Author Topic: "The Crisis of Civilization"  (Read 23993 times)

Offline Charles

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"The Crisis of Civilization"
« on: November 07, 2006, 12:33:59 AM »
I am not entirely sure whether what follows should be posted in this thread. It has offshoots to many other topics.

Today, I stumbled upon a site that I started reading with great interest. I later found out that Gennady Bondarev was already known by Laura back in 2002, in one of the sessions and is mentioned once in the article "Darkness over Tibet", for his view over the importance of middle Europe to establish the "I", and how it is being defeated at every step and turn. Back than, there were no English translations of his work which was in Russian and had a German translation. Here there are already some chapters translated in English.

I have not read CoZ yet, except for the excerpts that have appeared on the forum. And if I am not mistaken, there are striking similarities.

In the introduction of www.geocities(dot)com/Athens/Sparta/1105/BondarevExcerpts.htm, we can read:

Quote from: Robert Mason
Bondarev was expelled from the General Anthroposophical Society in 1998, the given reason being the alleged "anti-Semitism" expressed in this book and the omitted passages. (There is reason to suspect that this given reason was not the real reason.) A second edition was prepared in 1997-8 and appeared in German in 1999. This Web page is based on Graham Rickett's revision of Helga Schulte-Schroer's English translation from the second German edition.
Expelled !? Because of anti-semitism. Interesting isn't it?

Some excerpts that IMO were worth sharing:

Quote
Some excerpts from
The Crisis of Civilization
by Gennady Bondarev

". . . PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO THINK, THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE CONSISTENT, THEY DO NOT WANT TO THINK THINGS THROUGH TO THE END. THEY DO NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT, WITH THIS KIND OF CONDUCT, THEY PLACE THEMSELVES ENTIRELY IN THE SERVICE OF EVIL." [p. 106]

"At every news-stand today, every meeting of atheists, monists, politicians, we encounter ritual black magic. And often we find it in anthroposophical gatherings too. It is even delivered to people's homes free of charge, and this continues until a man him self consciously says: 'It is enough!' And if anyone thinks that he has to keep silent for the sake of balance and harmony, which are in any case non-existent, then this advice can only be followed by one who has neither reason nor heart." [p. 114]

"It was known in the occult societies that the impulse of the new sociality streams from the Spirit, that the conditions for this had matured on earth {after the ascension of Michael as Time-Spirit in 1879} and that the developed self-consciousness of man is no longer willing to endure the last form of slavery -- the sale of human labour. It was becoming dangerous to ignore the decree of the spirit and it was impossible to do away with it entirely. Therefore the impulse was given free rein, but in an ahrimanic sheath. From the beginning both Russia and Germany were subject to attack." [p. 117]
* * *      
{The Russian Whites were betrayed from within by Lodge members.} [p. 120]
* * *      
". . . behind the February Revolution something different was hidden, and only a few knew of it. The designated interim government headed by Kerensky -- all of them Lodge members -- had the task of transferring power to the Bolsheviks." [p. 128]
"When the brotherhoods gradually lost control over the 'socialistic experiment' in the '20's they handed it over to the Jesuits. The same is happening today. Then we would have to reckon with the setting up of an 'orthodox inquisition' in the medieval style, which would lead orthodox Christianity into the abyss. . . . 'Orthodox fundamentalism' awaits us under the banner of the 'Orthodox Monarchy', accompanied by a new wave of terror.
"Deeply religious Russians warned already before The 'Perestroika' period: 'Now the Communists forbid the people to go to church; the time will come when people will be forced to go to Church -- but one must not go then, because the Anti-Christ will be enthroned there.'" [p. 232]

"The entire strength of ahrimanic spirits, their existence itself, is based on human ignorance, and so these spirits will not tolerate a consciousness that is audacious enough to wish to examine their nature more closely. Whoever does this all the same will experience in his soul an incredibly refreshing, liberating effect surging in great waves over the world of all that is true." -- Gennady Bondarev [p. 144]
I also read the 19th chapter,  The "Inexpressible" Mystery of Good and Evil   www.geocities(dot)com/Athens/Sparta/1105/GoodEvil.htm

IMO, it could be a valuable endeavour to try to find similarities with the analysis of psychopaths in "political ponerology". At least it could refine our understanding of how pathocracy works, or deepen our understanding why it is there. It is well possible that what you will read here is going beyond the mere motivation of the psychopathic characters to find pleasure in control and manipulation and/or try to keep there lofty status quo.

Quote
On the path to higher stages of life hindrances are created by the luciferic and ahrimanic beings. As we have already mentioned, they need the human being, in order to catch up in their development. Thus they initially furthered man's individualization, his separation from the universal-human. But now man's task is not to follow them any longer, but to lead a strong, independent life in his 'I' through overcoming them.

When Lucifer and Ahriman influence human thinking, their aim is to arouse the false conviction that man in his inner being is only contradictory, and that the contradictions cannot be resolved. Thus they invent, says Rudolf Steiner, thought-combinations in the human soul such as: in tune, in harmony with the infinite, etc. Such conceptions arise because in their souls human beings are too cowardly to face up to contradiction, and want to let Lucifer-Ahriman invent for them a harmony with the infinite ... To seek satisfaction in such a world-view is equivalent to tying a blindfold over one's eyes. Today the human being shies away from looking at the multiplicity of battles that are fought in spiritual realms (Aug. 14, 1917, GA 176).

When attacking man, Lucifer approaches him from the side of the will (from below) and Ahriman from thinking (from above). Ahriman continuously strives to make man only into a head. Lucifer seeks continuously to cut off man's head so that he cannot think at all, so that everything is diverted through the heart and streams out as warmth, that he overflows with world-love and pours out into the world as world-love, pours forth as a cosmic fantasist (July 3, 1921, GA 205). Lucifer is fond of pious souls who strive for the spirit, for the good, but only out of egoism. Nowhere does Lucifer intrude more in our feelings - Rudolf Steiner says - than where people are striving for the divine out of their passions and desires (often cunningly refined) without illuminating the divine with the light of knowledge (May 18, 1910, GA 120).

