Attention Units & STS Feeding Frenzies

13 Twirling Triskeles · May 3, 2016

Awoke today (2 May 2016) with the realization of just how STS all the feeding really is in our STS world. In fact, I could say that STS is defined by Feeding & Eating and looking for more food to eat.

And it’s striking me . . . shocking me actually . . . how basic and base this entire STS-Eating-Feeding dynamic is.

It makes me want to STOP!!! Stop my feeding frenzy. Stop feeding the predator . . . stop feeding the machine. To the point where I feel hesitant to be around people. Not so much because of others needing to Feed-Eat. But because I don’t want to do this to others. It feels repellant and repulsive. I don’t want to do it anymore.

I was a member of a cult from 1977-1985 — 9 years. We used the term ‘Attention Units’ — defined by the founder of that group as the most valuable energy we have at our disposal. That our world was about giving and getting attention units. The point of it all was how to give and pay undivided attention to others. And paying attention was defined as actively listening. Listening to others with our full attention. Not running thoughts through our minds while pretending to listen. Not thinking of what we wanted to say (i.e., getting attention units from others) but giving attention units to others so they felt heard. Witnessing in other words. That what was missing for most people was that they rarely felt heard.

I’m seeing now that I adopted that attitude because it made sense to me. I approached life — people, animals, plants, everything that exists -- with that attitude. I believed that what I could Do is to give attention units (energy) to others by paying attention to them . . . by listening . . . by witnessing . . . by being a Fair Witness.

Oddly, however, I didn’t need to turn it around and seek attention from others because it was actually enough to just give attention. Somehow by paying attention it seemed to also feed me in a paradoxical way. It doesn’t make much sense that the act of giving to others would also give to me as well, but there it is. Because it did do that. I can’t explain it.

When I left that group, I sort of threw the baby out with the bathwater. I stopped using the principles and lessons I’d learned and went back to my old ways of relating to others. IOW, I started seeking attention from others and stopped giving attention to others in a conscientious, purposeful way.

And I’m seeing now that it’s become important to me to again become present and attentive and actually listen and make an effort to understand what others are feeling and communicating. I feel some inner urge and need to understand. I can’t seem to just act as if I get it. I have to genuinely get it or it feels like I’m cheating.

The upshot of all this is what? What’s the take-away from this realization . . . from this shock?

What I’m getting is that I want to return to my former attitude and protocol of giving and paying attention to others rather than seeking attention from others. The truth is that I DON’T really need attention FROM others. But I DO feel this need to give attention TO others.

I don’t feel an urge or need to be fed. But I do feel an urge and need to feed others via paying attention. It’s not really a 2-way street. I don’t need a return flow. I only believed I did. But now I see that’s a lie. It’s not necessary at all. I only thought so because I was using an accounting system like capitalism thinking. IOW, I give this in order to get that. But that approach feels so manipulative and covert to me. It feels disingenuous (not genuinely honest) and reptilianish. It’s a perversion of the concepts of fairness and justice. It’s like thinking I’m owed something in exchange for what I give. But truly, I’m the one who owes everything. Nothing is owed to me.

I realize none of this makes any sense on some level. I can’t make it make sense even to me. It’s totally stupid, counter-intuitive, illogical and unreasonable.

I’m still in a state of shock about this realization so I’m not really sure why I’m posting it here except to get some feedback perhaps. Because it’s sort of turned my world upside down and I feel a little lost . . . like I just made an exit off the road most travelled and I’m in new territory and I don’t recognize this terrain. Where are the signposts for how to navigate this new path? It’s making me cry now. I’m not sure what to do . . . what to make of it. I can’t connect any dots. I feel like I’m inside out.

Any suggestions? Advice? Feedback? Further reading materials?

Thank you. :)

P.S. Am I confusing things here? Asking for help and feedback somehow doesn’t seem the same as wanting or asking for attention? I don’t know why it feels different, but it does.

PPS: I was re-reading Madame De Salzman’s First Initiation . . . wondering if she & I were talking about the same thing. But no. It doesn’t appear to me to be so.

However, in that thread, Buddy wrote something that did seem somewhat similar to my own realization. This is what he said:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28065.15.html

Thread: The First Initiation and Gurdjieff and Christianity

Buddy - Page 2 - Reply #29 - March 20 said:
It doesn't seem to mean that I am any better at understanding or expressing certain things, but I can see my own workings with some detachment no matter what seems to be going on. In fact, yesterday I had an entire day when I didn't care about, want or need anything for myself. Everything exists for the use and benefit of someone else. There was the fact of it and the feel of it to be true. Other than my basic needs, which also includes job hunting, all my attention is on doing whatever I can to make easier, the lives of the people in the realm of my immediate responsibility, which includes my wife, mom and Dad - as if that is the most important thing right now. I actually feel how important this is, no matter the cost to me in terms of time, effort, or whatever. I came away with a new and unexpected understanding of the concept 'serve yourself by serving others'. It seems when you can get a moment and see through or see around the false self, you see that there is nothing of you requiring so much attention anyway. That leaves "the you in others" who require help and support to get through this life.

Thank you Buddy for saying it so much better than I could myself.

13 Twirling Triskeles · May 3, 2016

Petty Predator

Noticed something. But it could just be a stupid idea I had.

Last year I posted about feeling more connected to the Network whenever I was actually Logged into the Forum. Even whilst reading others’ posts . . . whether or not I posted anything myself.

A bunch of stuff in my 3-D reality to handle during the past several months. So I took the easy way out. Just read the Forum in defalt mode (Blue mode). Didn’t log onto Forum (Green mode). Didn’t post anything.

The longer I didn’t log on, the easier it was to resist logging on. How hard is it really to perform a two-step process to log on? Not hard at all. So what’s with my resistance-avoidance?

Today I saw another face of the predator. A petty face. The other faces I’ve seen were far uglier, scarier . . . more reprehensible & downright repellant and repulsive. I’ve already described those faces in previous posts.

But this face totally surprised me by it’s seemingly innocent persona-mask. It was the face of the Lazy Predator. Couldn’t even be bothered to perform a few simple keystrokes. Convinced me it didn’t really matter whether or not to post on the Forum. And there were several posts others made . . . 2 or 3 especially that Joe made — as well as others’ replies to his posts — that so moved and touched me deeply. Did I mention that? Did I acknowledge that? Did I support that? No, I did not. I just let it slide on by. Lazy? No, not even lazy. Downright rude actually. Boo! :(

Then I read a post by Muxel . . . on which I did feel impelled to add my 2 cents.

Then the Lazy Predator struck again. But this time it sort of backfired. On the Lazy predator itself. Because I was too lazy to log off. So I stayed logged on to the Forum. And continued reading while being logged on.

Usually I shut-down my computer at the end of the day. But this time, I just put it to sleep while remaining logged onto the Forum . . . for several days.

This morning (2 May 2016), I awoke with a realization about STS-STO and Feeding dynamics which I posted here —

“Attention Units & STS Feeding Frenzies”

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,41625.0.html

After typing that post, I had another realization. Well, a crazy idea maybe, but it feels like a realization. More of a connecting of dots I guess.

And this is what I realized:

That staying logged onto the Forum keeps me connected to the Network and the Group in some weird way that being logged off disconnects me from the Group.

Staying logged on . . . virtually connected . . . has some impact and effect on my psychic world . . . holding space for me to change and have more realizations and seeing things differently. As if staying logged on is creating a type of Virtual Strategic Enclosure that protects me by surrounding me — like a Faraday Cage — preventing the outer predator from intruding into my inner world somehow. Making it possible for me to more easily spot my own personal inner predator’s ploys.

Does anyone else notice this effect?

And I was thinking about the latest C’s Session (16 April 2016) about the crystals. And how having crystals from the Chateaux seems to be a similar sort of protection & connection to the Network.

Cutting to the Chase — my realization was . . .

Being logged on is a high-tech cyber-telepathic link up with the Chateaux, the Network and other Forum members.

The crystals are a more organic low-tech telepathic link-up.

Is this all too Woo-Woo?

That the magnitude of the full group is quantitatively and qualitatively so much stronger than just one single person’s strength. That the full forum acts as a Wonder-Womb. Like a safety net. A safety network. A virtual safe space.

So I’m doing my own little experiment. I’m remaining logged on continually. Maybe the connection is acting on me like the Iodine Protocol acts on us and activates us?

And maybe I’m just nuts! :)

What I cannot contest is the experience of feeling incredibly more energetic and ready for anything. Not invincible . . . but very inwardly strong, grounded, & excited.

And that’s all for now.

Buddy · May 3, 2016

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
Any suggestions? Advice? Feedback? Further reading materials?

