Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or "I, Psychopath"?

[purplehaze]

Vaknin's ploys are somewhat obvious

He has peppered the entire internet with copy after copy of his work on narcissism (much of it written in high-flown language to make the reader feel stupid compared with his intellect) so that any desperate, hurting, damaged, in PTSD victim of a pathological - many of whom turn to the internet for information & desperately needed validation - can't find information on Destructive Narcissism without having to climb over mountain ranges of his work.

Hence they become ensnared by a few references which may relate to their Ns behavior, feel "FINALLY! Someone gets it" and get drawn on the also NUMEROUS message boards run by his Canadian proxy - Femfree - and ensnared.

Until a victim gets a little farther down the roads, does more searches, talks to others and starts questioning the great Sam - at which point they are BANNED from his support boards and banished from his kingdom forevermore.

[Azur]

Vaknin's ploys are somewhat obvious

He has peppered the entire internet with copy after copy of his work on narcissism (much of it written in high-flown language to make the reader feel stupid compared with his intellect) so that any desperate, hurting, damaged, in PTSD victim of a pathological - many of whom turn to the internet for information & desperately needed validation - can't find information on Destructive Narcissism without having to climb over mountain ranges of his work.

Hence they become ensnared by a few references which may relate to their Ns behavior, feel "FINALLY! Someone gets it" and get drawn on the also NUMEROUS message boards run by his Canadian proxy - Femfree - and ensnared.

Until a victim gets a little farther down the roads, does more searches, talks to others and starts questioning the great Sam - at which point they are BANNED from his support boards and banished from his kingdom forevermore.

That's the issue, isn't it? Real scientific work is independent of the presenter: it simply is Truth, testable, verifiable, stands on it's own. It has no NEED WHATSOEVER of who is presenting it.

But that's not Vaknin's tack at all. His information, however valid, has strings.

Therein lies the taking.

[purplehaze]

But that's not Vaknin's tack at all. His information, however valid, has strings.

What's vital to remember is that the poor VICTIM may not be able to distinguish truth from lies.  Particularly after the mind -F***ing they get from a predator.  They are looking to cling to something for dear life.  What Vaknin has done is thrown out more seeming life preservers into the waters than anyone else by the sheer VOLUME of what he continues to flood the internet with.

PTSD usually takes a good 18-24 month sbefore you can get your head screwed on straight enough to see.  Even then its rough going.  By then you are dependent on the Cult of Vaknin's CLOSED SYSTEM OF LOGIC.

The cure would be to continue to provide accessable alternatives to Victims.  Knowing their intellectual facilities have been severely muted by the trauma.

[Laura]

It's really a shame that more legitimate researchers with sincere intentions don't take this guy on and expose him.  Do they think that if they ignore him, he will go away?  Don't they see the damage he is doing? I mean, what is UP with that?  

Who are the major NPD researchers with decent theories and real experience and credentials?

[purplehaze]

Goodness knows Laura - but every minute this man's BOTTOMLESS PIT of NPD word-salad stays on the net, more hapless victims are falling on it and clinging to it for dear life.  They aren't to be blamed considering the state they are in - but he is.

And the real researchers just sit by.  Sandra Brown, MA right now is about the only alternative and she has not publicly taken on Vaknin. The others? Make comments but do NOTHING about it.

It's really a shame that more legitimate researchers with sincere intentions don't take this guy on and expose him.  Do they think that if they ignore him, he will go away?  Don't they see the damage he is doing? I mean, what is UP with that?  

Who are the major NPD researchers with decent theories and real experience and credentials?

[Laura]

Maybe we could do a little research and see who is writing decent books on the topic at the clinical level, and get their names and email addresses and just ASK them if they don't think that something ought to be done about this monster?  I don't believe Vaknin is a narcissist, he's a psychopath.

[ark]

From Gorgias' "Encomium of Helen":

(1) What is becoming to a city is manpower, to a body beauty, to a soul wisdom, to an action virtue, to a speech truth, and the opposites of these are unbecoming. Man and woman and speech and deed and city and object should be honored with praise if praiseworthy and incur blame if unworthy, for it is an equal error and mistake to blame the praisable and to praise the blamable.

