AUTOIMMUNE DISEASES CAUSED BY AN INFECTION?

Gaby said:

Nienna said:

I did, also, use Arnica (1 bottle) and noticed quite a bit of detox symptoms. Whether this was from the Candida, or some other pesky critter, I do not know. Maybe Gaby has more insight on this.

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That is interesting, here are some possible clues:

In vitro antimicrobial activity of propolis and Arnica montana against oral pathogens
_http://www.aobjournal.com/article/S0003-9969%2899%2900117-X/abstract

Arnica and propolis have been used for thousands of years in folk medicine for several purposes. They possess several biological activities such as anti-inflammatory, antifungal, antiviral and tissue regenerative, among others. Although the antibacterial activity of propolis has already been demonstrated, very few studies have been done on bacteria of clinical relevance in dentistry. Also, the antimicrobial activity of Arnica has not been extensively investigated. Therefore the aim here was to evaluate in vitro the antimicrobial activity, inhibition of adherence of mutans streptococci and inhibition of formation of water-insoluble glucan by Arnica and propolis extracts. Arnica montana (10%, w/v) and propolis (10%, w/v) extracts from Minas Gerais State were compared with controls. Fifteen microorganisms were used as follows: Candida albicans — NTCC 3736, F72; Staphylococcus aureus — ATCC 25923; Enterococcus faecalis — ATCC 29212; Streptococcus sobrinus 6715; Strep. sanguis — ATCC 10556; Strep. cricetus — HS-6; Strep. mutans — Ingbritt 1600; Strep. mutans — OMZ 175; Actinomyces naeslundii — ATCC 12104, W 1053; Act. viscosus OMZ 105; Porphyromonas gingivalis; Porph. endodontalis and Prevotella denticola (the last three were clinical isolates). Antimicrobial activity was determined by the agar diffusion method and the zones of growth inhibition were measured. To assess cell adherence to a glass surface, the organisms were grown for 18 h at 37°C in test-tubes at a 30° angle. To assay water-insoluble glucan formation, a mixture of crude glucosyltransferase and 0.125 M sucrose was incubated for 18 h at 37°C in test-tubes at a 30° angle. Arnica and propolis extracts (20 μl) were added to these tubes to evaluate the % of inhibition of cell adherence and water-insoluble glucan formation. The propolis extract significantly inhibited all the microorganisms tested (p<0.05), showing the largest inhibitory zone for Actinomyces spp. The Arnica extract did not demonstrate significant antimicrobial activity. Cell adherence and water-insoluble glucan formation were almost completely inhibited by the propolis extract at a final concentration of 400 μg/ml and 500 μg/ml, respectively. The Arnica extract showed slight inhibition of the adherence of the growing cells (19% for Strep. mutans and 15% for Strep. sobrinus) and of water-insoluble glucan formation (29%) at these same concentrations. Thus, the propolis extract showed in vitro antibacterial activity, inhibition of cell adherence and inhibition of water-insoluble glucan formation, while the Arnica extract was only slightly active in those three conditions.

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Maybe it was a combination of things that potentiated the effect of the arnica.

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Regarding Propolis i have very interesting experience. Maybe its not suitable for this topic, and i'll please mods to remove it if its not ok.

Some 15 years ago my brother went fishing and he was attacked by giant wild hornets.He run as fast as he could and he and his friend somehow managed to hide in the car. They drove to home fastest they can. They were both swollen and in big pain since they were attacking them in their head and neck while they were running to the car.
In the next few days my brothers hair start to fall out in patches. He was diagnosed with alopecia areata. He looked very scary. We went to every possible hospitals and all of them give him a tons of medicine but nothing really worked. Until one day we decided to give him propolis. When he finished his propolis pills for about a month the hair started to grow and in a few weeks he was cured.
I dont know if it was from a stress, or from an inflammation or toxicity of the hornets venom or combination of all that, or some infection , but i know that propolis worked like a charm for his condition.

Propolis have some antiviral, antibacterial and antifungal properties.

