What programs have YOU discovered?

[Tx22]

Anart, I read what you wrote and it helps to reread it whenever I feel weak; such helpful words!

Hi Stranger. Do you have an overall aim? Is there something you want to accomplish in life?

Overall, over minor aims, I want to know the objective reality of our world, living according to the truth and destroying everything in me which isn't real but lies, illusion and weakness. I want to get to know myself. Only then I can serve others with my life, which is something I deeply desire.

Hi Biomiast,

What I have discovered so far is: One must have an attitude as anart describes. No matter how much time you have, give what you can to learning. If your effort is sincere, Universe is there to help you and guide you.

I understand you. But I don't even know if there is such guiding universe, it's an assumption and often I doubt it... How can you really know that what you are doing is the right way? There are so many uncertainties in this world...

I think there are elementary books we all need to read like Fourth Way material, Big 5 etc., then get to know ourselves. These books are essential for understanding our reality. Rest of the books are also important for understanding the world we live in, but these are the priorities.

I think what holds me back is one strong program, which I observe it more and more clearly. I grew up inside my own world and all I had was my reading. So today my self-esteem depends on this, for example books. I think I am not a valuable person if I don't know everything, all important books. As a result I often read for the sake of reading so that I can say "Hey, look at me, I have read all those books, I am a valuable and intelligent person, know I can be accepted and people like me." So the problem is that I don't really get the concept or truly try to understand the content.  It's actually not easy for me to write this, because it is so insane, but this program rules me to an extent I always thought would be impossible. But through this I see glimpes of the true desire to know, but my programs hold me back...

And about losing your path, I have been away from this group for a while, and I can't express the importance of a group to point out errors in your thinking. Imagine you are reading the "right" books with your preconceptions, how can you move beyond them and understand the information? Only a network can provide you that.

What if, hypothetically, the network is biased? How can we know for sure it isn't?

It is my personal experience that acquiring knowledge from other sources, be it books, people or movies is not detrimental to one's quest, what is detrimental is stucking in hero-worship, assimilating and repeating the same words without thinking or feeling about it, using them because somebody you know said so. I have done this mistake in the past, repeating every word on this forum without understanding any of it, but as I moved past from that program, I can clearly see that the fault wasn't with the attitude of network, it was my attitude that is problematic. Unless you are in that situation, I believe there is nothing wrong with following the suggestion of the experts in the field on certain books that are necessary to understand our reality.   

Yeah, I also tend to do that, I notice that I am often far away from true thinking, it just doesn't feels like it is my thoughts but only what somebody else said.

[Ana]

Hi Biomiast,

What I have discovered so far is: One must have an attitude as anart describes. No matter how much time you have, give what you can to learning. If your effort is sincere, Universe is there to help you and guide you.

I understand you. But I don't even know if there is such guiding universe, it's an assumption and often I doubt it... How can you really know that what you are doing is the right way? There are so many uncertainties in this world...

Sometimes we expect that this "guiding universe" manifest itself with clear signs which we can differenciate from our ordinary life, but I think it could be seen in every act of will full of faith, in every situation there is an oportunity for us to see more, to understand more if we are ready to open our minds.

Have you ever find yourself doing things with a clear intent in mind but without preconceptions regarding the result, and finding how it develops untill a clear pattern could be seen?

It is up to you to see everything as an oportunity and venture to discover or isolate yourself and pretend that everything happens as you want it to, constricting the process.

You can learn from everything with the right state of mind but it doesn't works if learning becomes a course where you need to be at a definite time, in a definite place, with a definitive knowledge 

Are you practicing EE?

[Biomiast]

I understand you. But I don't even know if there is such guiding universe, it's an assumption and often I doubt it... How can you really know that what you are doing is the right way? There are so many uncertainties in this world...

Hi Stranger,

To be perfectly honest, I feel the same way you do. But what you and I are missing is that, we mention uncertainties, because we desire a specific outcome for us. Ana's post is a perfect example on how we should be thinking.

