Greece: debt, creditors, austerity measures, Syriza, Varoufakis, Troika

Jeremy F Kreuz said:
He doesn't want Greece to leave the EU. That's all Brussels needs to know. If Brussels is an abusive partner and despite this abuse he doesn't want to leave... Then what else can you say? Do you expect the partner to miraculously grow a soul? Pfffft...

maybe that is just strategy - leaving the EU might be a step too far for the moment for the Greeks, resulting in a yes vote, out of fear that a no would mean grexit. So to secure the no he reassures the fearful among the greeks.

Yeah, i think this is a strategy as well. The possibility of leaving the EU, or the very least dropping the Euro could be the next logical step, but that is still further down the road, and now they have to concentrate on the referendum, one step at a time i guess.

About the new drachma if they drop the Euro, hyper-inflation is a defintiely possibility; and you can bet that the Empire will try and ensure this happens. However like all inflationary environments; it depends largely on the perception of the new currency, and the solid reserves and backing the currency has in the eyes of global markets. If for example, we have the BRICS bank, or AIIB, making an announcement that they will underwrite the Greek drachma, and be a key purchaser of new drachma based bonds issued by the Greek govt - then we have a stabilising factor here, and hyperinflation can be avoided. Add that to the forward payments made by Russia/Gazprom on the gas pipelines through Greece, we have more stabilising factors for the new currency.

Thanks Regulattor for updates on Tsipras speech last night - indeed no mention of the FT article, and so called "proposal" to accept the terms by Tsipras. I guess the attacks from the MSM have begun....sigh !
 
Here's Tsipra's speech from last night (gone through google translate with a lot of human correction)