Thinking has actually, if the human being truly masters it and does not merely use stereotyped phrases, the quality of will. Here instinctive will becomes conscious for the first time through the motive of an action, and then a deed becomes our own. The Luciferic beings, however, fetter the will that begins to free itself in man. They try to cast unclarity over the human being regarding the exercise of free will through making him into a good being. Lucifer wants actually to bring about - says Rudolf Steiner -, from the point of view I am alluding to here, the good in man, the spiritual. But he wants to make it automatic, without free will. The human being is, so to speak, to be automatically raised to clairvoyance according to good principles, but the luciferic beings want to rob man of his free will (and thereby) of the possibility for evil ... [They] have a strong interest in taking hold of man so that he cannot come to free (i.e. reasoned) will, because they did not achieve it themselves. Free will can only be attained on earth. But they want to have nothing to do with the earth ... They act in a highly spiritual manner, but they act automatically - this is of immense significance -, and they want to raise the human being up to their own ... spiritual height (Oct. 9, 1918, GA 182).

If we take note of these words and think of all the moral sermons with which all the confessions throughout the world wish to edify us, we realize at once that the utopia of K. S. Mereshkovsky will surely become social reality if people are unwilling to recognize in what times they are living. Where the luciferic beings once gave man the impulse to freedom, they now do the exact opposite. The reason for this is profound, for they remained behind in the aeon of the Old Moon, when man did not yet have an 'I'. The highest member of his revealed existence was the astral body. At that time they were not yet permitted to work upon it; but in the earth aeon they may. Here, however, man is developing the individual 'I', which is worked upon above all by the higher spirits; and through the 'I' they then work further on to the astral body and effect within it a catharsis. For this reason the 'I' is the enemy of the luciferic spirits, who try to extinguish it by working upon it from the astral body. They were allowed to inhabit this in order to fragment the unity of the astrality of mankind into a multiplicity of monads. Thanks to the luciferic spirits man can experience enthusiasm and elation - the source of his artistic activity. Thus human freedom was made possible, but at the same time the fall from God, and evil.

In a certain sense the human being strives for the ideal of ascending higher than his thoughts, feelings and expressions of will, to look upon them as something external in relation to himself as 'I'. But it is not easy to go through life in such a frame of mind. And at the same time, so long as it is not objectified in us, we can have no conception of the way 'I' and thinking, feeling and willing can stand over against one another, as this was originally intended by the divine beings.
The human being was intended to be an observer of himself, not to experience within himself - says Rudolf Steiner. But, he continues, Lucifer turned to man and spoke the following words: 'Just look, O man, how boring it is always to walk around in the world with this one central point 'I am', and merely look at everything else. It is far more interesting to dive down into your astral body. I give you the power to dive down into your astral body, and then you will not remain one-sidedly in your 'I' always staring only at your 'double', but you will dive down into it. Whatever may come over you as you dive into your astral body, which would feel like a drowning, I will compensate for by giving you something of my strength ...' And what man received by way of luciferic strength is the surplus of the 'I' over the astral body, it is the greater 'I-hood', which is actually luciferic (Dec. 29, 1911, GA 134). This is how we united through the higher 'I' with our thinking, feeling and willing and started to build our everyday 'I', so to speak, from below upwards.
The excess of the 'I'-force over the astral body gave rise to the excess of the astral body over the ether-body and this, in Lemurian times, led to the birth of individual life-processes.
What stood out to me in this excerpt and that I recognize in real life, is the division between Luciferian influence on the one hand and Ahrimamic influence or manipulation on the other hand. Both are definitely on the rise in our speedy drive towards or into a NWO. Here is a little more:

Quote
Manifold are the influences upon man, of Lucifer and Ahriman, who are antipodes in the cosmos. They reveal themselves as such also within us. Where, for instance, Lucifer hates any kind of law, Ahriman would like everything to comply with law: statutes, regulations, programmes and so on. Their polar opposite characteristics and influences can be shown in a table.
Lucifer   
* Is more a being of soul and holds sway in man's inner being   
Ahriman
* Is more a spiritual being, the Lord of outer (material) nature

Lucifer   
* Is a haughty spirit   
Ahriman
* Is a solitary spirit

Lucifer   
* Suppresses free will   
Ahriman
* Strengthens the will, but only in order to achieve what is desired

Lucifer   
* Robs man of the freedom to do evil   
Ahriman
* Inspires moral relativism

Lucifer   
* Incites to transgressions of the will   
Ahriman
* Inspires error in thinking

Lucifer   
* Fears conscious morality, but loves piety dictated by egoism   
Ahriman
* Fears the power of judgment, consequential thinking

Lucifer   
* Fluctuation; chaos    
Ahriman
* Emphasizes form and law

Lucifer   
* He draws upwards, into the nebulous, mystical   
Ahriman
* Promotess pedantry and philistinism

Lucifer   
* Has ascetic contempt for the earthly   
Ahriman
* Furthers cold, inhuman science

Lucifer   
* Promotes group-like emotions    
Ahriman
* Loves routine and likes to work into the subconscious activity

Lucifer   
* Is revolutionary    
Ahriman
* Is conservative and wants to remain in the present moment

Lucifer   
* Robs man of a genuine consciousness and harmony with the outer world   
Ahriman
* Promotes lies, cliches and ideologies

Lucifer   
* Promotes hunger for knowledge   
Ahriman
* Uses knowledge to achieve what is desired

Because Lucifer and Ahriman complement one another in complex interaction, they influence man and bring about in him a whole system of one-sided patterns of behaviour, a precise system, for otherwise sciences such as psychology and psychiatry would not be possible, and moral education could not be combined in one system. Anthroposophy differs from current sciences of the soul only in that it takes account of real spiritual beings who work upon the soul.
We will borrow just one example from Rudolf Steiner, showing the laws that apply in the sphere of temptation. He speaks in one lecture of the dangers to which modern man is exposed if he confesses one-sidedly to either the materialistic or the idealistic world-view. When this is the case the following complex of reciprocal relationships arises:

Idealists: Thinking and imagining can easily become luciferic; dreamers, fantasists, enthusiasts.
Will can easily become ahrimanic; despotic, tyrannical.

