Observation must begin from the beginning

obyvatel said:

The Strawman said:

I've started self-observation. To begin with, identifying the centres related to a function was an impenetrable maze - I couldn't distinguish even simple actions or behaviours in terms of centres - then I read what G says about it again, and think I managed to identify a couple of functions 'live' - I seem to have realised that I am thinking-centre dominated. Emotion is suppressed and always has been. I always regarded emotion as primitive - a sort of low-level, unevolved human function to be mastered and controlled.

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Emotions often tend to call the shots from behind the scenes, affecting thinking and the body. We call it "emotional thinking". It may give the appearance of being dominated by the thinking function but it is not. Similarly, some chronic bodily discomfort which has gotten "familiar" enough can easily drive emotions and thoughts without us being aware of it. These are some facts which make the study of centers complicated.

I do not know if it is possible to clearly and cleanly delienate the thinking, feeling and sensing functions in terms of behavior. They are usually inextricably mixed up. That is why efforts to decouple thought, feeling and sensation to some degree is important imo.

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Indeed, every center manifest in each other. Though I think just studying the centers and observing it may not be completely useful, unless as Grudjieff says, you have an aim, an objective to accomplish and everything that does not work in favor of it is a sin. So of course there comes the idea of gravity center and such.

So answering to one of the OP questions, "what the hell I am?" that is an interesting question as it leads to a lot of reflection to a point where you may not find a real answer. As everybody believes what they are based on what other people tell them they are such as: cute, intelligent, ugly, lazy, successful, impulsive, etc. Because it's easy to conform yourself to what everybody tells you what you are, and is easy to tell other people what they are, but discovering your own self... oh no that is a delicate work, not everyone does that but everybody pretends they do (except for the people in this forum), most of the people do not really know what they really are at the core, they may acknowledge their actual situation.

But then you find yourself when you just have deep contact with yourself, when you really have that peaceful moment to listen to your heart, to give you a chance to sincerely talk to yourself and recognize that you never ever had a real chance to chose so you don't really understand what you are. And I think that's why observing yourself is important, is like you put attention to what you are, hear closely what you say, how you react, what you need, what you don't need.

So in my humble opinion, you are what to chose to be, you can either be the little mouse or the golden lion, but you have to sincerely chose it and work on it. If you wait for something to tell what you are you'll end being nothing, or being the prey of some fella that loves to dominate (a big reason of why psychopaths have power, because of people so lazy to chose for themselves). And if you want to know about it more, i'd digger to know more about those bits of info already shared, google is your best friend and the recommended books. Knowing thyself is not enough without knowing how the psychological organ works. So the recommended cognitive psychology books may work wonders, I think the book "Thinking fast and slow" is a good one, as it focus on the unconscious process and well, this is pretty much the kingdom of emotions. SOTT has an entire section of articles about psychology experiments, researches, is a treasure for the matter.

Heck, read everything, for one reason after reading a lot of one stuff pieces fit together and you get the idea of what you want to know. And is fun as it relieves pain and I don't know it's just fun. I haven't read the polyvagal theory as it seems to be really complicate stuff, but I think the nervous system and all related to it can be used to explain emotions too - because the emotions are just sensations that manifest together in certain type of order and cycle, then the mind start making interpretations of them, is like some kind of super body-self way to communicate to ourselves -. The point is doing it, believe me it gives certain type of self power.

[quote author=The Strawman]
I think I am self-remembering, albeit for very short periods of time - a second or two. I remove my focus from everything external, as well as thoughts relating to the external - including memory and imagination. For that second or two I am totally aware of being aware. I experience the fact that 'I am' but the 'I' involved does not consist of a person with my name, or the experiences and memories of that person. I can only hold it for a second or two. I then struggle for three or four seconds with my focus until I get it back again.
[/quote]

These moments can occur spontaneously and last for short times but do not necessarily involve a dissolution of self-hood. Rather it is like an unbiased observer who is viewing the self who is aware. This observer needs to have a higher quality of energy to be available in the organism to become active. One term used for this energy is conscious energy. This energy is ordinarily produced in very small quantities which is why it is very difficult to "be aware of being aware" for any sustained period of time.

I think it is useful to talk about energy in this context. Ordinary existence for us is largely using a type of energy which can be called "automatic energy" in 4th Way terms. The internal and external sensing apparati create an internal image of the world with input from memories of past experiences. This image falls on the screen of the mind and drives the moving-instinctive, feeling and thinking centers in a feedback loop. This process goes on all the time and runs on automatic energy. At this level, we are little more than reaction machines based on past conditioning. A sequence of buttons being pressed brings about a complex and sophisticated but programmed reaction. There is not even a stable sense of "I" in such a state - at least not what sustains for any reasonable length of time.

