Session 13 December 2014

Thanks for the new session.

I agree with others that there is a conspicuous lack of networking on the forum on the part of Bernard and Humberto. They bypass the forum for getting feedback, and fall into negative feedback loops that they then consider networking. Why are they forum members if their participation is so seldom?
 
Thank you for the session. I had raised my eyebrowns when i noticed Bernhards bias towards the 'Hitler was good guy' narrative in facebook. It seems that he rely on his own thinking instead of networking. I do appreciate and value their videos (question of contact and time of transition) because they got me interested of Truth and eventually led me to this forum. Still, it does look like there hasn't been balance between the energy gotten from the forum (in form of knowledge) and giving back in return. Instead they've seemed to use that energy to create a separate vehicle to get personal gratification and following. Not sure if this has been conscious though. It would be interesting to hear Bernhards and Humbertos thoughts on this session.
 
Konstantin said:
I dont really understand this sentence from the last session:

Paying close and careful attention to what's outside, and responding to it, is what you've almost never used

Is that means outside, in our environment, people near us, things that happened near us and respond to that people,things issues on the way that we think is the best or something else ?

English is not my native language so sometimes its a little difficult to grasp , to understand some expressions.
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I think what they mean here is "outside of oneself." In other words, not living in a bubble. With a bubble, there's not only a barrier between oneself and the rest of the world, but the reflective nature of the barrier means that we are only interacting with our own reflection when we live in a bubble.
 
Thank you for the session ! Very interesting as usual :)

That whole thing with Bernard and the way he describes it is really off-putting.
 
Q: (L) What they're talking about is the habitual dissociation. Paying close and careful attention to what's outside, and responding to it, is what you've almost never used.

A: You live your life from inside a bubble.

This was important for me to hear as well. Parallel, it was very kind of you and everyone at the Chateau to open up this topic. It very much got me to thinking and I appreciate the opportunity for growth at this time. I remember how I used to dissociate as a child. Things got bad often so I would hide under the covers on my bed or in a closet and wrap a blanket around me. When I was under that blanket I would leave just enough room for a sliver of light and air to get in and I would be all curled up angry and upset. Reminds me of the allegory of Plato's cave or that painting with Mary Magdalene in a stone grotto naked and shivering but huddling in there in the dark afraid to come out.

Parallel, because you brought up this issue with dissociation I was thinking about that particular childhood habit and how I probably metaphorically carry that blanket around with me today. Of course as an adult one can't walk around with a blanket but I have wrapped myself up in my thoughts, dissociated from the world because of petty tyrants or my own interior demons and sat in my own bubble stewing, getting angry and not being up for the bigger challenges that the world presents.

As a child I was pretty good at most things from the get go. The problem was, as most of us here have had to face, I had no support system. I would start off quickly and then fade when it got tough and fall into dissociation and dissociation is phenomenally easy and the rewards are immediate. Something that I would initially take joy in would quickly become the tyrant I made it into because I had to overcome certain obstacles that were not just about what was naturally given or easy. Take school, I did well because I had a phenomenal memory. Problem was I was very stubborn about applying myself or applying the knowledge and thus progressing. That speaks to being or lack of and making myself vulnerable and maybe not knowing something and having to deal with feelings of insecurity like everyone else. To me, to that child, that insecurity or people staring at me was like death and it's probably part of the equation that I had neurosurgery when I was young and people were always poking, prodding and looking at me like some sort of an experiment. Of course it wasn't death and I made all that out to be much more than it was. But I didn't like people looking at me, I felt like Frankenstein's monster with a bit of a misshaped head that's certainly improved now as I've been told I'm devastatingly handsome :lol:, while at the same time wanting to have friends and be a part of things. It was painful. I really did feel like a freak but now as I write this I find it kind of humorous and can laugh at myself for all the emotional build up I made myself suffer through. I was very good, and still am, at making mountains out of molehills.