Materialists: Thinking, imagining can easily become ahrimanic; sober, philistine, dry, bourgeois.
Will can easily become luciferic; animalistic, greedy, nervous, sensitive, hysterical (March 28, 1919, GA 190).

When we thus perceive the nature of the spiritual forces that work counter to the development of the personality, we penetrate to the archetypal phenomenon of all that finds its manifold expression today in power-structures in the confessions, in sub-culture, in social organizations and finally in occultism. Then we begin to understand the primary source of today's crisis of civilization in its full depth: why politics has become occult and inhumane, why religions estrange man from the world, where the geniuses of pop-culture originate, and why so terrible a battle has erupted for the enslavement of human self-consciousness.
On the one hand all this has to be, for through opposing God man becomes a free spirit. On the other hand, because 'I'-consciousness is already developed, man must use this capacity in the task of reconciliation with God, and lead his forces along the path of higher development. The 'prodigal son' should have returned to his spiritual home long ago and should know exactly how this is achieved. He should know that for a long time to come he will be standing between the luciferic and ahrimanic forces which he is not permitted to ignore, eliminate or conquer, but which he must learn to lead to mutual cancellation. That is the method to use in the battle with evil. It is based on the continuous enhancement of the principle of individuality, of self-consciousness.
It is of crucial importance for us to know that Ahriman's influence on man in our epoch is dangerous only when the consciousness is disturbed in any way. So long as the consciousness is clear and alert, is not darkened by lies, drugged by sub-culture or undermined by occult practices, asceticism and fear - then neither Ahriman nor Lucifer can harm man. On the contrary, the autonomous human spirit is strengthened through confronting them.
It is dangerous, indeed fatal, for the human being if he does not know what dark spiritual forces approach him, when Lucifer is confused with God and Ahriman with Lucifer. The adversaries know the forces which enable man to build a trinity on the earthly plane, and they veil this secret from him completely, for its revelation enables humanity to achieve the state of balance between ahrimanic and luciferic powers (Nov. 21, 1919, GA 194) and neutralize them.
What follows after this excerpt is a rant against homosexuality. I do not recognize this myself. He seems to be considering this as a mortal sin. Also, this is the only place in this chapter where he is writing very "passionately". One wonders why, of course. So Caveat Lector.

Still IMO, there's lots to be gleaned from his writing. Maybe I am only trying to save the baby from being flushed away with the bathwater ?
“Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.”
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Carpe