One step above the automatic energy lies what can be called sensitive energy. This energy is also generated in some quantity through the normal process of eating food, breathing air and assimilating impressions. Sensitive energy, when not wasted in imagination and daydreaming, allows us to be aware of ourselves. We can be aware of our voices as we speak, aware of our body as we walk, and aware of of our thoughts as we have them. To use sensitive energy this way requires our "will" to be employed - since this is not automatic. This what is referred to as the first conscious shock in ISOTM. Doing this type of exercise can energize us since the energy is not wasted in running useless thought loops.

To utilize sensitive energy properly, the centers need some education. The thinking center should have some data which would allow it to properly utilize the ability given by the sensitive energy to go beyond the 1-2 or black-white thinking. The moving center needs to be educated to perform movements wasting the minimum amount of energy going beyond the automatic postures and tensions which we tend to hold. Certain stoic principles about moral/ethical issues can be useful for educating the emotional center. Such education is needed to ensure that the centers can properly use the energy generated. Without such education, the energy if or when available pulls us in directions which are ultimately wasteful. Per my understanding, for growth of being, sensitive energy is the lowest level of energy that is needed. Automatic energy does not lead to growth of being.

Most mystical schools and traditional religions that I am familiar with start talking from the level of conscious energy and how it can stand apart from sensitive energy. When there is enough conscious energy available and it is not absorbed in the workings of the organism, it is possible to have a different sense of self and time. As mentioned earlier, sometimes one can come to such states accidentally. One can also actively work towards such states through meditative practices and other preparations. In 4th Way, such preparations are said to move towards the second conscious shock. The big difference between the 4th Way and other legitimate schools in this regard, as far as I can understand, is that the first conscious shock which serves as preparation of the human instruments to carry out some higher purpose is the starting point for 4th Way whereas the second shock which leads towards dissolution of personal identity is the starting point for other paths.

I have very little experience with conscious energy. Some years earlier when I used to practice some forms of breathing and meditation, I got some sustained glimpses of a state of absolute quiet and the awareness of being aware. It felt good. However, it did not, in my case at least, lead to what I would recognize as growth of being. Such states have a strong attraction and unless balanced with growth of being through cultivation of sensitive energy, it can imo become a detriment in the 4th Way path. The "flow" can be artifically induced as well but such methods have little if any objective benefits.

[quote author=The Strawman]
The other thing I am wondering about is related to energy. Or at least I think it is. When I am self-remembering (if that's what it is) I sometimes experience the sensation of my body being full of energy. I have had this before over the years, especially when I have read or heard about something new that resonated with me in the context of being a revelation.

Now I can produce this sensation at will. I focus in the solar plexus area and sort of open up and I feel the 'energy' up to my neck and down as far as my upper legs. If I go somewhere quiet, where I can concentrate, I can direct the energy into any part of my body, including my brain/mind.

My question on that one is do you think it is something worth looking into and developing, or is it a mere psychological phenomenon that can't go anywhere, except as a distraction?

Has anyone experienced these things, or anything similar?
[/quote]

I do not think that such things are just psychological phenomena. As long as we recognize such things as a means to an end, I think they are useful for cultivating energy. The energy is needed to balance and improve the functioning of our centers. As Gurdjieff said (paraphrasing), " To give you must have" and I believe he was talking in terms of energy which is the currency through which understanding comes and being grows. So this energy needs to be utilized in ways that benefit us as well as others.

I have very little experience with conscious energy. Some years earlier when I used to practice some forms of breathing and meditation, I got some sustained glimpses of a state of absolute quiet and the awareness of being aware. It felt good. However, it did not, in my case at least, lead to what I would recognize as growth of being. Such states have a strong attraction and unless balanced with growth of being through cultivation of sensitive energy, it can imo become a detriment in the 4th Way path. The "flow" can be artifically induced as well but such methods have little if any objective benefits.

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Hi obyvatel,

I'm not sure whether I misunderstood you here, but wouldn't a state of absolute quiet be a state where automatic programs have ceased to run thus freeing up energy which can be used for growth? My understanding is that it's hard to feel oneself growing in the moment, but is easy to identify while reflecting on the past. So if someone ever feels like they are stagnating they can just look back at the progress they have made since they started the work and see that they are growing.

Merry Christmas. :)

Archaea said:

I have very little experience with conscious energy. Some years earlier when I used to practice some forms of breathing and meditation, I got some sustained glimpses of a state of absolute quiet and the awareness of being aware. It felt good. However, it did not, in my case at least, lead to what I would recognize as growth of being. Such states have a strong attraction and unless balanced with growth of being through cultivation of sensitive energy, it can imo become a detriment in the 4th Way path. The "flow" can be artificially induced as well but such methods have little if any objective benefits.