Here's a bit of what has helped me with dissociation in terms of utilizing my surroundings or interests in a positive manner. I love to go to thrift stores and am convinced that DCM speaks very loudly to me there. Especially my favorite one in downtown Brooklyn. I feel safe and amongst my people there and I don't have to put on any airs but can relax and let my guard down and get into the swing of things. Because of being consistent about listening to POTS the higher emotional aspect of all that's happening around me opens up and I participate naturally, find my place easily, meet lots of new friends and acquaintances and I get to practice hospitality. Hospitality for me is very much liking making a family where you are at that moment, treasuring it and holding it close to your heart. I have my ladies there too and I have deep affection and respect for them. I call them "my ladies" but of course they are not. Some are like grand dames and carry the memory of the place and the neighborhood and others are natural comforting mothers and others are very business like. I cozy up to all of them and for a few moments I make a friend or get to be someone's son or learn about who's daughter is going off to college and how proud their mama is. It's very touching. After I scored a particularly sweet deal on an alto saxophone from the 1920's for twenty dollars one of the great ladies who is very elegant and refined and beautiful came over to me a few weeks later and wanted to know if I was practicing. I told her I learned my "C" scale and was reading music again. Again, I was touched and I felt like in heaven and for that moment I was her son and she was checking on me.

I know I'm playing various roles but this is a way I practice to not dissociate. I also know the young ladies who work the cash registers. I get to be a bit of a mentor to them or father type figure at times and they let me do that more and more. It's gracious on their part and they know it makes me feel valued and they in turn know I respect them and treat them like human beings and can see the beauty in each of them. I don't have children but the feeling it brings up is that I love them all and would want all of them to be my daughters.

I better recap as this is getting a bit lengthy. I've found that the essence of family can be created anywhere when I'm not dissociating and it may only last a few minutes or a few weeks and then everyone moves on but while it exists it's glorious. That POTs or the Prayer of the Soul works to open one up to higher emotions and apply those emotions in real life making true spontaneous emotions much more rewarding and nourishing than dissociation. I don't know exactly but probably this helps to expand the emotional aspect of one's vessel so that one can receive more in those areas. Great for music and the arts I would guess or even simply relating to other human beings in a more musical way. I also don't plan ahead or think I'm going to buy this or that but trust that DCM will speak to me and surprise me as it knows what I need at that moment like a telescope or a saxophone for some ridiculously cheap price. Rarely am I disappointed and DCM helped me to turn my natural refined taste :P into a short lived but somewhat profitable home goods business selling unique crystal pieces, brass objects and silver trays to yuppies in gentrified parts of Brooklyn. This is my green language or cabala or maybe something to do with Rupert Sheldrake's morphic fields and it is heartwarming and tender and practical. I know the C's say learning is fun but in a thrift store being is fun too. And easy.

My best to you Parallel and thanks for instigating this line of emotion, being and reasoning in me. Take care friend.
 
pegasus said:
I know I'm playing various roles but this is a way I practice to not dissociate.
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Actually, this does seem a little like dissociation. While you are being considerate to these people, and playing a role a little, it also seems like you are creating a bit of a fantasy world to get lost in for a little while to make you feel better. I'm not sure what you mean when you say the DCM speaks to you when you're there either.
 
pegasus said:
Q: (L) What they're talking about is the habitual dissociation. Paying close and careful attention to what's outside, and responding to it, is what you've almost never used.

A: You live your life from inside a bubble.

This was important for me to hear as well. Parallel, it was very kind of you and everyone at the Chateau to open up this topic. It very much got me to thinking and I appreciate the opportunity for growth at this time. I remember how I used to dissociate as a child. Things got bad often so I would hide under the covers on my bed or in a closet and wrap a blanket around me. When I was under that blanket I would leave just enough room for a sliver of light and air to get in and I would be all curled up angry and upset. Reminds me of the allegory of Plato's cave or that painting with Mary Magdalene in a stone grotto naked and shivering but huddling in there in the dark afraid to come out.

Parallel, because you brought up this issue with dissociation I was thinking about that particular childhood habit and how I probably metaphorically carry that blanket around with me today. Of course as an adult one can't walk around with a blanket but I have wrapped myself up in my thoughts, dissociated from the world because of petty tyrants or my own interior demons and sat in my own bubble stewing, getting angry and not being up for the bigger challenges that the world presents.