While you were in that organization you refer to as a 'cult', you didn't perhaps ask what is the material/physical/neuroscience basis of attention units did you? And please don't link me to anything that gives conceptual descriptions or discussions about them because I've read everything I could find. Rather, I'm asking about the physical objects called the attention units themselves. I don't think there is any objective basis because the written stuff can be traced to 1952 and the neuroscience doesn't start until about 1959 and that deals with a population of cells in the auditory cortex of cats. That's not the same thing as far as I can tell. See:

Science. 1959 May 8;129(3358):1279-80.
Attention units in the auditory cortex.
HUBEL DH, HENSON CO, RUPERT A, GALAMBOS R.
Abstract
In the course of examining single unit responses from the cortex of unrestrained and unanesthetized cats, we have come upon a population of cells that appears to be sensitive to auditory stimuli only if the cat "pays attention" to the sound source. We have described these responses, since they have not been previously reported and since they illustrate an important difference between the information which can be gleaned from experiments of this type and that obtained in the usual "acute" microelectrode experiment.
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13658956

"Attention" Units in the Auditory Cortex
Author(s): David H. Hubel, Calvin O. Henson, Allen Rupert, Robert Galambos
Source: Science, New Series, Vol. 129, No. 3358 (May 8, 1959), pp. 1279-1280
Published by: American Association for the Advancement of Science
_http://hubel.med.harvard.edu/papers/HubelHenson1959Science.pdf

So, here's what I'm thinking. You're on a search for meaning and purpose in life like so many other people are, but you're spending a great deal of time in the conceptual and imaginary realms of thought and you're probably burning up the energy your body can produce almost as fast as it can produce it and it's all mostly feeding the mind's need to keep churning without solving problems and probably overworking and running out the life of the brain's neurons.

Life doesn't have to be this complicated. Spend more time focusing on the groundwork involved in meeting your physical, practical and functional needs and spend some time limiting your mental activity to just the functional, practical level of life. Let some of that excess energy be used by the body and its intelligence in order to process out old emotional programs and tensions. When you must communicate with people IRL, don't worry about 'attention units.' Just try to keep attention flows balanced: give some attention, receive some attention, don't tire out other people's attention and don't let them tire out yours. Engage with some physical activity that doesn't require much conceptual activity and when you feel refreshed, read the material that's most useful to you for improving and upgrading relationships with others. If there is any "graduation" possible in this life, it's probably based on mastering the simple lessons first.

When we stop racing against time to discover the secrets of the universe and stop working so hard to find meaning and purpose outside of us, then we can find lots of meaning and purpose in just living and doing what we are involved in right now and with what is in front of us.

Does any of this sound like it might be helpful?

obyvatel · May 3, 2016

I agree overall with Buddy's advice.

[quote author=13 Twirling Triskeles]
I don’t feel an urge or need to be fed. But I do feel an urge and need to feed others via paying attention. It’s not really a 2-way street. I don’t need a return flow. I only believed I did. But now I see that’s a lie. It’s not necessary at all. I only thought so because I was using an accounting system like capitalism thinking. IOW, I give this in order to get that. But that approach feels so manipulative and covert to me. It feels disingenuous (not genuinely honest) and reptilianish. It’s a perversion of the concepts of fairness and justice. It’s like thinking I’m owed something in exchange for what I give. But truly, I’m the one who owes everything. Nothing is owed to me.

I’m still in a state of shock about this realization so I’m not really sure why I’m posting it here except to get some feedback perhaps. Because it’s sort of turned my world upside down and I feel a little lost . . . like I just made an exit off the road most travelled and I’m in new territory and I don’t recognize this terrain. Where are the signposts for how to navigate this new path? It’s making me cry now. I’m not sure what to do . . . what to make of it. I can’t connect any dots. I feel like I’m inside out.
[/quote]

Don't need to do much when you feel emotional and overwhelmed. Just observe how long the state lasts. Enjoy it while it is there. It will pass. When it does, let it go without hankering after it. That would be my 2 cents.

PS: I merged the two threads you started in short succession since they seem quite related to your present state of mind.

herondancer · May 3, 2016

Buddy said:
Life doesn't have to be this complicated. Spend more time focusing on the groundwork involved in meeting your physical, practical and functional needs and spend some time limiting your mental activity to just the functional, practical level of life. Let some of that excess energy be used by the body and its intelligence in order to process out old emotional programs and tensions. When you must communicate with people IRL, don't worry about 'attention units.' Just try to keep attention flows balanced: give some attention, receive some attention, don't tire out other people's attention and don't let them tire out yours. Engage with some physical activity that doesn't require much conceptual activity and when you feel refreshed, read the material that's most useful to you for improving and upgrading relationships with others. If there is any "graduation" possible in this life, it's probably based on mastering the simple lessons first.

When we stop racing against time to discover the secrets of the universe and stop working so hard to find meaning and purpose outside of us, then we can find lots of meaning and purpose in just living and doing what we are involved in right now and with what is in front of us.

Does any of this sound like it might be helpful?

13TT's idea is an interesting way to look at interactions (I like it actually), but I can see where it could get one bound up in mental knots.

Buddy's advice is good. Regular life will bring you all the lessons you may need. "Before enlightenment, carry water, chop wood. After enlightenment, carry water, chop wood." ;)

13 Twirling Triskeles · May 3, 2016

13 Twirling Triskeles on Today at 01:55:56 AM said:
Any suggestions? Advice? Feedback? Further reading materials?

Buddy said:
While you were in that organization you refer to as a 'cult', you didn't perhaps ask what is the material/physical/neuroscience basis of attention units did you?

LOL I admit I did not. I wouldn’t have even thought of it. I’m pretty certain that the term ‘attention units’ was just a made up term to describe attention. They had a penchant for making up terms. I very seriously doubt that it was based on any scientific, material, physical, neuroscience.

Buddy said:
And please don't link me to anything that gives conceptual descriptions or discussions about them because I've read everything I could find. Rather, I'm asking about the physical objects called the attention units themselves. I don't think there is any objective basis because the written stuff can be traced to 1952 and the neuroscience doesn't start until about 1959 and that deals with a population of cells in the auditory cortex of cats. That's not the same thing as far as I can tell.

LOL again. Point taken. Quite right. No links to airy-fairy non-objective nonsense.

In answer to your question — No. No objective basis at all. I don’t think attention units were considered physical objects. I certainly didn’t consider them physical objects myself and I don’t recall anyone in that group ever attempting to equate them to a physical object.

If I used the word ‘attention’ instead of attention units, I think that conveys the meaning. I used that term because that’s the term that group used in order to describe attention. I suppose the idea was to somehow quantify attention into units. But that was just for descriptive purposes is my guess. I don’t think it was a copy-righted term. :)

Buddy said:
See:
Science. 1959 May 8;129(3358):1279-80.
Attention units in the auditory cortex.
HUBEL DH, HENSON CO, RUPERT A, GALAMBOS R.
Abstract
In the course of examining single unit responses from the cortex of unrestrained and unanesthetized cats, we have come upon a population of cells that appears to be sensitive to auditory stimuli only if the cat "pays attention" to the sound source. We have described these responses, since they have not been previously reported and since they illustrate an important difference between the information which can be gleaned from experiments of this type and that obtained in the usual "acute" microelectrode experiment.
_http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13658956

"Attention" Units in the Auditory Cortex
Author(s): David H. Hubel, Calvin O. Henson, Allen Rupert, Robert Galambos
Source: Science, New Series, Vol. 129, No. 3358 (May 8, 1959), pp. 1279-1280
Published by: American Association for the Advancement of Science
_http://hubel.med.harvard.edu/papers/HubelHenson1959Science.pdf

LOL No. I don’t think giving attention or paying attention to something or someone would be at all similar to the description above of cats’ attention units.

Buddy said:
So, here's what I'm thinking. You're on a search for meaning and purpose in life like so many other people are, but you're spending a great deal of time in the conceptual and imaginary realms of thought and you're probably burning up the energy your body can produce almost as fast as it can produce it and it's all mostly feeding the mind's need to keep churning without solving problems and probably overworking and running out the life of the brain's neurons.

My search for Meaning & Purpose in Life? I may be wrong, but I think the meaning and purpose of my life is to learn. How did I figure that out? Because it’s always been what I most love doing — since I was a little kid. Now that I can devote most of my time to doing just that is like 7th Heaven to me. I am so grateful for all the books written, the computers, the internet, this Forum, to all those who learned and wrote -- especially about objective Truth — like Laura for instance — and offered this information for us to learn. Learning and Dancing are my two most favorite activities. Those give me enough meaning and purpose for the time being. Ultimately, however, I still have to learn how to apply what I’m learning.

