Astrology, mechanical programs and the Work

[Endymion]

I decided to post this in 'The Work' as the essential focus of my question is using astrology as a tool for becoming more conscious. (Note to moderators: please feel free to move this to a different section if more appropriate.)

Yesterday I met with a couple of contributors to the forum, and at one point found myself overwhelmed by an old program: feelings of inadequacy, uselessness, mechanicalness, feeling like a complete and weird outsider - with no easy way to move out of the program that was running in me. This arose in me in the afternoon and I awoke several times in the night thinking very deeply about the mechanical way I had spoken during our meeting, and feeling quite shocked by seeing how deeply mechanical I really am. The shock is still resonating in me (at 11am this morning). How difficult it seems to be to behave in a truly conscious way!

This morning I checked out the astrology for the time and found some interesting things in my transits, which provide an almost exact model for my experience, in terms of theme and timing, and likely responses/reactions to such a situation.

My current hypothesis is that the birth chart is a map of our 'machine' and that transits - if we are interested in the Work - help us at those times to focus on certain programs and some of the little I's related to the quality of the transit.

I also found that the transit of Mars to my natal Saturn over the past year reflects the timing of my search for a new job, and the very likely timing of starting the new job, with somewhat uncanny precision.

Does all this imply that I am simply an unconscious reaction machine, or that I am in tune with life and the universe, or a mixture of both? Or is it just a coincidence?

[Spiral Out]

I have had similar thoughts about the Work in relation to Astrology. Personally I have learned a lot about me through Astrology. I don't mean the typical shallow sun sign horoscopes but actually working with a professional astrologer and making a personal birth chart.

It has helped me to get a more objective view of myself, my weaknesses  as well as strengths and talents, the lessons to be learned and integrated.
Astrology is like a tool one can use to understand one's personality more objectively and so be able to shape that personality to let the real "I" act through it.  At least that's how I perceive it.

Certain transits do have an influence/impact collectively and personally. Whoever is well versed in astrology can attest in that.

Does all this imply that I am simply an unconscious reaction machine, or that I am in tune with life and the universe, or a mixture of both? Or is it just a coincidence?

Not unconscious anymore if you are aware of it. I certainly think that astrology can help to become more aware of one's own reactionary tendencies based on the "Law of Accident". Once aware it is up to you how to react to it. Good Astrology never predicts anything. It just shows certain tendencies/influences, kinda like a "weather forecast". How one reacts to this "weather" depends on the person's level of self-awareness.

For example I am Aquarius with Moon in Cancer and Rising Cancer. Being Aquarius (air) makes me more intellectual and detached, but the Cancer energy (water) gives me quite an emotional depth which I used to be quite a victim to as the Moon (ruler of Cancer) changes signs every three days or say. Major ups and downs. I always had difficulties balancing my intellect with my emotional life. Over the years of self-work I have learned not to be a victim to my own (reactionary) emotions anymore. Well, it still happens here and there but not that extreme. Astrology has helped me to integrate and become more conscious of the inner process.
Cancer has also a very nurturing and healing effect, very sensitive. It's the sign of the "mother" and "healer" so to speak. I've learned to use this energy in  my profession as a bodyworker/massage therapist, a work that came "easy" to me in the sense of making use of my sensitivity more constructively to help others.

Interestingly, an astrologer told me about ten years ago, that whatever I do, it will be related to healing. Back then I had no idea what I would be doing now. Now I don't think that he predicted anything. I just think astrological insight has helped me to integrate/work on my three centers better and make them to better use rather than being a victim to them in an unconscious reactionary manner.  And by becoming conscious/aware I am able to more realize/apply my potential/talents and be of service.

The ultimate realization of this is well put in a quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson:

"Every man has his own vocation. The talent is the call.
There is one direction in which all space is open to him.
He has faculties silently inviting him thither to endless exertion.
He is like a ship in a river; he runs against obstructions on every side but one;
on that side all obstruction is taken away, and he sweeps serenely over God's depths into an infinite sea.
This talent and this call depend on his organisation, or the mode in which a general soul incarnates in him.
 He inclines to do something which is easy to him, and good when it is done, but which no other man can do.
He has no rival.
For the more truly he consults his own powers, the more difference will his work exhibit from the work of any other.
 When he is true and faithful, his ambition is exactly proportional to his powers.
By doing his work he makes the need felt which only he can supply."