As a child I was pretty good at most things from the get go. The problem was, as most of us here have had to face, I had no support system. I would start off quickly and then fade when it got tough and fall into dissociation and dissociation is phenomenally easy and the rewards are immediate. Something that I would initially take joy in would quickly become the tyrant I made it into because I had to overcome certain obstacles that were not just about what was naturally given or easy. Take school, I did well because I had a phenomenal memory. Problem was I was very stubborn about applying myself or applying the knowledge and thus progressing. That speaks to being or lack of and making myself vulnerable and maybe not knowing something and having to deal with feelings of insecurity like everyone else. To me, to that child, that insecurity or people staring at me was like death and it's probably part of the equation that I had neurosurgery when I was young and people were always poking, prodding and looking at me like some sort of an experiment. Of course it wasn't death and I made all that out to be much more than it was. But I didn't like people looking at me, I felt like Frankenstein's monster with a bit of a misshaped head that's certainly improved now as I've been told I'm devastatingly handsome :lol:, while at the same time wanting to have friends and be a part of things. It was painful. I really did feel like a freak but now as I write this I find it kind of humorous and can laugh at myself for all the emotional build up I made myself suffer through. I was very good, and still am, at making mountains out of molehills.

Here's a bit of what has helped me with dissociation in terms of utilizing my surroundings or interests in a positive manner. I love to go to thrift stores and am convinced that DCM speaks very loudly to me there. Especially my favorite one in downtown Brooklyn. I feel safe and amongst my people there and I don't have to put on any airs but can relax and let my guard down and get into the swing of things. Because of being consistent about listening to POTS the higher emotional aspect of all that's happening around me opens up and I participate naturally, find my place easily, meet lots of new friends and acquaintances and I get to practice hospitality. Hospitality for me is very much liking making a family where you are at that moment, treasuring it and holding it close to your heart. I have my ladies there too and I have deep affection and respect for them. I call them "my ladies" but of course they are not. Some are like grand dames and carry the memory of the place and the neighborhood and others are natural comforting mothers and others are very business like. I cozy up to all of them and for a few moments I make a friend or get to be someone's son or learn about who's daughter is going off to college and how proud their mama is. It's very touching. After I scored a particularly sweet deal on an alto saxophone from the 1920's for twenty dollars one of the great ladies who is very elegant and refined and beautiful came over to me a few weeks later and wanted to know if I was practicing. I told her I learned my "C" scale and was reading music again. Again, I was touched and I felt like in heaven and for that moment I was her son and she was checking on me.

I know I'm playing various roles but this is a way I practice to not dissociate. I also know the young ladies who work the cash registers. I get to be a bit of a mentor to them or father type figure at times and they let me do that more and more. It's gracious on their part and they know it makes me feel valued and they in turn know I respect them and treat them like human beings and can see the beauty in each of them. I don't have children but the feeling it brings up is that I love them all and would want all of them to be my daughters.

I better recap as this is getting a bit lengthy. I've found that the essence of family can be created anywhere when I'm not dissociating and it may only last a few minutes or a few weeks and then everyone moves on but while it exists it's glorious. That POTs or the Prayer of the Soul works to open one up to higher emotions and apply those emotions in real life making true spontaneous emotions much more rewarding and nourishing than dissociation. I don't know exactly but probably this helps to expand the emotional aspect of one's vessel so that one can receive more in those areas. Great for music and the arts I would guess or even simply relating to other human beings in a more musical way. I also don't plan ahead or think I'm going to buy this or that but trust that DCM will speak to me and surprise me as it knows what I need at that moment like a telescope or a saxophone for some ridiculously cheap price. Rarely am I disappointed and DCM helped me to turn my natural refined taste :P into a short lived but somewhat profitable home goods business selling unique crystal pieces, brass objects and silver trays to yuppies in gentrified parts of Brooklyn. This is my green language or cabala or maybe something to do with Rupert Sheldrake's morphic fields and it is heartwarming and tender and practical. I know the C's say learning is fun but in a thrift store being is fun too. And easy.


My best to you Parallel and thanks for instigating this line of emotion, being and reasoning in me. Take care friend.
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Dangit, Pegasus that is a beautiful well written (IMHO) example of connecting to the outside world. I think I may have done similar things myself but never thought about the way you have or spoken about it so eloquently.

Thanks :)
 
Wow, thanks to all for the thought provoking session!

The ideas that this sessions are stirring in me are ones that I have recently been pondering. I have been trying to balance or reconcile the concepts of Gurdjieff such as "The terror of the situation" and the C's concept that "Learning is fun" for instance.

I have for many years had a mindset to walk "circumspectly" (maybe due to type B bible influences). If there is anything to astrology I am a Cancer and have a hard shell or "bubble" on the outside with a soft protected interior.