 I don't know what I do is right, and I don't believe a guiding universe, I often doubt it too. Yet, the point is not believing it I think. I operate under the assumption that there is a guiding universe, and as I do what is in front of me, I try not to expect anything from it. Ana said the Universe doesn't necessarily need to show us its divine work, sometimes it is in ordinary life and we fail to see it because we expect it to come and "fix" our problems supernaturally. This is something I also struggle with. Every single moment of the Universe is guiding us towards a specific outcome, it is just we don't know this outcome is. And since there are lots of uncertainties as you mentioned, reaching a specific outcome is mind boggling for our perception. And since what we experience for our growth is painful, we tend not to trust in Universe.

My signature is a Sufi poem describing exactly this: Universe gave us our lives as a gift, it is what honey is to the bees, yet when you look at your life, us, as bees, are in pain and suffering inside the honey, the life. It is such a bizarre image for me that a bee can be in pain inside honey. It is absurd, it is comical and it is sadly true for us. We must accept it, and we must embrace it that not all of our experiences will be pleasent and Universe doesn't show us that it is guiding us. I guess this is what Don Juan meant when he said: "Facing the Unknown Without Flinching"

I grew up inside my own world and all I had was my reading. So today my self-esteem depends on this, for example books. I think I am not a valuable person if I don't know everything, all important books. As a result I often read for the sake of reading so that I can say "Hey, look at me, I have read all those books, I am a valuable and intelligent person, know I can be accepted and people like me." So the problem is that I don't really get the concept or truly try to understand the content.

I think you assume that if you read all the necessary books, people in this network will show you more respect. Yet, it is not always what you read that counts. One can read concepts and repeat them to others, yet if there is no understanding, the words are kind of meaningless for him/her. I believe reading is important, but more than that, I like to sit and think about myself or life in general and what is "wrong" with me. Or I try to understand a program etc. These are as meaningful as reading a book. The book is just a tool to understand yourself. One can have all the repair tools to fix a machine, but if he/she doesn't know how to, what good will they bring?  I would suggest paying extra attention to the books you are reading and try to understand the concepts, what the writer means, how it all ties with what you have read thus far, how does it apply to your life etc.

What if, hypothetically, the network is biased? How can we know for sure it isn't?

If the whole network is biased, it is hard to tell. And we can't know for sure since we don't  know the whole truth. Yet, a biased person doesn't have a chance to correct his/her behaviour, but if the people in the network points this bias out to each other, chances are that the network will correct its mistake much more easily. And if the network contributes to achieve something positive in your life, something that you can't achieve by yourself, it is reasonable to stick around until you sense otherwise.   

[Buddy]

Hi Stranger. Do you have an overall aim? Is there something you want to accomplish in life?

Overall, over minor aims, I want to know the objective reality of our world, living according to the truth and destroying everything in me which isn't real but lies, illusion and weakness. I want to get to know myself. Only then I can serve others with my life, which is something I deeply desire.

Then I think the Work can help you with that. The universe is the widest possible context for any 'knowledge', so coming to know the objective reality of our world means expanding your knowledge base in every dimension to the limit of that context, OSIT.

How can you really know that what you are doing is the right way? There are so many uncertainties in this world...

Right, wrong, good, bad, up, down are all relative terms in our current state and must be hooked into Aim to be meaningful. There are logical uncertainties in this world when people don't know where their ground (of being) is.

I think what holds me back is one strong program, which I observe it more and more clearly. I grew up inside my own world and all I had was my reading. So today my self-esteem depends on this, for example books. I think I am not a valuable person if I don't know everything, all important books. As a result I often read for the sake of reading so that I can say "Hey, look at me, I have read all those books, I am a valuable and intelligent person, know I can be accepted and people like me." So the problem is that I don't really get the concept or truly try to understand the content.  It's actually not easy for me to write this, because it is so insane, but this program rules me to an extent I always thought would be impossible. But through this I see glimpes of the true desire to know, but my programs hold me back...

It sounds like you may be reading stuff that you can't translate to your life in the here and now and in practical terms. If you haven't read the very basic psychology books and applied them to yourself to confirm or falsify the ideas therein, then I recommend you do that. If you learn how narcissistic people turn us into the kind of people who eventually need Work, you would have a cartful of valuable knowledge you could share with others no matter where you are. That would help with part of your aim.

