Thank you.
 
Herr Eisenheim said:
I recently came across this quote from C.G.Jung:
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” Allegedly he estimated that everything we feel about or see in another person is about 75% our own stuff, our shadow projected, positive and negative and really has nothing to do with the other person in reality.

Now this is definitely something to keep in mind when practicing external consideration.

just like Hermann Hesse said:
"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us."
 
edgitarra said:
Herr Eisenheim said:
I recently came across this quote from C.G.Jung:
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” Allegedly he estimated that everything we feel about or see in another person is about 75% our own stuff, our shadow projected, positive and negative and really has nothing to do with the other person in reality.

Now this is definitely something to keep in mind when practicing external consideration.

just like Hermann Hesse said:
"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us."

This is so true. It is so true that it hurts. I remember some years ago when I fell on this quote of Jung, I really had difficulty to understand how what you have difficulty to accept in another person is something that you already have, yourself. I was working with a woman and it was so difficult to work with her, she was lazy, and hypocrite. I asked myself: I am not lazy, not hypocrite, how come Jung can say this? I am not lazy! So little by little I saw in her a sort of mirror of myself, yes, I was lazy, sometimes, and I did not accepted my laziness. And sometimes also I was hypocrite. So she was my sister, in a sort of way, we were both so similar, she gave me the chance to see some parts of me that I refused to look into. And accepting those parts of me I was able to accept her as she was, without judging her. And after that working with her became a very interesting thing...

So Jung is right and also Mr. Hesse. :)
 
If you are "hating" other people then you are just playing in the game. What is there to "hate" about someone who doesn't harm you or a loved one but has poor qualities? My computer wouldn't turn on the other day I don't hate it. Its part of what it is. In my apartment complex everytime this women walks in the door before me she never holds it open. She is known to be inconsiderate around the complex. I don't hate her thats who she is. I recognize it and I know to be prepared to open the door myself when behind her I don't invite her into my apartment or socialize with her I am civil.
 
It's interesting - I was reading Volume 8 of The Wave: Debugging the Universe last night after all the strenuous activity on the forum (and inside me) and I was reading about the 'Heroic Journey.' I know inside me I am meant to be on this journey but I have postponed The Call over the last few years due to a desire to reach a certain height within the system. I realise that I have had a strange plan that involves reaching that height then discarding it all and resuming The Call. Yes, I know :huh:

What is really stopping from ditching my membership of the system is fear. But the fear, to me, is of doing everything in one hit - give up my job and lose the money that comes with it and live from hand to mouth with nothing but faith. I also realise that it doesn't have to be like that.

The point I am making is that this interaction with Menna and Jasmine has been a good mirror for me. I am aware of my shortcomings and can see that I could have handled the interaction much, much better. This is The Call. I am responding to it - I am on the journey.

This place feels to me like my second home. The energy feels safe, developed, mature, powerful, in a good way. That's how I experience it.

The incredible responses to the Menna/Jasmine/Strawman triangular exchange, from those clearly further into The Work, blew me away. Those people comfort me in the sense that I know I don't have to fight them. Submission - this is also in Debugging the Universe, where the question is asked (paraphrase) '...what is it that we must submit to ... that is the most important question/issue'- for me it is submission to the fact that I do not have to fight any more. That's almost beyond the threshold into PAN territory.

It's also submission to the fact that I do not have to 'save' anyone here, or be responsible for them, in the obsessive sense. It's time to go beyond my particular personalised myths.

I notice that there is a lot of 'me' and 'I' in this post. That kinda embarrasses me. At the same time though it shows exactly where The Work is, and that's another thing I have to submit to - the fact that at this level I can't be the saviour or descending angel anymore, a dynamic forced on me from childhood. That's fine. It all seems to have brought me here.

I have stared into physical mirrors many times in the past in an attempt to discover who or what I was/am - some discernible identity or individuality in there that could anchor me. And all the time it was a different type of mirror I needed.