With Gurdjieff's concepts of "external consideration" and "strategic enclosure" added to my bag of daily tools to cope with "reality, I suppose I have a lot of dissociating going on in my brain tracks trying to balance the two concepts.

Then there is the idea of Super-effort that was mentioned:

"(L) Well, if you don't ask it, I'll think of one.

(Michael) How can I process or work with the emotions that I feel are underneath, but which sort of get stored under a certain layer in daily life, and so never get processed?

(L) Never get expressed or processed? Because they're not being expressed, or they have never been expressed in any way? How can you deal with the emotions that block you, or something like that?

A: Keep in mind that you have dealt with things the same way for so long that there are very deep tracks in the brain. At the same time, there are circuits that have been little or never used. This must change!!! Super efforts are needed or you will deteriorate rapidly!"
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The idea of "Super efforts" kind of jumped out at me as possibly being related to what Mouravieff recalled in ISOTM where Gurdjieff mentioned Super-efforts:
I return to St. Petersburg, in the summer of 1916.
Soon after our group, or "preparatory group," had been formed, G. spoke to us about efforts in connection with the tasks he set before us.
"You must understand," he said, "that ordinary efforts do not count. Only superefforts count. And so it is always and in everything. Those who do not wish to make super-efforts had better give up everything and take care of their health."
"Can not super-efforts be dangerous?" asked one of the audience who was usually particularly careful about his health.
"Of course they can," said G., "but it is better to die making efforts to awaken than to live in sleep. That's one thing. For another thing it is not so easy to die from efforts. We have much more strength than we think. But we never make use of it. You must understand one feature of the organization of the human machine. I return to St. Petersburg, in the summer of 1916.
Soon after our group, or "preparatory group," had been formed, G. spoke to us about efforts in connection with the tasks he set before us.
"You must understand," he said, "that ordinary efforts do not count. Only superefforts count. And so it is always and in everything. Those who do not wish to make super-efforts had better give up everything and take care of their health."
"Can not super-efforts be dangerous?" asked one of the audience who was usually particularly careful about his health.
"Of course they can," said G., "but it is better to die making efforts to awaken than to live in sleep. That's one thing. For another thing it is not so easy to die from efforts. We have much more strength than we think. But we never make use of it. You must understand one feature of the organization of the human machine.
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The C's seem to really be alerting us to the "brain tracks" problem:

A: Keep in mind that you have dealt with things the same way for so long that there are very deep tracks in the brain. At the same time, there are circuits that have been little or never used. This must change!!! Super efforts are needed or you will deteriorate rapidly!"
Click to expand...


Here there seems to be a similarity in what the C's are saying and Gurdjieff. It is some of the other areas such as "The terror of the situation" vs "Learning is fun" that I guess I need Super-effort to balance in my own life and brain. This certainly has my brain going anyway. This will take Super-effort to figure out how to burst my own "bubble" so I can see the outside world as it is and how should I relate to it.

I need to check out some of the other good references others have posted and see what I can learn. I hope I have fun at the same time.

Thanks to all. :)
 
Many thanks for this very informative session. For me is quite a lot to digest. I also have read some Bernhardt articles and watch his, to me, well made videos. I was always thinking after reading his articles, how much this guy know and I remember me thinking : " O jeez, I am 100 years behind this guy understanding." Not that this matter something, but you know, sometimes I just can't help seeing myself in that way...To compare.
Anyway, now after Laura and C's point of view and after reading the posts of wiser and older members of this forum, I can see more clearly, how fast we can fool ourselves and convincing ourself what we are and where we are going. It seems that learning about our programming really is a never ending process...

But the most shocking thing to me in all this Bernhardt " love and bite" scenario was actually, when he that night have sex with another human being in very vulnerable position. I couldn't believe it, what I read! And I was aware of this even before the C's explanation, that in this particular case, HE IS the predator. When I first read Bernhardt explanation about HIS action ( having sex when another human being that is still confused, scared and in some kind of shock, and probably she was still "not with her senses" after the nightmare - no consideration about that at all! ), it just didn't feel right and for the first time I sensed a disgusted feeling in my belly about this guy. Of course my own programming immediately push this away and begin to rationalize. Now I understand that this happend because I already made the guy wiser and more compassionate in my head, that he really is. So my opinion about the guy prevent me to see the real picture, the truth. And we know what to think about the opinions...