On another note, I also find astrology a very valuable tool for parenting. I don't have any kids, but I know that my parents would have had it easier with my complex emotional life as a kid if they knew astrology a bit and therefore had more insight into my inner life which I wasn't able to express and was a reactionary/mechanical victim to.

[Miss.K]

Does all this imply that I am simply an unconscious reaction machine, or that I am in tune with life and the universe, or a mixture of both? Or is it just a coincidence?

Opening an old thread with my 2 cents;

I have also found that I'm very predictable, when it comes to transits and progressions.
Sometimes it's annoying, (like "oh it shall get better in 30 years") and sometimes comforting (job/money is coming in a month or two, or "that particular pain shall be over next month")
In that way, to me Astrology is as practical as a weather report, when one has to be outside. I can't make it not rain, but I can put on a raincoat, or postpone trip if it looks like earth quakes and volcanoes (though those have a tendency to knock on the door anyways, but at least I'm half prepared)

What I find is that there is lower and higher frequencies of each energy/ interaction of energies, and by adding conciousness, and applying free will, one can sometimes alter the experiences, to be hmm.....more constructive experiences. Or at least avoid adding to the chaos, just like deciding to postpone killing ones husband, until being sure that one isn't PMS, can be useful (humour intended)

For instance, with planetary configuration indicating not funny financial ruin for a year,

1. I can feel miserable when being to poor for what is funny during a year,

2. Or I can while feeling miserable about being too poor for what is funny, use the lack of money to stop eating junk, and go on a healthy diet of fatty meat, get fitter due to walking -due to lack of car, face a few demons due to the lack of substitutes, and meditate a little on how satisfaction becomes more apparent, when desire subsides a little due to starvation of it's invading needs,
so less becomes more...

-Maybe a bit cheesy, but better than nothing, and therefore preferable to the first option.

I find that Astrology can help pointing in the direction of how one can alter experiences that way, when thinking about what the higher manifestation of that energy would be, and try to adjust behaviour in that direction, and thereby work with the time instead of against it.

Astrology made me realize that I'm a complete reaction machine, which is why it caught my interest, as I thought the first step of breaking free of influences would be to know what the influence is, just like it helps to know if one is PMS, (by the way PMS seems to have gone after changing diet)
I found that what I previously thought was my successes in life, would have been hard to avoid due to lucky configurations, so they weren't that impressive, but that it has released some guilt about bad experiences, as they would have been hard to avoid as well, due to difficult configurations, even if I had been better, or smarter. (though had I been better and smarter, I might had chosen a different time of birth, I don't know)

But I have wondered, if being awake, would totally put one above being influenced, or if one just gets a lot better at navigating in any weather, without having ones core shock up by the influences all the time.

I once read an article about an experiment someone had made, testing reaction to a loud explosion sound, when one had previously been warned of the sound coming.
The result for normal people was visible shock movement of body. The result for highly trained military Air force people was non visible, but measurable with electrodes, shock movement of the body. But for Buddhist monks, in the experiment, there was no reaction, not even measurable with electrodes to the loud sound.
When asked how they did it, they explained that when one knows the sound is coming, it isn't more disturbing than far away birds in the sky.

