Gurdjieff on Expressions of Sympathy/Condolences

Laura

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From "Life is Real..."


At about ten-thirty several of my old acquaintances came in, three of whom are considered there to be writers—and sitting down at my table they began to drink their morning coffee. Among them was one who had worked for me for a good many years on translations of my writings into the English language. I decided to take advantage of his coming to find out how the beginning of this last book of mine would "sound." I gave him the pages just written to translate, and continued writing. We both worked, while the others drank coffee and talked. At eleven o'clock, in order to rest a little, I asked the translator to read aloud what he had already translated. When he came, in the translation, to the expression used by me, "intentional suffering," I interrupted his reading, for he had translated the word "intentional" by the word "voluntary." As I attempted to explain the great difference between the voluntary and intentional suffering of man, there arose a general philological discussion, as is usual in such cases.

In the heat of the argument one of us was called to the telephone. He came back quickly and announced excitedly that someone wanted to speak to me personally. I learned from the telephone message that a telegram had just come from London saying that Mr. Orage had died that same morning. This news was so unexpected that at first I didn't even take in what it was about. When I grasped it, however, it fairly struck me. And it struck me especially because at the same time I remembered certain events connected with this day and with this person.

All at once, there began to be constated in my consciousness various conclusions which I had drawn in my past life, but which had not yet been formed into a conviction, concerning the fact of "noticeable coincidences" which take place in our lives. In this case, the strangeness of the coincidence showed itself noticeably in that, in this selfsame night, exactly seven years before, as the first of those ideas took form in me on which will be based the contents of the book begun today, I had dictated a letter to just this person and mentioned many of these thoughts. I had dictated an answer to a private letter from this person concerning the cure for his chronic disease, from which, it seems, he also died.

It was midnight on the 6th of November of the year 1927. I lay sleepless in a whirlpool of oppressive thoughts and, trying to think of something to divert myself a little from my heavy thoughts, I remembered by association, among other things, the letter received a few days before. On thinking of his letter, and considering his attitude of well-wishing, recently proven to me, I, quite without pity, woke up my secretary who was sleeping in the same apartment, and dictated the answer.

At that time Mr. Orage was considered to be, and indeed was, the most important leader in the disseminarion of my ideas in the whole northern part of North America. As in those days I was completely filled with thoughts about my own sickness, and almost entirely convinced of the possibility of regulating my health by means of intentional suffering, I, of course, advised him to do the same—but in a form corresponding to his individuality and the conditions of his ordinary life.

I shall not relate here about his further letters and our personal conversations in connection with his illness and my advice; I shall only point out that the essence of the cause of the failure of my advice can be clearly explained to every reader by the words occurring in one of the chapters of this third series, which come from his own mouth. Among the many unprofitable consequences of this event, namely, the death of Mr. Orage, unprofitable for me and my writings, was also that from that day on, just that 6th of November, for two months, in spite of my constant wish, and constant efforts, I was not able to add a single word to what I had written up to half-past eleven that morning. And I could not do so thanks to the awakening of one of those factors which arises without fail in the psyche of contemporary people, particularly in Americans, the totality of which causes even the budding of different impulses to become mechanical.

Contrary to the established habits of my former visits, on this stay of mine I had been avoiding all meetings with acquaintances living here, aside from a few people who corresponded to my aim. But now, each and every one of the great number of people who knew me here, and who learned through the papers or telephone conversations—a usual custom here—of the death of my close friend, Mr. Orage, thanks to the said action of the automatically arisen factor, considered it their duty to seek me out in order to express their so-called "sympathy."

And there came and telephoned not only people who were members of that group which Mr. Orage had led, but also people of whose existence I hadn't the faintest idea. Among these latter were many acquaintances whom, as it turned out, I had met only once and just by chance on my first visit here, eleven years before. Even in the mornings, when I came to the cafe to work, some Mister or Mistress or other would be sitting there waiting for me. And no sooner was the He or the She gone than another one would come to my table, and unfailingly with an obviously false, sad face.

Each one of these visitors would "burst" out at once with his "How do you do, Mr. Gurdjieff?" and follow it inevitably with the stereotyped phrase: "Oh, I am very sorry about Mr. Orage's death!"

What could I answer to this? The question of death is just that question which supersedes all the established and subjectivized conditions of bur life.