What if, hypothetically, the network is biased? How can we know for sure it isn't?

You seem to ask questions in absolute terms. The network is not capable of bias. Individuals are. In fact, I don't know anyone who has a point of view and is not biased in some sort of way, because the only alternative is omniscience. Omniscience is the universe's point of view, or having the widest possible context of something - the universe itself! Which is what we're after. So until the goal is reached, there will be bias, but you could be one who helps expose it where it exists so that everyone benefits.

Do you really know what bias means? I ask, because you didn't seem to be aware that, even if "the network" is biased, if you make a choice based on that (whether an action or inaction) then you have done so with bias towards the network's bias. That would not make you any different - let alone any better.

To make the point a bit clearer, let's assume there was a hydrogen bomb explosion on Earth and Mars at the same time. Forget about how "same time" was determined and let's just assume OK?

Let us also say there are three observers - one on Earth, one on Mars and one equally between both planets and far enough away to be able to look at both at the same time.

Now, obviously, the Earth observer is going to say the bomb on Earth exploded first. The observer on Mars is going to say the bomb on his planet exploded first and the third observer is going to say both bombs exploded simultaneously. So, who's right and un-biased and why does everybody say something different? What is the deeper knowledge or wider context in which all the apparent differences make sense as special cases of the one truth?

The answer is that everyone is right from his/her own point of view because the mere fact of having a POV means you don't have sight of all of something you need for a total and complete objective picture.

Completing the picture is what the network is for and you might even think that your posting on this thread is a help in that direction. For all of us. So thank you. 


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Edit: phrasing

[transientP]

how abouts this one  “each persons reactions should be predictable, don't cause ripples by doing something differently“
in other words; choose what kind of person you want to be from our following list...

 

[ctw5000]

I seem to have a program where I get emotional when complimented, or if attention is given to me for doing a good "deed".
I find it very strange when it happens.
Also I have  a programmed fear of being the center of attention for an extended period of time. I guess the latter could aslo cause the first program.

[Mikel]

Hi

Why I am fascinated by criminals? For example in movies like "Pulp fiction"?

Fascination by criminals
It came to me that it could be because they are able to break the rules. To be "free" from any constriction.
And the most important they are ready to die in whatever name of.

Fascination by heroes
This is analogical to heroes who are able to give their lives for making some good for others. And like criminals break rules of "good" society, heroes break rules of bad tyrants.

And common is readiness for dying and being stronger than fear and breaking rules, being stronger then society.

Why
Why I associate with hero or criminal?
I think to "incept" features which I do not see in myself.

Being strong, ready to die.
Sometimes I understand that and feel that. But on rare occasions.

Danger: being led by somebody who except complimentary features could represent all different kinds of "soul distortion" for example lack of conscience. Giving authority to somebody and loosing responsibility for my life. Arresting own development by projecting part of myself to others in contrary to searching unity or how to unite own parts.

Remedy:
To be strong and to be ready to die.
How:
To take care about myself in different kinds of layers: nutrition, toxins avoidance and detox, sleep, thoughts hygiene, beneficial thoughts cultivation, mediation, breathing in order to be as strong as possible.
But there will be always somebody stronger, more skilled or more intelligent than me.
And here is part for being ready to die - which may be also translated by accepting reality

Story of founding strength
Yesterday and today I found something working on my personalities:
First of all I found that there is something or somebody in the shadow who is rarely in my life visible but still having some influence on my actions, thoughts and feelings.
I have noticed his existence when making kind of psychotherapy. I had really strong enthusiasm for saying something which I thought was very important. I did not noticed then that that was some indication of some "programme".
I was questioned by my trainer why I wanted to say something so much having no consideration for others not even asking if somebody want to listen to it.
I found out that I am kind of aggressive but not in very bad way but still. After questioning me I was asked to sit on the scene to act like a demo for the group. I felt like a "Tiger" in circus. Trainer started to talk with me like I was "Tiger" in a polite and accepting my life way.
Tiger said about me (I was telling this as Tiger): He is frightened because he remembers some early incident and he thinks that he is doing fine making wall with his knowledge and creating distance. He thinks too much, which is unnecessary. He worries too much. I am strong, I do not look back and do not look forward. I am here and now. I am ready to die. I take what is. He is afraid of me and avoiding me. I could give him strength but he is afraid of me.

