Narcissism vs psychopathy

Hi,

I was wondering if there has been some conclusions about what are the main differences between narcissism and psychopathy. In particular, is there anything in the behaviour that one can use as clues as to which one it is. I Googled "Narcissism vs psychopathy" but mostly found stuff from Vaknin, which, considering other threads on this forum about him, probably aren't very helpful or accurate.

I read another thread on this forum which makes the distinction between a sleeping conscience (Narcissism) and an absent conscience (Psychopathy). While this is probably entirely correct it does not help with figuring out if a person is one or the other. Then again, in the end it might not make that much of a difference with regard to how to deal with the person.

Anyway, any insights would be appreciated.

In a book by Johan Cullberg (1985) he writes the following about narcissism (pp.145):

(My translation)
A characteristic of the narcissistic personality is a grandiose self-image. To this belongs a extreme self centering, often in combination with a noteworthy lack of interest and empathy for others. The high self view is often very contradictory with a deep feeling of longing to be admired and be acknowledged. Another characteristic is the lack of dependence and the failure to experience deep feelings of sorrow and depression. (...) On a deeper level one can see that the narcissistic personality have a strong envy against persons that have something good they lack. They can idealize these persons so that in a way they will get control over them and get a supplement to their own narcissism. In the same way they can put down others.


About the author (from the book):

Doctorate in psychiatric and psychoanalyst with much experience from clinical and scientific work.

Don't know if this will help but It might be a good starting point.

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=516&lsel= <---Narcissism

I don't think I answered you question but there is so much material on psychopathy on the site(s) and in Political Ponerology that it might be a good idea to compare the two :)

(yeah I tried to find a article with Narc. VS psych but didn't find anything good either)

GRiM said:

In a book by Johan Cullberg (1985) he writes the following about narcissism (pp.145):

(My translation)
A characteristic of the narcissistic personality is a grandiose self-image. To this belongs a extreme self centering, often in combination with a noteworthy lack of interest and empathy for others. The high self view is often very contradictory with a deep feeling of longing to be admired and be acknowledged. Another characteristic is the lack of dependence and the failure to experience deep feelings of sorrow and depression. (...) On a deeper level one can see that the narcissistic personality have a strong envy against persons that have something good they lack. They can idealize these persons so that in a way they will get control over them and get a supplement to their own narcissism. In the same way they can put down others.

Don't know if this will help but It might be a good starting point.

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Thanks for the quote. It sort of helps and not-helps. The particular person which I'm having trouble to figure out seems to be basically narcissistic, by the above description and others, but what complicates it is that there's a certain vindictiveness about him combined with coldblooded lying when confronted with it, that I had not previously associated with narcissism, but rather with psychopathy. He seems to go a little too far when it comes to not only putting others down, but actively forcing others down.

But in the end, maybe it doesn't matter too much when it comes to how to deal with him. I'll probably recommend the tips from In Sheep's Clothing when it comes to actually handling this guy, which I have had much use of in the past and they seem to work reasonably well.

Psychopath(y) with narcissis(ic)m traits might be a term for him/(it).

I think that a lot of so-called narcissists are just sub-criminal psychopaths. Because people expect psychopaths to be violent (and most of them aren't), the more "socially compensated" psychopaths may often be considered to be just narcissists.

I think the key clue is this: is there EVIDENCE of any kind of empathy, remorse, caring, etc - that exists independently of what the person says? Most often, you can only know that if you conduct a close and careful study of the individual AND get a lot of input from others closely associated with him/her.

It's not so easy.

Laura said:

I think that a lot of so-called narcissists are just sub-criminal psychopaths. Because people expect psychopaths to be violent (and most of them aren't), the more "socially compensated" psychopaths may often be considered to be just narcissists.

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In this case there is a sort of ironic detail, because the guy is one of the best martial artists in the world, and has won UFC tournaments. But his social behaviour (or lack thereof) is tearing up the MA organization (which I also belong to), and which is why I'm trying to figure out who and what he is really.