Perhaps it is the same with the planetary influences, they become like birds in the sky, when one reaches a certain level

But until then, looking forward to Jupiter transiting natal Venus, and expect a break from poverty, and if I'm really lucky I could get a pony
(dream on)

[graeme15b]

 Great posts above!, I've been interested in astrology for many years and now of the opinion that astrology is a helpful stepping stone to greater knowledge. Astrology can also become a stumbling block if not used within certain perimeters.
 Planetary configurations, aspects, sign positions etc are like a blueprint. This blueprint describes ones inclinations and mechanical nature. Transits are like the mechanical nature of the world & others interacting with the the mechanical nature of oneself. Progressions, solar arcs are like the natural sequence of development of ones mechanical nature as it unfolds step by step. Comparison horoscopes describe how ones mechanical nature interacts with anothers mechanical nature. One can be conscious of the mechanical nature of oneself & others, yet can still be swept along with it. A "positive" configuration or a "negative" configuration are still mechanical however pleasant or unpleasant.
 When one begins to develop ones will, astrological influences will still influence ones lower centres & mechanism. However the individual (funny word that) will now be struggling to direct ones life with applied will against the vast current of mechanism. This struggle can go on for years. From here i can only speculate that when ones will and higher centres have been fully developed the astrological influences will still influence ones machine, however the individual with a developed will and higher centres acts or does not according to his or her will. Hopefully someone can add, correct perhaps, or clarify this fascinating topic.

[SeekinTruth]

Great posts above!, I've been interested in astrology for many years and now of the opinion that astrology is a helpful stepping stone to greater knowledge. Astrology can also become a stumbling block if not used within certain perimeters.
 Planetary configurations, aspects, sign positions etc are like a blueprint. This blueprint describes ones inclinations and mechanical nature. Transits are like the mechanical nature of the world & others interacting with the the mechanical nature of oneself. Progressions, solar arcs are like the natural sequence of development of ones mechanical nature as it unfolds step by step. Comparison horoscopes describe how ones mechanical nature interacts with anothers mechanical nature. One can be conscious of the mechanical nature of oneself & others, yet can still be swept along with it. A "positive" configuration or a "negative" configuration are still mechanical however pleasant or unpleasant.
 When one begins to develop ones will, astrological influences will still influence ones lower centres & mechanism. However the individual (funny word that) will now be struggling to direct ones life with applied will against the vast current of mechanism. This struggle can go on for years. From here i can only speculate that when ones will and higher centres have been fully developed the astrological influences will still influence ones machine, however the individual with a developed will and higher centres acts or does not according to his or her will. Hopefully someone can add, correct perhaps, or clarify this fascinating topic.

I don't know all that much about Astrology, but I'm fascinated by it. I just wanted to point out that in your post above, you say "developing the higher centers" and "higher centers have been fully developed." It's my understanding that those who have higher centers, are born with them fully developed and fully functioning. It's the wrong and slow and unbalanced working of the lower centers that prevent the communications from the higher centers from reaching us. So the lower centers have to be fully developed in a harmonious way -- equillibrated -- for the higher centers to begin to work through us.

Did you mean developing the lower centers so that contact could be made with the higher centers and thus developing real will?

[graeme15b]

Hi Truth Seeker, thanks for your input! Yes i worded that wrong. Meant to say working with the lower centres. A person with higher centres present will need to work on the lower centres to allow contact with their higher centres. Thanks for pointing this out!

[obyvatel]

   This is what Gurdjieff had to say about astrology

   One of us asked him what his views on astrology were, whether there was anything of value in the more or less known theories of astrology.
"Yes," said G., "it depends upon how they are understood. They can be of value and they can be without value. Astrology deals with only one part of man, with his type, his essence—it does not deal with personality, with acquired qualities. If you understand this you understand what is of value in astrology."

   Astrology may help in providing some information about some strong prevalent planetary influence as well as the effect of the same on a particular person. The problem that arises with interpretation of such messages is the vagueness associated with them. David Mcraney talks about subjective validation in his book "You Are Not So Smart".
  He gives a  personal assessment as follows

   You have a need for other people to like and admire you, and yet you tend to be critical of yourself. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. You have considerable unused capacity that you have not turned to your advantage. Disciplined and self-controlled on the outside, you tend to be worried and insecure on the inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You also pride yourself on being an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. But you have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable and sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary and reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be rather unrealistic.


   Does this sound accurate? Does it describe you?

   It should. It describes everyone.

   All the above statements came from a 1948 experiment by Bertram R. Forer. He gave his students a personality test and told them each one had been personally assessed, but then gave everyone the same analysis.

