Author Topic: Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?  (Read 3691 times)

Jupiter Jefferson

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I came across this today, while studying Hitler's Mein Kampf (or whoever's total work it is).
Thought immediately of how this puts a pause in one's embracing of OP theory. A pause, because this is real example of how (a subjective kind of) "objectifying" toward others in itself can open a "portal" unto evil.
Our own negation of identical and natural potential in others serving in this case, our own active negativity, and possibly too often: a genuine resistance to mercy. miserecordia: hearfelt 'sense' (meaning both) in our response to misery. A shared experience upon which we can certainly all agree (except perhaps for indeed, glad patriots of this day and age...who get me thinking to hell with theology: show no bloody mercy towards the games of such OPs. But there is always that possibility: that a source of absolute mercy calls one on to active solidarity with all beings, beyond the scope of problem/response straight into transendent redemption. A real one. (but who knows, maybe to hell with this bs).

At any rate, here is Mr. Hitler's quote:
(In reference to Social Democrats who he saw as manipulators opposed to interests of German nation):

"I wrestled in my innermost soul: 'are these people human, worthy to belong to a great nation?'

A painful question; for if it is answered in the affirmative, the struggle for my nationality (or for gnostic: self-realization) really ceases to be worth the hardships andsacfificeswhich the best of us have to make for the sake of such scum. "

I don't know whether the soul looking out from it's prophylactic castle upon hellraisers is a sufficient form of solidarity. The other choice, I do admit, is rife with suffering and a certain 'martyrdom'. In name of compassion I don't know how this works yet. I have ruled out so many bad dealers on a temporary basis, and yet they DO tend somehow to come back again, knocking...and I don't believe they've left with nothing. I really can't say yet that I regret my 'involvement'. It has often all 'felt' awful...but as for the action towards generally miserable people, I can't say which way is best in terms of 'our', ....'our'....upliftment.

At least in this case, we see the danger of making animals out of humans from a defensive posture. Becoming nothing more here than a form of sham-martyr's negligence, or clever passive agression. In interests of an IMMUNITY that may well not exist.(?)

I have not found such prophylactic immunity yet, I know that much. But there are times too much of misery's company has nearly done me in. Know not whether in soul, body or both: but solidarity (if that's what this crazy effort at openness has been) has come at quite a cost.
But then, we all gotta die of something, and live for something in meantime, something beyond space, time and love-the-lie.
here lies the rubber, thus far undone, and maybe in proactive interests of (all) creation?

Sorry I write from enigma: from a totally internal basis by which I survive the onslaught of all love's madness.

[Moderator: Merged your other thread post with this one to assist other readers.]

Sorry. Forgot to include second part of Mein Kampf quote shedding darkness on this OP question. Hitler says about Democratic Socialists (many of whom he later discovers are indeed Jewish) who he considered manipulative enemies of German nation:

I wrestled in my innermost soul:
"Are these people human, worthy to belong to a great nation?"

"A painful question; for if it is answered in the affirmative, the struggle for my nationality (or gnostic self-realization, liberation from OP-dualism?) really ceases to be worth the hardships and sacrifices which the best of us have to make for the sake of such scum."

*(this is part of quote I forgot to add:) "If answered in the negative, our nation is pitifully poor in HUMAN BEINGS.


So Hitler's negative alternative is indeed that this scum of the earth, causing us to suffer so much, are NOT HUMAN and so not worth our effort, solidarity, even mercy:
In fact, he chooses to eliminate these people from his midst. To seek NULLIFICATION OF SCUM who are NOT HUMAN TO BEGIN WITH.

Hitler's prophylactic approach spells out all the real reasons for our reservations towards this OP theory. Understandably so, and most I think would agree.

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2006, 12:50:04 PM »
Let's examine your understandable objections.