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"The Crisis of Civilization"
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2006, 06:42:21 AM »
I made i search on Gennady Bondarev in russian, and found Nothing at all! Neither his name is mentioned even once, or book title. Hmmm
What else is known about Bondarev besides he is ex-member of antroposiphical society?
Added: OK, there is one book, where Gennady Aleksandrovich Bondarev is mentioned in relation to crisic in Antroposophical society. Book title: Occult mysteries of good and evil by Valeri Korshikov
Page is here: http://lib.ru(slash)URIKOVA/STEINER/korshikow.txt_Piece40.08,         full text: http://lib.ru(slash)URIKOVA/STEINER/korshikow.txt
Quote from: Bondarev
The social, economic, and political disasters of the 20th Century were not natural, blind developments but were planned, and these plans were coordinated by an inner core, a hidden center of occult-political conspirators. The world crisis is at base a crisis of consciousness, since the driving force of social evolution is the evolution of human consciousness.} "The deepening world-crisis is not the consequence of a natural necessity but of a crisis of the human spirit, of cognition and of consciousness. The solution must therefore be sought in this realm." [p. 7]
"Every human being is engaged in this {spiritual, occult, political, social} battle, on the outcome of which both our Earthly and cosmic destiny depends. . . . We must be quite clear about what we have to do, how we must behave in order truly to serve God and not Mammon. In other words: continuous research into the nature of those forces that lie behind all human relations is of crucial importance.
"Some might respond that this task of cognition is too difficult for many people. Very well, but the responsibility borne by those able to grasp historical symptomatology is all the greater. . . .
". . . it is rather a lack of will than of ability if someone does not know the background of events." [p. 27]
". . . And especially if one wants to have insight into social matters, it is essential for waking life that above all we have the will to acquire insight. . . . A great deal can be accomplished if only we have the earnest will first of all to gain insight. All else will then come. . . . it is unspeakably tragic if people cannot decide at least to get to know the social laws spiritual-scientifically, to study them. The rest will come, if they are studied. (Dec. 12, 1918, GA 186).
". . . . the question: to know or not to know? is identical with another: To be or not to be?" [p. 62]
"Only what is able to appeal to the Holy Chalice, the Mystery of Golgatha, can withstand the world-wide unity of Ahriman. But, for this, spiritual freedom is necessary, the ability to penetrate the secrets of the world right down to their archetypal phenomena, as well as the ability to bring life to moral intuitions." [p. 82]
". . . it must be stressed that when we speak of the dark occult-political forces we must in no way equate them with the nations in whose sphere they prey for a time and in whose name they speak.
"The material culture of Europe and America appears by now like a hard shell. But this is only one side; the other is its hidden kernal. If this could be brought to the light of day, then something would emerge that is born of a healthy spirit. . . ." [p. 288]
"What is to be said of those who falsify this spirituality, who prevent its free access to humanity? "One can observe that those who have, for reasons of fate that are unknown to us, taken up this terrible task live in a state of half-instinctive fear. The power they have gained in our midst is built solely on our weakness; but they live constantly with the thought: 'If they move but one finger we are lost.' -- But we do not move our finger, indeed -- we voluntarily submit to the power of ssuch people! "'Where are they? I cannot see any', one or another sleeper will ask. Of course, nothing can be seen if you keep your eyes closed. One must first learn to recognize the symptoms, to become a Goetheanist in the broadest sense. People who are deformed in the Lodges and Orders bear the mark of it in their countenance. Everything that is employed as a gesture, a movement, a word in the occult brotherhoods of the West has an effect on the human etheric body, on the subconscious (cf. Apr. 4, 1916, GA 167). And soon this effect finds its specific expression in the entire human being. Even a simple ideology alters the appearance of its bearer." [p. 288-9]
The lie has already 'struck' the ether-body of the human being. When a true word is spoken, irregular 'beats' occur in the interplay of nervous system and circulation, resulting in hysteria. The spirit-being of the lie causes a mutiny in the astral body, and cannot be exorcised by arguments or explanations since it is already rooted in the ether-body, into which it enters by way of the rational soul which has been suggestively influenced by the press. A person of this sort, when confronted with truth, experiences fits of suffocation and a rush of blood to the head. A discussion with him is therefore senseless, foolish and dangerous. To stick to his old prejudice -- to the lie -- is for him a question of being and not only of consciousness." [p. 122]
". . . Western conditions. It turned out that censorship exists there -- albeit not in the same form {as in the USSR} -- just as it does with us. In the West the individual is so trained, that of himself he will not pick up a book if the opinion-shaping organs 'advise against it'. In Russia most people behaved in this way for the simple reason that one was severely punished for reading forbidden literature. But the Western intellectual already fears the theoretical possibility of not just punishment, but even the tiniest possible disadvantage to his career. Even minimal contact with a way of thinking and viewing things, that deviates from the official (propagandistic) one, he experiences as a lessening of his comfort in life, and he therefore avoids it completely. That it could have consequences for the world and ultimately for his own destiny too -- this thought he pushes aside, he does not want to face it. In short: the security forces in the West do not need to persecute the representative of the intellectual life -- they have tamed him socially. . . . The few individuals who take up the struggle for truth nevertheless, risk everything, just as we do in Russia: their freedom as well as their life. "We already spoke of disturbances and arrhythmia in the nervous system and blood circulation suffered by a Western intellectual if he inadvertently stumbles upon the truth. This phenomenon appears particularly repellent in people who claim to be socially awake, or who have even freely taken upon themselves the obligation to stand consciously in their time." [p. 165]
"Yes, cruel indeed is the image of the Orwellian boots that trample on the human countenance, but still more cruel is the filthy shoe of the intellectuals, which is planted on the face of culture. "It is worth looking at the faces of the station's broadcasters, as they constantly appear on the post-Soviet television screen: inflated, haughty, but -- most important -- ominous, pervaded by the dark spirit of the occult political background, and demonstrating with their whole being what the 'black magic' of journalism is." [p. 219]
"We need only to consider the 'Jahveizing' of the entire civilization, the unity of the highest leadership of the Orders and Lodges, where Rabbis and Monsignori sit together most amicably. It is there that National Socialism (or Fascism) was 'invented'." [p. 166]
"The brotherhoods are at present thinking through in a comprehensive way the results as well as the miscalculations of the {Soviet} experiment so that a universal net can now be woven, whose meshes will be so tight that not even the smallest 'fish' will slip through. Once the net is complete, the whole of humanity will be enclosed in it. . . . The greater part of humanity will continue to be influenced by America, but not the America we know today. It will not be long after the year 2000 has come round, that not a direct, but a kind of prohibition on all thinking will issue from America, a law whose purpose will be the suppression of all individual thinking (Apr. 4, 1916, GA 167). [p. 83]
Alien baboon killing with some secret keys

baklavatsky

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"The Crisis of Civilization"
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2007, 03:10:30 AM »
He actually was the director of the Russian Anthroposophical Society. His name spells different in the German language ("Gennadi Bondarew" or even "Gennadij Bondarew") : _http://www.lochmann-verlag.com/bondarewKreuzung_info.htm

The fact that he was expelled from The Anthroposophical Society is talked about among anthroposophists here:
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy/message/11297

Here are his books. _http://www.lochmann-verlag.com/bondarew%20info%20a.htm

English translations of some European anthroposophists' works :
_http://www.lochmann-verlag.com/englischetexte.htm

This is not the first anthroposophist to be attacked with "antisemitism" charges. Irene Diet wrote a book and articles in French in which she criticizes the orthodox jew ethno-tribalist version of reincarnation (resurrected by so-called 'past lives therapists'), as opposed to anthroposophy's universalist vision of reincarnation. For French readers only, sorry! _http://users.skynet.be/etc/Art_Reincarn/Dg2098.html

Steiner himself was attacked with such a senseless and baseless charge. Here is a whole study about the position of Steiner on Jews. They also briefly mention his opposition to the whole idea of zionism and isolation of Jews from the rest of humanity. _http://uncletaz.com/steinsem.html

This article is about The Advent of Ahriman today. _http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1105/ahriman.htm
from a materialistic piont of view, we could say this is about the evolution of the thought system of psychopaths, which is locked into materialism and control, without conscience.

Having read the whole text about Evil, I read the section about the beastliness of homosexuality as a warning  against the false alchemical androgyne that transvestite and homosexuals live through. In the recent past, therer where scientific observations of the psychological and emotional dysfunction in homosexuals, a mental disease that lead to homosexual perversion. This is an extreme view, but in a way this must be pointed out also, since we live in a politically correct view that claims that "homosexuality can never be evil". This is false and that PC thinking is obliging us all to accept perversions like sadomasochistic practices, leading sometimes to rape and pedophilia, as if they were, as PC thinking goes, "natural extensions of homosexuality, which cannot never be evil". Bondarev also points out that homophobic are called fascists, and that this is false also. The inner circle of the SS were gays and practiced sadomasochistic and other perverse sexual action. Does that make them champions of anti-fascism?  LOL!