That realization was only the first in a series. There's a much bigger picture -- which I suspect doesn't need to be posted. But the bigger picture definitely has something to do with my purpose and meaning.

So instead of conserving my energy as Castenada says we should do, I’m expending it? And burning my poor little brain’s neurons out? Oh dear. Sounds as if I’m doing the opposite of what I ought to do. Thanks for pointing it out. I never thought of that.

I have to go back and re-read about how to conserve my energy. I’ve forgotten the procedure.

Buddy said:
Life doesn't have to be this complicated. Spend more time focusing on the groundwork involved in meeting your physical, practical and functional needs and spend some time limiting your mental activity to just the functional, practical level of life. Let some of that excess energy be used by the body and its intelligence in order to process out old emotional programs and tensions.

OK. I agree. It doesn’t feel complicated to me at all. Is it my writing style? Is it that I am complicating things but I just don’t see it? I thought it was extremely simple. So thank you for telling me that what I’m feeling, thinking and seeing isn’t at all how I appear to others. That’s actually very valuable & helpful information. That’s why I asked. That’s precisely the mirror I’ve been looking for. Thank you Buddy.

Does it seem to you that I may not be spending enough time meeting my physical, practical & functional needs? I’m not understanding. If you could ask anyone who knows me — family, friends, co-workers, employers, visitors, neighbors — they would pretty heartily agree that I have a knack for handling the basics & then some of the practical nitty-gritty of life.

Maybe I give a different impression because of my writing. But I assure you that I not only perform the basic tasks necessary in life, but that most people express the wish that they could be as organized, neat, tidy, clean, and on top of their chores and daily tasks as I am. And achieve an aesthetically pleasing, beautifully feng shuied environment as well. Almost none of this was learned. I was born knowing these skills and performed them from a very young age. And beyond the basics, I tend to go the whole nine yards. You could eat off my floors. None of this is difficult for me. It’s all just chopping wood and carrying water for me. I even do all my laundry by hand and hang it out on lines to dry. Somehow I’ve learned to work efficiently, effectively, and smarter and I come up with creative methods for making work less effort — even though the results seem as if I must put more effort into achieving them. Heck . . . maybe it’s just magic. I’m joking. :)

I dress nicely, I take care of my environment and my physical body. I walk a lot, dance, do yoga stretches. To me it’s all just basic maintenance. Being in 3-D requires that I do all this. So I do. I’m way too vain to not do it. I rarely put tasks off until later. I learned that if I do that, it captures my mental attention units and makes it more difficult to focus on what’s right in front of me. I CAN do it, but I usually choose to just get whatever needs doing done and then I don’t have to think about it.

The excess energy I referred to above was a direct result of having all those realizations. I wasn’t exerting any physical or mental energy to come up with those cognitions. I awoke and there they were. It feels as if the mental realizations produced the excess physical energy — not the other way ‘round.

In fact, I have been having several more realizations throughout the day — which has produced more and more energy.

One realization I had later this afternoon was an answer to a question I’ve been attempting to answer on & off for the past 26 years.

The realizations themselves DO seem to me to be a result of processing out old emotional programs and tensions for the past umpteen years.

I haven’t been sitting around pondering and thinking about things. The realizations just popped into my head without any effort. Well, that’s not exactly true. What’s true is that I’ve already made efforts to process these emotional programs and tensions for many years. As well as the efforts I’ve made to read & understand many posts on this Forum.

Why the resolutions came today and not previously, I have no idea. But it seems to me that I’d already laid the groundwork and they’ve been steeping on the back burner until today’s denoument.

Buddy said:
When you must communicate with people IRL, don't worry about 'attention units.' Just try to keep attention flows balanced: give some attention, receive some attention, don't tire out other people's attention and don't let them tire out yours.

LOL What? Me worry? That’s an old Mad Magazine joke. :) But, truly . . . that’s precisely the conclusion I’d reached myself. In fact I’ve been already practicing it with my neighbors today after having that realization. It’s been easy peasy actually.

Buddy said:
Engage with some physical activity that doesn't require much conceptual activity and when you feel refreshed, read the material that's most useful to you for improving and upgrading relationships with others.

Good points all. Honestly, I not only prefer to pay attention to what I’m doing so I don’t drop things, break things, mis-place things, or forget things, that I do little meditations as I task. Sometimes listening to music makes doing them more fun. I even like doing little dances or beating out drum rhythms while I’m working around the house. Like when I’m cleaning, I tone or make up little tunes which I hum. I learned from a friend of mine to do things more slowly so I don’t fumble the ball. And I watch what I’m doing. I mean I actually watch the motions I make and watch the objects as I lift them and set them down. I watch the ball. Which is what my tennis instructor told me to do when I took tennis lessons. I make efforts to open & close doors & drawers quietly. I don’t bang things around. I’m not sloppy or messy. I rarely spill things or drop things. I CAN power through tasks and go fast if I want to or choose to or need to. But if I don’t, then I don’t. I can choose any speed I like. It just depends on the situation or circumstances or time allowances. I’m a dancer. I’m used to moving gracefully and avoiding stubbing my toes or banging my head or bumping into things. I can stop on a dime mid-stride while out walking fast or moving through groups. None of this requires a PhD. It’s just all ordinary stuff. I totally trust my body. She’s a lot smarter than I am. She can navigate and handle 3-D better than my little thinking brain-mind can handle her duties.

Does that information help your assessments? Or not really?

Buddy said:
If there is any "graduation" possible in this life, it's probably based on mastering the simple lessons first.

Yeah. I agree. As the C’s say — simple karmic lessons.

As far as “graduation” — I can’t focus on that part right now because I’ve got enough on my plate just reading, learning & applying what I’m learning.

All I’ve got to say about 4-D is please let there be music and dancing.

Buddy said:
When we stop racing against time to discover the secrets of the universe and stop working so hard to find meaning and purpose outside of us, then we can find lots of meaning and purpose in just living and doing what we are involved in right now and with what is in front of us.

LOL I must be giving the impression that I’m racing against time. Actually, though, I feel as if I have all the time in the world — most of the time. LOL But I take your point. I truly do find meaning and purpose in what I’m doing now. What I’m doing now is LEARNING — increasing my knowledge base. However, I’m still a bit slow on the application part yet. But I know I’ll get there. I’m just doing baby steps — making mistakes — retracing my steps — finding out what I’ve missed or misunderstood — then taking more baby steps.

Buddy said:
Does any of this sound like it might be helpful?

Resounding YES! Thank you so much. You’ve helped me look at all this from another point of view and given me your observations based on what I’ve written. If there’s any conflict between your observations and my own subjective experiences and viewpoints, the fault is mine because all I can write about are my thoughts & feelings.

There’s no possible way you or anyone on this Forum could know what my physical lifestyle is like or how well or not well I perform my obyvatel tasks. So, it wasn’t to contradict you that I wrote about those things — it was more to let you see that although I am definitely an airy-fairy in-my-head kind of girl, I still do all the earthy stuff too. I mean I balance my check book. My financial and other records are up-to-date and organized. I don’t space out and forget appointments or birthdays. I’m not wandering around on Cloud 9. I did, after all, work as a secretary — for lawyers — for 22 years. I worked for CPA’s for 5 years and learned about taxes. I’ve set up businesses and filing systems and financial systems for start-up businesses. I know how to handle business matters. It may not bring me joy. But I can do it all & do it well.

Still — I’ve met other people in my life who strike me as sort of space-cadets & in their heads. And it’s not something I admire in others so I definitely do not want to be like that myself. And what you’ve helped me see is that how I appear to others is not at all how I think of myself. And that’s a really good thing to find out. So thank you very much.

Obyvatel - Reply #3 said:
I agree overall with Buddy's advice.

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
I don’t feel an urge or need to be fed. But I do feel an urge and need to feed others via paying attention. It’s not really a 2-way street. I don’t need a return flow. I only believed I did. But now I see that’s a lie. It’s not necessary at all. I only thought so because I was using an accounting system like capitalism thinking. IOW, I give this in order to get that. But that approach feels so manipulative and covert to me. It feels disingenuous (not genuinely honest) and reptilianish. It’s a perversion of the concepts of fairness and justice. It’s like thinking I’m owed something in exchange for what I give. But truly, I’m the one who owes everything. Nothing is owed to me.

I’m still in a state of shock about this realization so I’m not really sure why I’m posting it here except to get some feedback perhaps. Because it’s sort of turned my world upside down and I feel a little lost . . . like I just made an exit off the road most travelled and I’m in new territory and I don’t recognize this terrain. Where are the signposts for how to navigate this new path? It’s making me cry now. I’m not sure what to do . . . what to make of it. I can’t connect any dots. I feel like I’m inside out.