_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19472427
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10363838


Added:

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alopecia_areata

Causes
Alopecia areata is thought to be a systemic autoimmune disorder in which the body attacks its own anagen hair follicles and suppresses or stops hair growth.[2] For example, T cell lymphocytes cluster around affected follicles, causing inflammation and subsequent hair loss. A few cases of babies being born with congenital alopecia areata have been reported, but these are not cases of autoimmune disease, because infants are born without fully developed immune systems.[citation needed]

Alopecia areata is not contagious.[2] It occurs more frequently in people who have affected family members, suggesting heredity may be a factor.[2] Strong evidence of genetic association with increased risk for alopecia areata was found by studying families with two or more affected members. This study identified at least four regions in the genome that are likely to contain these genes.[12] In addition, it is slightly more likely to occur in people who have relatives with autoimmune diseases.

Endogenous retinoids metabolic defect is a key part of the pathogenesis of the alopecia areata.[13]

In 2010, a genome-wide association study was completed that identified 129 single nucleotide polymorphisms that were associated with alopecia areata. The genes that were identified include those involved in controlling the activation and proliferation of regulatory T cells, cytotoxic T lymphocyte-associated antigen 4, interleukin-2, interleukin-2 receptor A, and Eos (also known as Ikaros family zinc finger 4), as well as the human leukocyte antigen. The study also identified two genes, PRDX5 and STX17, that are expressed in the hair follicle.[

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Gaby said:

Nienna said:

I did, also, use Arnica (1 bottle) and noticed quite a bit of detox symptoms. Whether this was from the Candida, or some other pesky critter, I do not know. Maybe Gaby has more insight on this.

Click to expand...

That is interesting, here are some possible clues:

In vitro antimicrobial activity of propolis and Arnica montana against oral pathogens
_http://www.aobjournal.com/article/S0003-9969%2899%2900117-X/abstract

Arnica and propolis have been used for thousands of years in folk medicine for several purposes. They possess several biological activities such as anti-inflammatory, antifungal, antiviral and tissue regenerative, among others. Although the antibacterial activity of propolis has already been demonstrated, very few studies have been done on bacteria of clinical relevance in dentistry. Also, the antimicrobial activity of Arnica has not been extensively investigated. Therefore the aim here was to evaluate in vitro the antimicrobial activity, inhibition of adherence of mutans streptococci and inhibition of formation of water-insoluble glucan by Arnica and propolis extracts. Arnica montana (10%, w/v) and propolis (10%, w/v) extracts from Minas Gerais State were compared with controls. Fifteen microorganisms were used as follows: Candida albicans — NTCC 3736, F72; Staphylococcus aureus — ATCC 25923; Enterococcus faecalis — ATCC 29212; Streptococcus sobrinus 6715; Strep. sanguis — ATCC 10556; Strep. cricetus — HS-6; Strep. mutans — Ingbritt 1600; Strep. mutans — OMZ 175; Actinomyces naeslundii — ATCC 12104, W 1053; Act. viscosus OMZ 105; Porphyromonas gingivalis; Porph. endodontalis and Prevotella denticola (the last three were clinical isolates). Antimicrobial activity was determined by the agar diffusion method and the zones of growth inhibition were measured. To assess cell adherence to a glass surface, the organisms were grown for 18 h at 37°C in test-tubes at a 30° angle. To assay water-insoluble glucan formation, a mixture of crude glucosyltransferase and 0.125 M sucrose was incubated for 18 h at 37°C in test-tubes at a 30° angle. Arnica and propolis extracts (20 μl) were added to these tubes to evaluate the % of inhibition of cell adherence and water-insoluble glucan formation. The propolis extract significantly inhibited all the microorganisms tested (p<0.05), showing the largest inhibitory zone for Actinomyces spp. The Arnica extract did not demonstrate significant antimicrobial activity. Cell adherence and water-insoluble glucan formation were almost completely inhibited by the propolis extract at a final concentration of 400 μg/ml and 500 μg/ml, respectively. The Arnica extract showed slight inhibition of the adherence of the growing cells (19% for Strep. mutans and 15% for Strep. sobrinus) and of water-insoluble glucan formation (29%) at these same concentrations. Thus, the propolis extract showed in vitro antibacterial activity, inhibition of cell adherence and inhibition of water-insoluble glucan formation, while the Arnica extract was only slightly active in those three conditions.

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Maybe it was a combination of things that potentiated the effect of the arnica.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is most likely the case. I was using quite a few different things at the time.