In this case, I could not use my usual means for keeping at a distance those visitors who disturbed me at my work. That would mean the immediate and thoughtless creation of new and eager disseminators of gossip to my discredit. Even before my arrival in America I had had the intention, as soon as I should begin the writing of this last book of mine, at the same time to make visits, as often as possible, to those states of North America in which groups of people were organized who were followers of my ideas. In this way, I calculated that simultaneously with the completion at the predetermined time limit of all the tasks I had set myself, I would have completed this last book, as well as the organization of everything required for the dissemination of the first series of my writings. And therefore, in order to change the circumstances which had arisen which were disturbing my work, I set off as quickly as possible, traveling first to Washington, then to Boston, and from there to Chicago.

But nothing helped—the same thing repeated itself everywhere!

It is perhaps a little understandable that people who knew me in the mentioned cities felt it necessary to express their sympathy to me, as they almost all had known Mr. Orage personally and also his relationship to me. But the fact that American acquaintances of certain far southern states of North America also began to do this—this was really "stuff and nonsense."

Among the people of the Southern states who expressed their world-famous "sympathy" were those who not only had never seen Mr. Orage but had never even heard of his existence. They had just learned a few days before that he had died, and that he had been one of my most important assistants. And thus, among the number of unexpectedly arisen circumstances which prevented me in this period from fulfilling the "Being-task" I had set myself, was suddenly and unexpectedly established this vicious weakness, which has gained citizenship in the general psyche of modern man—"to express sympathy."

It has just occurred to me that the thoughts which I expressed to a small group of people at a meeting in a suburb, in connection with the death of Mr. Orage, might serve as a better clarification of the meaning and significance of the whole contents of this chapter, and I have therefore decided to recollect these thoughts in my memory and to add them here.

• this meeting, while drinking coffee, we were speaking of the different habits which take possession of us in our childhood, and which enslave us also after the attainment of mature years.

• this moment there arrived one of their comrades, with a jolly, flushed face. Being late, he had probably been walking quicker than usual, and he had not reckoned on running into me. But as soon as he caught sight of me, the expression of his face changed and, coming up to me, he "burst" out at once with his sentence, learned by heart from the list of "sympathies."

• this point I could no longer contain myself and, turning to them all, said:

"Have you heard the peculiar intonation, not proper to him, with which your comrade who has just come has delivered his bombastic speech?

"Did you? . . . Good. Now then, ask him, that is, beg him, please, for once in his life to make an exception and to say honestly whether his 'inside,' that is, his real being, had any connection whatever with his spoken words.

"Of course it had none, and how could it be otherwise, for, in the first place, the deceased person concerned in this case was not a 'blood brother' of his and, in the second place, he could not possibly know or feel what attitude the person to whom he addressed his flowery speech had toward the event.

"His words were spoken quite mechanically, without the least participation of his being, and he said them only because, in his childhood, his nurse had taught him in such cases 'to lift the right leg and not the left.'

"But why be insincere even in those cases when there is absolutely no advantage in it for your being, not even for the satisfaction of your egoism?

"Is it not enough that our daily life is filled to overflowing with insincerity, thanks to the abnormally established habits of our mutual relationships?

"Unfailingly to express sympathy at the death of anyone or anybody is just such a vicious habit, instilled in childhood, thanks to the totality of which our half-intentional actions come to an automatic end.

"To express one's sympathy to someone in the case of the death of a person close to him was considered in ancient times an immoral, even criminal action.

"Perhaps it was considered so because it is easily possible that, in the being of that person who is being thus addressed, the process of the fresh impression of the loss of a close person has not yet quieted down, and by these empty words of sympathy he is reminded of it again and his suffering aroused anew.

"From such a habit, customary at the present time in the case of anyone's death, no one derives any benefit, and the person thus addressed, only great harm.

"Such habits, established in contemporary life, offend me especially, perhaps because I have had the opportunity of becoming acquainted with the customs used in the same cases in the lives of people who lived many centuries before us.

"Many thousand years ago, when a person died, for the first three days no one would be present at the place of this sad happening, except the priests and their assistants.

"Only on the fourth day there would assemble all the relations and relations by marriage, as well as neighbors, acquaintances and even strangers who wished to come.