 (2) It is the duty of one and the same man both to speak the needful rightly and the refute the unrightfully spoken. Thus it is right to refute those who rebuke Helen, a woman about whom the testimony of inspired poets has become univocal and unanimous as has the ill omen of her name, which has become a reminder of misfortunes. For my part, by introducing some reasoning into my speech, I wish to free the accused of blame and, having reproved her detractors as prevaricators and proved the truth, to free her from their ignorance.

It thus is our duty to refute the ignorrance.

[purplehaze]

We agree.  A full blown one at that.

I don't believe Vaknin is a narcissist, he's a psychopath.

[purplehaze]

Pretty easy to know who this author is talking about:

When I began my initial research into narcissism it was borne of an almost frantic desire to learn as much as possible. I found a number of sites and read them from cover to cover. I also found various forums and leapt in to join them all.

My near obsessive zeal was often rewarded with good information, but just as frequently it yielded results that were confusing in some cases and downright traumatic in others.

The issues surrounding narcissism and abuse are often highly controversial and the information sometimes very inaccurate. For example, the internet is dominated by one man's work when it cmes to narcissism and I urge you to read his material with care. His title is Dr, but this is not a doctor of either medicine or psychology. He is a self-professed narcissist who himself will tell you :

    * That he can never heal or not act like a narcissist
    * That narcissists are pathological liars
    * That nariccissts are driven by their own highly inflated egos

He then wants you to believe that all his writings are there to help you and are accurate and true.

I am not suggesting that this invalidates everything that he says. His site gives some good insights into the mind of a narcissist. He however presumes to analyse and understand the victims as well and his theories are often way off the mark and in some cases potentially damaging.

He also goes too far with a few of his theories that he puts forward as fact, misapplying psychological concepts to indulge his own sense of grandiosity.

His is not the only site that I have found which could be potentially more damaging than helpful.

Another one was a site filled with hate, talk of revenge and very provocative ranting. While it is good to vent and to unleash the rage, to over-indulge it or over expose yourself to it will do you no favours in trying to achieve healing. We all wish at some stage that our abusers will get their just deserts. This is normal. To however make our bitterness and rage the sole or even primary focus in our lives on an ongoing basis is just self-destructive in the end.

Finally, I found various groups and forums that helped me a lot, often just by the very fact that they were there and I knew I was not alone. However, some were merely playgrounds where narcissists hung out. They projected as victims but were there for sport, to attack real victims, sometimes in the most vicious and destructive ways. I was on the receiving end of some of these in the very early days and they set me back terribly, making me question myself and second-guess everything all over again. It caused me tremendous agony.

My point is please be careful. Don't expose yourself to a forum until you are sure that it is in fact a safe place. Don't use just one resource for your information or rely on just one site or author. This includes this site as well.

Read widely and read a lot. Test the theories, check the facts and reach your own, personal conclusions.

http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/warning.html

[Laura]

* That he can never heal or not act like a narcissist
    * That narcissists are pathological liars
    * That nariccissts are driven by their own highly inflated egos

He then wants you to believe that all his writings are there to help you and are accurate and true.

That actually is the bottom line.  It's totally illogical for anyone to take a single thing that Vaknin says seriously.  And he has protected himself in advance - he has warned his readers and listeners, so none of them can say he didn't warn them!

[purplehaze]

His title is Dr, but this is not a doctor of either medicine or psychology. He is a self-professed narcissist

You should go to Amazon and check the reviews for his book.  Loads of kool-aid drinkers fooled by his "title."

[swanseagal]

I came across the 'dr''s writings on a quest to discover what was going on in my life with regards to narcissism.  It is frightening to think that people in vulnerable state will latch on to this guy and go to his forums.  There is one which is by invitation only and it seems hard to get accepted.  I went on some of the forums and found them buzzing with characters who form followings and actually practice some of the tactics they say are narcissistic.  That said I did find info and  whilst I disregarded  a lot of the self promotion he does, I have come to a greater understanding of psychopathy.  This guy worries me though.  If you are going to use a self professed narcissist to advise you it pays to regard the information with a healthy skepticism.  I mean is he a recovered narcissist or a practicing one ?

[Laura]

This guy worries me though.  If you are going to use a self professed narcissist to advise you it pays to regard the information with a healthy skepticism.  I mean is he a recovered narcissist or a practicing one ?

