Eckart Tolle and Adyashanti

[alkhemst]

An interesting side note is that slow speech that many "spiritual" people use. Tolle does it, so too apparently Adyashanti. Its a thing many channelers seem to do too, maybe it's a by product of a strained connection, I'm not sure but my point is, is it possible these guys are just living their lives out in constant channelling? Maybe they don't know it, or don't want to know but maybe they've  given away their own identity, to be something of worth to the outside world at some point in their lives. It's interesting, in this respect that Tolle for example had the sudden "enlightenment" when he was completely down in the dumps, a time when many people decide they just don't want to be themselves. I believe David Hawkins and Neale Donald Walsch had similiar sudden moments of "complete awareness" when they too were at devestation points. If there's no magic switch to enlightenment, then it makes sense to me that something else (or someone else) might be at work in these cases.

   Slow speech is used in hypnotic induction; the listeners' brains go into alpha state which is accompanied by a sense of relaxation. The effect is a slow-down of thinking so that the incoming message is more likely to be accepted as true without enough critical deliberation. 

Has the opposite effect with me, it comes across as unnatural and makes me feel like something is off. I went to a friend's "spiritual" gathering recently and the host spoke so slowly, and my impression and my wife's too was it was a big charade, so we left after 10 mins.

[Emmanuel]

My mind has interpreted that quote differently as I grow.  Before I knew that I could not trust my own mind, I thought it only came down to intent, since I already thought I understood myself.  As I later learned, understanding oneself is part of the life's work.  The arrogance and lack of wisdom of my youth could not possibly see how little I truly knew.

One thing I wished someone had told me earlier, and this was mentioned by Anart in another thread (http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22332.msg356608.html#msg356608), to eliminate using the word resonate when considering one's impression of something.  I came across all sorts of things that "resonated" with me that later turned out to be distractions or worse.  This is by design. Truth is melded with lies by those who wish to keep us off of our paths.  We can easily be manipulated into sensing that something rings true but the reality is, that until we clean our machines, eliminate our programs and grow in knowledge and awareness, we will never be able to see or even sense the truth without a network of individuals aligned in the quest of truth through objective feedback.

If I had a dollar for every time I felt something rang true (or resonated), well let's just say le Chateau would not need repairs for a while.

Any time you find yourself thinking a person seems honest or their message seems true, remember that there are experts who know how to craft such experiences in you and that being able to discern them from the real McCoy takes years of focused work, learning from mistakes and a network.  This forum proves there definitely is strength in numbers.

Gonzo

You read me like an open book, Gonzo. Everything You so beautifully express I do all my life. Meaning relying on my senses without doubting them and investigate them. I find myself immediately in Your words. Thanx to sharing this with me.

[Emmanuel]

Maybe I was not clear enough. In my opinion every living being has a free will to express herself. That is the reason why I said that I appreciate Yours point of view. You have that right even if Your stand is different than mine. Maybe I don't know how to express it with words, because I too believe that all people are precious and valuable and I do this in totally wrong way. If you have that feeling I sincerely apologize.
I try to find different approach. more clear and understandable.

That's OK, I didn't feel bad about what you said. It could be a language barrier, but to clarify this is how I read it:

Like everything in life we can turn and twist every word like we please. I would not take Adyashanti and his words so lightly and put him in a box with others before I investigate first and then make a opinion.  ;

I understood that to mean the reply I made about Adyashanti is distorted, subjective and not informed.

But then you said this:

However I  appreciate Your point of view alkhemst. 

So all I was getting at is that it appears to be a contradiction, that's all.

You have that right even if Your stand is different than mine.

I'm not sure about this one. While I see that people have free will, does that also mean that people have the right to express it in whatever way they want. It kind of implies for example that people have the right to kill others because that's just how they express their free will. That idea of have a "right" is something to approach with caution in my view.

Of course You know that I didn't mean that... The meaning of free will with CONSCIOUSNESS and AWARENESS is what I have in mind. That of course INCLUDE everybody's "energy field" ( I can't find better words ). However, knowing the circumstances in the world and knowing that the people are only biological machines, make this " to do right things" very serious. I never forget that again...