Click to expand...

Hi obyvatel,

I'm not sure whether I misunderstood you here, but wouldn't a state of absolute quiet be a state where automatic programs have ceased to run thus freeing up energy which can be used for growth?

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The state of absolute quiet is not easily achieved and most of the traditionally known methods to cultivate this state involves isolating oneself from life for periods of time. When it comes, it gives a sense of peace and "bliss", which is much better than the normal state in which we spend our lives. Hence it has the element of attraction and is usually accompanied by a desire to prolong the duration of this state. If one falls for this desire, then the degree of isolation from life tends to increase. This goes against the basic tenet of 4th Way.

When you say that the energy freed up can be used for growth, it is true in principle but in practice the proper apparatus has to be in place so that the energy conversion can take place. If one is able to generate a significant amount of conscious energy through monastic-like practices but has not worked on training and balancing out the functions (moving, feeling, thinking) which can make use of that energy in practical activities, then it is not useful from a 4th Way perspective.

My current understanding is that in order to engage with life creatively, the activities which run on automatic energy do not need to be eliminated altogether. What is needed is to discipline and educate our functions so that they do not interfere with our goals and do not run the show but follow the dictates of something higher. I find it convenient to think of this "higher" and "lower" in terms of energies.

The state of absolute quiet is not easily achieved and most of the traditionally known methods to cultivate this state involves isolating oneself from life for periods of time. When it comes, it gives a sense of peace and "bliss", which is much better than the normal state in which we spend our lives. Hence it has the element of attraction and is usually accompanied by a desire to prolong the duration of this state. If one falls for this desire, then the degree of isolation from life tends to increase. This goes against the basic tenet of 4th Way.

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I can see how that works, it feels good to achieve this state of absolute quiet so it becomes a kind of addiction which is antithetical to the 4th way work. I think maybe this method of achieving silence is different and a bit more powerful than what I was thinking. Usually to clear my head I just try to listen to the sounds around me or try to focus on moving different parts of my body. I've found that doing this can help me to stop the internal dialogue, although I wouldn't call it a state of absolute quiet. I think from doing this that states of quiet can spring up almost out of nowhere, which I think is related to not using energy on self talk. Essentially, I think what you described here:

One step above the automatic energy lies what can be called sensitive energy. This energy is also generated in some quantity through the normal process of eating food, breathing air and assimilating impressions. Sensitive energy, when not wasted in imagination and daydreaming, allows us to be aware of ourselves. We can be aware of our voices as we speak, aware of our body as we walk, and aware of of our thoughts as we have them. To use sensitive energy this way requires our "will" to be employed - since this is not automatic. This what is referred to as the first conscious shock in ISOTM. Doing this type of exercise can energize us since the energy is not wasted in running useless thought loops.

Click to expand...

Is a good way to start gathering energy as well as a good way to use it. I think as a person goes about their daily business they can have a go at trying to listen to their voices as they talk and being aware of their bodies as they walk, it only has to be for a moment at a time in the beginning, but I think as time goes on their ability to be aware of their external environment will increase as a result of saving energy.

I'm not very familiar with the 4th way stuff, all I really know about it is what I've read in the wave and on this forum, but I think I understand what I guess could be called "Castaneda's model" of saving energy. In Castaneda's model most of our energy is used up by our internal dialogue and our self-importance, so what we need to do is learn to silence our minds and learn to laugh at ourselves. In this way we stop feeding the predator and it eventually leaves and we're left only with our true personality.

When you say that the energy freed up can be used for growth, it is true in principle but in practice the proper apparatus has to be in place so that the energy conversion can take place. If one is able to generate a significant amount of conscious energy through monastic-like practices but has not worked on training and balancing out the functions (moving, feeling, thinking) which can make use of that energy in practical activities, then it is not useful from a 4th Way perspective.

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I like this idea of creating and using an apparatus for using energy constructively. I'm curious about what an apparatus could be. For example, I'm interested in developing my communication skills, which I think is the lower intellectual centre. So could this forum be an example of an apparatus which could be used for this purpose? Also could, say, a mountain be used as an apparatus to use moving centre energy? Or relationships or situations be used as an apparatus to use feeling energy constructively?

Archaea said:

One step above the automatic energy lies what can be called sensitive energy. This energy is also generated in some quantity through the normal process of eating food, breathing air and assimilating impressions. Sensitive energy, when not wasted in imagination and daydreaming, allows us to be aware of ourselves. We can be aware of our voices as we speak, aware of our body as we walk, and aware of of our thoughts as we have them. To use sensitive energy this way requires our "will" to be employed - since this is not automatic. This what is referred to as the first conscious shock in ISOTM. Doing this type of exercise can energize us since the energy is not wasted in running useless thought loops.