    He asked his students to look over the statements and rate them for accuracy. On average, they rated the bogus analysis as 85% correct - as if it had been personally prepared to describe each of them. The block of text above was actually a mishmash of lines from horoscopes collected by Forer for the experiment.

   Astrology as a discipline perhaps provides symbolic knowledge but to decode the symbols in a practically useful manner, one would need to have a good handle on one's essence as well as personality biases. By its nature, astrological predictions are personal and the way human beings are by default, there is a tendency to be taken in by vague statements which appear to be personally tailored. We tend to indulge in what Mcraney called "subjective validation".

   It seems that the "signal" content coming from astrology is weakened by the "noise" coming from the biases of our false personality. So, extra caution is needed to use it as a practical tool for Work on the self.  I do not trust myself enough to personally extract significant self knowledge from astrology - so I tend to avoid it.

fwiw 

   

[Griller]

Astrology isn't the easiest subject because another person's head's content isn't something you can grab with your hand and say "this is what there is". It's subjective and relative.

One thing about astrology or astro-psychology has helped me with coming to terms with my inner self is the dividence to four and three: four elements and three modes. It's not just the dividence itself, but combining those senses. Ken Wilder and Jung had their own classification for the four elements, those and horoscopes themselves are useful in viewing your self. Just grabbing to a single word doesn't work.. what you guys have said here for ages: three blind men and elephant technique, where you are the three blind men seeing the descriptions. I've noticed Mcraney's phenomena in horoscopes, even good ones, but the point is it's not so much about which position the planets are in: it's more about having the planets help map the universal energies flowing in everything, since they are believed to flow in the same pattern as our psyche and a lot of stuff. It may be a very subjective research, and you shouldn't restrict yourself to just astrology's field but form your own research of it if you're really interested on the subject, if you ask me.

I think the astrology charts are good pointers to our innate talents, but we can still make our own place in this world without relying on on our talents. If you're more on the thinking (air / objective collective) side just get that side into harmony with your emotions (water / subjective collective), and same with intuition (fire / subjective individual) with sensation/5-sense stuff (earth / objective individual). It's easier to form links between these with meditation. But thinking outside the box is another challenge... I wonder if these four are what you call 2D or 3D here. I'm still a 1D or 2D in that sense

[kenlee]

Astrology isn't the easiest subject because another person's head's content isn't something you can grab with your hand and say "this is what there is". It's subjective and relative.

If I remember correctly Gurdjieff spoke of Astrology in terms of the planets and their combined influences as being like a color projector projecting different colored lights onto humanity, each color having a certain kind of affect on the masses of humanity. At one point in time one color will predominate, another point in time another will predominate and so on. Kinda like that. Then humanity will be affected correspondingly. I don't have the book with me but I think it was in the book Views from The Real World. As to how the collective dramas would unfold on the planet as a result of these influences is something that I think we can't really predict but I guess there would be a certain kind of bias to it as determined by the "lighting" so to speak.

[Griller]

kenlee, I've red similiar stuff about astrology. They say it's not that planets affect how we human beings and other things in this place are colored, nor vice versa, but that the same color resonates to both planets and us and to everything. Whether that's true or not, it's a good scanning of those colors and their flow, astrology. But to develop in what astrology studies, you have to break free from astrology's boundaries.

The astrologers that seem more professional to me, don't hold too high value for predicting future nor helping people with their issues through astrology. It's just a tool to give a better understanding of your inner self, not a tool of divination in itself (unless you're capable of using it that way, it's rumored aquarians or those with that mindset have more potential in that, though that goes to ESP stuff). Also telling what a person is like simply from a sun sign is yes, an abhorrent thing to any self-respecting astrologist. It's a rookie mistake, and no matter what signs you have and where, your personality may be projected in a completely different manner outwards and even to yourself. The only difference people have found is, that you dont feel comfortable without the "inborn part" of yourself.
A person with a lot of signs saying he's morbid, withdrawn, brooding, deep thinker etc, may seem to others and even to himself a bright and outwards, light person and that's not just because he's reflecting a certain "what" (and by certain what I mean desire, need or way to act, or way to know your limits, way to express yourself in androgyne way) but the "how" he's reflecting it. And even if the reflection is a complete opposite from what a chart says, and even if it feels uncomfortable, it's not pretending to be something. It's showing the side of yourself that isn't your birthtalent, but an opposite or another side. The way I see it, opposite projections like that feel the most uncomfortable, especially if you've had bad memories related to people with those opposite sides being their dominant side.