"In the presence of all those assembled, the priests first conducted the religious ceremonies at the door of the house, and then, in the company of all, carried the dead to the graveyard, where they again carried out a special ritual, and then buried him.

"After that, if the deceased was a man, all the men returned to the deceased's house; if a woman, then all the women. All the others separated and returned home.

"Those people who had returned to the house of the deceased first of all ate and drank, but only that food the ingredients of which the deceased himself had prepared during his lifetime for this purpose.

"After this meal, they gathered in the largest room of the house, and set themselves down to the so-called 'Remembering Feast,' recalling to mind and relating only the bad and evil deeds of the deceased during his life.

"And this they did daily for three days.

"After this peculiar three-day procedure, or as one might now call it 'not leaving a good hair on his head,' or as they called it then 'washing the bone of the dead down to the white of the ivory,' all those who had taken part gathered daily in the house of the deceased for seven days, but this time in the evenings after their daily duties were finished.

"During these seven days it was no longer the custom to offer food, but many different sorts of incense were burned constantly in the same room in which the assembly took place, at the cost of the deceased or of his heirs.

"All present sat or kneeled quietly, and, in the well-known atmosphere called forth by the incense, they first chose from among themselves the worthiest by age and reputation, as leader. And then they began to give themselves up to the contemplation of the inevitability of their own death.

"At certain intervals, the leader would say to all present the following:

" 'Do not forget how he has lived, whose breath has not yet vanished from this place, how he behaved unworthily for a man, and did not accept the fact that he, as well as all others, must die.'

"After such an utterance by the leader, all those present had to sing together the following:

" '0 ye holy, higher forces, and immortal spirits of our ancestors, help us to keep death always before our eyes, and not to succumb to temptation.'

"I will not add more but will leave it to each one of you to decide for himself what advantage there might be if such a 'savage' custom could be established again.

"I hope that you now partially understand why just these 'expressions of sympathy' of yours affect my inner being almost in the same way as your American 'products' of nourishment affect the English system.

"It would be desirable for all, for God, for the deceased, for you, for me and even for the whole of humanity, if, at the death of any person, instead of the process of the expression of senseless words, the process of the real grasping of your own forthcoming death would take place in you.

"Only the complete realization by man of the inevitability of his own death can destroy those factors, implanted thanks to our abnormal life, of the expression of different aspects of our egoism, this cause of all evil in our common life.

"Only such a realization can bring to birth again in man those formerly present, divine proofs of genuine impulses-faith, love and hope."
 
from Life is Real... said:
It would be desirable for all, for God, for the deceased, for you, for me and even for the whole of humanity, if, at the death of any person, instead of the process of the expression of senseless words, the process of the real grasping of your own forthcoming death would take place in you.
I do not know if I am grasping my forthcoming death or just simply thinking about it, I tend to think what would happened every once and then, one of the issues that prevail is to not let things unresolved, like debts. I suppose it might be better if, I do not just focus on external issues, but internal issues as well, there are many things/issues/feeling/programs in my multiples I's, that are in need to resolve, now that I think of it, it can be considered like debts to the higher self. This kind of thinking comes along with karma and dharma.

It could be applied also to expressions of senseless/mechanic/automatic daily words? Countless times I had heard the expression “bla, bla, bla at your house, --- and one have to interrupt to be grateful(??) in order for him/her continue whatever she/he was talking about.

I had found myself saying some of those kinds of expressions, I feel/get confuse from being mechanical or having good manners or lacking manners -depending with whom I am at the moment. Some, I do avoid, like being sorry at funerals from people I do not know/met, or like those of “Your house, my house. Come, in this is your house”, and mostly –I suppose- I avoid sending hugs/kisses there and there.

Last week, a supplier's saleswoman end her conversation saying “Best wishes and hugs for everyone there”, since we know that she is causing troubles with the orders, to me was like saying “Best wishes and hugs for everyone there, do not forget that when you make yourself vulnerable, I will stab a knife at everyone's back. Have a happy holidays!!!”-that with the same flowery sound of her voice.
 
I think that, for Gurdjieff, a real grasping of your own forthcoming death is equivalent to more fully experiencing your own conscience.