Offline anart

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"The Crisis of Civilization"
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2007, 07:31:52 AM »
Quote from: baklavatsky
leading sometimes to rape and pedophilia, as if they were, as PC thinking goes, "natural extensions of homosexuality, which cannot never be evil".
Just a quick clarification here, Baklavatsky, homosexuals are NOT pedophiles - in fact, the vast, vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual males - whether they abuse male or female children.  Lumping in homosexuality with pedophilia is rather like lumping in cannibalism with carnivore - it's simply not the same thing at all.

There is a world of difference between rape and pedophilia and homosexuality - in fact, there is no relation between the two - same sex pedophilia is not homosexuality, it is pedophilia.

Offline Renaissance

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"The Crisis of Civilization"
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2007, 08:37:48 AM »
Quote from: baklavatsky
In the recent past, therer where scientific observations of the psychological and emotional dysfunction in homosexuals, a mental disease that lead to homosexual perversion.
What do you mean by 'recent past'? A year or two ago? several decades?  I've come across psychology books from the 70's that call homosexuality a 'metal disease' and thought how ridiculous it is.  I don't doubt there is psychological dysfunction in many people who are homosexual, however I think a lot of this dysfunction is influenced from society's perversion in labeling homosexuality a disease, not the other way around.

Quote from: baklavatsky
Bondarev also points out that homophobic are called fascists, and that this is false also. The inner circle of the SS were gays and practiced sadomasochistic and other perverse sexual action. Does that make them champions of anti-fascism?  LOL!
Umm... the SS were homophobic to say the least.  They persecuted those who were homosexual just as they did with Gypsies, intellectuals, Jews, Poles, etc.  So, how could these men be homophobic and also be performing homosexual acts?

Laura wrote some interesting stuff in this thread that lends to the discussion (reading the whole post would be good for the background material too).  

Quote from: Laura
Perhaps the instinctive nature of the majority of human beings erroneously perceives harmless homosexuality as a manifestation of what they have always known, instinctively, to be a manifestation of humanity's predator: psychopathy?

Psychopaths manifest a form of homosexuality that is not true homosexuality as we think of it, and it is quite frightening.  It also seems to be mainly a male thing which might be reflected in the Atrahasis where they refer to the "third category" as exclusively female.  (Just a speculation here.)

Psychopathic homosexuality emerges from a mind-set that sees sex as a physical appetite like any other and will use whatever or whoever is present to satisfy those urges.  The "partner" is never anything other than an object to be assimilated in some way.

In case most of you haven't noticed, or haven't been doing the research, again and again we find that people like Bush, Cheney, Rove, and so on - even if they live lives as heterosexuals - are, by nature this particular kind of homosexual, one that utilizes homosexuality as a means to dominate other men.  My guess is that this was the real background to the much vaunted "Greek Pederasty".  It wasn't about "loving little boys" it was about corrupting and controlling them a la Ponerology - they were objects, helpless and impressionable ones at that.

There is a close relationship between this type of psychopathic homosexuality and pedophilia because, as I said, it is about dominance, control, subjecting those weaker than oneself.  It is this kind of homosexuality that has gotten the most press and is the reason that there is an almost knee-jerk reaction to homosexuality in general.   If you are using someone else to make you feel good and what makes you feel good is dominance and control, whether you are homosexual or heterosexual, you are abusing the creative energy of sex.

We also notice that  psychopathic homosexuality is also quite often connected to things like B & D and strange sexual practices that have nothing to do with love.
Conscious faith is freedom. Emotional faith is slavery. Mechanical faith is foolishness. - Gurdjieff

baklavatsky

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"The Crisis of Civilization"
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2007, 10:13:05 AM »
I studied a bit in psychology in university and my books showed some researches that claimed that homosexuality is largely determined by traumas linked to bad experiences with the other sex, and that this inherent psychological and emotional inner trouble leads to homosexuality. This is written in jargon and not widely publicised because it's not PC.

I was just saying - maybe I express myself badly - that there is this thread of thinking that claims that we have to accept homosexuals... and then, because PC says that "we cannot discriminate against any", SM bondage practices, and pedophilia and other perversions come in as well. In some circles Bondarev describes as being more and more popular in Russia, gays who express a healthy disgust or rejection of sadomasochistic practices and other perversions, such as zoophilia, pedophilia and others, are being shown the door. Bondarev and I don't confuse the issues, THEY do. I know that pedophilia is not homosexuality, they're clearly different realities.

But, it is a widely known fact that a LOT of homosexuals like very young men. Maybe you don't agree, but you just have to look at it to see it. In "hot lines for chat and meet", they warn young homos about this.

I also approve Bondarev being a conservative, but his conservatism is not a reactionarism, it is looking a the (anthroposophically described) fundamentals of nature and mankind as divided in a sacred polarity that cannot be overlooked or denied.  

Libertarism is not a valid ideology, it leads to transgressionism.

Also, I must mention that I found very laughable the part about homosexuals going to jail in V for Vendetta because everyone knows that TODAY the ones who go in prison are not the gays, it's the ones who talks against the lack of conscience of exhibitionist and outrageously transgressive gays. People who talk against gays and jews (zionists) are targetted now. Do the homos have to be protected anymore? They have their own "B'nai B'rith"! They became the gay lobby, same as civil liberties lobby and jewish lobby. Gays did the same as the Zionists did. They share the same 'victimist communitarism'.

Some people only see the anti-fascist battles of the past, we have to fight the anti-fascists battles of the present times. Gayness has become an obligatory difference, whereas the difference of a person like the Pope is denied.

We are being fed this PC propaganda: "The Pope does not have the right to be different, gays have the right to be different. We have to accept gays and condemn the Pope."

This is a caricature, but it expresses my point clearly. In fact I don't especially agree with the Pope, I sure don't!