[Emmanuel]

I'd say the philosophy rather keeps people on the surface and promotes the avoidance of depth but as its portrayed as doing the exact opposite, there lies its danger. People want to believe that pain is not real or that it's not found outside and especially not inside of us, and so while everything's crumbling around and inside of us, we can withdraw into "the now", a happy place, to go on ignoring reality. It might sound like a harsh take on Tolle, who gives many valuable insights but it's the subjects he avoids, those same subjects that would cancel out his mass appeal, that makes his stuff on the whole "a lullaby for adults" (mentioned earlier in the thread).

An interesting side note is that slow speech that many "spiritual" people use. Tolle does it, so too apparently Adyashanti. Its a thing many channelers seem to do too, maybe it's a by product of a strained connection, I'm not sure but my point is, is it possible these guys are just living their lives out in constant channelling? Maybe they don't know it, or don't want to know but maybe they've  given away their own identity, to be something of worth to the outside world at some point in their lives. It's interesting, in this respect that Tolle for example had the sudden "enlightenment" when he was completely down in the dumps, a time when many people decide they just don't want to be themselves. I believe David Hawkins and Neale Donald Walsch had similiar sudden moments of "complete awareness" when they too were at devestation points. If there's no magic switch to enlightenment, then it makes sense to me that something else (or someone else) might be at work in these cases.

Very, very intriguing... I also listen Gangaji, Mooji and some others and all speak indeed very slow with "warm and pleasurable" voice. Something to take in consideration with the deeper thinking and investigation, though.

[Emmanuel]

An interesting side note is that slow speech that many "spiritual" people use. Tolle does it, so too apparently Adyashanti. Its a thing many channelers seem to do too, maybe it's a by product of a strained connection, I'm not sure but my point is, is it possible these guys are just living their lives out in constant channelling? Maybe they don't know it, or don't want to know but maybe they've  given away their own identity, to be something of worth to the outside world at some point in their lives. It's interesting, in this respect that Tolle for example had the sudden "enlightenment" when he was completely down in the dumps, a time when many people decide they just don't want to be themselves. I believe David Hawkins and Neale Donald Walsch had similiar sudden moments of "complete awareness" when they too were at devestation points. If there's no magic switch to enlightenment, then it makes sense to me that something else (or someone else) might be at work in these cases.

   Slow speech is used in hypnotic induction; the listeners' brains go into alpha state which is accompanied by a sense of relaxation. The effect is a slow-down of thinking so that the incoming message is more likely to be accepted as true without enough critical deliberation.

WHOA!!! It's exactly how I feel when I listen this "kind of voice"! Because a lot of years I practice martial arts and zazen I was thinking that in this chaotic world this is o.k. Incredible. Thank You very much for this info, oby wan kenobi, ups, obyvatel.

[Laura]

Like everything in life we can turn and twist every word like we please. I would not take Adyashanti and his words so lightly and put him in a box with others before I investigate first and then make a opinion.  ;

   Deliberate vagueness and a carefully cultivated aura of subtle condescending superiority is what I got from reading Adyashanti's words.

Deliberate vagueness and a carefully cultivated aura of subtle condescension is what I got from Emmanuel's words.  Funny, that, eh?

[Emmanuel]

Like everything in life we can turn and twist every word like we please. I would not take Adyashanti and his words so lightly and put him in a box with others before I investigate first and then make a opinion.  ;

   Deliberate vagueness and a carefully cultivated aura of subtle condescending superiority is what I got from reading Adyashanti's words.

Deliberate vagueness and a carefully cultivated aura of subtle condescension is what I got from Emmanuel's words.  Funny, that, eh?

Laura, is this mean that I somehow transfer the words from others and take them like there was mine ? I really want to get to the bottom of this.

[Laura]

Laura, is this mean that I somehow transfer the words from others and take them like there was mine ? I really want to get to the bottom of this.

What it means is that you are very much in the mode of critical correction which is a very dangerous path.  Have you read "Political Ponerology" and all the works on psychopathology that we recommend here on the forum?

[Emmanuel]

Laura, is this mean that I somehow transfer the words from others and take them like there was mine ? I really want to get to the bottom of this.

What it means is that you are very much in the mode of critical correction which is a very dangerous path.  Have you read "Political Ponerology" and all the works on psychopathology that we recommend here on the forum?

Not jet. I read the Wave Series ( several times ), The C's transcript, almost all books from Castaneda, I read now Ouspensky and Gurdjieff. Is a lot of stuff to digest for me because is not my native language, so I think that I  need some time. What is the best reading for me in this moment?

[Emmanuel]

I downloaded now Political Ponerology.