Obyvatel said:
Don't need to do much when you feel emotional and overwhelmed. Just observe how long the state lasts. Enjoy it while it is there. It will pass. When it does, let it go without hankering after it. That would be my 2 cents.

Yeah. These are temporary states. Been here & done these a zillion times over the years. As you say, this will pass. And I’ve learned over the years to let them go when they go. And enjoy ‘em when they come.

It’s already passed. But it was fun while it lasted. I love that state of ‘shock’. It’s like everything just stops. It’s nice.

Maybe I should just restrict these sorts of experiences to my journals. Maybe these posts don’t really help anyone else. I was just wanting to share, but I can always call my sister and share with her instead. We enjoy sharing these sorts of experiences with each other.

And I did get some good feedback from Buddy — with which you agreed — so it helped me a lot to post this stuff. And that’s what I asked for. Help. And I got it. Mahalos both of you.

Thanks for your support. I appreciate it. :)

Obyvatel said:
PS: I merged the two threads you started in short succession since they seem quite related to your present state of mind.

Thank you Obyvatel. I agree.

Cheers & thank you both for your feedback. I shall take your advices to heart and see if I can actually put them into practice.

Hi Herondancer -- I just now saw your reply. Thanks for taking time to read and respond. Precisely. Chop wood -- carry water. I think I mention exactly that in my above reply to Buddy and Obyvatel. So does that mean we're on the same page? Both literally and figuratively? :)

obyvatel · May 3, 2016

[quote author=13TT]
The excess energy I referred to above was a direct result of having all those realizations. I wasn’t exerting any physical or mental energy to come up with those cognitions. I awoke and there they were. It feels as if the mental realizations produced the excess physical energy — not the other way ‘round.
[/quote]

One way to look at this excess energy is like an unexpected (and pleasant) windfall. If you had a windfall like that in terms of money what would you do? Would you spend all of it immediately, getting stuff for yourself and others? Would you invest it carefully so that it multiplies in the future? A little bit of both and more?

Esotericism is a study about how to use energies. Gurdjieff, for instance, mentioned to his students that if they got some results (in terms of realizations or energy) following his exercises, they should not spend it immediately through daily life activities. He was of the opinion that one needs to harvest these energies so that a sufficient quantity and intensity is reached which can then bring about some lasting changes of being.

So these are my thoughts regarding the excess energy aspect. Just wanted to clarify that I do not devalue the kind of experiences you shared; but I am also careful not to overvalue them. Like money, the value of energy comes from how we use it.

This may not have come across at all in my previous post - so thought I would elaborate a bit.
Fwiw

13 Twirling Triskeles · May 3, 2016

13TT said:
The excess energy I referred to above was a direct result of having all those realizations. I wasn’t exerting any physical or mental energy to come up with those cognitions. I awoke and there they were. It feels as if the mental realizations produced the excess physical energy — not the other way ‘round.

Obyvatel said:
One way to look at this excess energy is like an unexpected (and pleasant) windfall. If you had a windfall like that in terms of money what would you do? Would you spend all of it immediately, getting stuff for yourself and others? Would you invest it carefully so that it multiplies in the future? A little bit of both and more?

Thank you. That’s a great way to look at handling excess energy. My problem for the past 20+ years has been too much energy. It used to be just creative energy. And I’d feel impelled to do & do & do all these creative projects. I had to put a stop to it and just say, “NO!” I was using so much of my time creating stuff, I felt like a slave to it.

This energy feels physical. It’s as if I drank a hundred cups of espresso. Today I have a bunch of errands to run. Thank heaven’s I don’t have a car and can walk for several miles to get all I have to do accomplished. That should help, yes?

I’m planning on doing the Iodine Protocol — after first getting my body in more ideal condition to handle all the detoxing effects. After reading that entire thread, I’m sort of hoping to experience the tiredness and need to sleep that many people reported. I’m more hesitant about all the extra energy people reported having. If there’s one thing I don’t need more of, it’s energy . . . physical, mental, or emotional.

Obyvatel said:
Esotericism is a study about how to use energies. Gurdjieff, for instance, mentioned to his students that if they got some results (in terms of realizations or energy) following his exercises, they should not spend it immediately through daily life activities. He was of the opinion that one needs to harvest these energies so that a sufficient quantity and intensity is reached which can then bring about some lasting changes of being.

OK. That makes sense. I’ve been so concerned about trying to get rid of all this energy as soon as I feel it, I hadn’t thought about conserving it in order to produce more lasting changes of being.

Which brings me to an idea I had this morning when I awoke. I wondered if I could use that technique outlined in the thread called Depression as a Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth) for dealing with all this positive emotional energy. I’ve been using it to deal with negative emotions for a while now and I must admit doing so has been beneficial.

It sounds like what Buddy may be saying is that I’ve allowed my intellectual center to usurp the work of my emotional center?

So, do you think using that technique for these past many weeks on my negative emotions may also be related to why I’m now having so many cognitions & realizations these past two days? That maybe there was some build-up going on that I wasn’t aware of?

I thought I’d give it a try this morning — just to see what would happen . . . just feeling the energy physically in my body rather than allowing my intellectual center to usurp the positive emotional energy by expressing the emotions via thoughts. What happened was similar to what happens when I use it for negative emotions. But I felt the energy coursing through my body rather than just in the pit of my stomach as happens when I use that technique for dealing with negative emotions.

And then I started having more realizations again. So now I have more of all this excess energy.

But I like your idea of using it like a windfall of money. If I leave it all in my bank account, it’s not doing anything useful. And if I use it all up, the bank account is depleted.

My issue is that whenever I use energy, more energy seems to be manufactured. When I use less energy, I feel less energetic. So maybe that’s an indication right there that I am not using energy mindfully or correctly.

Obviously I need to find a balance and learn how to handle energy better than I do.

Obyvatel said:
So these are my thoughts regarding the excess energy aspect. Just wanted to clarify that I do not devalue the kind of experiences you shared; but I am also careful not to overvalue them. Like money, the value of energy comes from how we use it.

You make very good points . . . about not assigning less or more value to these experiences than they actually warrant. Also that the value of these experiences and energy comes from how I use them rather than from the fact that I simply experience them. Not only sh*t happens, but also good things also just happen. So don’t make a bigger deal of them than they’re worth. They’re not worth as much as they seem in the sense of producing any lasting changes. They’re more like clouds passing by in the sky. Pretty to look at, but eventually they disappear. :) Thanks for bringing me down to earth. You and Buddy both. I do have a tendency to go overboard — one extreme to the other. Learning to hang out in the middle as a home base will be another aim for me to move towards.

Thank you both again so much for your feedback. Ooops! There I go again. I feel so grateful, I’m crying. Is there any doubt that I fall into the Woman #2 category? LOL :)

Obyvatel said:
This may not have come across at all in my previous post - so thought I would elaborate a bit.
Fwiw

It wasn’t so much that it didn’t come across at all. But your subsequent response helped me see more of the details in the picture you’re painting for me . . . and that really helps me understand this whole energy thing much better. So thank you very much for taking your time to do this.

I really appreciate all the feedback I’ve received so far. It feels as if you’re holding out those signposts I was looking for to help me better navigate this road and explore this terrain. :)

OK — off I go on my merry rounds for the day. See y’all later.

Buddy · May 4, 2016

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
My search for Meaning & Purpose in Life? I may be wrong, but I think the meaning and purpose of my life is to learn. How did I figure that out? Because it’s always been what I most love doing — since I was a little kid. Now that I can devote most of my time to doing just that is like 7th Heaven to me. I am so grateful for all the books written, the computers, the internet, this Forum, to all those who learned and wrote -- especially about objective Truth — like Laura for instance — and offered this information for us to learn. Learning and Dancing are my two most favorite activities. Those give me enough meaning and purpose for the time being. Ultimately, however, I still have to learn how to apply what I’m learning.

Yes, the application part, which answers the question, 'what am I doing', which links to 'what do I want', which links to 'what is my specific Aim for my life?'

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
So instead of conserving my energy as Castenada says we should do, I’m expending it?

So, you already know about the portion of the Work relating to Castenada's lessons on attention? How much have you read of the recommended reading there, if I may ask?

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
And burning my poor little brain’s neurons out? Oh dear. Sounds as if I’m doing the opposite of what I ought to do. Thanks for pointing it out. I never thought of that.