Greek women and men,
We are at a critical juncture concerning the future of this country.
Sunday's referendum is not about staying or not in the eurozone.
This is a given and no one can contest it. (staying in the Eurozone)
On Sunday we choose whether or not to accept the agreement or claim directly, and given the popular verdict, a more viable solution.
In any case I want to assure the Greek people that the firm intention of the government is to reach an agreement with its partners, in terms of sustainability and prospects.
Already after our decision on giving the referendum better proposals fell on our table of negotiations and the necessity of restructuring the debt, than those we had until Friday.
We did not let them fall on the ground. Immediately we offered our counterproposals asking again for a more viable solution
and for this reason convened yesterday the Eurogroup which will discuss again this afternoon.
If there is a positive outcome we will respond immediately. In any case, the Greek government remains on the table and will remain until the end. And it will be there Monday, immediately after the referendum with better terms for the Greek side. [Here's where he refers to the what the FT published (bolded above). Why didn't the mainstream media pick it up from his speech?]
Because always the popular verdict is much stronger than the will of a government.
And I want to reiterate that the democratic choice is at the core of European traditions.
In very important moments in European history, the people in referenda were making important decisions.
This happened in France and in many other countries with the referendum for the EE constitution. This happened in Ireland, where a referendum temporarily canceled the Treaty of Lisbon and led to renegotiation, where Ireland won better terms.
Unfortunately, in the case of Greece we are given other standards.
Personally I never expected the democratic Europe to not understand the need to give space and time to a people to choose sovereignly for his future.
The prevalence of extreme conservative circles led to the decision to bring the country's banks to suffocation. With the obvious intention to move the blackmail of the government to every citizen separately.
It really is unacceptable in a Europe of solidarity and mutual respect to have these images of shame.
To close the banks, just because the government decided to give a voice to the people.
And lead to inconvenience thousands of elderly people that the government, despite the financial crunch took care and ensured that their pension were in their accounts.
Faced with these people we owe an explanation.
To protect your own pensions we fight so many months.
To protect your right to a decent pension and not a mere tip.
The proposals that we were called to sign through blackmail were asking for a vast reduction of pensions.
And this is why we refused.
And that is why today they take their revenge on us.
To the Greek Government was given an ultimatum to implement exactly the same recipe and all outstanding issues of the memorandum which have not been applied.
And even without any provision for debt and finance.
Their ultimatum was not accepted.
The obvious way out was to reach out to the people because democracy has no deadlocks.
And that’s what we are doing.
I am well aware that in these times the sirens of destruction rage.
We are being blackmailed and invited to vote YES on all measures demanded by lenders and without any prospect for exit from the crisis.
They want you to say Yes to everything, like those bad days of parliament we have now behind us, Yes to all.
They want you to become like them.
Complicit in perpetuating the memoranda.
On the other hand, the NO is not simply a slogan.
NO is a decisive step for a better deal we aim to be signed immediately after the result of Sunday.
It is the clear choice of the people on how to live the next day.
NO does not mean rupture with Europe, but return to the Europe of values.
NO means: strong pressure for an economically viable agreement that solves the debt, it means No to indefinitely undermining our effort to redress the Greek economy and society.
No means a strong pressure for a deal that is socially fair, which will allocate the burden on those who have the money rather than the employees and the pensioners.
An agreement that will result to the return of the country again in the international financial markets and give an end to the supervisions and guardianships.
An agreement containing the reforms that will punish once and for all the corruption that fueled all these years the political system.
An agreement that at the same time deals with the humanitarian crisis, creating a comprehensive safety net for those who are currently marginalized precisely because these policies were applied all these years in our country.
Greek men and women,
I am fully aware of the difficulties.
I undertake personally that I will do everything in my hand that these difficulties are temporary.
Some insist to link the outcome of the referendum with the country staying in the euro.
They say, indeed, that I have a hidden plan that if OXI=No prevails, to pull the country out of the EU.
They are knowingly lying.
Those who say it are those who were lying before.
Those who say it offer a very poor service to the people and Europe.
Besides, you know, I was myself a year ago, presidential candidate of the European Commission in the European elections.
Before the Europeans even then I took the position that the austerity policies must stop, that the memorandums are not the way to end the crisis.
That the programs implemented in Greece were unsuccessful.
That Europe must stop acting undemocratic.
A few months later in January 2015, our people corroborated this estimate.
Unfortunately some in Europe still refuse to understand it, refuse to admit it.
Those who want a Europe stuck at authoritarianist logic, in a logic that fails to respect democracy, those who want Europe a superficial union with the IMF as the adhesive, they are not visionaries for Europe.
They are fearful politicians, unable to think as Europeans.
Next to them, the domestic political system, having led the country into bankruptcy, now plans to shed the burdens on us for trying to stop the march of destruction.
And, indeed, they are dreaming that they will be restored in leadership.
They talk about a coup. Democracy is not a coup.
Greek women and men,
I wholeheartedly thank you for your sobriety and composure which are revealed every hour of this difficult week.
I want to assure you that this situation will not continue for long.
It is temporary.
The salaries and pensions will not be lost.
The deposits of the citizens who chose not to evacuate their money abroad will not be lost on the altar of expediency and extortion.
I personally assume responsibility for the direct solution immediately after the democratic process of the referendum.
At the same time, I urge you to strengthen this negotiating effort, I invite you to say NO to the recipes of the memoranda that destroy Europe.
I invite you to respond positively to the prospect of a lasting solution.
To open a glorious page of democracy.
And a sure hope for a better deal.
It is our responsibility to our parents, to our children, to ourselves.
It is our duty towards history.
Thank you
 
luke wilson said:
The way I see it, Greece by staying in the Eurozone means they will have to endure a harsh repayment plan on all that debt. No way are they forgiving that debt. Also it means it cant align itself with Russia, china etc. No way it can do that if the EU doesn't approve! Didn't France just cancel on those Mistral ships to Russia despite the financial penalties?

Greece needs help is the bottom line. They aren't getting out of this by themselves.

The only place they can get help in my eyes is from aligning with BRICS countries. By staying in the eurozone, that wont be happening.