I came across a UK brand supplying camel milk and, most likely, distribute the products to the European mainland. In case is still considered as a good alternative.

Here is the link: http://desertfarms.co.uk/

This is an update from the microbiome research by Emily Deans, which seems to suggest that sometimes "wiping out" the gut flora and then repopulating the gut with good bacteria might be a good solution for those with debilitating diseases:

The cutting edge of gut health and disease
https://www.sott.net/article/328633-The-cutting-edge-of-gut-health-and-disease

[...] In both human and rodent studies, increasing obesity, insulin resistance, and fasting glucose levels correlate linearly with decreasing distance between gut bacteria and the cells lining the intestine. This invasion of bacteria on the front lines of the gut is called "bacterial encroachment," reminding us that our relationship with our microbiota is best characterized as "frenemies." Andrew Gewirtz leads a team at Penn that published the sobering paper in Nature last year, showing how modest amounts of emulsifying agents nearly universally found in processed food damaged the microbiome and intestinal cells, causing colitis in mice. He made the sensible recommendation to avoid processed food in favor of eating fresh, whole foods.

He's also been able to reverse some damaging effects of more processed, purified diets in mice by adding the fermentable fiber inulin to their chow. The inulin feeds the microbiota and makes them more diverse and robust. However, along the lines of the "frenemies" designation, immune compromised mice got sick when fed inulin, meaning we have to be careful about making recommendations for fiber blooming of our gut microbes. It may make sense to use multiple step treatments, eliminating pathogens with temporary low fermentable fiber diets and possibly antibiotics, then adding in more friendly probiotics, feeding them with fiber. These complex protocols have yet to be studied in a systematic way in humans and remain experimental.

{The research in this thread is a case in point}

On the second day of the symposium, several scientists, including one of my favorites, psychiatrist Ted Dinan from University of College Cork, spoke about the evolving work on interactions between the gut and the brain. He's studied small but significant differences in cognition and stress tolerance in mice born via c-section vs. vaginally, and, crucially, found some similar differences in young adult humans. He showed data from a study taking fecal transplants from depressed individuals into rats, leading to dramatic changes in behavior in these rats when they became more anxious and anhedonic. They also had elevated levels of inflammation compared to rats who got fecal transplants from non-depressed, healthy humans.

All the speakers linking gut and brain health mentioned how microbiota affect the metabolism of serotonin, a key behavioral neurotransmitter, and Elaine Hsiao, PhD of UCLA showed some of her work illuminating this complex process down to the molecular level. In addition, many microbes make neurotransmitters in the gut, which can send signals to the brain via the vagus nerve. In previous studies, certain strains of probiotics have been shown to decrease anxiety in rats, and this effect was lost by cutting the vagus nerve. Dinan has also shown improved cognition in humans using the probiotic b. longum.

He made a key point that these measured microbial effects in humans are modest but significant. If a new class of treatments for depression or anxiety is made from probiotics, they will likely be most useful for mild depression or anxiety. Most folks who experience depressive disorders have more mild cases, and many people for various reasons don't have access to the psychotherapy that is first line for milder depression. "Psychobiotics" could be an inexpensive and low risk way to bridge the treatment gap.

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For more information on how to repopulate the gut, see:

Problems with your eyes, sign of gut inflammation?
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,42618.0.html

Descriptions and links to experiences with probiotic enemas are discussed there.

Thank You for this information. This is the basic protocol my new Dr.s have put me on & I have noticed a difference in the healing of my wounds. The Infectious Disease Dr. & Nurse on the team suggested the same about eating fresh and whole foods which I was doing before. The difference was the use of IV antibiotics for a week and then the use of foods with pro biotics to encourage the good bacteria. Still in progress, but the info resonated with me immediately. Thanks again, Gaby

Hi all,
I wanted to share my experience with this protocol so far.

I decided to start it on June after what seemed to be an intestinal infection (they didn't know the cause and suggested Crohn's disease as a possible diagnostic) and I was given Doxycycline for 15 days after the initial treatment, so I thought it would be a good moment to just continue with the Doxy until I could get all the other drugs and supplements and keep on.