Quote from: Jupiter Jefferson
I came across this today, while studying Hitler's Mein Kampf (or whoever's total work it is).
Thought immediately of how this puts a pause in one's embracing of OP theory. A pause, because this is real example of how (a subjective kind of) "objectifying" toward others in itself can open a "portal" unto evil.
Mr. Hitler certainly has claimed that his views were "objective". We know by his actions that they were actually psychopathic. I guess if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc. there can be no doubt, but perhaps it is not always so obvious on the surface. Your reasoning seems to be that Hitler objectified others, and was a psychopath. OP theory also "objectifies" others and ergo must be at least suspect. Can there be, however, a real comparison between these two "objectifications"? Let's continue...

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Our own negation of identical and natural potential in others serving in this case, our own active negativity, and possibly too often: a genuine resistance to mercy. miserecordia: hearfelt 'sense' (meaning both) in our response to misery. A shared experience upon which we can certainly all agree (except perhaps for indeed, glad patriots of this day and age...who get me thinking to hell with theology: show no bloody mercy towards the games of such OPs. But there is always that possibility: that a source of absolute mercy calls one on to active solidarity with all beings, beyond the scope of problem/response straight into transendent redemption. A real one...
In the above quote you seem to be associating the "objectification" of OP theory with a complete abscence of compassion and empathy. In fact, you seem to be associating it with an attitude of "Show no bloody mercy to the games of such OP's". And you associate what amounts to the way of the psychopath with "negation of identical and natural potential in others serving in this case, our own active negativity".

I would like to express that I agree that OP theory does negate identical potential in others but it does not negate natural potential. The two are not the same, and that is an important distinction. So then your disagreement amounts to the opnion (if I am correct) that if we negate identicle potential in others we are in danger of psychopathy. In other words, we either level humanity to a common denominator or we have no compassion, emphathy or mercy towards others. We are then no better than Hitler, as Hitler's crimes stemmed from assuming people do not have the same potential as human beings.

This leads to the perspective that the view affirming the uniformity of all human potential is a compassionate view. There were other psychopaths, however, that preached such uniformity; Marx, Lenin, Stalin among them. Ponerology, which is a system of objectification founded on principles of mercy to our fellows, based its conclusions on the complete opposite premise: that belief that humans have identical potential can lead to the perpetuation of not only psychopathic scenarios but also collective pathocracies.

Deeper introspection on OP theory would, furthermore, reveal that it is a view that promotes mercy and compassion when we do not jump to doctrinal conclusions. It recognizes that although we may all as human beings use the words empathy and compassion, we do not all share the same experiences associated with these words. People that feel deeply and empathically need principles of organization to form constructuve social structures, but they do not need laws, religions, externalized ethical lists for harmony in such, and they do not need authoritative imperatives to keep them in line.

People that feel in a more instinctive manner do need these things. They need their customs and traditions and externalized presentations of conduct. They do not regard rigidly structured culture as simply an expression of solidarity, but as a necessity without which society falls apart into chaos and anarchy. Individualized humans, on the other hand, have the potential to be true anarchists in the philosophical sense, as they can learn and evolve to be independent of external modes designed to keep them in line. They can work and play together because their sense of right comes from within, even if it may need to grow and mature and earn their integrity based individuality. Even so, the impulse of "inner right" is there in an organic manner for these people, and that is NOT true for everyone.

Many people consider what is right simply that which serves the instinctual needs organically inherent in all humans (including the need to form bonds with other humans). And since all humans are social beings to one degree or another, they accept rules and laws and authority as "right" because it preserves them from stronger others who would otherwise threaten them and those close to them.

The difference is that for some people harmony comes from within and guides external behaviour, and for others harmony is a necessity that needs to be imposed from without to keep stability within.

I do not agree with OP theory for ideological reasons. OP theory simply affirmed my own life-long observations. And consistently when I doubted the sanctity of the variety in human potential, I payed a dear price. My observations have led to a merciful and compassionate understanding of the differences in potential in others, and to an affirmation that this is also a realistic understanding of the complex and natural spectrum of all human potential.

As such, I have no inclination to write my own Kampf. I notice in your quote of Herr Hitler that he denied a group of people their humanity and equated them with "scum". OP theory neither denies the humanity of ANY human being nor considers OP's in derogatory terms. The word "Organic Portal" may sound derogatory on the surface, but it simply describes a tendency of this portion of human potential to be manipulated and controlled (something we are seeing a lot in the modern world).