AFAICT his local club has been partly ponerized already, whereas the international one has not, and is struggling with how to deal with the situation. Our sensei is very unhappy about it, and he is the opposite of what this guy represents. There is some urgency with fixing it, but it is probably more important to do it correctly rather than hastily.

I think the key clue is this: is there EVIDENCE of any kind of empathy, remorse, caring, etc - that exists independently of what the person says? Most often, you can only know that if you conduct a close and careful study of the individual AND get a lot of input from others closely associated with him/her.

It's not so easy.

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But would such evidence of empathy etc. be useful in determining if he's a psychopath or narcissist (which was the initial question), or only if he is one of those or not? If the first, then how would it make a difference considering the lack of empathy in both states (AFAIK anyway), and if the latter, that is pretty much already settled I think.

From Handbook of Psychopathy edited by Christopher J. Patrick, chapter 3:

Leary (1957) saw psychopathy as represented by a hostile or aggressive-sadistic style, in which fear is inspired in others through subtle forms of critical, humiliating, and punitive interactions. Adjacent to this style in the circle is the hostile-dominant style represented by narcissistic personality, and reflected in self-love, arrogance and exploitation. The former is motivated by desire to humiliate, the latter by a need for status.

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Narcissistic PD is often comorbid with psychopathy (i.e., a psychopath can be diagnosed with both personality disorders). The narcissistic PD correlates more with factor one (low-affect/callous) than factor two (antisocial behavior) of psychopathy. Some researchers, however, say that to distinguish APD from NPD, "narcissistic persons will feel guilty and remorseful when confronted with the negative effects of their exploitative use of others" (ibid, 163). I think this distinction may apply to narcissism (as defined by the Narcissistic Personality Inventory), but no NPD. A lot of researchers think of NPD as sub-criminal/sub-clinical psychopathy.

hkoehli said:

Some researchers, however, say that to distinguish APD from NPD, "narcissistic persons will feel guilty and remorseful when confronted with the negative effects of their exploitative use of others" (ibid, 163).

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This is the one that I thought of when I heard some of the stories of what he had done. No guilt and remorse, and blatant lying to cover things up.

Thanks for all your help guys! Much appreciated.

this video was send to me today with the following text:

"Hello, please view and dont forget to check us out if you are on/ signed into face book, link attached with the video. Thanks"

Personality Trait's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMss1ruzwYY

I have a doubt about my father, I better ask so I may get a clue to how to treat with him. So if you can help me a little thanks. I have read about psychopaths so I know how they are and how they hide their personality, but I have to ask because it seems a psychopath character is not related completely to a narcissistic being. I am reading to the books recommended about psychopaths and about psychology, I need to get the one about narcissistic family.

I don't know how to say this, but my father is those who become the most known pediatrist from this state, he is recognized to be an intelligent person, the president of whatever association, and if you talk with him, you may say that he is nothing more than just a honey God-given man. And he wants me to end school and cares about what I need for my homework, and for my needs, a little altruistic. But :/ I have known his bad face that nobody knows, he always, always make others suffer from his family, he made suffer my mother a lot, he made suffer his third wife, and he has made me suffer too and his wife’s daughter. In a psychological way. I never liked to be as he wanted - because my mother taught me to be independent or something like that - and he becomes very anger because of that. Without saying that he is always criticizing my mother because of something that is not really his problem, making jokes about her behavior and habits, and do the same to all in his family, like trying to feel and be the better the one without errors and mistakes.

When I started to read about the diet, I've read about the coffee, and he always offered to me coffee, and even if I didn't want it, I took it. But after reading about it I told him in the moment he offered to me “no thanks father”, and he went to the kitchen, and then he returned with a cup of coffee and I said “no dad I told you I don't want it” and he argue with me that I didn't. And the next morning he did the same, criticize me for everything and finding the little excuse to scold me and ruin my day, I mean, I had problems with my father because I don't know what influence he started to had that he was always approaching to me as a king or as darth vader or I don't know lol. And trying to dominate me, and I didn't like it, and do you know why?, he always told me - what the people is going to say about you... about me, the son of ____ add whatever name you imagine- and I was like... who the hell cares?? I don't care really –A program for me indeed to answer in bad mood - and he got always mad that even being subtle, he never did what he wanted, change me. And there is more, but the thing is that always was what he wanted, never asked what I want, he always asked to me, to you know, have some bullets so he may know how to torture me in his argumentations.