When on doxycycline, during the first few days I wrote down these symptoms:

Brain fog
Fatigue
Joint ache - mostly knees and ankles, a little bit in fingers and toes
Cold - Feverish state
Acid stomach
General malaise
Headache - Pressure on the front of head, sinus and adenoids
Sleepy - heavy eyes
Dizziness
Burning skin on face
Difficult to concentrate - ADD symptoms

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This symptoms didn't last very long but I started Metro/allopurinol a bit late because the timing was better for me, and also because my intestines were still too sensitive. So I did the Metro/Allopurinol week one month after I started with doxy/hydroxichloroquine, instead of doing it on the second week. During that week what I wrote down was:

acid stomach, joint pain (diffused, coming and going), dry cough, unable to focus, brain fog, heavy fatigue, feverish feeling, neck and shoulder pain, nausea (most in the afternoon and evening, after second dose), very mild headache, diarrhea in the evening.

Mostly digestive discomfort. Body pain is present but it comes and goes.

Very well in the morning after, with energy and in good mood, with only some shoulder pain and joint pain, fatigue and difficult attention. Brain fog. Generally worse in the afternoon.

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Once the Allopurinol week finished, I was relieved!!! But I my discomfort wasn't soooo strong so I thought that taking the hydrocortisone wasn't necessary… I'll keep it for an emergency or maybe low-dose adrenal support, as Gaby recommended.

After that, I did my metro cycles and every time I felt mostly brain fog and body pain, especially the joints (fingers and knees). In the last cycle I didn't feel this anymore, but I think I'll do another cycle later on just to make sure I kill everything that there is to kill.

I had a few intestinal "attacks" while on the protocol, similar to the ones that got me to the hospital, but less intense and with no fever, just a lot of pain on the low right side and also on the hips and lower back. (I read that this is very common in Inflammatory Bowel Disease). This pain got milder and milder and now it's been a while since I didn't have any of these episodes. They key factor here seemed to be an homeopathy remedy I started taking after one episode. The pain was gone after the second dose!!! So I guess that remedy is really helping.

As supplements I'm taking all the recommended supplements including a strong probiotic every night.

I started taking Lugol’s 5% two days a week now, and I can tell it's really helping. I was feeling very well in general already, yet, I was also tired easily, like lacking energy. The iodine does seem to help with that because I'm feeling with a lot more energy since I started.

Overall, it was difficult at the beginning, but I can say it's worth it. No more pain in the intestines and overall with a feeling that is hard to describe, but it would be something as “lighter” in weigh, I suppose. There's something different now inside, as having lost something that made me heavier, so to say.

Now, this week I've tried my first probiotic enema and I can't say that it's been so positive for me as others are describing. The first reaction seemed to be an emotional "drop down", as a mild depression. Then, lack of energy during the whole week. It also seems that it triggered an important detox process because I started sweating a lot and with a odd smell, not normal to me. And also, I'm a bit afraid because I felt some very mild intestinal pain immediately afterwards and the discomfort continued several days afterwards.

I caught a flu last week, which is a strong flu that's running around, so it can also be that this "drop down" was due to that flu, since I'm still recovering. Yet, some others reported having emotional reactions to the probiotic enemas, as if the flora is so bad that a sudden change in the environment triggers some emotional responses. Maybe it changes the production of some neurotransmitters and that's what triggers the emotional reaction. Is that possible?

Anyway, I know how important it is to replenish my gut flora while doing this protocol, so I will try the probiotic enemas again, yet, I'll go very slowly with it, probably reduce the amount of living organisms for the time being.

I think that's all for now, I'm sorry if it was too long.

And I hope it can be of help to others who wish to follow this protocol.

Yas said:

Maybe it changes the production of some neurotransmitters and that's what triggers the emotional reaction. Is that possible?

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Or maybe there is a specific probiotic strain which is not friendly for your gut?

I read about a negative reaction to a probiotic enema that a person with Crohn's disease had. Perhaps for future experimentation, it might be worth trying only one particular strain that is known to be helpful in humans, i.e. lactobacillus rhamnosus gg. or lactobacillus reuteri?

New Research: Probiotic Found in Breast Milk Benefits Nerves in Gut, Calms Digestive Disorders
https://www.sott.net/article/211036-New-Research-Probiotic-Found-in-Breast-Milk-Benefits-Nerves-in-Gut-Calms-Digestive-Disorders

When I tried my probiotic enema, I did it only with l. rhamnosus gg, 4 envelopes. The content of just one envelop would be more than one capsule. But starting with the lowest dose would be the safe way to go.