Thank you to everyone involved in this learning experience, and for the mirror. I did look into it and saw things. Things that I will work on. This thread seems to have progressed from "would you please pass the salt" to something much more meaty (do you think Laura knew it would? ;) )

I appreciate your care, intelligence and patience, and with that I shall withdraw quietly to another room to allow you all a bit of peace.
 
Herr Eisenheim said:
I recently came across this quote from C.G.Jung:
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” Allegedly he estimated that everything we feel about or see in another person is about 75% our own stuff, our shadow projected, positive and negative and really has nothing to do with the other person in reality.

Now this is definitely something to keep in mind when practicing external consideration.
If there ever were a short cut, and we know there isn't, this would be it. This thought has never strayed far from my mind. It's a huge one at identifying our fears or programs at any giving time Just by looking at those near us and around us.

We are all mirrors of each other, because we are all fragments of the one. :)
 
The Strawman said:
This thread seems to have progressed from "would you please pass the salt" to something much more meaty (do you think Laura knew it would? ;) )

Touché! ;)
 
This is a quote from the Agni Yoga series by Helena Roerich concerning External Considerations:

"However, the canon "By thy god" must be applied in life, practically on every step. During each conversation, when there is no unity of consciousnesses, our first duty is not to infuriate our companion by contradiction and censure of his convictions, but, starting with his best possibilities and considering the level of his consciousness, we should gradually and patiently broaden his horizon. Thus, speaking with a Moslem, you will not begin by praising Lord Buddha or demeaning Mohammed, but you will interchange with him all that is beautiful in his religion, and when opportunity arises, you will explain more deeply and broadly the meaning of some sayings of Mohammed that have entered the treasury of world wisdom. Thus you will also do in any other situations in life. You will not speak with an avid chauvinist against his country, but you will discover the best expressions and qualities of his nation, and you will point out to him new ways for developing its particular qualifications. Your breadth of understanding of national beliefs will smooth over the factor of chauvinism and, unexpectedly for him, his limited consciousness will begin to respond to the note of containment. And so, one should learn to carry on timely conversations without animosity but evaluating your companion with friendliness. Precisely, carry them on with PATIENCE and respect for your adversary, not permitting irritation, derision, and other unworthy means. And in each conversation one should know how to sacrifice one's self, one's knowledge, and not to boast of one's enlightenment. Remember that it is said in the Teaching that only a pompous ignorance loves to spread on window sills the dry, small twigs of its knowledge, but he who truly knows does not fear to snip off a piece of his knowledge when it can oppress and humiliate his companion. In this manner, the canon "By thy God" is merely a manifestation of selflessness, without which nothing can be achieved. It is a great error to liken it to non-resistance to evil. If you wish, accept this canon as a manifestation of mercy. And so, the canon "By thy God" is fully compatible precisely with resistance to evil. One can put a stop to evil by various means, and straight-knowledge should prompt the limits of possibilities when applying the given canon."

on a connected note i think it is important that we are all aware of the fact that EC rule, as any other rule can turn from a Living Rule to a Dead Letter. And that it can even become a kind of safety net for our own limits :)
Friendly intent and effort to reach a middle ground with the other, are always necessary conditions for achieving shared understanding.
But only when that share understanding has been reached, we can be sure we did our part.
When it is not reached, each of the sides might have fell short of what was required on their part, and in many cases this applies to both parties involved
 
Since I read the last session I'm wondering about my presentation and representation. Not because I'm obsess with my self but more because I want to learn how to be more external considered to others.

Most of the people probably don't have this issue and this could be silly to others but this greatly influenced in my behavior and decision through my life.

Before I thought that is the best that you act how you feel and that is the best to be sincere to others. I was conviced that I know who I am. Also, I was pretty sure to know how to behave to others. If someone was rude to me I gave him very angry speech to let him know that kind of act I will not tolerate. But also I had very good teacher in good manners in my mother and father, and because of that I have avoided many bad situations and bad opinion about me even I'm not "good example" how woman should wear (what ever that means).

When I met the Work, I realized that there is people and the one that's pretending to be human.