Well, there is some neuroscience that strongly suggests that, but I don't think we're ready to present proof yet. And please note I don't work in that field, I'm just an avid follower. Without going into all that detail right now, I'd say it primarily has to do with certain neurons being subjected to the same firing patterns over and over to the point of exhaustion. Most of that work concerns the hippocampus and there is the well used phrase 'hippocampal cell death' as programmed and non-programmed and involving other reasons as well, but work in this area continues on into the neo-cortex. The area of investigation expands into the observation of excess glutamate accumulating around the D2 and D4 receptors of the dopermingeric pathways, triggering overproduction of dopamine which saturates the area in a theorized attempt to dampen the electrical activity enough to protect neurons.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that, right now, there is anything to be concerned about necessarily, especially for folks who expose themselves to nature, natural stimulation and changing circumstances and environments. Even for people who read and study alot, if they are well-rounded in their interests, the tendency to learn and integrate info across domains of knowledge could act as a preventative as the same old patterns aren't being repeated on the same old neurons over and over.

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
OK. I agree. It doesn’t feel complicated to me at all. Is it my writing style? Is it that I am complicating things but I just don’t see it? I thought it was extremely simple. So thank you for telling me that what I’m feeling, thinking and seeing isn’t at all how I appear to others. That’s actually very valuable & helpful information. That’s why I asked. That’s precisely the mirror I’ve been looking for. Thank you Buddy.

Please note that my observations can only be based on my reading of what is available to read at the time and may naturally reveal my own subjective assessments which can be off or even widely miss the mark. If what I was saying seems worth something to you, then good on us.

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
Does it seem to you that I may not be spending enough time meeting my physical, practical & functional needs?

Not at all, at least not in that either/or sense. If such a thing was suggested, my intention would have been to offer the idea as something to think about. Since you added all that additional info, I can see you've got that part of your life organized and well in hand.

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
Good points all. Honestly, I not only prefer to pay attention to what I’m doing so I don’t drop things, break things, mis-place things, or forget things, that I do little meditations as I task. Sometimes listening to music makes doing them more fun. I even like doing little dances or beating out drum rhythms while I’m working around the house. Like when I’m cleaning, I tone or make up little tunes which I hum. I learned from a friend of mine to do things more slowly so I don’t fumble the ball. And I watch what I’m doing. I mean I actually watch the motions I make and watch the objects as I lift them and set them down. I watch the ball. Which is what my tennis instructor told me to do when I took tennis lessons. I make efforts to open & close doors & drawers quietly. I don’t bang things around. I’m not sloppy or messy. I rarely spill things or drop things. I CAN power through tasks and go fast if I want to or choose to or need to. But if I don’t, then I don’t. I can choose any speed I like. It just depends on the situation or circumstances or time allowances. I’m a dancer. I’m used to moving gracefully and avoiding stubbing my toes or banging my head or bumping into things. I can stop on a dime mid-stride while out walking fast or moving through groups. None of this requires a PhD. It’s just all ordinary stuff. I totally trust my body. She’s a lot smarter than I am. She can navigate and handle 3-D better than my little thinking brain-mind can handle her duties.

Does that information help your assessments? Or not really?

It helps in a way, the idea being to slow down the thinking mechanism and allow more awareness on energy as the body interacts in the environment. You don't seem to have any problems to address in this area, but I wonder if you'd be open to the experience of that piano player who suddenly realizes she is not making any music at all, it's the piano that is using her to play itself! Seriously, though, it's a way to quiet the mind if such a thing is possible, and to maybe become available to additional sources of influence or impressions in Mouravieff's terms.

13 Twirling Triskeles · May 4, 2016

Hi Buddy —

Thanks for your more detailed replies and the extra time & effort you’ve given towards helping me out here. You and Obyvatel both. I really appreciate your feedback(s).
 
Question: Would it be fair to say that what I need to do is get-out-of-my-head and come-to-my-senses? That instead of thinking-thinking-thinking, I could just focus more on my body sensations or movements? As a way of conserving energy I mean?

I’ve begun experimenting with doing that today. Like that technique mentioned in Depression as a Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth). But using it with respect to the positive emotional energy instead of negative emotional energy. However, I’m not sure if that’s a wrong use of that method. Even if the results seem to be good so far — at least insofar as getting out of my head and just focusing on my body’s sensations and any emotions that arise. But I don’t know if it might backfire on me. Hence, my question.

Quote from: 13 Twirling Triskeles on Yesterday at 11:21:04 AM said:
My search for Meaning & Purpose in Life? I may be wrong, but I think the meaning and purpose of my life is to learn. How did I figure that out? Because it’s always been what I most love doing — since I was a little kid. Now that I can devote most of my time to doing just that is like 7th Heaven to me. I am so grateful for all the books written, the computers, the internet, this Forum, to all those who learned and wrote -- especially about objective Truth — like Laura for instance — and offered this information for us to learn. Learning and Dancing are my two most favorite activities. Those give me enough meaning and purpose for the time being. Ultimately, however, I still have to learn how to apply what I’m learning.

Buddy said:
Yes, the application part, which answers the question, 'what am I doing', which links to 'what do I want', which links to 'what is my specific Aim for my life?’

Right. The Big Question. My Aim for my life? Still working on that one. Obviously, learning isn’t enough of an aim — at least to me it isn’t. What’s the point of just learning a bunch of stuff if I can’t make use of it in some useful way? The value of the knowledge is that it can be applied in some creative, useful, helpful way. Or, at least that’s how it seems to me at this stage of my understanding. Maybe that will change as I learn more. Right now I’m pretty stuck in my need to be of some use. I have usefulness and valuable kinda merged in my mind. At least when I was a working, I felt useful on some level.

Even the dancing for me is more a way to pass the inspirational energy I receive into the group. It basically just moves through me. Maybe like that piano story you mentioned. LOL I have no illusions that I’m the mistress of the dance. I’m well aware that the music itself if running the show and is dancing me — I’m along for the ride. My body just serves as the medium for the music to express itself as movement. Do you think that’s not such a good thing?

Quote from: 13 Twirling Triskeles on Yesterday at 11:21:04 AM said:
So instead of conserving my energy as Castenada says we should do, I’m expending it?

Buddy said:
So, you already know about the portion of the Work relating to Castenada's lessons on attention? How much have you read of the recommended reading there, if I may ask?

You may definitely ask.:) And I shall answer.:) I’ve read several of Castenada’s books maybe even most of them — a couple of them more than once — years ago — as well as some of his material online within the past few years. For whatever reason, Castenada’s descriptions or words or whatever are more easy for me to understand than Gurdjieff. But I can see the similarities when others point them out.

It was your post and Obyvatel’s post that made me remember that part of needing to conserve energy in order to meet the unknown without flinching — and Gurdjieff’s point about conserving energy in order to produce lasting permanent changes. Don’t know why I forgot all about those advices. Probably ‘cause I didn’t fully and completely comprehend the aim of doing so . . . mostly because I so rarely feel a lack of energy — physical, mental, or emotional. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to reduce my energy levels rather than conserve them. How backwards is that? It’s only today after reading Obyvatel’s post that it occured to me that maybe the way I’m reducing my energy levels is actually feeding the predator. I hadn’t ever considered that before. Do you think that may be what I’ve been doing by hanging out in my head so much? Feeding the predator?

Buddy said:
It helps in a way, the idea being to slow down the thinking mechanism and allow more awareness on energy as the body interacts in the environment. You don't seem to have any problems to address in this area, but I wonder if you'd be open to the experience of that piano player who suddenly realizes she is not making any music at all, it's the piano that is using her to play itself! Seriously, though, it's a way to quiet the mind if such a thing is possible, and to maybe become available to additional sources of influence or impressions in Mouravieff's terms.

Yes. This all makes more sense to me now. Not only slowing down the thinking, but why it’s a good idea to do that. Maybe it’s too bad that my thinking doesn’t interfere with my doing — insofar as having accidents for instance. It’s even worse that I can do both at the same time and not injure myself or damage objects I’m working with. At least if I was bumping into things and bruising myself because I was too busy ‘thinking’ while working, then I’d have been super-motivated to do only one or the other because the results of doing both produced catastrophes. It’s not necessarily a good thing to be able to do them together. EXCEPT — that it does give me a golden opportunity to practice DISCIPLINE over my thinking mind. I mean really. I don’t HAVE to think while I’m physically working. There’s not really a need for me to do so. I can just as easily — & probably more enjoyably — focus exclusively on what I’m doing without thinking thoughts at all. In fact, I remember I’ve done that both consciously and spontaneously countless times during these past many years already. I just keep forgetting what a good idea it is to do it. It’s not a new idea. And it’s actually fun to do too. I just wasn’t using the opportunity to do it consistently as a practice. But hey. Something I can actually apply. I love it. This is gonna be fun.