Click to expand...

Is a good way to start gathering energy as well as a good way to use it. I think as a person goes about their daily business they can have a go at trying to listen to their voices as they talk and being aware of their bodies as they walk, it only has to be for a moment at a time in the beginning, but I think as time goes on their ability to be aware of their external environment will increase as a result of saving energy.

I'm not very familiar with the 4th way stuff, all I really know about it is what I've read in the wave and on this forum, but I think I understand what I guess could be called "Castaneda's model" of saving energy. In Castaneda's model most of our energy is used up by our internal dialogue and our self-importance, so what we need to do is learn to silence our minds and learn to laugh at ourselves. In this way we stop feeding the predator and it eventually leaves and we're left only with our true personality.

Click to expand...

The way I interpreted "silencing our minds" is to make it quiet - which is very difficult to achieve in practice and needs specialized efforts and a certain level of isolation from life. Efforts at self-remembering is a more practical way of redirecting energy which is otherwise lost in mental chatter and daydreaming in a way that strengthens "being".

Laughing at oneself is a practice which works on reducing one's egoism. However, Gurdjieff put emphasis on self-remembering first before working on one's egosim. There is healthy and unhealthy egoism and to understand what is useful and what is not, a certain level of being is necessary.


[quote author=Archaea]

When you say that the energy freed up can be used for growth, it is true in principle but in practice the proper apparatus has to be in place so that the energy conversion can take place. If one is able to generate a significant amount of conscious energy through monastic-like practices but has not worked on training and balancing out the functions (moving, feeling, thinking) which can make use of that energy in practical activities, then it is not useful from a 4th Way perspective.

Click to expand...

I like this idea of creating and using an apparatus for using energy constructively. I'm curious about what an apparatus could be. For example, I'm interested in developing my communication skills, which I think is the lower intellectual centre. So could this forum be an example of an apparatus which could be used for this purpose? Also could, say, a mountain be used as an apparatus to use moving centre energy? Or relationships or situations be used as an apparatus to use feeling energy constructively?
[/quote]

Let us take your example of developing communication skills. Improving communication skills would involve training the intellectual, emotional and moving centers. Training the intellectual center involves learning about good practices in this area which are based on research and known to yield practical results. Reading " Crucial Conversations " could be an example of this. Training the emotional center could involve becoming more emotionally sensitive oneself, recognizing different feelings that arise in oneself and others and working on keeping one's own emotions under control during communicating. Training the moving center would involve learning about body language so that one can be sensitive to cues given out by oneself as well as others. Getting rid of unwanted tensions in the body and holding the appropriate relaxed posture while communicating can enhance the effect of communication. One example is voice - one can have the best message but if that is communicated in a strained/tense voice, the effect of the message is lowered or even reversed if the other person picks up on the tension of the voice and starts reacting to it "unconsciously".
One can have the best of intention while entering into a communication with someone else but if the centers are not trained or able to translate that intention into a practical, usable form, then the results will not be good. At the same time, even when the centers are trained, unless there is a degree of presence or being which comes from self-remembering, then one can easily get lost in the conversation and be unable to use the trained centers appropriately in real time interactions. One can see examples like this often - we may have the intention and we may have read the right books, but when it comes to practical application, things kind of become a fog and we do far less than what we are capable of.

So what I meant by apparatus for converting energy of a higher order is this. Suppose somehow we have access to the most stupendous information which comes from some higher source or energy. Now unless the functions (thinking, feeling and moving centers) are trained well and unless there is a stable level of being or presence, even if we have this information and the will to disseminate it, we may not be able to do it in a way that is practically useful. We are the apparatus for transforming higher energies into practical forms for utilization at this level. Improving our functions and working on our being makes us more efficient and tuned energy conversion stations which can serve a purpose higher than what we automatically serve in our default state of existence.

Does that make sense?

The way I interpreted "silencing our minds" is to make it quiet - which is very difficult to achieve in practice and needs specialized efforts and a certain level of isolation from life. Efforts at self-remembering is a more practical way of redirecting energy which is otherwise lost in mental chatter and daydreaming in a way that strengthens "being".

Laughing at oneself is a practice which works on reducing one's egoism. However, Gurdjieff put emphasis on self-remembering first before working on one's egosim. There is healthy and unhealthy egoism and to understand what is useful and what is not, a certain level of being is necessary.

Click to expand...

I see, the way I interpreted silencing the mind is just stopping the mental chatter, and I think self-remembering might be a good way to do that. I'm also curious of what an example of healthy egoism could be, and also how you define the word ego. I think of the word ego to be synonymous with self-importance and wishful thinking, although I'll admit that I think this because I read A course in miracles.