I could be wrong though.

There are many options for Greece, and the new government is pursuing most of them:

- The Committee of Truth is part of the Parliamentary body, and it is a group created to investigate how Greece entered into this economic situation, why, who were the people/institutions that led her here, with plans to take legal action when the findings are out. So far, their preliminary findings say that the Greek dept is an odious debt (illegal dept, serving interests other than the people of a country) and should not be paid by the Greeks. See here for more info and updates http://greekdebttruthcommission.org/wp/ Also, along similar lines, the Truth Committee has at hand a list of the journalists that the IMF paid to attend its seminars so that they can lie to the public and convince them that the austerity measures were good for them and to their benefit, though they all knew otherwise. The journalists on this list will be seeing the halls of justice for treason.

- There's the German Debt Committee, which is created to investigate the dept own to Greece by Germany from both WWI & WWII (an amount of money that probably will be as high as Greece's current debt, or at least close enough). When the Greek minister of foreign affairs was in Moscow last April, upon his return to Greece he thanked the Russian government for sending him all the info and archives they have for both World Wars to help in this specific investigation. There were rumors at the time also that Russia and Greece will ask together to be paid the dept Germany owns them from those times, in an international court of law. Remember also that the only reason Germany was able to improve economically and become the economic queen of Europe today, is because it's own national dept after WWII was cancelled. Many economists these days brouthis fact on the media and are asking why can't the same happen for Greece. Nobody from Brussels gave an answer. For more info read this article posted by the Guardian: Greece and Spain helped postwar Germany recover. Spot the difference

- Other than extending the hand towards Greece by offering it a position in the BRICS organization, there's also the deal already signed between Russia and Greece for the creation of the Turkish Stream. This will bring lots of money to Greece (Russia also offered to help financially until Greece can pay back) and open work positions for all those unemployed people.

- I've been reading the blogs and articles by many economists these days who claim that the improvement Greek economy CAN happen even with a Grexit (some actually claim, because of Grexit) and offer solutions and ts for the Greek government. Varoufakis has a lot of friends in the financial world too, and if you followed his speeches these last two days, he says they do have plans for the economic recovery if the people of Greece vote No to the proposals of the Troika on Sunday. They have many plans actually that they haven't been able to implement because signup to those austerity packages means that as a government you can't make any decisions for your nation without the institutions' approval.

So, I am waiting for the vote on Sunday. But as Heraclitus used to say, Everything is always in motion. There are always many options for those willing.
 
Thanks for the translation, Alana.

And I agree that there are many options for Greece. Sure exiting the Euro would be one good option, but no matter how you cut it, there are going to be very difficult situations to navigate. The debt being found to be odious/illegal/fraud is one of their best options to pursue; also the German reparations could have some potential (it would be very difficult to collect most probably, but they can just say we're even, so it cancels out what is owed by Greece).

The thing about leaving the Euro (and the EU) is that it has to be done very carefully. The Euro currency and the EU structure will unravel anyway, it's just a matter of time. But Greece leaving the Eurozone and issuing their own currency, while theoretically one of the best options, would increase the financial attacks on them before they've had a chance to stabilize their own currency and real economy. They can definitely issue their own currency without necessarily leading to hyperinflation, if done right. But for Greece, it's even trickier because so much damage has already been done to the real economy, and there's widespread unemployment and social distress. They would have to get the real economy back to a healthy footing and then as job creation and other economic improvements start, the chance of managing how much money to put into circulation CAN be done responsibly to avoid overprinting leading to inflation/hyperinflation.

With the help offered by BRICS (mostly Russia and China) things CAN improve in a relatively short time, but like Putin/Russia and Xi/China, things have to be handled VERY carefully, not only because of the psychos' reactions against their own economies and financial systems, but also not to make the global system collapse too fast and destructively before they've taken enough mitigating measures to weather the coming storm....
 