I blinded myself with false thoughts based on the data that I have about Gunther and of course my interpretation of the data was obviously wrong. And I can't agree more with the C's statement, that he does no original work of his own, but rather attempts to ride on the coat tails of others. That truth strikes me very hard, because I notice that before, but just didn't pay any attention to my feelings and maybe even more important, I didn't give more thought to that. Red flag for me for my lack of paying attention to details. All my life I have made fast conclusions with rear exceptions to take one step backwards and think the situation through. Definitely something to regularly remind myself...

Another words that strikes me down like the lightning was Laura's words : "When you dissociate, it becomes habitual." Oh, man! That's me almost all my life! Before I have this information I was just thinking : "This is who I am." "I am like that." " The people just speak about boring home or job problems, so better for me, that I don't involve in that. It just drain my energy." " Alone at home I can study more important things about life or things that interest me."and this sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I still believe that some "alone time" is necessary and important but maybe not in the way that I fooled myself to think.


And finally the C's words :"You live your life from inside a bubble." Aargh! The lightning strikes again! Can I survive all this truth that I can recognize about my life and my mechanical behaviour? :umm: I really hope so... ;)


I slowly, slowly begin to understand the importance of networking (hope not only with my brain but also with my being), so I promise to myself and for all of you goodhearted and intelligent people of the forum - "Lurker no more!"

I'll be back! :lol:
 
Heimdallr and others, one quick thing before I go to bed. I was working on a response and after several paragraphs it became obvious to me that I should be applying as much work getting to know people here on the forum as I would say at the thrift store. A bit of sadness and embarrassment came up but those are genuine and good feelings that accompany certain realizations. I will explore what I said a bit more though and we'll see if there is anything of worth or use for others. Thanks for pressing me. Helps me to grow.
 
l apprenti de forgeron said:
Thanks for sharing this new session! :cool2:
Persej said:
(parallel) How can I process or work with the emotions that I feel are underneath, but which sort of get stored under a certain layer in daily life, and so never get processed?

(L) Never get expressed or processed? Because they're not being expressed, or they have never been expressed in any way? How can you deal with the emotions that block you, or something like that?

A: Keep in mind that you have dealt with things the same way for so long that there are very deep tracks in the brain. At the same time, there are circuits that have been little or never used. This must change!!! Super efforts are needed or you will deteriorate rapidly!

[...]

A: Let him think, work, network, and see later.
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I'll wait for some more info, but that sounds very much like my problem. :/
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Yes, mine too.
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I think this applies to just about everybody here,myself included.The hardest part of participation (as many others have noted) is just not knowing what to say.A few weeks back I got the feeling that I must be 100% committed to The Work.By all means,handle your daily affairs to the best of your ability,but your commitment must be unwavering and steadfast to make any serious progress,especially at this time.I (like many others here) have a tendency to isolate myself,but I cannot have 1 foot in both worlds,otherwise I just have 1 foot in the grave.FWIW. :)
 
pegasus said:
Heimdallr and others, one quick thing before I go to bed. I was working on a response and after several paragraphs it became obvious to me that I should be applying as much work getting to know people here on the forum as I would say at the thrift store. A bit of sadness and embarrassment came up but those are genuine and good feelings that accompany certain realizations. I will explore what I said a bit more though and we'll see if there is anything of worth or use for others. Thanks for pressing me. Helps me to grow.
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pegasus,

Heimdallr makes some good points I think. Similar thoughts occurred to me about the role playing. I think we all do role playing due to our little "i"s trying to consolidate into our unified "I". I don't have quite as much of a problem thinking that DCM might make certain impressions on us in our daily in our daily lives if we try to listen. I did like the well thought out way that your post was written. Maybe I enjoyed the imagery aspect that made me kind of feel like I was there in the thrift store with you. Or maybe it's because I go to a Goodwill Store to browse around once in a while myself and get the urge to buy something I wasn't even looking for. Maybe too I was drifting into the "fantasy" with you as Heimdallr mentioned. Maybe it is a two edged sword, you are good at painting pictures with words but the content has to be more based on the reality of the situation?

I am learning here too and I think it is difficult to see exactly how we come across to each other sometimes. I enjoyed both your post and Heimdallr's remarks. :)
 
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