Let us take your example of developing communication skills. Improving communication skills would involve training the intellectual, emotional and moving centers. Training the intellectual center involves learning about good practices in this area which are based on research and known to yield practical results. Reading " Crucial Conversations " could be an example of this. Training the emotional center could involve becoming more emotionally sensitive oneself, recognizing different feelings that arise in oneself and others and working on keeping one's own emotions under control during communicating. Training the moving center would involve learning about body language so that one can be sensitive to cues given out by oneself as well as others. Getting rid of unwanted tensions in the body and holding the appropriate relaxed posture while communicating can enhance the effect of communication. One example is voice - one can have the best message but if that is communicated in a strained/tense voice, the effect of the message is lowered or even reversed if the other person picks up on the tension of the voice and starts reacting to it "unconsciously".
One can have the best of intention while entering into a communication with someone else but if the centers are not trained or able to translate that intention into a practical, usable form, then the results will not be good. At the same time, even when the centers are trained, unless there is a degree of presence or being which comes from self-remembering, then one can easily get lost in the conversation and be unable to use the trained centers appropriately in real time interactions. One can see examples like this often - we may have the intention and we may have read the right books, but when it comes to practical application, things kind of become a fog and we do far less than what we are capable of.

So what I meant by apparatus for converting energy of a higher order is this. Suppose somehow we have access to the most stupendous information which comes from some higher source or energy. Now unless the functions (thinking, feeling and moving centers) are trained well and unless there is a stable level of being or presence, even if we have this information and the will to disseminate it, we may not be able to do it in a way that is practically useful. We are the apparatus for transforming higher energies into practical forms for utilization at this level. Improving our functions and working on our being makes us more efficient and tuned energy conversion stations which can serve a purpose higher than what we automatically serve in our default state of existence.

Does that make sense?

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I think so, the apparatuses to use the energy that gets saved are the centers. So an approach to balancing the centers might be to:

1) Try to remember that I should be paying attention to my voice and body.
2) Pay attention to my voice and body.
3) Figure out what actions happen automatically and when and why they occur.
4) Use 'will' to try to prevent them from occurring, or failing that, strategically avoid the things that cause them to occur.

Do you think that would be method that could work and/or am I missing something?

Archaea said:

I'm also curious of what an example of healthy egoism could be, and also how you define the word ego. I think of the word ego to be synonymous with self-importance and wishful thinking, although I'll admit that I think this because I read A course in miracles.

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I consider ego to be the sense of self as a distinct entity. When we have a distorted sense of self based on wishful thinking, there can be excess self-importance which can lead to unhealthy egoism. At the same time, we need to have a certain strength in our sense of self in order to struggle against the external situation for our aims. This is what I consider to be healthy egoism. Not having enough of this can result in someone becoming a passive, go with the flow kind of person. Such a person may recognize that things could be better than what they are, but does not have the strength to actually do something about it.

[quote author=Archaea]

So an approach to balancing the centers might be to:

1) Try to remember that I should be paying attention to my voice and body.
2) Pay attention to my voice and body.
3) Figure out what actions happen automatically and when and why they occur.
4) Use 'will' to try to prevent them from occurring, or failing that, strategically avoid the things that cause them to occur.

Do you think that would be method that could work and/or am I missing something?
[/quote]

I think this is basically on the right track. In the 4th Way method, one is first encouraged to self-observe to gather enough material about oneself as one is before trying to change anything. Also, continuous knowledge input to educate the different centers is essential to the overall scheme. Others see us better than we see ourselves - so networking and taking input of others into consideration is a vital component of knowledge input.

Emotional thinking is, I think, the key to moving on in The Work for me. It's easy for me to see this in action now it has been given a 'label' and I am aware of it. But it seems that emotion is as important as any other function of the human being/machine. Harnessing emotion is a clear aim for me now.

This forum stimulates emotion in me. Something I read just now from fellow member Buddy struck me as describing exactly how I experience being here - "I'm ... really tired of feeling like I keep messing up on here." In fact that particular dynamic spurred me to open this thread.

I won't presume to speak for Buddy, but this community is obviously important to me or I wouldn't feel as though I have to tread so carefully in what I say. Yes, I must strive to achieve external considering. When I am perceived by others to have failed in that then I analyse what I have said. Sometimes I see the failure. Other times, in fact, I haven't failed - others have read my message in terms of their own projections and failed to take what I wrote objectively and with a desire to help, objectively. The need then arises to explain and defend myself. But I'm at the point where I am losing the inclination to do so. It becomes too tiring, and the idea of becoming regarded as a disruptive influence is not attractive.