I think he's not even a narcissist; he's more likely to be a psychopath.

[purplehaze]

And definitely a PRACTICING Psychopath

I think he's not even a narcissist; he's more likely to be a psychopath.

[Laura]

Just stumbled on this truly bizarre post by Sam Vaknin and thought I'd point out how the guy talks out of both sides of his mouth at once:

_http://www.buzzle.com/articles/is-narcissist-legally-insane.html

Is the Narcissist Legally Insane?


Narcissists are not prone to "irresistible impulses" and dissociation (blanking out certain stressful events and actions). They more or less fully control their behavior and acts at all times.

Notice exactly what Vaknin has said above: that Narcissists are NOT prone to irresistible impulses" and that they FULLY CONTROL their acts and behavior at ALL times.

But wait, now he says exactly the OPPOSITE:

But exerting control over one's conduct requires the investment of resources, both mental and physical. Narcissists regard this as a waste of their precious time, or a humiliating chore. Lacking empathy, they don't care about other people's feelings, needs, priorities, wishes, preferences, and boundaries. As a result, narcissists are awkward, tactless, painful, taciturn, abrasive and insensitive.

The narcissist suffers from uncontrollable rage and grandiose fantasies. Most narcissists are also mildly obsessive-compulsive. Yet, all narcissists should be held accountable to the vast and overwhelming majority of their actions.

Got that?  On the one hand, they are NOT prone to irresistible impulses" and they FULLY CONTROL their acts and behavior at ALL times (according to Vaknin) , but yet, they suffer from UNCONTROLLABLE rage... their behavior is awkward, tactless, painful, taciturn, abrasive...

Say what???

Not only that, but even during their worst explosions, (that they ought not to be having if they are, in fact, totally controlled) ...

At all times, even during the worst explosive episode, the narcissist can tell right from wrong and reign in their impulses. The narcissist's impulse control is unimpaired, though he may pretend otherwise in order to terrorize, manipulate and coerce his human environment into compliance.

True, the narcissist cannot "control" his grandiose fantasies. All the same, he knows that lying and confabulating are morally wrong and can choose to refrain from doing so.

The narcissist is perfectly capable of anticipating the consequences of his actions and their influence on others. Actually, narcissists are "X-ray" machines: they are very perceptive and sensitive to the subtlest nuances.  But the narcissist does not care. For him, humans are dispensable, rechargeable, reusable. They are there to fulfill a function: to supply him with Narcissistic Supply (adoration, admiration, approval, affirmation, etc.) They do not have an existence apart from carrying out their "duties".

Still, it is far from a clear-cut case.

Some scholars note, correctly, that many narcissists have no criminal intent ("mens rea") even when they commit criminal acts ("acti rei"). The narcissist may victimise, plunder, intimidate and abuse others - but not in the cold, calculating manner of the psychopath. The narcissist hurts people offhandedly, carelessly, and absentmindedly. The narcissist is more like a force of nature or a beast of prey - dangerous but not purposeful or evil.

Actually, that describes the psychopath perfectly.  It also is very contradictory to say that the narcissist does not victimize others in a cold and calculating way.  That's exactly what he has described.  

Moreover, many narcissists don't feel responsible for their actions. They believe that they are victims of injustice, bias, prejudice, and discrimination. This is because they are shape-shifters and actors. The narcissist is not one person - but two. The True Self is as good as dead and buried. The False Self changes so often in reaction to life's circumstances that the narcissist has no sense of personal continuity.

From my book "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited":

"The narcissist's perception of his life and his existence is discontinuous. The narcissist is a walking compilation of "personalities", each with its own personal history. The narcissist does not feel that he is, in any way, related to his former "selves". He, therefore, does not understand why he has to be punished for "someone else's" actions or inaction. This "injustice" surprises, hurts, and enrages him."
         By Sam Vaknin
Published: 2/10/2007

Now remember, at the very beginning, Vaknin says

Narcissists are not prone to "irresistible impulses" and dissociation (blanking out certain stressful events and actions).

But now he says, right at the end, that they are a "walking compilation of personalities" and do not feel in any way related to the "former selves."  That's the description of dissociation!

Sounds to me like different personalities of Sam's wrote this little piece...