Personally, I can think about my death all I want and still go about my business and function normally. But when I get close to grasping and feeling it viscerally, I have different experiences. Sometimes I choke up and strongly wish to be with all the people I have ever known and loved. Sometimes I feel conflicted and wonder if I am actually somehow programming myself to die. Other times I feel an incredibly deep anger and grief at all the missed opportunities in life - mine and humanity at large and for many years.

I believe super-longevity is technologically possible for human beings today (like Beezlebub's lifetime in BT) but is politically impossible due to the pathologies and psycho-pathologies in control of all the world's resources, just to name one concern.

When I feel all this, naturally, I'm also feeling that the deceased has passed prematurely as a direct result of mankind's failure to solve all the problems of human dis-ease and I grieve for this person who has passed because his/her entire life experience and all he/she has learned in that identity might be gone forever. How much more that person could share with and teach others - to just be alive and associate with people and nature; to love and be loved and continue to enjoy life for as long as possible we'll never know. To me, it's truly like an ultimate tragedy that words can't really do full justice to explain.

So, knowing the depth of emotion I can feel about my forthcoming death, or that of someone I know and like/love, it can be hard to listen to people express 'sympathy' and 'condolences' if they are doing so out of politeness, social ritual or just a discernible superficiality, but then, what can you do when or if someone isn't "real"?

I feel like I can understand why G got so upset at that incident in "Life is Real...". Rather, I feel like I can understand what could motivate him to go off like he did on that specific occasion.
 
Laura said:
"It would be desirable for all, for God, for the deceased, for you, for me and even for the whole of humanity, if, at the death of any person, instead of the process of the expression of senseless words, the process of the real grasping of your own forthcoming death would take place in you.

"Only the complete realization by man of the inevitability of his own death can destroy those factors, implanted thanks to our abnormal life, of the expression of different aspects of our egoism, this cause of all evil in our common life.

"Only such a realization can bring to birth again in man those formerly present, divine proofs of genuine impulses-faith, love and hope."

If I may, to the best of my limited ability, I would like to speak on this though I can only speak for myself.

I believe, as far as I can understand, that what Gurdjieff is saying here would be in his terminology the equivalent to what Plato is saying when he mentions The art of dying. It has to do with Recognition.

What is it that we would lose if we were to die? Thoughts come of friends, family, loved ones, perhaps material wealth, material things? Sure, but what else? It is easy to think of the obvious things, but what about the not so obvious. Those things are outside of ourselves though, right? What of the things that have come from outside of ourselves? Would we not also lose those?

What if we ask then, what has actually come from outside of ourselves and we start making a list? What would we come up with? Or a better question may be, what has not come from outside of ourselves?

What if we were to have a Recognition? If we strip everything away that has come from outside of ourselves, what do we have left?

What if we recognize that everything we know, everything we believe, everything we have seen, heard or been taught has in truth come from outside of ourselves. If we take this, and strip it all away, what is there? What is left?

What if all of a sudden, all of our identity is gone. There is nothing left. The shock of it would seem to be unbearable. Almost impossible it accept. We would all of a sudden be afraid. Outright terrified. We would fight it. We would tell ourselves that this is impossible, it can not be. We would beg and pray to go back to our ignorance, if we did not, all would be lost.

As we go on doing this, we realize that there is something else there and we look at it trying to figure out what it is at first. It is just there. We feel confusion. How is this possible? What is it that is going on?

It seems to just be there. There is no judgement in its heart, no real thoughts that we can recognize, no real words that can be put to it, it is just there!!! Then it is like a sudden flash of understanding. A Recognition that can not be denied. This is truth that I AM. There is nothing else, it is ALL. In its pureness, there is no separation. That is what I AM.

In that moment of Recognition, all delusion is shredded. Everything. Poof. Gone. We look on in shock. This is the most amazing thing that we have ever seen. Unbelievable, incredible, beautifully perfect in every single aspect.

We Recognize this. Not feel, or see or know or believe. It is nothing short of pure recognition. We have this recognition and we surrender to it. We surrender it all to that which is all. I AM.