But the idea of laying down and allowing my-self to remain misunderstood and misinterpreted is also unattractive.

This seems to be a sticking point for me. Any thoughts on this would be very welcome.

The Strawman said:

This forum stimulates emotion in me. Something I read just now from fellow member Buddy struck me as describing exactly how I experience being here - "I'm ... really tired of feeling like I keep messing up on here." In fact that particular dynamic spurred me to open this thread.

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This forum stimulates emotion in me - sometimes strong emotion - and has for the past five years. For me, the issue is complex. On one side, I think I'm better at work than I really am, but I'd have the stats of perfect posting interactions to prove it if it were true. On another side, I have my understanding of reality and have found that everyone who has a model of the universe also wants to share theirs and have it adopted by others to some extent. I'm no different in that regard. Of course, blending is better and some difficulty is inherent in meshing maps in a consistent, non-contradictory way, but I've come far.

My experience with people in the past validates the info on psychopathology and its effects and so we have agreement on fundamentals which is easy to build on. We also have lots of other interests and motivations in common, so I've been able to stick to it and stay afloat mostly, though I'm sometimes impressed and often intimidated by the clarity of mind some members seem to have. That is sure to prompt inferiority issues to deal with. Loads of fun, that.

The Strawman said:

I won't presume to speak for Buddy, but this community is obviously important to me or I wouldn't feel as though I have to tread so carefully in what I say. Yes, I must strive to achieve external considering. When I am perceived by others to have failed in that then I analyse what I have said. Sometimes I see the failure. Other times, in fact, I haven't failed - others have read my message in terms of their own projections and failed to take what I wrote objectively and with a desire to help, objectively. The need then arises to explain and defend myself. But I'm at the point where I am losing the inclination to do so. It becomes too tiring, and the idea of becoming regarded as a disruptive influence is not attractive.

But the idea of laying down and allowing my-self to remain misunderstood and misinterpreted is also unattractive.

This seems to be a sticking point for me. Any thoughts on this would be very welcome.

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Inner doubts about our own existence as personalities combined with fears from various mysterious sources such as impermanence, finality of death, meaningfulness of life and just all kinds of things can throw us off the path when we are at our weakest.

Continual communication so that fellow members can see our struggle will increase the possibility that aid will come in time. Sometimes we need a mirror, but more often I think we just need to feel someone is listening who cares and won't judge too quickly. I'm finding that kind of support (when I share what I'm really feeling) so naturally I also want to offer it. :)

We needed that as kids, and unless our need was thoroughly satisfied, I suspect it's still there for most of us.

The Strawman said:

Other times, in fact, I haven't failed - others have read my message in terms of their own projections and failed to take what I wrote objectively and with a desire to help, objectively. The need then arises to explain and defend myself. But I'm at the point where I am losing the inclination to do so. It becomes too tiring, and the idea of becoming regarded as a disruptive influence is not attractive.

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I feel moved to address your comments directly since I understand what you are saying. There are still some examples on this forum where something I wrote remains misunderstood even after repeated explanations concerning other major or minor related points. Some things you just have to let go of if, in truth, it's a minor point and the urge to continually correct it might relate more to self/idea-importance than the line of development of the topic or thread.

For instance, obyvatel (close your eyes obyvatel) probably still thinks my remark about drugs on that thread you refer to was related to something he said, when in fact, my comments on that post intended to solely address Laura's concerns which were related to my thoughts that came from the tiny quote about PubMed Central that she was responding to. Clarifying that specifically in addition to 'defending myself' about something else seemed unimportant in the larger picture.

Really, because mis-communications happen often on other forums as well and if you get involved in correcting every single perceived misunderstanding, you can get lost at an absurd level of detail. A big part of the problem might be that text, like words, is a very small percentage of communication. We are missing the benefit of physical presence and the thousands of signals from our bodies and expressions that better communicate our intent and meanings. I know this intellectually but sometimes forget.

The iterations and re-iterations require energy and anything requiring energy can be entropic and lead to loss of emotional power, so we also have to weigh text-based activities with other activities that can replenish us.

No matter how bad my feelings and attitude has gotten from an interaction, I always feel better later. So, take whatever time you need to process everything. There's no "standard" metabolic rate for everybody, I think. :)

The Strawman said:

Yes, I must strive to achieve external considering. When I am perceived by others to have failed in that then I analyse what I have said. Sometimes I see the failure. Other times, in fact, I haven't failed - others have read my message in terms of their own projections and failed to take what I wrote objectively and with a desire to help, objectively.

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Yes, misunderstandings happen. That is simply the reality that we need to accept. We are all hindered by our individual subjective lenses and only by working together can we aspire to reach higher degrees of objectivity.