SeekinTruth said:
And I agree that there are many options for Greece.

(Caveat: I have not read every post on this thread. So my comments may overlap.)

There may be many options, but none are going to be easy. And it's got little to do with the moral rightness or just cause of their position. It's got everything to do with liquidity.

Truth is people have to eat, have water, fuel to cook, heat & cool with. To get to work. If liquidity shuts down, then literally nothing moves. Some barter is possible, but it's very hard to sustain a modern economy on that basis. Russia and others can help but it won't be enough.

The Greek leadership knows this, and hence they can't really just toss things into the air. The practical (and critical) aspects of Greek existence will dictate their final decisions.

But I could be wrong.

FWIW.
 
sitting said:
SeekinTruth said:
And I agree that there are many options for Greece.

(Caveat: I have not read every post on this thread. So my comments may overlap.)

There may be many options, but none are going to be easy. And it's got little to do with the moral rightness or just cause of their position. It's got everything to do with liquidity.

Truth is people have to eat, have water, fuel to cook, heat & cool with. To get to work. If liquidity shuts down, then literally nothing moves. Some barter is possible, but it's very hard to sustain a modern economy on that basis. Russia and others can help but it won't be enough.

The Greek leadership knows this, and hence they can't really just toss things into the air. The practical (and critical) aspects of Greek existence will dictate their final decisions.

But I could be wrong.

FWIW.

Yeah, I agree. Things can get very bad, very fast, if not handled very delicately. Heck things are already and have been for several year very bad....
 
Thanks Alana for posting the tranlsation to Tsipras speech, much appreciated.

Fully agree with yours, ST's and sitting comments concerning the situation - the future of Greece and the Greek people is certainly at an important juncture - and there are many dangers lurking especially with the Empire. However i think with Syriza and Tsipras, Greece is in the right hands, and will need to plan very carefully,delicately and navigate well through the coming situations to "escape" from the clutches of the Empire, while minimising the suffering of the Greek people, and rebuilding its real economy to sustainable levels.

Everything is indeed always in motion, and im waiting too for the outcome of Sunday...
 
More updates from RT on Greece:

​Greece's Varoufakis: Rather 'cut my arm off' than agree to current deal
http://rt.com/business/271285-greece-bailout-creditors-deal/

Enough austerity? Greece after 5 years of belt tightening
http://rt.com/business/271363-greece-austerity-tsipras-referendum/
 
Mr.Cyan said:
Thanks Alana for posting the tranlsation to Tsipras speech, much appreciated.

Fully agree with yours, ST's and sitting comments concerning the situation - the future of Greece and the Greek people is certainly at an important juncture - and there are many dangers lurking especially with the Empire. However i think with Syriza and Tsipras, Greece is in the right hands, and will need to plan very carefully,delicately and navigate well through the coming situations to "escape" from the clutches of the Empire, while minimising the suffering of the Greek people, and rebuilding its real economy to sustainable levels.

Everything is indeed always in motion, and im waiting too for the outcome of Sunday...
I really hope that Syriza be at the height of the times and do things well. The unfortunate thing about all this is that the Greeks are suffering a lot, and they don't need more demagogy; but act with knowledge, as shown Putin. What make me noise is: if the Greek government say that Brussels and the IMF are criminals (and they are), why not incarcerate local culprits of falsifying accounts, as Papandreu, etc? So far everything that the new government does seem to be very passive, forcing others to act. It may be a good strategy, but from distance that generates many questions. Or probably still they do not have enough power and must make decisions with great haste.
It's a very hard situation, but it can become tragic: if Syriza falls, the Nazis can take power (Golden Dawn). And Brussels may play with this.
It's a big unknown what will happen after the voting.
 