And astrology is just a tool. It's a good ground to set your research on if you ask me, but not good to get locked up in it's concepts. It's better to form your own concepts and your own words for them. Astrology just happens to be my current favourite tool. No matter what position the universal energies and stars and whatever are in, we are in control of ourselves. The most clear-minded astrologers I know say that. And there's really no bad star positions where astrology is concerned. There's a lot of room for astrology to expand and change in the coming years, I think it's far from it's full potential as a science just as we are as people.

[psychic_spy]

And astrology is just a tool. It's a good ground to set your research on if you ask me, but not good to get locked up in it's concepts. It's better to form your own concepts and your own words for them. Astrology just happens to be my current favourite tool. No matter what position the universal energies and stars and whatever are in, we are in control of ourselves. The most clear-minded astrologers I know say that. And there's really no bad star positions where astrology is concerned. There's a lot of room for astrology to expand and change in the coming years, I think it's far from it's full potential as a science just as we are as people.

Mine too, it's amazing how complex it is and i spend a lot of time on it. On my own , on other's , on complete strangers's birth chart. For someone unexperienced it's very hard to grasp how the plantes, modalities, signs, houses, aspects, orbs, stars, and degrees work together to give a man a map of his own centers and a possibility to master them. It's like a lesson to be worked on for the entire life.

 And it's true, according to wise astrologers, the individual is able to overcome his astrochart but they don't usually say how hard he has to work on himself to be really free of planetary conditioning which on Earth scale it translates  very differently. 
 I also have to disagree on the fact that there are no bad star positions. Actually there are, a New Moon is very adverse to a man forming an objective view about himself, mostly if it's in the same sign and in conjunction with the Sun. Mars is usually bad in any opposition and square to the personal planets making a person quite martian , agressive , and even sociopathic in manner, Uranus bad aspected is another misfit, so is Neptune, Pluto, Saturn.
 There are good points and bad points reinforced by a multitude of astrological elements, but after a long and detailed study, one may figure out if the essence of one being can be used to satisfy it's mission or it can be wasted or dismissed on one's false personality.
   

[obyvatel]

  A couple of recent threads where astrology has been discussed
Origin Of Comets = Origin Of Astrology
Astrology

[galleon]

Has anyone here run both a tropical and a sidereal natal chart and compared them?
If so, what did you notice in their differences?

[Nienna]

Has anyone here run both a tropical and a sidereal natal chart and compared them?
If so, what did you notice in their differences?

Please read the linked threads that obyvatel provided in the post above.

[galleon]

Please read the linked threads that obyvatel provided in the post above.

Those threads do not address the actual use of the tropical and sidereal methods available to us today in a practical sense. I had posted mainly to see if anyone else had noticed the discrepancy of the two methods and found the key to their perceived problem with accuracy.

There are serious problems with Tropical astrology - by adjusting the position of the signs to be in accord with the start of earth's seasonal cycle, you are indeed cut to about 50% accuracy at best. There are problems with the Sidereal method too, unless you know the specific way to use it that eliminates the inherent problem; when you do this, you get a chart that is incredibly accurate and very useful. Every single one I have cast this way has been on the range of 90% accurate.

Sometimes, its not that the whole system is wrong or has been compromised at the root of its development. Sometimes a system has just been modified or had a piece left out which renders the rest of it so faulty that it might as well not be used. This is the case with the Tarot, and its the case with how people are taught to think. It stands to reason that Astrology would also be rendered useless for the masses.

While I appreciate psychic ability, it is not acceptable evidence for most people. In many cases it cannot be verified, and it has a higher failure rate in steady-use applications where something like Astrology would serve better.