Offline anart

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« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2007, 10:50:09 AM »
Quote from: baklavatsky
I studied a bit in psychology in university and my books showed some researches that claimed that homosexuality is largely determined by traumas linked to bad experiences with the other sex, and that this inherent psychological and emotional inner trouble leads to homosexuality. This is written in jargon and not widely publicised because it's not PC.
Studying a bit of psychology does not a psychologist make - it also makes for 'knowing just enough to be dangerous'.  It might be the case that this 'linked largely to traumas' is not widely publicized because it is junk science with an agenda.  Human sexuality is very complex, and there are as many different motivations for sexuality, be it heterosexual or homosexual, as there are different human beings.  You seem to have an agenda in your explanations - do you have an aversion to homosexuals?

Quote from: B
I was just saying - maybe I express myself badly - that there is this thread of thinking that claims that we have to accept homosexuals...
No, but there is a thread of thinking that says we have to accept human beings.  There is also a thread of thinking that says that people who are overly concerned with homosexuality; who have a hatred or aversion to human beings who happen to be homosexual, are indicating that they themselves are conflicted about their own sexuality - 'he doth protest too much'.

Quote from: b
and then, because PC says that "we cannot discriminate against any", SM bondage practices, and pedophilia and other perversions come in as well.
Here I highly disagree, simply because homosexuality is NOT S&M, pedophilia or any other perversion.  You are lacking a fundamental understanding of the issue.



Quote from: b
In some circles Bondarev describes as being more and more popular in Russia, gays who express a healthy disgust or rejection of sadomasochistic practices and other perversions, such as zoophilia, pedophilia and others, are being shown the door.
What do you mean by 'shown the door'?  You are applying the behavior of a small group of people to a wider population and it is simply a ridiculous thing to do - if a small group of republicans showed the door to those republicans who would not condone torture, that does not mean that all republicans condone torture? Do you understand that you are evidencing rather limited, if not conversive, thinking?


Quote from: b
Bondarev and I don't confuse the issues, THEY do.
You do as well.

Quote from: b
I know that pedophilia is not homosexuality, they're clearly different realities.
Yet, you continue to link them.  Pedophilia is violence against the innocent - it is not only a violation of Free Will, it is abhorrent violence against those least able to protect themselves - children.  There is no comparison, on any level.


Quote from: b
But, it is a widely known fact that a LOT of homosexuals like very young men. Maybe you don't agree, but you just have to look at it to see it. In "hot lines for chat and meet", they warn young homos about this.
Widely known by whom?  I would ask you to provide data for this statement, but I happen to know that no such data exists.  Young men are not children - whether it is a fifty year old straight man dating a twenty two year old woman or a fifty year old gay man dating a twenty two year old man, it is NOT pedophilia.  You are woefully misinformed, and rather emotionally so, which tends to be indicative of a deeper issue.

Quote from: b
I also approve Bondarev being a conservative, but his conservatism is not a reactionarism, it is looking a the (anthroposophically described) fundamentals of nature and mankind as divided in a sacred polarity that cannot be overlooked or denied.
Judging from his, and your, faulty conclusions, this is simply not the case.  I do not know that you will be able to understand that, however.

Quote from: b
ntion that I found very laughable the part about homosexuals going to jail in V for Vendetta because everyone knows that TODAY the ones who go in prison are not the gays, it's the ones who talks against the lack of conscience of exhibitionist and outrageously transgressive gays.
Be careful, your bigotry is showing - quite plainly - and by bigotry, I don't mean a 'lack of PC' thinking, I mean a hatred built on ignorance.


Quote from: b
People who talk against gays and jews (zionists) are targetted now.
Please provide data to back up this statement.


Quote from: b
Do the homos have to be protected anymore? They have their own "B'nai B'rith"! They became the gay lobby, same as civil liberties lobby and jewish lobby. Gays did the same as the Zionists did. They share the same 'victimist communitarism'.
Thank you for yet another glimpse into your hatred - quite telling.  Your ignorance on the state of human rights on this planet for those human beings who are homosexual is astounding.

Quote from: b
Some people only see the anti-fascist battles of the past, we have to fight the anti-fascists battles of the present times.
Quite interesting coming from you.


Quote from: b
Gayness has become an obligatory difference, whereas the difference of a person like the Pope is denied.
The entire idea that 'gays' as you call 'them' are different is the problem - human beings of conscience are human beings of conscience, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual - do you understand that?  Pedopheliacs are not human beings of conscience - they are not human beings at all.

Quote from: b
We are being fed this PC propaganda: "The Pope does not have the right to be different, gays have the right to be different. We have to accept gays and condemn the Pope."

This is a caricature, but it expresses my point clearly. In fact I don't especially agree with the Pope, I sure don't!
Now I'm a bit confused - to what are referring when you say the pope has no right to be different?  

You seem to have a rather deep seated issue with homosexuality that it might do you well to investigate.  I realize that what I have written above will not be easy for you to read and it will most likely quite upset you, but you must understand that your understanding on this matter is short-sighted, bigoted and rather ignorant, to say that least.

Offline judvic

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« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2007, 11:57:52 AM »
Hi,

Pedophilia would need to be more precisely defined.

Some say that one cannot speak of pedophilia when the person is passed puberty. Some psychatrist say that it is normal to be attracted by pubescent youth and there is nothing perverse about it. In the Middle Age mothers were 13 years old.
Others extend the notion of pedophilia to  the fact of "abusing" pubescent youth  who are not mature psychologicaly. There is a lot of arbitrary in this situation and the age limit is often set on moral grounds and/or political purpose. e
The term abuse would need to be defined also...

In anti-gay litterature, there is this figure: the rate of pedophilia is 5 times more important among homosexual than among heterosexuals.
Even if this figure is true (which I don't know), it is not significative because because peophilia is not defined.

On the other hand  some feminist  go as far as pretending that 90 percent of girls have been  "abused" by males.


So there is a lot of subjectivity and sometimes hatred around all these issues.
 