I did a probiotic enema about a week ago:

I mainly used 4 caps of Mercola's Complete probiotic (plus 2 older caps of Excema Relief by Ethical Nutrients, which is not a very ethical company ... and which probably were not very active anymore).

I managed to keep the fluid (200ml) in overnight, after having massaged it as far up my abdomen as possible (about 30min in various positions).

I didn't feel any different the next day, but observed a marked improvement of some nagging (and so far resistent to everything) deep pain in my left paravertebral area, that I have had on and off for about 3 years now, and which largely prevented me from running, as it then would flare up again.

To my amazement, this pain is now practically gone. So my stipulation is, that this might have been some inflammatory process, maybe some arthritis/ arthrosis of the left hip joint radiating into my back. Of note is, that I had hip surgery on both sides when I was 10 y.o. due to dysplasia/ misalignment of the head of the hip bone with the socket.

This operation is not performed anymore today, as the results show no appreciable benefit, and also because hips today are routinely screened in babies and corrected by positioning them in a certain position to outgrow the condition. It did help me, as when a child I was barely able to walk longer than an hour, which I was able to do from then on. But it might not prevent premature arthrosis, because all this operation does is, it corrects the alignments of the feet, but not of the head of the hip bone in the socket.

So I am quite happy with the result and might repeat this procedure in the future, if needed.

Gaby said:

Yas said:

Maybe it changes the production of some neurotransmitters and that's what triggers the emotional reaction. Is that possible?

Click to expand...

Or maybe there is a specific probiotic strain which is not friendly for your gut?

I read about a negative reaction to a probiotic enema that a person with Crohn's disease had. Perhaps for future experimentation, it might be worth trying only one particular strain that is known to be helpful in humans, i.e. lactobacillus rhamnosus gg. or lactobacillus reuteri?

New Research: Probiotic Found in Breast Milk Benefits Nerves in Gut, Calms Digestive Disorders
https://www.sott.net/article/211036-New-Research-Probiotic-Found-in-Breast-Milk-Benefits-Nerves-in-Gut-Calms-Digestive-Disorders

When I tried my probiotic enema, I did it only with l. rhamnosus gg, 4 envelopes. The content of just one envelop would be more than one capsule. But starting with the lowest dose would be the safe way to go.

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Yes, that might be the way to go for me.

I've been reading that people with some gut diseases can react badly to probiotics and it's important to start with the lowest dose and build up from there. I read in the Autoimmune Paleo website that probiotics can stimulate the immune system and that can be problematic to people with autoimmune conditions, and Chris Kresser also says that there's a lot of going up a bit and then going back to a lower dose until the flora starts balancing itself and one doesn't react badly.

It seems that the reaction can be due to herxheimer or it can be, as you said, Gaby, a strain that isn't very friendly to my gut in particular. Chris Kresser says that lactobacillus types can be problematic for some, and that maybe on can try Soil Based Organisms first and see how it goes, but maybe he's just selling his product.

Everyone agrees that probiotics are super important and that a bad reaction doesn't mean that one should stop taking them. In fact, it might mean that a person needs them even more. Yet, some people must go slowly with them.

I will read more about the subject before I continue with another enema, but I will continue taking my probiotic pill every night.

Thanks

I am starting to seriously consider the autoimmune protocol because of a few issues. I think they are largely stress-related, but still, I feel like my body should be able to deal with the daily stresses of work etc. without reacting like it currently is.

My main problems are constant itchiness, a rash that is getting worse - on the backs of my knees, upper legs, shins, hips, torso. Also other skin issues such as perioral dermititis around the nose and blotchy spots on face around eyes. The rashes are different and seemingly random. Some of it is dry, bumpy skin, some of it is strange circular shapes around 1.5cm diameter, and some of it looks like insect bite marks. It gets worse if I drink alcohol or have sugar, or eat foods high in histamine. Whenever I sweat I get very itchy all over, and if I stay in a hot shower too long it also gets very itchy.

I have a feeling that it is some kind of virus, but I don't know - pictures of candida rashes, bacterial rashes, all tend to look the same. I could be wrong - I really don't know what it is and nobody out there will know for sure either - doctors just give steroid creams, alternative therapies usually do nothing at all.