Thanks again, Buddy, for your feedback. I’m already looking forward to having something to DO that I know I CAN do. Oh goody! :)

P.S. Thanks for the info about the brain neurons too. I'm relieved that I may not be endangering those little guys. I don't want to be mean. And besides, they deserve to live too. OSIT

Buddy · May 4, 2016

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
Question: Would it be fair to say that what I need to do is get-out-of-my-head and come-to-my-senses? That instead of thinking-thinking-thinking, I could just focus more on my body sensations or movements? As a way of conserving energy I mean?

I’ve begun experimenting with doing that today. Like that technique mentioned in Depression as a Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth). But using it with respect to the positive emotional energy instead of negative emotional energy. However, I’m not sure if that’s a wrong use of that method. Even if the results seem to be good so far — at least insofar as getting out of my head and just focusing on my body’s sensations and any emotions that arise. But I don’t know if it might backfire on me. Hence, my question.

I'm not sure and I'm not any kind of teacher. I think you've already got a handle on what we're discussing and not needing my help here. I am a bit curious about the idea of 'backfire' you just mentioned, though. I've never seen a reason to work with 'positive emotional energy' that way or to hinder its direction of expression and haven't used that particular technique. I suppose you could also consider just engaging with new projects that could help others out there as a way of practicing the channeling of your energy for possibly beneficial results. And not as an alternative, necessarily, but as an adjunct or whatever.

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
I have no illusions that I’m the mistress of the dance. I’m well aware that the music itself if running the show and is dancing me — I’m along for the ride. My body just serves as the medium for the music to express itself as movement. Do you think that’s not such a good thing?

Well, my piano player and your dancing example is just a rewording of the same illusion, of course. It would probably be more accurate to suggest that a 'gestalt' is somehow cognized or conceived when two or more things join together for a single purpose. It's similar to the description of 'being in the flow' but not quite so bounded as Csikszentmihályi's description. And there's the other side of the 'forming a gestalt' idea and that is simply removing blocks on a unitary or unified flow of life and energy and I'm sure we can get even more esoteric with both ideas. These are just some things that come to me as I do my own exploring.

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
It’s only today after reading Obyvatel’s post that it occured to me that maybe the way I’m reducing my energy levels is actually feeding the predator. I hadn’t ever considered that before. Do you think that may be what I’ve been doing by hanging out in my head so much? Feeding the predator?

Maybe it depends on what your doing while 'hanging out' there and what purpose it serves, but this seems like an odd way of putting it. I would say your Aim could be a useful reference point to determine the value of activities you pursue.

13 Twirling Triskeles · May 5, 2016

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
Question: Would it be fair to say that what I need to do is get-out-of-my-head and come-to-my-senses? That instead of thinking-thinking-thinking, I could just focus more on my body sensations or movements? As a way of conserving energy I mean?

I’ve begun experimenting with doing that today. Like that technique mentioned in Depression as a Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth). But using it with respect to the positive emotional energy instead of negative emotional energy. However, I’m not sure if that’s a wrong use of that method. Even if the results seem to be good so far — at least insofar as getting out of my head and just focusing on my body’s sensations and any emotions that arise. But I don’t know if it might backfire on me. Hence, my question.

Buddy said:
I’m not sure and I'm not any kind of teacher. I think you've already got a handle on what we're discussing and not needing my help here. I am a bit curious about the idea of 'backfire' you just mentioned, though. I've never seen a reason to work with 'positive emotional energy' that way or to hinder its direction of expression and haven't used that particular technique. I suppose you could also consider just engaging with new projects that could help others out there as a way of practicing the channeling of your energy for possibly beneficial results. And not as an alternative, necessarily, but as an adjunct or whatever.

Yes, ok, thank you. My response to your statement above is below. (Sorry for weird wording.)

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
I have no illusions that I’m the mistress of the dance. I’m well aware that the music itself if running the show and is dancing me — I’m along for the ride. My body just serves as the medium for the music to express itself as movement. Do you think that’s not such a good thing?

Buddy said:
Well, my piano player and your dancing example is just a rewording of the same illusion, of course. It would probably be more accurate to suggest that a 'gestalt' is somehow cognized or conceived when two or more things join together for a single purpose. It's similar to the description of 'being in the flow' but not quite so bounded as Csikszentmihályi's description. And there's the other side of the 'forming a gestalt' idea and that is simply removing blocks on a unitary or unified flow of life and energy and I'm sure we can get even more esoteric with both ideas. These are just some things that come to me as I do my own exploring.

Yeah. The similarities of the Piano Player & the Dancing struck me too.

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
It’s only today after reading Obyvatel’s post that it occured to me that maybe the way I’m reducing my energy levels is actually feeding the predator. I hadn’t ever considered that before. Do you think that may be what I’ve been doing by hanging out in my head so much? Feeding the predator?

Buddy said:
Maybe it depends on what your doing while 'hanging out' there and what purpose it serves, but this seems like an odd way of putting it. I would say your Aim could be a useful reference point to determine the value of activities you pursue.

Obyvatel used the following analogy to describe what I could consider doing with all the excess energy I was feeling as a result of the realizations I posted about.

Obyvatel said:
One way to look at this excess energy is like an unexpected (and pleasant) windfall. If you had a windfall like that in terms of money what would you do? Would you spend all of it immediately, getting stuff for yourself and others? Would you invest it carefully so that it multiplies in the future? A little bit of both and more?

and

Obyvatel said:
Esotericism is a study about how to use energies. Gurdjieff, for instance, mentioned to his students that if they got some results (in terms of realizations or energy) following his exercises, they should not spend it immediately through daily life activities. He was of the opinion that one needs to harvest these energies so that a sufficient quantity and intensity is reached which can then bring about some lasting changes of being.

And you gave me the following suggestions about what I could do with all my excess energy.

Buddy said:
So, here's what I'm thinking. You're on a search for meaning and purpose in life like so many other people are, but you're spending a great deal of time in the conceptual and imaginary realms of thought and you're probably burning up the energy your body can produce almost as fast as it can produce it and it's all mostly feeding the mind's need to keep churning without solving problems and probably overworking and running out the life of the brain's neurons.

and

Buddy said:
Life doesn't have to be this complicated. Spend more time focusing on the groundwork involved in meeting your physical, practical and functional needs and spend some time limiting your mental activity to just the functional, practical level of life. Let some of that excess energy be used by the body and its intelligence in order to process out old emotional programs and tensions.

So what I concluded (possibly erroneously) is that I need to be more conscious and conscientious about how I deal with my excess energy. Using Obyvatel's analogy, what I do with the extra $ windfall. Use all of it now? Use some of it now and save some of it for future use? Second option sounds more balanced to me. With that in mind, it occurs to me that one way of exercising option #2, (using some now and saving some for future use), would be to not spend it all on a bunch of mental activity immediately. That what I could do instead is spend some of it in focusing and paying attention to something other than my thinking addiction. And that by not spending it all on mental activity, I would be conserving some of that energy in my NRG savings bank for future use. And one way I could do that is to change what I pay attention to (give energy to).

I chose 2 things to pay attention to and focus on instead of mental activity. My breathing and my body sensations. Either one separately or both simultaneously.

Focusing on my body reminds me of when I practice that technique outlined in Depression as a Steppping Stone (for Soul Growth) as a way of working with negative emotions.

In that technique, the point is to simply FEEL the emotions — not think about them — not express them using words or thoughts. To just focus on feeling what the energy feels like. And when I do that, what I feel are physical body sensations in my stomach-gut area.

When I focus on just feeling my positive emotions — not expressing them by posting them here on the Forum, not writing about them in my journal, not discussing them out loud with others, I feel the energy flowing throughout my entire body — not just strictly centered around my gut area.

That if I express my emotions — negative or positive — my understanding is that I’m spending my energy rather than conserving it. That if I conserve it, I will be able to use it for better purposes — such as your suggestion here —

Buddy said:
you could also consider just engaging with new projects that could help others out there as a way of practicing the channeling of your energy for possibly beneficial results. And not as an alternative, necessarily, but as an adjunct or whatever.

My question about ‘back-firing’ was because I don’t know if using a technique designed to work with negative emotions is counter-productive or a wrong or mis-use of energy when applied to positive emotions. And you addressed and answered my question by stating that you’ve

Buddy said:
<snip>
I’ve never seen a reason to work with 'positive emotional energy' that way or to hinder its direction of expression and haven't used that particular technique.

OK. Good enough. Mahalo nui loa. :)

And I want to thank you very much for all your feedbacks. This has been tremendously helpful to me. And I now also have something to DO -- something to practice. Which is the piece' de resistance of this entire exchange for me. :)

So, unless someone comes along to point out any errors I’ve made, I think I’m good to go & ready to put this thread to bed.

BTW — I’m having fun catching myself involved in continuous mental activity and re-focusing my attention on my physical actions, body feelings/sensations, or my breathing.