As for me, I think that having same sex relationships is one thing, belonging to the gay movement is another one. The first is a completely human behaviour (even if the repulsion for heterosexual relationships may reveal some kind of difficulties, who among us does not have difficulties that show up in our behaviour some way or the other?), the second is an ideology and as such is  often dangerous.

Ludovic

Offline Mr. Premise

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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2007, 02:33:21 PM »
I agree with what Shane and Anart wrote but wanted to point out that, on the right-wing, homosexual acts and homophobia frequently go together. Think of Senator Craig, J Edgar Hoover, etc., etc. What baklavatsky pointed out about Hitler's inner circle is well-attested and accepted historical truth. But again I agree with the responses in general.

Quote from: Shane
Quote from: baklavatsky
Bondarev also points out that homophobic are called fascists, and that this is false also. The inner circle of the SS were gays and practiced sadomasochistic and other perverse sexual action. Does that make them champions of anti-fascism?  LOL!
Umm... the SS were homophobic to say the least.  They persecuted those who were homosexual just as they did with Gypsies, intellectuals, Jews, Poles, etc.  So, how could these men be homophobic and also be performing homosexual acts?

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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2007, 10:53:50 PM »
I think this is being healthy to feel disgust at same-sex kisses and sexual acts. This is not a behavior that leads to life, it leads to death (non-reproductive). With all the chemicals in our food and environment, there'll be more gays in the future, and humanity may have problems to reproduce itself if one day half the people are gays. Self-evident truth.

Quote from: b
In some circles Bondarev describes as being more and more popular in Russia, gays who express a healthy disgust or rejection of sadomasochistic practices and other perversions, such as zoophilia, pedophilia and others, are being shown the door.
I speak about those sick circles that are getting more and more popular, that Bondarev describes.

Quote from: b
I know that pedophilia is not homosexuality, they're clearly different realities.
Men like young sexual partners, especially gay men. This is a widely known fact.

Quote from: b
But, it is a widely known fact that a LOT of homosexuals like very young men. Maybe you don't agree, but you just have to look at it to see it. In "hot lines for chat and meet", they warn young homos about this.
I know some gays, I respect them, and they told me that lavalife (to search gay mates) warns young gays bout old gay men who happen to very often like young boys. You just didn't know that, that's all.

Quote from: b
I also approve Bondarev being a conservative, but his conservatism is not a reactionarism, it is looking at the (anthroposophically described) fundamentals of nature and mankind as divided in a sacred polarity that cannot be overlooked or denied.
Quote from: b
something that I found very laughable the part about homosexuals going to jail in V for Vendetta because everyone knows that TODAY the ones who go in prison are not the gays, it's the ones who talks against the lack of conscience of exhibitionist and outrageously transgressive gays.
Quote from: b
People who talk against gays and jews (zionists) are targetted now.
Welcome to reality:

New law means anti-gay comments could lead to seven years in jail
By STEVE DOUGHTY and JAMES SLACK - More by this author » Last updated at 22:18pm on 8th October 2007
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=486452&in_page_id=1770

you get only 5 years for rape. This is the new reality of HATE CRIMES. This is the new facism. Outrageously provocative and trasngressive gays can parade in the street and express hatred towards christianity, yet christians could never the same towards gays, they would be arested. See the double standard! Hate Crimes are one-sided and they protect the perverse behaviors, not the moral ones.

Quote from: b
Do the homos have to be protected anymore? They have their own "B'nai B'rith"! They became the gay lobby, same as civil liberties lobby and jewish lobby. Gays did the same as the Zionists did. They share the same 'victimist communitarism'.
This is widely known, even in France. If you followed the French news in French, you would have known that.

Quote from: b
Some people only see the anti-fascist battles of the past, we have to fight the anti-fascists battles of the present times.
This is true. I refer to so-called hate crimes, a new fascism that punishes criticism of certain groups such as jews (zionists) and gays.

Quote from: b
We are being fed this PC propaganda: "The Pope does not have the right to be different, gays have the right to be different. We have to accept gays and condemn the Pope." This is a caricature, but it expresses my point clearly. In fact I don't especially agree with the Pope, I sure don't!
Quote from: b
Gayness has become an obligatory difference, whereas the difference of a person like the Pope is denied.
I mean: if you look at the medias, gays are presented as a lifestyle that we are obliged to accept, in the name of the "right to be different" (PC and "tolerance"). But the Pope is denied this right to be different, the medias and the PC thniking gives him no right to be against homosexuality, condoms, etc. Shouldn't everybody have a right to be different? Why one kind of difference leads to jail for hate crime and another kind of difference can do whatever it likes to transgress and provoque christians?

As DonaldJHunt said:
"What baklavatsky pointed out about Hitler's inner circle is well-attested and accepted historical truth."

Offline Tigersoap

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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 10:49:00 AM »
Quote from: baklavatsky
I think this is being healthy to feel disgust at same-sex kisses and sexual acts. This is not a behavior that leads to life, it leads to death (non-reproductive). With all the chemicals in our food and environment, there'll be more gays in the future, and humanity may have problems to reproduce itself if one day half the people are gays. Self-evident truth.
Excuse me but this is really homophobic and insulting to people with a different sexual orientations from yours.
I understand that there are many twist and turns concerning sexuality that may be use for a specific agenda but what you said there is deeply disturbing.

I really don't think it's "healthy", to reject homosexuals, on the contrary, it shows your deep bias against a different sexuality. You may not accept these differences, that's your call but you seem a bit obsessed about it.

Moreover I can't fathom why you think that to have children leads to life when most of the population can't even raise them properly and just provides future zombies.


Quote from: baklavatsky
Men like young sexual partners, especially gay men. This is a widely known fact.
And this is a widely known fact that homophobic persons will try to bundle up homosexuality and paedophilia as to provoke negative reactions and hatred.



Quote from: baklavatsky
I mean: if you look at the medias, gays are presented as a lifestyle that we are obliged to accept, in the name of the "right to be different" (PC and "tolerance"). But the Pope is denied this right to be different, the medias and the PC thniking gives him no right to be against homosexuality, condoms, etc. Shouldn't everybody have a right to be different? Why one kind of difference leads to jail for hate crime and another kind of difference can do whatever it likes to transgress and provoque christians?
You're a bit contradicting yourself there.