[ROEL]

It's interesting, in this respect that Tolle for example had the sudden "enlightenment" when he was completely down in the dumps, a time when many people decide they just don't want to be themselves.

Krishnamurti had his own sudden enlightenment experience.

I quote:

"Two unexpected events changed things forever in the life of Krishnamurti. His brother, Nitya, died of tuberculosis in1925, and in 1929 while resting in the estate of a friend in the Ojai Valley of California, Krishnamurti was attacked by feverish dreams. One day he wandered into a nearby grove and stopped to rest underneath a pepper tree. It was while he lay under the tree that indescribable feelings of unity with nature overtook him. He claimed that he could in some sense merge with the insects and the leaves on the pepper tree. He claimed to be able to see things with greater clarity than ever before in his life and that he had touched the face of the infinite."

"Krishnamurti's view of enlightenment is not that of a gradual one which increases slowly over years of hard work, because that sort of ego-related process creates its own delay and thus insures that the end is never attained. In Krishnamurti's view enlightenment comes by its own accord where and when it chooses, and there is little that we can do about it."

Krishnamurti himself said: "It must come and you can never go after it.  Do what you will."

[Gonzo]

I would expect that if anyone was delivering information that would truly lead to helping humans awaken, they would quickly experience attacks from the control system.

If they did experience such attacks and found ways to defend against them, it would be their duty to inform others that such attacks should be expected and provide information on how one should defend themselves. 

Not writing about them either indicates they never occurred, they don't care about others who might experience the same, they are too foolish to see the potential effect releasing such information might have on others (in which case they are probably too foolish to navigate the control system anyway), or they have been co-opted by the control system.

It's quite easy to tell people about the depths of human potential. Any philosopher could do that. But it's another thing to actually see the potential in the context of the control system and provide a road map and adequate defenses to break out of it.

Tolle might even have the best of intentions, but he has a small piece of the puzzle that, taken on its own merit and used alone, really doesn't help do anything but create more peaceful and content slaves, osit.

This is not to say it should be discarded. Rather, it should be considered in how it can be applied with other knowledge while also critiqued against the author's ignorance of the broader picture, willful or otherwise.

I can't say anything about Adyashanti, since I am unfamiliar with his work, other than to say it reminds me a lot of other gurus who have blended various aspects of Eastern wisdom and pseudo-esotericism.

Gonzo

[eoste]

...
Tolle might even have the best of intentions, but he has a small piece of the puzzle that, taken on its own merit and used alone, really doesn't help do anything but create more peaceful and content slaves, osit.

This is not to say it should be discarded. Rather, it should be considered in how it can be applied with other knowledge while also critiqued against the author's ignorance of the broader picture, willful or otherwise.
...
Gonzo

A very good point to ponder with... IMHO

[obyvatel]

Krishnamurti had his own sudden enlightenment experience.

   Jiddu Krishnamurti is generally regarded as a philosopher-mystic. He has been discussed in a few places in this forum. Mysticism and its relation to the Work is discussed in this thread . 

Edit: Gurdjieff was asked a similar question and this is what he had to say in ISOTM

   "But theories exist," said one of us, "that a man ought to develop the spiritual and moral side of his nature and that if he attains results in this direction there will be no obstacles on the part of the body. Is this possible or not?"

"Both yes and no," said G. "The whole point is in the 'if.' If a man attains perfection of a moral and spiritual nature without hindrance on the part of the body, the body will not interfere with further achievements. But unfortunately this never occurs because the body interferes at the first step, interferes by its automatism, its attachment to habits, and chiefly by its wrong functioning. If the development of the moral and spiritual nature without interference on the part of the body is theoretically possible, it is possible only in the case of an ideal functioning of the body. And who is able to say that his body functions ideally?

"And besides there is deception in the very words 'moral' and 'spiritual' themselves. I have often enough explained before that in speaking of machines one cannot begin with their 'morality' or their 'spirituality,' but that one must begin with their mechanicalness and the laws governing this mechanicalness.
...........
 "But is it not possible for man to be at once transposed to another stage of being by a wave of emotion?"  someone asked.

"I do not know," said G., "we are again talking in different languages. A wave of emotion is indispensable, but it cannot change moving habits; it cannot of itself make centers work rightly which all their lives have been working wrongly. To change and repair this demands separate, special, and lengthy work. Then you say; transpose a man to another level of being. But from this point of view a man does not exist for me. There is a complex mechanism consisting of a whole series of complex parts. 'A wave of emotion' 'takes place in one part but the other parts may not be affected by it at all. No miracles are possible in a machine. It is miracle enough that a machine is able to change. But you want all laws to be violated."