P.S. I'm not eliminating all mental activity by-the-way. I'm just restricting it to reading, learning, conversations, writing. I'm only attempting to eliminate excessive mental activity when I don't actually NEED to use my mind to think -- like while I perform household tasks for instance. Just as an experiment.

Cosmos · May 5, 2016

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
 [...]
Question: Would it be fair to say that what I need to do is get-out-of-my-head and come-to-my-senses? That instead of thinking-thinking-thinking, I could just focus more on my body sensations or movements? As a way of conserving energy I mean?
[...]

I think the realizations you have described could be described as those that have been mentioned by various teachings as the "realization of the terror of the human condition". The realization that we are in fact all over the place, most of the time, and all those different centers get activated automatically, either by outside influences or by reactions in our self, is a profound realization. Over time we come to realize how completely governed we are by those reaction, in any sitaution in life. For example: One moment we feel fine, the next, something little or big that effects us, either consciously or unconsciously, changes our reactions and feelings and another "I" is in control. And so on, day by day, minute for minute, second by second.

All those different "I's" within us can be quite different: Some a cranky others are needy, and so on. The realization then, that we behave and act exactly as those "I's" feel at any given moment towards others and ourselves, is the real shocker there. Over time those realizations start to come more often throughout the day, if you continue your efforts, until you start to be confronted by those realizations almost constantly by observing your behaviour towards anything and anybody in life. Then at a certain point you start to see patterns of what has actually happened in your body or mind (most often injected from outside influences) that changed that "I", into another.

Yes I think it might be good to not mull over those realizations all to much, but instead making an effort to stay in the moment and just try to gently observe yourself, day by day, and try if you can later, to correct those reactions that you realize, that are not you. The important thing here is not to judge but to just observe and say to yourself something like "Right now is where the fun begins!" when you see and/or feel that another "I" has just been triggered and is in control now.

Mouravieff describes it as follows, in Gnosis I:

As we gradually progress, we become more clearly aware of the real situation in which we find ourselves. The inner content of man is analogous to a vase full of iron filings in a state of mixture as a result of mechanical action. Every shock received by the vase causes displacement of the particles of iron filings. Thus real life remains hidden from the human being due to the constant changes occurring in his inner life.

Even so, as we shall see later, this senseless and dangerous situation can be modified in a beneficial way. But this requires work; conscientious and sustained effort. Introspection carried out relentlessly results in enhanced internal sensibility. This improved sensibility in its turn intensifies the amplitude and frequency of movement whenever the iron filings are disturbed. As a result, shocks that previously were not noticed will now provoke vivid reactions. These movements, because of their continuous amplification, can create a friction between the particles of iron so intense that we may one day feel the interior fire igniting within us.

This fire must not remain a harmless flare-up. Nor is it enough that the fire smolders dormant under the ashes. A live and ardent fire once lit must be carefully kept alight by the will to refine and cultivate sensitiveness. If it continues in this way, our state can change: the heat of the flame will start a process of fusion within us.

From this point on the inner content will no longer behave like a heap of iron filings: it will form a block. Then further shocks will no longer provoke interior change in man as they did previously. Having reached this point he will have acquired a firmness; he will remain himself in the midst of the tempests to which life may expose him.

This process takes time and a lot of facing and seeing "your evil sides", with hopefully as little judging as possible, before the fire can be ignited and finally a block of iron can be formed out of that fire, as Mouravieff analogy describes.

Looks to me that you are working at a good direction and more positive energy output (giving something back) might help you on your further journey.

13 Twirling Triskeles · May 6, 2016

Aloha Pashalis --

Thanks so much for your helpful reply. And I'm not just saying that either. I genuinely mean that your reply was helpful. I think I'm now understanding that phrase "more food for thought". And I don't mean little i type thinking (which isn't really 'thinking' at all). I mean thinking that actually produces more clarity about whatever I'm learning or seeing. The kind of thinking that strips away veils and sees beyond illusions and barriers.

At any rate, I thank you for providing the necessary and welcome clues, ideas & information that got the ball moving. :)

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
 [...]
Question: Would it be fair to say that what I need to do is get-out-of-my-head and come-to-my-senses? That instead of thinking-thinking-thinking, I could just focus more on my body sensations or movements? As a way of conserving energy I mean?

[...]

Pashalis said:
I think the realizations you have described could be described as those that have been mentioned by various teachings as the "realization of the terror of the human condition". The realization that we are in fact all over the place, most of the time, and all those different centers get activated automatically, either by outside influences or by reactions in our self, is a profound realization. Over time we come to realize how completely governed we are by those reaction, in any sitaution in life. For example: One moment we feel fine, the next, something little or big that effects us, either consciously or unconsciously, changes our reactions and feelings and another "I" is in control. And so on, day by day, minute for minute, second by second.

Yes . . . so true. Sometimes this condition seems terrifying . . . like when I see or hear the voices of the inner predator which seem repellent, repulsive, ugly, and disgusting to me. Other times I have to laugh out loud at the mechanical, pathetic pettiness . . . the puffed-up grandiosity, self-importance & vanity of it. It’s a mixed bag of tricks. And the trickster never misses a trick.

Another inner shock is realizing how even positive energy can be used as a weapon by these servants-to-self little i's. Talk about me being duped by the dark forces. Jeesh! Guess I should have been on my guard after reading the C’s saying that STS forces used light to alter our DNA(?) for their own purposes. Gives one pause, yes? Now THAT’s a terrifying realization right there. That even light can be used as a weapon against us. Eeeeeek!

Sorry, Pashalis. I’m still searching through the C’s sessions for this reference. It’s taking a while. When I find it, I’ll post it later. Do you recall that reference? It’s sort of vague in my memory. I don’t recall the word sequence so I can narrow my search parameters using quotation marks . . . meaning I’ve looked through lots of sessions using the Find feature to locate any references to STS because that’s the only part I’m sure about. I don’t remember whether there’s an Orion connection or not. I don’t even remember if there’s actually a connection to our DNA. Like I say, it’s vague. So I searched for STS Orion Light. Goyacobol is a great inspiration for me to make more search attempts. Thanks Goyacobol! :)

Another delay is because I was searching for Black Magnetic Center. Then I got caught up reading a bunch of Mouravieff stuff (which I want to go back to) until it occurred to me to search the Cassiopaea Glossary. Bingo!

So, while it’s vastly educational to perform searches, I find the process similar to looking up words in dictionaries. I get caught up spending a lot more time than I expected because there’s so much other tangential interesting stuff to read about. I’m not complaining — just saying. :)

Pashalis said:
All those different "I's" within us can be quite different: Some a cranky others are needy, and so on. The realization then, that we behave and act exactly as those "I's" feel at any given moment towards others and ourselves, is the real shocker there. Over time those realizations start to come more often throughout the day, if you continue your efforts, until you start to be confronted by those realizations almost constantly by observing your behaviour towards anything and anybody in life. Then at a certain point you start to see patterns of what has actually happened in your body or mind (most often injected from outside influences) that changed that "I", into another.

Unreal i's vs. Real-I-zations: Yes. In my journal, I wrote a list of character traits of these little i’s. Usurpers of energy — inner-space intruders — hijackers — hackers — appropriators — theives — liars — seducers — actors — pretenders — vampires. Not an exhaustive list by any means. Kind of like unwelcome house guests that plopped down and refuse to leave.

Genuine vs. Mechanical Constructs: Another entry I wrote about the little i’s was that they don’t feel genuine. They feel more like constructs. Like Tinker Toy or Lego constructs. Created automatically through some sort of psyche process as stand-ins performing roles on the stage of life. Pretending to be the real I.

And phrases from my childhood keep popping up. Which help me see how those statements (repeated over & over again like hypnotic suggestions to a child’s mind) have practically created Tinker Toy construct little i’s. It’s all so mechanical. It is kind of terrifying & repulsive when I look at it closely. Whether through observing them or whether I’m shocked into seeing them.

Judgments: Yes. I do both. Sometimes I realize I’m judging the i’s or judging myself for missing the clues and not spotting the obvious. And other times even a judgment seems irrelevant because the entire predator scenario seems so darn whack it’s not even wrong.

For sure it definitely feels lifeless. Like a bunch of nuts & bolts. In fact, the entire thing feels like a collection of gears & wheels & pulleys & conveyor belts and factories — actually like Santa’s little toy shop . . . which seems more like a little shop of horrors.