Well. Then I found out that "Tiger" could have been born in relation to some incident when I was 3 years old and he came to protect me and to allow me to survive.
This was yesterday. And today I found out that when I imagine that these two personalities meet each other and are merging or uniting then I feel strong. I feel strangely in good mood like something which was lost is back now. Imaging it was like first to draw two circles on the floor with common part and put myself in shoes of first personality (who was described by "Tiger")  and then imaging myself as "Tiger". Step 3 was to start from one of them and making small steps and getting closer to the common part. When I was in common part I was to imagining that those two are one and give each other their resources: strength and courage from Tiger merged with knowledge, cautiousness and intelect of first one.

This was experience of taking back something lost. I felt stronger and felt like I took care bout myself.
Maybe in some indirect way but for me this experience answers on how to take back projection of strength from others back to myself.

[Tristan]

I've especially identified rationalization and avoidance to flee when faced with difficult situations    that lead not knowing how to manage, because then is much more complicated issues. That means suffering for me and others indirectly 

[Psalehesost]

Work ideals imply pragmatism, as it furthers progress towards one's Aim.

As such, not being pragmatic implies not following Work ideals.

So, claiming to follow Work ideals while being non-pragmatic implies being a hypocrite.

Also, since any "high ideals" that run counter to pragmatism are counter to genuine Work ideals, holding on to both is contradictory and therefore implies lying to the self.


I can conclude, looking at my life, that I have been a hypocrite and lied to myself per the above all along, in many ways and in many situations. Very often I've clung, in the midst of an inner tension and rigidity, to various fixed ideas - with an undercurrent of fear or anxiety about every single trivial choice or action and constant second-guessing, in a constant though subdued mental activity not felt very much.

Though its effects were later to be sensed, and eventually begun to be recognized for what they were, instead of wrongly interpreted as being something completely different, as they had been for years. Years during which this activity had gone on a great many times a day, a fact I have only begun to vaguely recognize now.

[Acid Yazz]

OOOOkay...

This is a great topic!

I remember seeing it before but it wasn't until reading Fragments of an Unknown Teaching that I started to understand more about what you mean by 'programs' and therefore being able to observe myself in search of these.

I studied a little bit of Psychology and I also did a therapy which consisted in the analysis of myself. That was really helpful for me, because I could see and understand some of my personal issues and their causes. And I love analyzing myself... lol! Yet, this forum and the Gurdjieff's ideas seem to be way more 'eye openers' than what 2 years of psychology and 4 years of therapy were for me.

Just a few days ago, I was on the bus and I started thinking about the 'programs' and for a moment my head started going from one program to another until the point I realized that everything I am is: PROGRAMS, PROGRAMS and more PROGRAMS . LOL

I know, it may sound exaggerated, but, honestly, it was one of those moments in life when you realize something 'big'. The feeling of clarity was extraordinary. I actually started to laugh at myself saying to my self: 'It's unbelievable that all we think we are actually isn't what we really are. Is all programs.' I mean, I had 'conceptually' noticed that before, but I didn't really have the 'experience' of truly understanding it (and maybe I still don't understand it completely). I wanted to get to my computer and write this down at that moment, because, as usually happens for what I have read here, at that moment I had the whole idea very clear and I could identify the programs specifically, but then, my attention was drown to something else and I forgot what I've seen in that moment of clarity.

Fortunately, there is this forum, and this topic. 

By reading it I remembered at least the feeling I've got that day. I started taking notes of the programs mentioned by the other members that I could find in myself, and finally the notes where so long that I realized that if was going to mention all the programs I think I have too, I will make a HUGE post that will probably be unreadable. LOL And this is when I remembered the feeling on the bus. It is actually all PROGRAMS so, I probably have almost every single program mentioned by the others. 