Because this society is not "normal", neither is the pope or the extravagant gays, we are all machines and under the psychopathic spell. It's all a big game and we're told to be on one side or the other.
I think you lost your way there.

What's your views on the numerous cases of priests accused of paedophilia ?
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Offline Alice

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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 12:15:56 PM »
Quote from: baklavatsky
I think this is being healthy to feel disgust at same-sex kisses and sexual acts. This is not a behavior that leads to life, it leads to death (non-reproductive). With all the chemicals in our food and environment, there'll be more gays in the future, and humanity may have problems to reproduce itself if one day half the people are gays. Self-evident truth.

Quote from: b
In some circles Bondarev describes as being more and more popular in Russia, gays who express a healthy disgust or rejection of sadomasochistic practices and other perversions, such as zoophilia, pedophilia and others, are being shown the door.
I speak about those sick circles that are getting more and more popular, that Bondarev describes.

Quote from: baklavatsky
Men like young sexual partners, especially gay men. This is a widely known fact.
First, I must say I find many of your expressions here deeply disturbing
and coming through your own blur opinion about the gay popularity,
not through the facts, and mentioning people who thinks the same as you doesn't make "the fact" of the whole thing.
What about men liking young girls, especially heterosexual men?
That group is not of your concerns, it doesn't bother you?
You find it smaller than the gay group?

And, just something to think about: what about all those gay men
which are too ashamed to come up to the open, to even admit themselves they are gays,
because of the fear of judgmental persons, quoting Pope, for example,
comparing them with "road to death", so they choose heterosexual relationships in which none wins,
maybe turning into abusive husbands, cause of all the conflict inside of them which is raising,
maybe even looking for young girls, whose physiognomy more looks like man's?

Or is it then solution for the whole thing simply to forbid the very existence of gay people,
which will then be treated accordingly, through the law of some kind of execution at the first sign of it?
But how will we know? Maybe they will hide their true nature and then will end up
in society with even more sexual deviations then now?

OK... This is just a play-scenario, which I made for the purpose of drawing a road
where your kind of thinking can lead us. And if you say it's too extreme,
than I can use your own "argument" - it's a one of the possible ways, therefore it's "a widely known fact".

There are lot of bad things happening in today's world, but I don't believe the solution for it is to
point fingers into certain groups just because of their sexual preferences, no matter how "wrong"
they may seem to somebody else. And it's very easy to pick someone and then analyze him/her,
until insisting only on the "bad" characteristics of that person. Of course they have it, everyone does.
But that FACT doesn't make the rest of the world population any more superior than that perticular person.
And it certanly doesn't mean that "corecting" that one will solve the society's deviations in general.

You're simply angry because of things happening you find to be "wrong" and trying to find a solution for it
through dealing with the consequences, which is impossible. You need to find the real cause.
Maybe to learn more about the specific subject, to wider your views about the whole matter,
circle after circle, in effort of finding the REAL FACTS, the REAL CAUSE for those "wrongs".
Just a suggestion...
Alice waited till the eyes appeared, and then nodded. `It's no use speaking to it,' she thought, `till its ears have come, or at least one of them.'

Lewis Carroll

Offline Ruth

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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 03:12:45 PM »
Quote from: baklavatsky
We are being fed this PC propaganda: "The Pope does not have the right to be different, gays have the right to be different. We have to accept gays and condemn the Pope."
This is ridiculous.  We are not supposed to be 'condemning' anybody, where ever they are coming from.  To condemn is not to understand where a person, or even a group comes from, even if they are in error.  This will never help them.

Quote from: baklavatsky
This is a caricature, but it expresses my point clearly. In fact I don't especially agree with the Pope, I sure don't!
Yeah, well, it's shocking to note that the Pope actually 'represents' (albeit after as many as 2 millenia of STS manipulation) what Jesus was all about.  Now, he was really 'different'.  So much so that STS just had to jump on that particular bandwagon pretty quick.  I don't think the person known as Jesus was ever very far from 'trouble', as STS would represent.

You need to stop being so centered on the 'now' and realise that it doesn't matter which or what time you experience, or have experienced in the past, there is and always has been (at least for quite a while) STS control and manipulation.   There is nothing new or astonishing about it.  You will find it under different names throughout time.  And just when you think you've got it 'pegged', it changes shape.
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Offline Ruth

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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2007, 03:21:56 PM »
Quote from: baklavatsky
I think this is being healthy to feel disgust at same-sex kisses and sexual acts. This is not a behavior that leads to life, it leads to death (non-reproductive). With all the chemicals in our food and environment, there'll be more gays in the future, and humanity may have problems to reproduce itself if one day half the people are gays. Self-evident truth.
I'm not so sure that you can differentiate between STO and STS that easily.

Some reproductive activity (how much - and may it even be ALL, on this planet) is STS?  Maybe physical creation isn't as important as spiritual "creation" - what ever that is.
No doubt, in this as in other things, nature has very definite rules for her guidance, but these rules can only be ascertained by the most careful observation.  Florence Nightingale
The co-operation of the many will always beat the competition of the few.

Offline anart

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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2007, 03:37:56 AM »
Quote from: tigersoap
Excuse me but this is really homophobic and insulting to people with a different sexual orientations from yours.
For what it's worth, I really don't think there is any reason to excuse yourself at all.  blaklavatsky has evidenced hatred (disgust) based on ignorance and an astonishingly strong emotional identification with his homophobia.  This points to deeper issues that very likely are linked to his own sexuality, but for the purposes of this forum, that may not be the primary point.  For the purposes of this forum, the point is that he is presenting opinion as fact - and making statements that make other forum members uncomfortable.  These statements, and other statements he's made recently on other threads, are rather strong indications that this is not the forum for blaklavatsky.