In that moment of true Recognition, every single emotion that could be experienced is experienced. Horror, shame, guilt, self hatred.....Oh my God. How could we have been so ignorant and arrogant. How could we have been so stupid. What is wrong with us? You have been here all along.
Then there is the other side. We have never known that we could have such joy, such pure ecstasy. There is so much love there. So much. It is everything There is no choice but to fall to our knees in awe. We cry at the beauty of it all. We beg for forgiveness for not realizing just how ignorant we really were. We start to laugh. It it just so funny. The irony of it all. All that struggle to get here and all along it was right here. We never moved.

So, then we open our eyes. Everything is so new. Life is just incredible in its every aspect. It just is. Things just are. We cannot know. We can only recognize. It is just so different.

Then, as we look around, we begin to see others, and this is when another shock hits us. We see them as ourselves.!!!. They are the same!!! We all of a sudden recognize them, and I mean truly recognize them. All of the pains, and all of the struggles are all the same. Yet when we look at them, all of a sudden we can recognize why it was said to Love Thine enemy. Upon recognition of our own ignorance's we come to recognize that we all suffer from the same affliction. The only way we can come to this is if we "die" in real life. Despite the quotation marks there it is really quite literal.

And now, the real work begins because that ego has been knocked from the throne and it wants it back.

Anyways. Thats it. I know I'm not the greatest story teller, but I put it out there none the less.

No matter how poorly written the story, what I quoted from G I believe to be the end goal within the work. Everything that he was working towards in trying to get people to understand is held within that quote.
 
after reading this thread , i think something i have been doing for about ten years
is very similar . I do Not like the greeting "How are you?" especially with near strangers
my answer is " Its too early too tell" this occasionally upsets people.
They really don't want to hear my drama etc ... so why ask a question like that ?
I would rather just hear Hello or Good Morning or whatever ... Not How are you ? .

is this close to the same or not ?
 
crazycharlie.1 said:
after reading this thread , i think something i have been doing for about ten years
is very similar . I do Not like the greeting "How are you?" especially with near strangers
my answer is " Its too early too tell" this occasionally upsets people.
They really don't want to hear my drama etc ... so why ask a question like that ?
I would rather just hear Hello or Good Morning or whatever ... Not How are you ? .

is this close to the same or not ?

Could be speculation on my part, but wouldn't it have to do with the intent and sincerity behind the words?

When I call my parents, whom I do not get to see as much as I would like (nor call as much as I should according to my mother:)), and I ask them how they are doing, it is sincere. I really do want to know how they are doing. I want to know that they are as safe as can be, that they are not sick or something like that.

That to me seems to be a bit different than when I meet a stranger, or casual acquaintance. In this case, it is not said because I truly care, but because of the feeling that it is expected. A training of sort. I have been trained to automatically say it. (Note: Its not that I'm callous, or wish ill will towards them. Its just that I am not close enough with them for it to affect me either way)

The same could be said when someone learns that you have had someone close to you who recently has passed. (I have recently just gone through this last month)
At least in the states, it seems as if it is ingrained in us that to not say "Sorry for your loss" would be rude. Does not even matter if you have never met the person before, as soon as they hear it, the ready made reply is out of their mouths. (As is the reply that is made I just realized, at least for myself.)


It is not that there is any ill intent involved, it is the sincerity of the words and where they are coming from. Are they truly meant and spoken from the heart, or is it just an automated response which was trained?

At least that is what I am looking at, as far as I can understand it.
 
crazycharlie.1 said:
after reading this thread , i think something i have been doing for about ten years
is very similar . I do Not like the greeting "How are you?" especially with near strangers
my answer is " Its too early too tell" this occasionally upsets people.
They really don't want to hear my drama etc ... so why ask a question like that ?
I would rather just hear Hello or Good Morning or whatever ... Not How are you ? .

is this close to the same or not ?

There's something to be said for adhering to conventions for the sake of making things easier for you and for the other person (external consideration). Although the sentiment may lack sincerity, it's pretty much a convention at this point to ask how someone is when meeting them, even for the first time. The conventional response would be "fine" or "good", not to go into a long list of what is bothering you or what's going well. It's just a standard greeting that can be dealt with in the usual way and then move on. I guess what needs to be asked is whether it's worth it to throw a wrench in that usual exchange for the purpose of drawing attention to its lack of sincerity, thereby making the exchange awkward. I think that offering condolences when someone dies is a little different since a) it happens more rarely, and b) sincerity is a more immediate concern.