After this, when I learned about not to argue about the material, it was with him because he always argue that I was crazy, stupid, young, immature, some kind of schizophrenic guy that sees things and that maybe, the lizards had contact with me and that he was going to pray to Jesus so I may be saved... I mean look at the contradiction, he said that what Laura talks is pure fiction –without forgetting that Jesus was created in the divine and holy existence with the angels ‘s chorus in the back - and that what I see is because I am crazy, first of all, I have never seen nothing, and then he says that the lizards have contact with me so he is going to save me with Jesus so he accepts that they exist that contradicts that just the people that is crazy as me believes in lizards ETs, lol. After, he told to every one of his friends that I believed in ETs so everyone treat me as some lunatic. And for god’s sake, I have a juvenile mother; can’t I have a wise father?? Instead of helping me, and understand that I was very young at that age with lots of… dream awake and existential problems he criticizes me and try to feel in the god’s hand trying to save me.

I believe that he believes that he is the pillar for his family, he earns lot of money to help his mother and others, but the problem is that he has a high self-esteem of himself, and acts like god, he thinks that he took you out of the mud, and that you are a simple worm, ad he uses that fact to manipulate you so you may see him as a good person or to see him as perfect and not see his errors if you want to point them as I did that just awoke his furious beast in that moment. Whenever the public was there, and we started a little discussion, he gave me the worst humiliations (based on assumptions from him) I had in my life, counting that I was publicly exposed. He did too with my mother and other family members, ohh, but wait, when convenient in front of the public he was the one that just wanted to help everyone and to be a good samaritan.
But the problem here is that he had a hard childhood, but in some way he didn’t care, he was concentrated on the school, and the punishments to him, physically, was like just his mother angry, nothing more, he laughs about it. So with some characteristics about him, I want to know what he is, just a person with complex, traumas?? Or a narcissistic being, or some schizoidal psychopath?? Because he has lot theories about god and Jesus, and he is supposedly a very good teacher and has captivated the Mormon churches with his speeches, spreading his theories. Or am I a bad son? Lol

cubbex said:

So with some characteristics about him, I want to know what he is, just a person with complex, traumas?? Or a narcissistic being, or some schizoidal psychopath?? Because he has lot theories about god and Jesus, and he is supposedly a very good teacher and has captivated the Mormon churches with his speeches, spreading his theories. Or am I a bad son? Lol

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Based on what you have written, he seems like an authoritarian personality who likes to dominate his family members. You may want to take a look at Bob Altmeyer's "The Authoritarians". It is available on the internet at _http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/.

[quote author=cubbex]
I have a doubt about my father, I better ask so I may get a clue to how to treat with him. So if you can help me a little thanks.
[/quote]

Getting out of his clutches would seem like a good idea - but that depends on how old you are and other specifics of your situation.

If I were in your place, I would not share what I learn here with him. If he asks about it, I would say that I believed in stuff I read here (like ETs etc) for a while but now I have realized my mistake. In effect, I would say "yes father" to what he says in front of him and continue doing what I believe in private. This is called strategic enclosure in Work terms.

If he tries to force you to eat or drink stuff that you would rather avoid, then you may want to tell him that you are developing some health problems from eating/drinking that stuff. You may need to stand your ground in this regard.

Try to minimize the opportunities that you think he may use to humiliate you. If such situations continue to come up, you could tell him that you felt hurt/humiliated by what he said. If you decide to do that, I would suggest sticking to the point of how you felt bad in the situation - in other words keep the focus on yourself rather than making it about him.