Interestingly it looks very similar to a chronic rash that the person I live with has - hers also took a number of years/months to develop. 3 years ago we were in a short relationship so it is plausible that a latent infection could have been transferred either way.

Then there is the whole possible emotional component to health issues, but that would be better in another post.

So sticking to the nuts and bolts stuff here, does this sound like something that warrants the big commitment of the autoimmune protocol? Does anyone have suggestions on what could be causing it, or alternative therapies for it?

Carl said:

I could be wrong - I really don't know what it is and nobody out there will know for sure either - doctors just give steroid creams, alternative therapies usually do nothing at all.

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Have you seen a dermatologist? It is strange that no differential diagnosis is suggested.

How does your diet look like these days? Have you considered doing an IgG food panel test?

Gaby said:

Carl said:

I could be wrong - I really don't know what it is and nobody out there will know for sure either - doctors just give steroid creams, alternative therapies usually do nothing at all.

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Have you seen a dermatologist? It is strange that no differential diagnosis is suggested.

How does your diet look like these days? Have you considered doing an IgG food panel test?

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Since you say it gets worse with sugar, alcohol and histamine foods it would be worth it to go the diet route first and see if you get a significant improvement. Really tighten up your diet and see what happens. Also consider that there is something in your environment that could be causing skin issues; laundry detergent allergies, skin care products etc. or, god forbid, bedbugs or other pesky critters.

The food test may be a good idea Gaby, I never did it because it just did not seem to be reliably accurate from what I read. I've never been referred to a dermatologist but my housemate has - apparently they have no idea either, and just give steroid creams.

As for diet, I went back to keto. It has been good in that injuries from exercise don't last as long, my skin heals quicker, and I don't get brain fog from meals. But feels like it has made the rash worse somehow.

My plan is to basically do at least a month on the cleanest diet possible before trying any treatment options, I.E. no nuts, chocolate, coffee, tea, anything with alcohol or sugar even in small amounts, eggs. But as you say, maybe a food test would reveal I'm actually allergic to green beans and I'm barking up the wrong tree!

And thank god no it is not bed bugs. I had them real bad in a student house a few years back and it has left me with bug-checking paranoia.

Carl said:

The food test may be a good idea Gaby, I never did it because it just did not seem to be reliably accurate from what I read. I've never been referred to a dermatologist but my housemate has - apparently they have no idea either, and just give steroid creams.

As for diet, I went back to keto. It has been good in that injuries from exercise don't last as long, my skin heals quicker, and I don't get brain fog from meals. But feels like it has made the rash worse somehow.

My plan is to basically do at least a month on the cleanest diet possible before trying any treatment options, I.E. no nuts, chocolate, coffee, tea, anything with alcohol or sugar even in small amounts, eggs. But as you say, maybe a food test would reveal I'm actually allergic to green beans and I'm barking up the wrong tree!

And thank god no it is not bed bugs. I had them real bad in a student house a few years back and it has left me with bug-checking paranoia.

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The skin often tries to excrete toxins when the normal excretory pathways are compromised... such as the colon. Why don't you try coffee and probiotic enemas?

Laura said:

Carl said:

The food test may be a good idea Gaby, I never did it because it just did not seem to be reliably accurate from what I read. I've never been referred to a dermatologist but my housemate has - apparently they have no idea either, and just give steroid creams.

As for diet, I went back to keto. It has been good in that injuries from exercise don't last as long, my skin heals quicker, and I don't get brain fog from meals. But feels like it has made the rash worse somehow.

My plan is to basically do at least a month on the cleanest diet possible before trying any treatment options, I.E. no nuts, chocolate, coffee, tea, anything with alcohol or sugar even in small amounts, eggs. But as you say, maybe a food test would reveal I'm actually allergic to green beans and I'm barking up the wrong tree!

And thank god no it is not bed bugs. I had them real bad in a student house a few years back and it has left me with bug-checking paranoia.

Click to expand...

The skin often tries to excrete toxins when the normal excretory pathways are compromised... such as the colon. Why don't you try coffee and probiotic enemas?

Click to expand...

Yes, and if the rash got worse with the keto diet, it might also be an indication of a gut flora imbalance.

I think you have a good plan now!