So... I decided that I'm going to try to keep everything I've read here in my mind for some time and constantly observe myself with all this new information in order to identify the few programs that are the MOST IMPORTANT ones, or, the ones who get to be activated more times and during longer periods of time as well.

I have a clue...  Thanks to those years of therapy and the self analysis I tend to do, I think I've spotted a few of the deepest issues within myself. Yet, I do not want to take my assumption for granted, so I still want to re-check before I share them with you. And I guess this is a "try to be perfect and don't make mistakes" program.  lol

So. I'm sorry that I write without really sharing any programs [this one is another one, I guess... lol] But I just wanted to share this thoughts and tell you that I'll soon be posting about the 'major' programs I find.

Once again, THANK YOU ALL! (for giving me and all the members the opportunity to expand awareness about the self and the reality.)

 
 

bye.

Edit: spelling

[hallowed]

Is this a program ?

"You can heal yourself by giving to someone what you never received growing up."

[Oxajil]

Is this a program ?

"You can heal yourself by giving to someone what you never received growing up."

It could be. It depends on many things, and especially the situation. Questions you may want to ask yourself; has that what has not been given to me resulted in a behavior that I am not able to give? Do I understand what it is that I didn't receive? And why, etc. The books on Narcissism can be a great help in this, and networking helps too. Perhaps learning first about what it is that you didn't receive, and how it has affected you, and how you can try to give it to yourself, first, if possible, will then enable you to some extent to be able to give to others. And not necessarily in order to heal yourself, or to give it simply because it wasn't given to you, but just because it's the right thing to do in a particular situation, if suitable. Fwiw.

[hallowed]

Is this a program ?

"You can heal yourself by giving to someone what you never received growing up."

It could be. It depends on many things, and especially the situation. Questions you may want to ask yourself; has that what has not been given to me resulted in a behavior that I am not able to give? Do I understand what it is that I didn't receive? And why, etc. The books on Narcissism can be a great help in this, and networking helps too. Perhaps learning first about what it is that you didn't receive, and how it has affected you, and how you can try to give it to yourself, first, if possible, will then enable you to some extent to be able to give to others. And not necessarily in order to heal yourself, or to give it simply because it wasn't given to you, but just because it's the right thing to do in a particular situation, if suitable. Fwiw.

Thanks Oxajil. Those questions help clarify. It makes me think, that if you give to others because you dont want them to go through what happened to you - then this might not be giving correctly? or maybe it can be ok depending on situation as you mentioned? thanks for that.

[Jones]

Is this a program ?

"You can heal yourself by giving to someone what you never received growing up."

It could be. It depends on many things, and especially the situation. Questions you may want to ask yourself; has that what has not been given to me resulted in a behavior that I am not able to give? Do I understand what it is that I didn't receive? And why, etc. The books on Narcissism can be a great help in this, and networking helps too. Perhaps learning first about what it is that you didn't receive, and how it has affected you, and how you can try to give it to yourself, first, if possible, will then enable you to some extent to be able to give to others. And not necessarily in order to heal yourself, or to give it simply because it wasn't given to you, but just because it's the right thing to do in a particular situation, if suitable. Fwiw.

Thanks Oxajil. Those questions help clarify. It makes me think, that if you give to others because you dont want them to go through what happened to you - then this might not be giving correctly? or maybe it can be ok depending on situation as you mentioned? thanks for that.

I think that if you do it mechanically, then perhaps it's a program.  If you take in to consideration free will, and know that the person that you are giving to is asking for it, then maybe not so.

Editted to Add:

As to which is which, I think that there is a clue in how you feel or what you think if your attempts to give are rejected.

[hallowed]

I think that if you do it mechanically, then perhaps it's a program.  If you take in to consideration free will, and know that the person that you are giving to is asking for it, then maybe not so.

Editted to Add:

As to which is which, I think that there is a clue in how you feel or what you think if your attempts to give are rejected.

That is good food for thought. I think the last point about how someone reacts to having their giving rejected by another is a very good one. cheers