It is a difficult situation for you to be in. However, it does give you an opportunity to learn a lot about the Work related concepts in a very practical way (see petty tyrant ). Till the time comes when you can be independent (assuming you are not at present) and can lead your own life, you will need to conserve your energy in your interactions with your father so that you can use it to continue learning and engage in constructive activity.

fwiw

obyvatel said:

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Oh yeah, at that time I didn’t knew about strategic enclosure and the problems you get if you don’t apply it. So I was not as that fool to talk about these things again with him, every time I get intimate with him, he used to criticize me, to try (he could not) to make me feel like stupid lol. So I don’t talk with him anymore, really, our relationship is very cold, and I am going to be out this house in the next months. We had a discussion the last month and he didn’t let me to explain my points well, he is so cold and kind of ridicules any deep emotion expression, he says that people is dramatic and without control over themselves (lol when he can’t control himself when he cannot control something he wants), so I didn’t get angry, because I understood that my ego was the aim on these people all my life so they may hurt me, so this time he tried in every possible angle but couldn’t do it anymore, to convince me I was wrong. So it was like a therapy for him, because he vented out a lot with me. Now I apply the strategic enclosure and I know that this material and more in relation, is not for everyone in general, but it is for everyone in particular.
I answered to him in writing expressing as I do better, my disgust about his behavior and he understood and now says that he is the victim and I did hurt him, so really I told him that I am tired to deal with his manipulations and games, so I am out of the house ending school’s year. He said ok, and ok for me, freedom for me. The fun and interesting part is that he always made me sad, even without the intention, like triggering some program.

Thanks for the advice, I know I was trying to apply strategic but maybe not as that good. I don’t care really if I don´t get money from him I want to be free of his presence. If that’s a petty tyrant how it would be a big tyrant. And I asked because he is not as that bad or maybe he is, but why with me has to become as that manipulative, and teasing me like a bullying father, a poisonous scorpion. Even more fun because his astrological sign is Scorpio. I think I needed emotional help when I got on this house.

cubbex said:

obyvatel said:

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Oh yeah, at that time I didn't knew about strategic enclosure and the problems you get if you don't apply it.

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Hi, I agree very much with Obyvatel advice. But I would like to tell you this:

"Strategic Enclosure" is what you need just to deal with people who does not see much meaning in any kind of "awakening" but, if you are near (So near) of a probable psychopath, what you need is something like a "Strategic Bunker".

And to construct that bunker: Lie. If possible, don't say a word which is not a, more or less, calculated lie. Not even a word of truth.

I've found lying the best antidote to all kinds of emotional predators; Lying as a psychological camouflage. That`s is their best weapon too, by the way.

Good luck,

Lying as "intentional insincerity" is an idea of the Work. However, I would be very discriminate about lying, as lying is a dangerous path to follow. Telling half-truths is better than lying. Just don't say anything, or say only what wouldn't harm you. That's a great way to develop intellectual flexibility, by the way. But lying - no, I would not recommend it, because that, imho, may make you a psychopath. If you choose an easy way once, it will be even easier next time, and after a while, you may not be able to tell the truth for the fear that anybody can be a psychopath or a narcissist or whatever, and thus create this unnecessary fence around yourself.

arpaxad said:

If you choose an easy way once, it will be even easier next time, and after a while, you may not be able to tell the truth for the fear that anybody can be a psychopath or a narcissist or whatever, and thus create this unnecessary fence around yourself.

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I have, personally, found boundaries of this sort essential. It is not necessary to tell everyone everything - I believe Confucius said this. It is, in fact, more considerate to allow others to tread their own path, and forcing ideas on them can have repercussions that are difficult to handle. The Narcissistic Family was mentioned in this thread and can help to grasp this if needed. An easy read.

There is an example on the cassiopaea website of hiding someone from a Nazi. Is it then good to tell the truth about the whereabouts of the hunted person?

In any case lies "just happen" all the time, often when we identify with a little i, identify with a complex, or wish to present ourselves a certain way. To observe it is what is essential, so we do not lie to ourselves - and this already is a statement, if one has external consideration as an aim.

Clearly there is much to be added to or edited in what I've written.