Except there’s no rhyme or reason or end result to all this assembly line activity. It’s meaningless and pointless. At least from my perspective. I’m sure there’s some point to it from the predator’s perspective. But, eeeew! What an image! Yuck. Definitely not an attractive picture. It’s like the brutality of neutrality. But is it neutral? It seems basically just psychopathic type predatory style energy. You can’t reason with it. It’s like talking to a metal cog in a machine. And if the psychopath feels like anything to me, it feels like a machine. And THAT’s the terror of the situation for me. That I also have that installation within my own psyche. It’s one thing to see it externally and wish to avoid it like a plague. But to see it lurking within my own self? Yikes! Total Eeeeeks-Ville!

On some level it’s hypnotically mesmerizing — because of its pointlessness. But after a while of watching it, I just want to go and jump into a pristine clean stream of clear, cleansing water. I’ve had enough for the time being. I'm sure I'll be encountering more views in the future. That's a given. Each time I see it unmasked, it just makes me stronger and more determined to continue peeling the layers of the onion until I get to the very core.

And the most pointless part of this entire thing to me is that it’s all designed in order to provide food? Are you kidding me????!!!! FOOD!!!! For eating purposes!!!??? This is the part I have the most problem groking. The need to eat!!! Seriously??!!!

OK — I can see that one of my little i’s is ready to rant & preach to the choir — so I’m yanking her off stage toute suite. :)

Pashalis said:
Yes I think it might be good to not mull over those realizations all to much, but instead making an effort to stay in the moment and just try to gently observe yourself, day by day, and try if you can later, to correct those reactions that you realize, that are not you. The important thing here is not to judge but to just observe and say to yourself something like "Right now is where the fun begins!" when you see and/or feel that another "I" has just been triggered and is in control now.

Yes. I see your point. I’ll just keep practicing observing and staying in the moment. I suspect that at some point, the veil will lift enough (probably through some feedback from one of you here) that will help me connect enough knowledge dots in a way that I can viscerally feel the power of that information . . . and at those points, I’ll be able to actually SEE the next step to take.

Pashalis said:
Mouravieff describes it as follows, in Gnosis I:

photos

Thanks, Pashalis, for that illustration of building a magnetic center. I was thinking about that when I decided to practice that technique described in Depression as a Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth). The point being to prevent the Intellectual Center from usurping the Emotional Center Energy . . . thereby allowing the lower emotional center to vibrate fast enough to open up a conduit to the Higher Emotional Center. Somehow, I was thinking that performing this technique is connected to Mouravieff’s fusing a Magnetic Center.

Got me thinking about one more reason this Forum and the feedback and mirroring are so valuable to all of us. To prevent us from fusing a Black Magnetic Center. I hadn’t really felt that on a visceral level until getting the feedback I got from this thread.

The image I got was of being a hiker . . . treking up the mountainside . . . on a narrow path . . . in the dark . . . blindfolded . . . treacherous cliffs on both sides of the path . . . and needing others who are familiar with this mountain and the path . . . who are NOT wearing blindfolds & who ARE carrying lanterns & flashlights and who CAN see and therefore CAN guide me past the dangers and pitfalls and caution me from stepping off a ledge or tripping over sharp branches & jagged stones. They say, ‘No, no! Not that way! Over here. Watch your step . . . pay attention to where you place your left foot because you’re about to step into some quicksand.’

So thank you all for being great guides. Makes the journey much more fun and far less scary. Wouldn’t want to do this on my own. However -- if I didn’t have you all -- I would still have to take a chance and go it alone — even if I fell over the cliff. ‘Cause there’s nothing else worth doing. It’s less a journey taken in order to reach the peak and more a journey because it’s really the only game in town worth playing — regardless of the dangers. And the biggest danger would not be falling over the edge, crashing on the rocks below & missing any chance to get off the merry-go-round. The biggest danger would be to fuse a Black Magnetic Center because of inability to discern what are A influences vs. B influences. And that is one of the greatest services this Forum provides those of us who wish to ascend that Mountain I think.

I am somewhat cautious by nature — not especially attracted to gambling. But I have to admit that the call of that Mountain Muse is irresistible. I cannot NOT do it. But I’m so relieved and grateful that I don’t have to chance the dangers alone. Besides the fact that I’d only get about 1/2 step before I stumbled into the quicksand, it’s just so much more enjoyable to hike with a group of people than to hike alone in the wilderness. Shared journeys are way more fun. For me anyway. And I haven’t read anywhere yet that the Work is supposed to be not Fun! Even struggle and effort can occasionally or often be fun. Is there some law somewhere that struggle and effort can NOT be fun?

Pashalis said:
This process takes time and a lot of facing and seeing "your evil sides", with hopefully as little judging as possible, before the fire can be ignited and finally a block of iron can be formed out of that fire, as Mouravieff analogy describes.

Your points all make total sense to me, Pashalis. Hopefully, I’ve learned the lesson that I don’t need to be greedy and try to skip steps. The reason for steps is that each step helps to build a solid, grounded foundation for the next story of the structure to be built. There’s nothing permanent or lasting that can be built on quicksand or with faulty bricks. And the condition and quality of the building & the building’s ability to withstand earthquakes, tidal waves, or guided misiles is paramount here.

Pashalis said:
Looks to me that you are working at a good direction and more positive energy output (giving something back) might help you on your further journey.

Yes. It always comes back to giving something back and contributing does it not? I’m only barely able to glimpse the truth of that statement. It’s so easy for me to do out here in the real world. But I still feel pretty inept when it comes to contributing here on the Forum. But do not fear. My pattern is like that of a 757. I may need a very long run-way in order to lift off, but once I lift off and am airborne, nothing can stop me. :)

Thanks again, Pashalis for your feedback. :)

P.S. I'm just now remembering something. When I first experienced what might be called the TERROR of the situation! It was certainly one of the Terrors if not the full & total terror. Sometime back in 2006 as I recall. Just a few days, or weeks, or maybe 2 months before I found Laura. On that Bibliotecas Pleyades site. Finding out that we are not at the top of the food chain. I'm remembering now how hugely that info affected me. It was as if the ground itself disappeared from beneath my feet. I was in such a state of shock, I couldn't think at all for a very long time. My mind just shut down. I felt like a 2-yr old -- totally defenseless and vulnerable and at the mercy of beings who definitely did NOT have my best interests at heart. It had never occurred to me that anything would have that attitude towards human beings. I didn't even think of it as evil. I couldn't judge it at all. It was too foreign a concept for me to wrap my wits around in order to form any judgment.

OK -- sorry. That memory just came up as I was typing this reply. The point is that after that initial heavy-duty shock, even the shock of discovering that same energy residing within my own internal psyche . . . that I've got this beast within . . . while horrifying enough, is also almost anti-climactic. I already knew about the existence of my shadow side long before finding out about predators, aliens, or the Bibliotecas site. So I was somewhat prepared to face the shadow part of myself.

However, I wasn't totally prepared for the fact that the shadow had the exact same nature as that predator eater. I consider this inner beast to be a totally foreign installation -- an attachment -- an add-on. I may not know who me is, but I feel pretty darn positive that this beast is definitely not the real me. However, it is me as long as I continue to allow it to operate as IF it's me. As long as I allow it to run the show, it may as well be me for all practical purposes. So the sooner I can deprive it of it's home base within, the better.

It's just a squatter who has taken over these premises. I'm in the process of serving it an eviction notice. I have no hesitation in facing it unflinchingly and refusing to back down or cave in. I'm not afraid of it. But I do need to make efforts to discipline myself so that I will face it. I know with certainty, that it is NOT as all-powerful and godlike as it tries to convince me it is. But it's not a wimp either. I can't permit myself to under-estimate it. I have already done so at my own peril.

Buddy · May 6, 2016

13 Twirling Triskeles said:
I consider this inner beast to be a totally foreign installation -- an attachment -- an add-on. I may not know who me is, but I feel pretty darn positive that this beast is definitely not the real me. However, it is me as long as I continue to allow it to operate as IF it's me. As long as I allow it to run the show, it may as well be me for all practical purposes. So the sooner I can deprive it of it's home base within, the better.

It's just a squatter who has taken over these premises. I'm in the process of serving it an eviction notice. I have no hesitation in facing it unflinchingly and refusing to back down or cave in. I'm not afraid of it. But I do need to make efforts to discipline myself so that I will face it. I know with certainty, that it is NOT as all-powerful and godlike as it tries to convince me it is. But it's not a wimp either. I can't permit myself to under-estimate it. I have already done so at my own peril.

Then you might be interested in reviewing Castaneda's "The Fire From Within", specifically the chapter on stalking and the attributes of being a warrior. You might also be interested in these two posts and the threads themselves with their linked references. Seeing how this stalking and timing plays out in the 'external' world may help you develop and implement a strategy for the 'internal' world.

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22.msg150108.html#msg150108

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,4347.msg29379.html#msg29379

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