I do not know whether the misinformation or not, but apparently the latest research show that the Greeks could encircle YES.
Link:
https://translate.google.hr/translate?sl=hr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=hr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegram.hr%2Fpolitika-kriminal%2Fgrci-se-predomislili-nove-ankete-pokazuju-da-ce-vecina-u-nedjeljnom-referendumu-zaokruziti-da%2F&edit-text=
 
Folowing the FB posts and comments of friends from Greece, they are very uncertain, and it is very difficult to predict the result of referendum. Knowing how western propaganda works through young people and NGOs, and how many of us in Croatia were brainwashed, and still are with the false prospects of the western relativism of life, pumped through funds and fame, I see most of the younger people in Greece to be trapped in the net of EU funded lies, having difficulties to see a prospect by saying NO. I hope that a bit older generation of our parents, will come out to save human dignity and freedom for their hypnotized and mislead kids. Don't know, if Tsipras lost faith in Greek people on sunday, if they give up the opportunity to stand up for their human rights, it will actualy be a success of the propaganda machinery of false confront secured by NATO and EU. That will also show clearly, that we are all in Balkans finally trapped in the same pot of new colonialism, and it will be a huge struggle for us to keep a decent human life within new world order slavery. Because of that I see Greek referendum to be a mjor freedom act for all of us in the region, and I hope for the best, as if we look openly to the situation, Greek people has nothing to loose if they say NOo to the blackmailing and abuse from EU. There will be a temporary discomfort, till they swithc to new economy, but it is a good land, great Mediterranean position, and country with not to much people, what is quite enough to sustain their needs, if they turn more towards themselves.
 
Here's another, cleaner translation of Tsipras' speech to the nation (and the second video is an interview with Finance Minister Varoufakis):

http://thesaker.is/prime-minister-alexis-tsipras-statement-to-the-nation-interview-of-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis/
 
solarmind said:
Greek people has nothing to loose if they say NOo to the blackmailing and abuse from EU. There will be a temporary discomfort, till they swithc to new economy, but it is a good land, great Mediterranean position, and country with not to much people, what is quite enough to sustain their needs, if they turn more towards themselves.

Hi solarmind,

I greatly sympathize with your point of view. It's a courageous stance and sometimes that is what's needed. For humanity.

I pointed out the dangers previously because it's quite real. And in times of great suffering & chaos, what emerges can often be worse. That's the main reason I said what I said.

But there is hope. Russia went through hell and back in the 90's. With unbelievable carnage. (Many in the west don't fully understand the true extent of hardship the Russians endured then.) But what emerged was a new direction--and new enlightened leadership.

Perhaps Greece can do same ... eventually. We can only hope. But it'll be a long haul.

FWIW.

PS
My other sense is if things continue to go south ... the universe will clean house.
 
in comes the ADL (anti defemation league) - ADL Poll: 85% of Greeks Believe the Jews Have Too Much Power Over Global Finance - http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/07/adl-poll-85-of-greeks-believe-jews-have.html

Translation: Greeks are anti-semitic, that is why they don't want to pay their debts and that is why they should be punished.
 
Alana said:
- There's the German Debt Committee, which is created to investigate the dept own to Greece by Germany from both WWI & WWII (an amount of money that probably will be as high as Greece's current debt, or at least close enough). When the Greek minister of foreign affairs was in Moscow last April, upon his return to Greece he thanked the Russian government for sending him all the info and archives they have for both World Wars to help in this specific investigation. There were rumors at the time also that Russia and Greece will ask together to be paid the dept Germany owns them from those times, in an international court of law. Remember also that the only reason Germany was able to improve economically and become the economic queen of Europe today, is because it's own national dept after WWII was cancelled. Many economists these days brouthis fact on the media and are asking why can't the same happen for Greece. Nobody from Brussels gave an answer. For more info read this article posted by the Guardian: Greece and Spain helped postwar Germany recover. Spot the difference

Not only half of Germany debt for WW2 was canceled in 1953 but also 83% of Germany WW1 debt was canceled in 1931. Comparing the way Germany was treated back then and the way Greece is treated now reveals a sickening double standard.
 
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