Differences in environment CANNOT absolutely account for all differences in human behaviour and disposition. There are genetic factors, and these are not racial. External appearance has nothing to do with these differences.

Before I go on, I'd like you to consider that there was a religious movement that came to be called Christianity that equated the Divine with Love and preached the values of compassion and understanding. And yet, the attrocities commited in the name of Christian divinity and even Christian "mercy" make Hitler look like a flower child. Psychopaths like Hitler, the Bolsheviks and the Christian Inquisitions proclaimed radically different things, yet all revelled in blood, conquest and torture.

On the other hand, the recognition of inherent differences in human potential is not a sign of psychopathy. On the contrary, it is the conclusion of observation. Haven't you noticed that when you admit people are different and respect them for it, and act accordingly, and with compassion to yourself and others, conflicts are much less than when you try to put everyone at the same common denominator. I have. To me OP theory provides a realistic context within which I can respect others for what they are and not for what I want them to be. I can adapt to circumstance and chart my path being true to myself, and at the same time allowing non-psychopathic others to be true to their own potential, whatever than may be.

IMO the most potential for lack of mercy exists when we try to force others into identification with our objectives. Having such a "levelling" view works against the empathic nature of some people because they either have to conform to standards that they can never own, or seek to force others to conform to their own standards. Contrary to being "unmerciful" OP theory is, thus, both realistic and the natural outcome of a compassionate outlook.

Offline Stargazer

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2006, 01:04:30 PM »
Quote from: Jupiter Jefferson
I came across this today, while studying Hitler's Mein Kampf (or whoever's total work it is).
Hmm... setting up an associative linkage perhaps?

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Thought immediately of how this puts a pause in one's embracing of OP theory. A pause, because this is real example of how (a subjective kind of) "objectifying" toward others in itself can open a "portal" unto evil.
Except the possibility of the OP scenario has nothing to do with "objectifying" others. Since it is virtually impossible to determine for sure who is, or is not, an OP, how does one "objectify" them?

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I don't know whether the soul looking out from it's prophylactic castle upon hellraisers is a sufficient form of solidarity.
"Prophylatic castle"? An unusual choice of words.

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At least in this case, we see the danger of making animals out of humans from a defensive posture.
Who is "we"? Are why are you suggesting that "making animals out of humans" is the heart of the matter? That is not the case.

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In interests of an IMMUNITY that may well not exist.
Immunity? Are you now making associations with disease? Psychopathy is the disease. OPs and psychopaths are different kettles of fish.

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I have not found such prophylactic immunity yet, I know that much.
Hmm... a second reference to "prophylatic".

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Sorry I write from enigma: from a totally internal basis by which I survive the onslaught of all love's madness.
IMO your "internal" basis seems to lack objectivity and consideration for who others who might read your posts.

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So Hitler's negative alternative is indeed that this scum of the earth, causing us to suffer so much, are NOT HUMAN and so not worth our effort, solidarity, even mercy:
In fact, he chooses to eliminate these people from his midst. To seek NULLIFICATION OF SCUM who are NOT HUMAN TO BEGIN WITH.
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Hitler's prophylactic approach
And now associating Hitler with "prophylatic"... your post smacks of Neuro-Linguistics. In any case, Hitler's approach was not defensive. It was aggressive. He intended to wipe out those who had been deemed "sub-human". OPs are fellow humanity, or more precisely, a distinct type of humanity that transcends all races, nationalities and ethnicity.

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spells out all the real reasons for our reservations towards this OP theory.
"our" reservations? While it could be said via certain esoteric traditions that man is "legion", or a multiplicity of personality fragments (little "I"'s), I doubt this is what you are referring to here. I suspect more of a sadly transparent attempt to influence the reader into thinking you have the opinion of the "silent majority" on your side.

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Understandably so, and most I think would agree.
I think most would find your post somewhat of a veiled innuendo... but maybe that's just me.
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now." - W.H. Murray (usually attributed to Goethe).