[alkhemst]

Krishnamurti had his own sudden enlightenment experience.

   Jiddu Krishnamurti is generally regarded as a philosopher-mystic. He has been discussed in a few places in this forum. Mysticism and its relation to the Work is discussed in this thread . 

Edit: Gurdjieff was asked a similar question and this is what he had to say in ISOTM

   "But theories exist," said one of us, "that a man ought to develop the spiritual and moral side of his nature and that if he attains results in this direction there will be no obstacles on the part of the body. Is this possible or not?"

"Both yes and no," said G. "The whole point is in the 'if.' If a man attains perfection of a moral and spiritual nature without hindrance on the part of the body, the body will not interfere with further achievements. But unfortunately this never occurs because the body interferes at the first step, interferes by its automatism, its attachment to habits, and chiefly by its wrong functioning. If the development of the moral and spiritual nature without interference on the part of the body is theoretically possible, it is possible only in the case of an ideal functioning of the body. And who is able to say that his body functions ideally?

"And besides there is deception in the very words 'moral' and 'spiritual' themselves. I have often enough explained before that in speaking of machines one cannot begin with their 'morality' or their 'spirituality,' but that one must begin with their mechanicalness and the laws governing this mechanicalness.
...........
 "But is it not possible for man to be at once transposed to another stage of being by a wave of emotion?"  someone asked.

"I do not know," said G., "we are again talking in different languages. A wave of emotion is indispensable, but it cannot change moving habits; it cannot of itself make centers work rightly which all their lives have been working wrongly. To change and repair this demands separate, special, and lengthy work. Then you say; transpose a man to another level of being. But from this point of view a man does not exist for me. There is a complex mechanism consisting of a whole series of complex parts. 'A wave of emotion' 'takes place in one part but the other parts may not be affected by it at all. No miracles are possible in a machine. It is miracle enough that a machine is able to change. But you want all laws to be violated."

That makes sense to me Obyvatel. Here, I can only add from my own perspective and give some insight into why this one's taking my attention. That similar "experience of oneness" and sudden "awareness" of all things that occurred for me some time ago, was an unnatural event from the place I was at the time (a teenager with multiple addictions who felt lost in the world). Before this event, I really wanted someone like Don Juan (from Castaneda) to take me and show it to me all. I was also heavily influenced by reading Nietzsche and the idea of madness as the inevitable road to understanding. I even remember making a "prayer" to whatever was out there to show me the way. In all honesty I was just tired of being myself and I wanted a quick fix. It took a long time to deconstruct the effects this had on me (this was close to 20 years back), while positive in some regards, it was negative to the extent that it entrenched my arrogance and hid away what was under it even further. This arrogance I still recognise in myself, and is at times I realise transparent here to many too.

Anyway overall, I believe it's valuable not just to be wary of those who talk about having the sudden spiritual transformation, and then tend act very different "overnight", go about and change their names and stuff like that, but more importantly looking at the desire in us for such things to occur.

This doesn't discount that we might go through that "dark night of the soul" and experience great personal upheavals that change us. It's more I see caution while we're going through such things, that it's easy to want to give up and give it all away, and there's plenty who are ready for the taking, if that's what we choose to do. Anyway I believe Anart said it well as a response on the other thread:

edit: part of me wants non existence. Sometimes I tell the lizzies to just kill me and get it over with. When I have fallen hard I provoke them, insult them with my mind, tell them to come and get me, to put me out of my misery.

Well, it doesn't work that way - this is your life, it's your future, it's your soul - it's up to you to do what is in you to do.  No one is going to save you and no one is going to 'put you out of your misery'.  So, perhaps it's time to grab your boot straps and start pulling up since when you're going through hell, the only thing to do is keep going (if you stop, you're stuck there).

Perhaps if I'd had more understanding of what I was going through and was willing to allow the process to occur and learn from it, I might have saved myself from years of distractions and like Timey started with the other thread with: "disregarding freewill and thinking myself a prophet" -  I've done much the same.

BTW I've wanted to contribute to that thread in case I could be of help, but I don't think I've much else to add to what is really valuable assistance. Hats off again to the level of personal support many of you provide, it's an amazing service to others.


Edit: taking my text out of quote