FWIW.
 
dugdeep said:
crazycharlie.1 said:
after reading this thread , i think something i have been doing for about ten years
is very similar . I do Not like the greeting "How are you?" especially with near strangers
my answer is " Its too early too tell" this occasionally upsets people.
They really don't want to hear my drama etc ... so why ask a question like that ?
I would rather just hear Hello or Good Morning or whatever ... Not How are you ? .

is this close to the same or not ?

There's something to be said for adhering to conventions for the sake of making things easier for you and for the other person (external consideration). Although the sentiment may lack sincerity, it's pretty much a convention at this point to ask how someone is when meeting them, even for the first time. The conventional response would be "fine" or "good", not to go into a long list of what is bothering you or what's going well. It's just a standard greeting that can be dealt with in the usual way and then move on. I guess what needs to be asked is whether it's worth it to throw a wrench in that usual exchange for the purpose of drawing attention to its lack of sincerity, thereby making the exchange awkward. I think that offering condolences when someone dies is a little different since a) it happens more rarely, and b) sincerity is a more immediate concern.

FWIW.

Heh, you may be right. I suppose that it would not be very polite to say "How are you doing, I really dont care but it is the polite thing to ask....please, keep it as short as possible so I can move on."

I guess that there are alot of things that we do in order to maintain some sort of civility. I wonder though, is the problem, if there is one, that it is an automatic response, a response that absolutely zero thought is put into.....it is just blurted out?

I mean, what if I were able to change my mindset and I were able to meet someone new and say in all earnestly, "Hey, how are you doing......No, really, how are you doing, I want to know", and really mean it. HA!..I can imagine the looks now.

Is the program the automation of it? There having no real meaning behind it? I'm not saying that it is good or bad. It just is. But what if I were able to recognize this within myself and change it? To have the ability to really mean it, not just superficially, but all the way into my being? Would that change anything?

I'm not saying that I can do this. Can not say that I will even try at this point. It is just a thought. A simple "I wonder" and "what if?"

We are talking about two different levels here. One a casual greeting and one seeming casual words of regret over loss. I can not however help but wonder if in a way they are not one in the same thing, or am I attempting to link things that are completely different from one another?
 
crazycharlie.1 said:
after reading this thread , i think something i have been doing for about ten years
is very similar . I do Not like the greeting "How are you?" especially with near strangers
my answer is " Its too early too tell" this occasionally upsets people.
They really don't want to hear my drama etc ... so why ask a question like that ?
I would rather just hear Hello or Good Morning or whatever ... Not How are you ? .

is this close to the same or not ?

I think both expressing condolence and asking "how are you" are usually completely mechanical as are many other similar ways of interaction automatically used throughout life. There have been times in my life when the automatic "how are you doing" evoked an inner irritation - "do you really want to know?" However, giving in to the inner irritation and making a response to the other person along those lines may not serve any useful purpose. Instead of making a demand from others who may not be interested or even capable of meeting it, we can use such moments as shocks to remind ourselves of our own mechanicalness and use that energy to strengthen the wish to be more conscious. This is what G was suggesting in case of condolences - that death remind us of our own mortality.

Automatism has its uses in life and it has to do with energy economy which in turn is connected to one's aim. The key is to use automatism when and where applicable instead of being an automaton - osit.
 
I have a question and possibly a point here which I think are applicable to both greetings and condolences.

Does this not have to do with recognizing the dishonesty not only in others, but more importantly within ourselves?

Say that I'm greeting someone who I have known in the past, and no matter the reason, be it an action or even just a "gut" feeling that causes me to not really like the person, yet when I greet them I state the same canned response? In this case, would I not only be being dishonest with the person I am speaking with but also with myself?

Is this something that is going deeper into what G was talking about, or is it something that I am just making up as I go along?

I think what I am saying here with as much sense as I can make of it, it that yes, say what we will say, but at the very least, try to the best of our ability's to recognize the difference between the lies of our words and the truth that is actually in our hearts. Its not a judgment, but a recognition of truth as to who we really are.

I dont know. Perhaps I am either looking at this too deeply or even reading it in the wrong light.
 