When I worked in public service like a secretary I was obliged to wear skirts, heals and make up. People were very kind to me, more than when I wearing pants and when I'm without make up. Because I don't like hypocrisy i was very mad in this situation. One of the main reason why I left such a good opportunity (at least from ordinary thinking) is because I felt like I'm an object and not a person.

I like to wear ties (don't ware anymore a lot because now I live in small village where I try to leave good opinion because of that, also, depends where I will be working at season time) and pants, pretty much like a man. But also I like to wear heals, dresses and everyting like a woman. But, the main problem when you are a woman is that you are on the spot. I don't like attention, not anymore. So, my questions are:

1. Do you think that woman should dress like a woman because society ask you to do that. Obviously (at least in my country, Croatia) that will help you building your social and economic status?
2. Where is boundaries with external consideration when someone is rude to you?
3. Do you think that is good to visit like others social events, church and funerals (nobody loves funerals but some people really blame me because I avoid this kind of events).

I have realized that I don't who I am, also that I know only small part of the world that I'm leaving so my behaviour and my believes also could be false (telling the "truth", taking in sensitive way everything that other say, fight for my right and etc.) I really don't know nothing so how could I know I'm behaving right or wrong? This is could the most implied on my job. How much of "bad things" should I put up from my boss to be considered external consideration?
 
Dakota said:
1. Do you think that woman should dress like a woman because society ask you to do that. Obviously (at least in my country, Croatia) that will help you building your social and economic status?
2. Where is boundaries with external consideration when someone is rude to you?
3. Do you think that is good to visit like others social events, church and funerals (nobody loves funerals but some people really blame me because I avoid this kind of events).

I have realized that I don't who I am, also that I know only small part of the world that I'm leaving so my behaviour and my believes also could be false (telling the "truth", taking in sensitive way everything that other say, fight for my right and etc.) I really don't know nothing so how could I know I'm behaving right or wrong? This is could the most implied on my job. How much of "bad things" should I put up from my boss to be considered external consideration?

Hi, for the first point it depends on the situation. If you travel to a Muslim country you should respect the dress habits of the country and their religion, and doing this you will feel better, at ease. You will be able to move and enter situations that will give the chance to be nearer the people of the country. But in your regular life, I think you dress as you like, as you feel comfortable and for my part I am not following fashion at all. But here also it depends of the circumstances, I think so. If you visit someone that is very strict and this visit is important for you, external consideration has to be applied. For respect and to protect yourself, also.

Point 2 is, for me, a little complicated. It depends also of the situation. I will react if I feel in danger, physically. Mentally is another story. Sometimes your boss is very rude so what do you do? You want to keep your job. In this sort of situation I am very patient, but this is me. If I want the job absolutely. But my patience have limits and in one occasion I just left my job because my boss was a sort of psychopath and also the people of my team, that where "little" psychopaths, the slaves of my boss. So in a situation like this, when you feel trapped and very unhappy, I think you should fly. Because to be respected is very important for me, that's why. To be insulted is not acceptable at all. If someone is denigrating you, this is unacceptable. But maybe just be silent and go is a good option, instead of confronting.

Point 3 is, also, depending of the situation. In fact it depends of the people of the situation. If someone very near me, a friend for example, ask me to go to the funeral of his mother, even if I don't like to go to church I will go for my friend. But total strangers will not me force to go to the church because of the convention of the church goers. I can go to church when I feel to go, but not because of the convention. But what if you are in vacation in a family that every Sunday goes to church and it is very important for them? There, I think so, external consideration is applied. Go to church one or two times is not the end of the world and the external consideration of doing it will help you to be more at easy in this family.

This is my point of vue, very personal. Maybe I am totally wrong! Me too I am learning. :)
 
Dakota said:
...I want to learn how to be more external considered to others.

[...]

How much of "bad things" should I put up from my boss to be considered external consideration?

Hi Dakota.