Offline Stargazer

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2006, 12:44:29 AM »
Jake: I've moved your comments to a new thread in the Conspiracy Theory forum, seeing as they do not relate to the subject of OPs.
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now." - W.H. Murray (usually attributed to Goethe).

Offline Ruth

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2006, 01:49:34 AM »
Quote from: Jupiter Jefferson
Hitler's prophylactic approach spells out all the real reasons for our reservations towards this OP theory. Understandably so, and most I think would agree.
Well, I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree, mainly because I'm not exactly sure what point you are talking about.  Your language is indeed very descriptive ('flowery'?) and I personally have a great degree of difficulty when it comes to reading styles like this.  The question in me usually arrises, well, what are they actually trying to say, lol, and why can't people just use plain English?!? lol.

You did mention OP theory.  I'm not sure there is one.  There are a lot of ideas about this topic - not all of which I agree with and some that even seek to link ideas which may or may not end up being a good thing...  Especially if these idea are just beginning to be explored.

Hitler may be a fine example of a 'souled' individual who deliberately chose the 'dark' side.  He may even be a psychopath, or perhaps not, but someone with a mental problem.

Mein Kampf is probably a good book to read if you want to understand how a person thinks and see how their thinking influenced what they did with a nation.  Its strange, but Mein Kampf seems to be the only book written by a world leader predating his idiology 'taking over' a country.  I wonder if there aren't a lot of similarities happening in America now.  Not that I expect Bush to write a book (unless it's a child's book about a goat perhaps), but many of his administation have.  Perhaps more than one?  I wonder if this is a 'sypmtom' of the degree of pathocracy about to be 'delivered'.
No doubt, in this as in other things, nature has very definite rules for her guidance, but these rules can only be ascertained by the most careful observation.  Florence Nightingale
The co-operation of the many will always beat the competition of the few.

Jupiter Jefferson

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2006, 05:01:42 AM »
As to Hitler quote I submitted yesterday, I will respond to thoughtful answers posted here, along with some erroneous suggestions.
I'll clear first the erroneous stuff,since it's the last one I read and fresh in my memory.
The following is addressed to Ryan's entry:

1) Prophylactic is a term Ms Laura Knight-Jadczyk uses. I understand what she means by it in association with psychopathy. In fact, when I combine it into my own phrase "prophylcatic castle" it is no pretentious fluorish, but a reference to two major images Laura uses in dealing with this subject. Laura uses the term "castle" with analogy to protection over against psychopathy. From our soul-castle (of integrity, and with increasing objectivity)  we may look out "a window into hell" upon maniacs who wish to us. These are Laura's images, and I believe I've read them many times in a book which I place over my heart when approaching the cosmos at night during trying times...by all means, 'we' would indeed do well to look up both these words in Laura's writings, and (in case of prophylactic) even in some Signs articles.
Sorry...no domineering man stuff going on here "objectively" speaking, unless 'we' need to see it, and I think, rather humorlessly.

2) I am not capable of lording over anyone with neurolinguistics. In addition I am both disappointed and suspicious of Chomsky's skillful usage, coupled as it is with a soft take on AIPAC, Zionists and their impact US-Israeli policy.

3) I actually have a strong gravitation towards the logic of OP theory. It may well BE the most compassionate AND rational approach we can have towards everyone. I did not indicate a strong opposition at all to this theory. I described my indecision on this issue.

Hitler's crazy dichotomy serves as a useful contrast to any legitimate approach one could take towards the OP issue. 'Most' compassionate and rational people, it is certain, do not want to end up doing any such thing as Hitler did. It would be 'flowery' indeed, to say less than that.
Again, sorry...no imperious demand for group think. Which is again to say, no 'western manish domineering.' Just antiHolocaust, and from that obvious perspective, no question as to total authorship of Mein Kampf has anything to do with shruggin off Nazi responsibility, or doing any other con business you're wondering about. Point of posting Hitler's dehumanization of the other is as example of what OP theory can not be legitimately. ANd in raising this spector, I have not rejected legitimate approach to OP theory.
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Response to Esoquest:
"Legitimate approach to OP theory" is what you are delineating. I agree that all these distinctions can be made to avoid the pitfall of Hitler's dehumanization. I also thought ahead of time of important point you're making: that OP theory does not negate anyone's "humanness." And for the theory to prove true, it would indeed also concede the equal potential in all.