It has been an almost life long 'policy' of mine to answer these formulaic questions and standard situations as if the asker-initiator really means what s/he is saying in a heartfelt fashion of deep seated empathy, interest, or whatever. I've always tried to consciously tailor my responses to each and every one of them as best as I could given the specific circumstances and occasions, and my concurrent state of being as well.

This seems, in my experience at least, a very adequate exercise for observing, staying in the moment, self remembering and external consideration -- all wrapped into one. ;)

Usually, this brings about in the other person a mild form of bewilderment so to say, which in many cases proved to be a good starting point for some really meaningful exchange thereafter -- not necessarily about the initial subject though. It's a bit of a provocative and therefore risky approach as it can bring some people in a state of annoyance, frustration, revulsion, anger or even rage -- especially when my assessment of their receivership capability is lacking. To handle all what ensues adequately, is just another lesson I've learned to try to master by knowing in advance over time to expect a possible adverse reaction to my 'provocation'. All is lessons, ultimately; provided no real harm is done if possible.

FWIW.
 
Palinurus said:
This seems, in my experience at least, a very adequate exercise for observing, staying in the moment, self remembering and external consideration -- all wrapped into one. ;)

I really like the thought of this. Thats pretty cool :)
 
quote from Crimson Eagle:

Say that I'm greeting someone who I have known in the past, and no matter the reason, be it an action or even just a "gut" feeling that causes me to not really like the person, yet when I greet them I state the same canned response? In this case, would I not only be being dishonest with the person I am speaking with but also with myself?

I think that these "canned responses" can be viewed as the social oil that greases the machinery of interaction on the most basic level during such instances.


There are many common expressions brought into play that express emotions more bluntly than words ever could.

Eye contact, for example, is very expressive. If you're speaking words of condolence, and your eyes are wandering around the room seeking out someone more compatible with whom you wish to speak, a very powerful message has just been sent. If your arms are crossed over your chest as you're speaking to the person or shifting from one foot to another, two very powerful messages have just been sent and received perhaps on levels not picked up by ordinary awareness. These messages may change the emotions of the persons sending and receiving them in such subtle ways that each might feel something, but not know consciously what it is and what gave rise to them.

In terms of death, well we're all dying all the time in ways that subtle and registered below consciousness. For example, a parent may suddenly realize after years of raising a child, that the child no longer needs the parent in the way he or she did before. Or a worker may suddenly be notified that that the company he or she has worked for no longer needs his skills. Or someone may realize that he or she can not run as fast as before, or remember as many details, or find that his or her neighborhood hospital is being closed, or the special tree that one looked at for years and years is being cut down.

We all die all the time and the world we inhabit and love dies with us. To understand the human condition, and to be gentle with it, respectful of the human being standing before us with his or her own pains, short comings, unrealized hopes, is to, I think, begin to really feel for another, and then the words may not seem so empty when spoken.
 
Seems G was just trying to share his catalyst. Gotta keep that old alarm clock working... tick, tock... tick, tock...birth, death... breathe in, breath out...
 
Palinurus said:
It has been an almost life long 'policy' of mine to answer these formulaic questions and standard situations as if the asker-initiator really means what s/he is saying in a heartfelt fashion of deep seated empathy, interest, or whatever. I've always tried to consciously tailor my responses to each and every one of them as best as I could given the specific circumstances and occasions, and my concurrent state of being as well.

This seems, in my experience at least, a very adequate exercise for observing, staying in the moment, self remembering and external consideration -- all wrapped into one. ;)

Usually, this brings about in the other person a mild form of bewilderment so to say, which in many cases proved to be a good starting point for some really meaningful exchange thereafter -- not necessarily about the initial subject though. It's a bit of a provocative and therefore risky approach as it can bring some people in a state of annoyance, frustration, revulsion, anger or even rage -- especially when my assessment of their receivership capability is lacking. To handle all what ensues adequately, is just another lesson I've learned to try to master by knowing in advance over time to expect a possible adverse reaction to my 'provocation'. All is lessons, ultimately; provided no real harm is done if possible.

FWIW.

I think that's not being externally considerate. The externally considerate thing to do would be to answer "Doing well! How 'bout you?" To the formulaic "How are you?"

Also, I find when I respond that way it makes me think that I really am doing well, despite the fact that I might have been feeling blah, or worried about something.

I think it's best to respond to what people are really asking for, instead of reading their words literally.
 
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