[quote author=The Strawman]
The need then arises to explain and defend myself. But I'm at the point where I am losing the inclination to do so. It becomes too tiring, and the idea of becoming regarded as a disruptive influence is not attractive.

But the idea of laying down and allowing my-self to remain misunderstood and misinterpreted is also unattractive.

This seems to be a sticking point for me. Any thoughts on this would be very welcome.

[/quote]

Part of the issue here seems to be an underlying "me vs the others" mindset. If that is the case, then communicating can become a struggle. Misunderstandings can arise on a point of discussion but it is not necessary to personalize the misunderstanding.

From my experience, self-importance sometimes plays a role in this. Sometimes, we may be called on the general dynamic of the situation and we try to stick to a "point" we made, stake our credibility on that point and insist on our rightness. This is akin to not seeing the forest but staying stuck in the trees. What has helped me is to remember that the goal of this forum is to not score points but to help each other grow in knowledge and understanding.


Personally, I cannot directly control emotions. Emotional thinking however can be recognized by certain signs - like it is accompanied by a sense of impatience. The intellectual center working by itself is not in a tearing hurry to make the point. So when I see this hurry, I tend to wait. Emotional thinking also tends to see one end of the stick - black and white thinking in other words. Taking a pause and deliberately seeing the other end of the stick can be an useful exercise if or when this happens. This is an internal exercise meant to bring a different kind of energy in our thinking so that more light can be shed on the issue at hand. When we can see the possible other end of the stick, we can try to see the situation from different angles before responding. This to me is Gurdjieff's active reasoning.

There is also properly representing what we deliberate in our minds and that is related to communication skills. This is more of an art than a science and not everyone responds to the same approach. But from our side, we can follow some good practices. Suppose a situation evokes certain memories based on past experience. Where practical, sharing the experience and what we learnt from it can help put things into proper perspective for others and keeps a lid on unconscious projections from our side.

fwiw

You've voiced many of my own thoughts, Buddy. As I read your posts things that were hazy became clear. I then realised that the struggle that we seem to have in common is a struggle because that particular part of our machines, or those particular 'I's most need attention. I'm not suggesting that I know you Buddy, but it definitely helps when people are exploring a similar difficulty. I can see that's one of the many benefits of networking.

Receiving objective responses from those well along the path can seem cold and harsh. I've felt this. Especially when despite trying hard to be objective myself, and feeling as though I'm succeeding, beneath that objectivity is a desire for a positive emotional response. To me this suggests, in my case anyway, that my objectivity is only coming from one centre - thinking. So perhaps the emotional centre is merely suppressed, giving the illusion of objectivity.

So are those well along the path objective emotionally? That must be amazing. Can emotion be objective? That must be the case. G points out, if I've understood correctly, that objective consciousness is the pinnacle, in terms of the five consciousnesses. I'm really talking to myself here - I know many here realised these things long ago. Self-importance hates having to play catchup. But as Buddy says "So, take whatever time you need to process everything. There's no "standard" metabolic rate for everybody, I think." :D

Obyvatel, yes, you have shown the insight that Buddy and I can find impressive or intimidating :) And I thank you so much for that. The "me vs the others" mindset is definitely a factor. All through this life, like so many, I have felt 'different' to most others. This was experienced as negative until a few years ago, and had manifested as the classic inferiority complex. I fought it by placing myself into competitive scenarios, especially physical. I suspect the armed forces are full of people who felt/feel inferior. And the further they go within that institution in terms of those 'special' forces the more inferiority they are trying to expunge. The other motivation for such participation is of course psychopathy.

I hope I have come a long way from that particular dysfunction in my machine. I hasten to reiterate that mine was inferiority, not psychopathy. I haven't felt inferior for a good few years, and the 'feeling different' lessens as I become more aware of self-importance.

And you are right of course, in relation to misunderstandings and communication - this is the reality that we simply have to accept. And it is simple. I had a promising 'awakening' yesterday that I hope isn't transient (it's lasted a full 24 hours now ;) ) - not directly related to misunderstandings. I became aware that I had been smiling at people in situations that would normally not have produced a smile, and in some cases would often have produced mild aggression. Mainly while driving, which I did a lot of yesterday. You have to give way a lot where I live, or have the way given to you. I was giving way every time and feeling so peaceful about it. I was smiling as I received waves of acknowledgement from other drivers - and even when there was no acknowledgment, which was rare to be fair. It didn't matter either way. It wasn't at all a deliberate, conscious way of being. I had been doing it all day and only became conscious of it on my way home at the end of the day.

I realised that it is simple to feel loving to people. It seems to take no energy, unlike competing, or trying to be 'right' - there is nothing to lose and much to gain. This has continued into today. The thing is I have known this intellectually for years, but haven't been able to really live it. I hope it lasts.