A pause for Hitler's murderous blunder seems warranted, only in so far as it shows where not to go with OP theory.
I agree with your point: that reason and compassion can substatiate OP theory.
It seems obvious my indecision, and caution, was not lost on you. That my point was not to reject OP theory, or suggest what most others think. Only to use Hitler quote as example of what no rational and compassionate person wants to 'think' of do if/when embracing OP theory.
You get this, and your answer is constructive and full of considerations. More than happy to make use of them. Suspect 'most' would indeed find your response more pertenant to subject and issues raised after all by real dangers inherent to Hitler approach.

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Ruth: always cool to read your many posts. Not intending to be flowery. Just gauche. ANd yes:
Sorry, as we know that is a domineering man thing. 'We' are hopeless, but hopefully, not humorless. For your interests and sure many others: it would have been more useful to only write in Hitler's quote without the musings on (actually?) deadly serious issues.
Prophylactic castle: it is not mad talk for anyone reading Laura at all. I pray with her concepts against my chest. When there's no flowery language left.



 

 


2) In contrast to the Esoquest response, which raises so many other

Offline Jake Tassell

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2006, 02:57:39 PM »
Quote from: Ryan
Quote from: Jupiter Jefferson
I came across this today, while studying Hitler's Mein Kampf (or whoever's total work it is).
Hmm... setting up an associative linkage perhaps?.....

.... I think most would find your post somewhat of a veiled innuendo... but maybe that's just me.
My posts might not have been directly related to the subject of OP's, but it does relate to your above comments, and is relevant to the general air of the conversation. However, I'll continue in the Conspiracies section if that's your preference...

Offline Mr. Premise

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2006, 02:57:47 PM »
Prophylactic is a legitimate word from "prophylaxis"  for "protection" or "prevention,"  I think.

Jupiter Jefferson

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2006, 05:25:17 PM »
Since I agreed with Esoquests comments on OP theory, at least let me state more acurately what it is that I agree with.
As esoquest says: Op theory "does negate identical potential in others but it does not negate natural potential."

This meaning that while OP theory accepts all of us as human, there is a varying potential in each "entity", based upon their evolution. Some of us, OP theory asserts, are still at the level of almost total automatons. I've seen this happen: gotta wind em up to make em work. Or to give a f-k.
I agree that there must be a compassionate and rational way to deal with such folk. I don't mean to distinguish myself boldly from OP status either. But I've met the psychopath, and "as for me and my house", I will not partake of his lot.
Prophylactic castle, and my only ambiguity on this subject is:
sometimes, when I've opened it I"ve had good luck messing with effed up folk. So I am no OP puritan. I watch for that too, which is just another automaton's nation.  

I've seen considerable turnaround in jackasses, though not so much in psychopaths. I am just after literally completing an exorcism last week, wherein bodily healing took place so, I'm coming from experience. An exorcism not in traditional angel/demon sense, but in this case (perhaps lending actual support to OP theory) a partial healing of a human being, who's actions and attitudes are nevertheless, still not all that different from the 'force of negation' which has so long inhabited it.
The rest is up to this person. At any rate, I identify with the experiences of Laura Knight-Jadczyk to an extreme degree. Each and every line of her autobiography.

Offline Stargazer

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Many resrvtns about OP theory spelled out in 1 Mein Kampf quote?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2006, 10:02:42 PM »
Quote from: jake tassell
Quote from: Ryan
Quote from: Jupiter Jefferson
I came across this today, while studying Hitler's Mein Kampf (or whoever's total work it is).
Hmm... setting up an associative linkage perhaps?.....

.... I think most would find your post somewhat of a veiled innuendo... but maybe that's just me.
My posts might not have been directly related to the subject of OP's, but it does relate to your above comments
How? (Please reply in the other thread so as to keep this one on topic).
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now." - W.H. Murray (usually attributed to Goethe).