If I may ask a couple of preliminary questions, then I would ask:

1) What do people seem to be reacting to most when they behave so rudely? Is it mostly the way you dress, the way you look as a woman, the way you speak or avoid social functions? Is it something else, specifically? IOW, is the rudeness you have to deal with all related to the same thing or is it about so many different things that it seems to much to keep track of and doesn't really happen very often?

2) What was your boss being rude about? Was it general rudeness as if he just hates women or something, or does he rant about the same thing over and over? What do you mean by "bad things"? Is that something you would feel comfortable talking about?

Since you're main question is about External Consideration, answers would help me to give you better feedback on that question, I think. The rest of the subjects you ask about, like funerals and boundaries, I will try to give helpful answers to based on your reply...if you will understand that my thoughts are not based on familiarity with Croatian culture or many details of your personal situation.
 
Dakota said:
1. Do you think that woman should dress like a woman because society ask you to do that. Obviously (at least in my country, Croatia) that will help you building your social and economic status?
2. Where is boundaries with external consideration when someone is rude to you?
3. Do you think that is good to visit like others social events, church and funerals (nobody loves funerals but some people really blame me because I avoid this kind of events).
Regarding No.1, here (Mexico) applies as well. I do not dress "like a woman" mostly all of the time, is due to the insecure feeling I have regarding the insecurity level of the city, the insecurity level of the area where I work and where I live, Pretty much in jeans with no makeup either. But when special occasions come, I do dress like most woman's do, it helps that, on special occasions I am traveling along other people and by car. Insecurity seems to lessen, like another dimension. I do like some dresses or skirts, one thing I had learned is to dress also as "society says" because, most of the special occasions had been invitations, so then, since I had agreed to go, I had agreed implicitly, to go with their "dress code", like weddings. One thing I do not use, not even if society say so, is heels, other people had said that is because I am tall, so I do not need them, good, I do not like them, and do not know walk with them either. 5cm of heel is my limit. Of course, the variety is reduced, but one for others. I used to dress "like a woman" at work before I came to this city. Nowadays the environment seems too threatening, so I had to use the low-profile uniform.

I remember, I went to a cousin wedding, I was one of her maid of honour, so I went dressed accordingly; at the wedding, my cousin told me that her mother in law wanted to know me better, I told/asked my cousin if she had already told her that I do not belong to her social status -up too tight, high economic status- to my liking. Because my cousin knows me well, better to draw the line before disillusions (whichever the her mother in law was thinking when she saw me) comes later.

Is also with the wearing code to man, one of my second cousin wanted to have his American visa because he was required to travel to US for the company he used to work at. It was just at the third time, until he listen to my parents about changing his clothes that he at least received it. The other times, he went on jeans and a cowboy shirt. Since he went like 3 times, even though he went better dressed, like cocktail/casual, they make him sweat asking for papers that usually companies do not have on Saturdays, but he manage, and received the visa.

Regarding the second question, I used to have outburst quite often, was angry at life, one of the books I first bought regarding that was about limits, end since ever since, I had been working with that, fortunately, I had reduced quite a lot, my outbursts, most of the time, emotions/unconscious betrayed me, and think about my lack of external consideration later, it should be before. When some one is rude, I think boundaries should remain, and express it without being driven by emotions, something that had been quite difficult for me to do. It helps to breath. Also, as Loreta mentioned, depends on the situation.


For the last one, ... I do not like either funerals, they make me uncomfortable, awkward, and do not know how to give condolences, lack of practice I think, but I had learned that those closed people/family members, friends, do appreciate it. And, sometimes one/I do not do what we/I 'precisely' want. Those kind of events, are important -mostly- for the people around us, and, personally, I want to keep those relationships, that's why I keep going if I am invited. My mother sometimes invites me to church, she feels fine to be with my company in church, she and I had a lot of arguments before regarding church and religion, now she understands and respects me, so I go because I want to, and do the sitting, kneeling, standing, going with the flow, except with prayers, sometimes I found myself repeating mechanically as I did years ago, except the Holy Father that used to have conflicts before, instead I say -not loud, though- the POTS.
 
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