"There is also properly representing what we deliberate in our minds and that is related to communication skills. This is more of an art than a science and not everyone responds to the same approach. But from our side, we can follow some good practices. Suppose a situation evokes certain memories based on past experience. Where practical, sharing the experience and what we learnt from it can help put things into proper perspective for others and keeps a lid on unconscious projections from our side."

I can see the beauty in this, and why you say it is an art. I could laugh with the pleasure of reading that. I aim to become a good artist.

I was reading through other threads and thought of something that I feel I need to post. That previous sentence was filtered - I was originally going to say "I was struck by something out of the blue" - I then thought how dramatic - how childish.

And this relates to the thought I am posting about. Buddy, may I ask if you were allowed to be a child when you were growing up? Let me explain what just happened - the sequence of thoughts:

I suddenly had an sharp awareness of how childish I am.

I then remembered this that you wrote "We needed that as kids, and unless our need was thoroughly satisfied, I suspect it's still there for most of us."

I then remembered that I spent my growing years parenting my parents. That's how I experienced it anyway. They were both deeply unhappy and damaged people. So I had to parent my younger brother too.

I'm now not exactly sure where I am trying to go with this. Once again thoughts from others would be welcome....

... okay, I left this post for five minutes then came back. I displayed the very childishness I was posting about, by presenting a stream of consciousness and a request for answers. The 'impatience' that Obyvatel mentioned in terms of emotional thinking was clearly demonstrated.

Back to the present now. I am mildly embarrassed. Only mildly because I am here in this forum. I now find myself attempting to identify with this 'awakening' to my childishness. Fortunately I was reading Hesper's thread - seeking a new crystallisation - earlier (I think it's in the Swamp so I won't post the link) and someone warned about identifying with thoughts and emotions.

Just humour me. I'll get there :)

The Strawman said:

Receiving objective responses from those well along the path can seem cold and harsh. I've felt this. Especially when despite trying hard to be objective myself, and feeling as though I'm succeeding, beneath that objectivity is a desire for a positive emotional response. To me this suggests, in my case anyway, that my objectivity is only coming from one centre - thinking. So perhaps the emotional centre is merely suppressed, giving the illusion of objectivity.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by "trying hard to be objective myself"? What does "trying" consist of? Can you describe these efforts?

The Strawman said:

Buddy, may I ask if you were allowed to be a child when you were growing up?

Click to expand...

Not for long. I'm second oldest of five kids and the oldest male. My parents divorced before I was ten and until I turned 18 and left home the majority of my life was spent being responsible for younger siblings and the parent - even to the point of cooking and cleaning and answering for the younger one's mis-behavior.

The Strawman said:

Let me explain what just happened - the sequence of thoughts:

I suddenly had an sharp awareness of how childish I am.

I then remembered this that you wrote "We needed that as kids, and unless our need was thoroughly satisfied, I suspect it's still there for most of us."

I then remembered that I spent my growing years parenting my parents. That's how I experienced it anyway. They were both deeply unhappy and damaged people. So I had to parent my younger brother too.

I'm now not exactly sure where I am trying to go with this. Once again thoughts from others would be welcome....

Click to expand...

You might be wondering if an awareness of feeling childish is related to unfulfilled emotional needs in childhood? I would think it's possible. Have you read the 'Big 5' yet?

The Strawman said:

I now find myself attempting to identify with this 'awakening' to my childishness. Fortunately I was reading Hesper's thread - seeking a new crystallisation - earlier (I think it's in the Swamp so I won't post the link) and someone warned about identifying with thoughts and emotions.

Just humour me. I'll get there :)

Click to expand...

Seems to me that on the path of this work in self-development, we will have many experiences, emotions and moods for varying lengths of time. The long-range strategy, though, is about fusing a unified "I". So, with that in mind it seems an important goal along the way will be finding an inner place of stability from which you can observe all that's going on in your mind and emotions, noting how changes of outlook and perspectives accompany emotional and mood shifts. That could go a long way toward gaining the objectivity you seek. Even when you find this place, you might not stay there long, but once you experience it, you know it's possible and it can be regained - especially with help from the network.

On another thread, you mentioned reading the Jacob Needleman - Lost Christianity thread. Have you also read and finished that book and have there been any benefits gained? Seems to me I experienced similar releases of emotion through gaining some realizations from that book and I was wondering if the same might apply to you. I would certainly recommend the book to anyone, although I'm not sure if 'timing' is right in your case or if you've already read it or whatever. Others might have more helpful views on this.

These are just my thoughts ATM and may be off-target due to being very tired from work, so FWIW.