The Games Narcissist Play

[Bewildered]

Hmmmm... just a thought here: reading about your mother and father and what you experienced, I wonder... a woman can be turned into a complete witch if she is with a man who never supports her emotionally and everything you have described could be about such a situation with the one who is the wolf in sheep's clothing looking like the good guy.

I know.  My ex did this to me.   The situation wasn't exactly as you describe it, but enough elements were present to make me wonder what was really going on between your parents.  Who was really on first there?

That's a good question, Laura. You raise a valid point. They had 6 years worth of marriage by the time I was born; add being a military family to the mix (my father was career military, more on that shortly), and some unusual elements come into play. I honestly wish I knew where it began. At this point, they are thousands of miles away on the other side of the country, and still married (46 years) and together despite the gut-wrenching strife and dysfunction of the past. I have often wondered why they are still together.

I will say this, though: I wouldn't exactly call my father the "good guy." Troubled...quiet...possibly even depressed at times, yes. Even distant. Your observation above brings that to mind.

My father's military career might be relevant in this equation. He spent 28 years in the U.S. Army...most of it an utter mystery to me. What was he doing? All he will say (even now, in the twilight of his life he won't discuss it...he won't be around much longer, I think) is that he worked in "fixed-station communications." He was enlisted, but seemed to carry an awful lot of weight, and I recall him working mostly with officers and warrant officers. During the early 1960s, he was in Iran and Saudi Arabia...in the mid to late 60s, Thailand...a stint as an instructor at the U.S Army Signal School (I was born during that time)...in the early 1970s, Ethiopia...Site R in the late 1970s and early 1980s; if there was something my father never did, it was discuss work. Ever. The only clues I have are Site R...the connection to spooks during Vietnam...the enigma of his sudden TDY (temporary duty) to Ethiopia...and the Cosmic TS security clearance he held during our time in Europe.

He worked long hours. When he was home, he seemed to isolate himself. He and my mother fought frequently. These are my earliest memories. I wish I knew who was on first. Could my mother's narcissism have something to do with a dynamic I am unaware of? That could very well be. I just wonder...how could I find out? Both are impossible to deal with now.

[Bewildered]

From here, it can become even trickier. By this I mean seeing not only how one has been narcissistically wounded, but now how the seeds of our own narcissism has unwittingly affected others. How we ourselves can then act out narcissistically  towards others in our own lives.

Well said, truth seeker. This part: "how the seeds of our own narcissism has unwittingly affected others. How we ourselves can then act out narcissistically towards others in our own lives" sums up the work I have before me. The malignant darkness is not restricted to the wounds I received; it extends into the wounds I inflict. This is a terrible thing to see...and I must be careful, for this carries the danger of the attacks I endured in the past, sowing the seeds of narcissism in me, creating the perfect environment where I loathe myself utterly. It carries the scent of pathology.

I cannot begin to describe to you the horror of realizing that I have manifested some of the same behaviors I was the victim of as a child. This realization began slowly, first with my perception of the pattern in my life a few years ago. I kept putting myself in relationships with abusers. With the mirror held up to myself I saw the truth of my behaviors, and I can only wonder...just how much of this is my own doing? What have I done to others? The abuser here is me, and the people who have suffered are others. That is beyond wrong. It is horrifying. 

[Laura]

He worked long hours. When he was home, he seemed to isolate himself. He and my mother fought frequently. These are my earliest memories. I wish I knew who was on first. Could my mother's narcissism have something to do with a dynamic I am unaware of? That could very well be. I just wonder...how could I find out? Both are impossible to deal with now.

Your mother's "narcissism" could very well have been just her own un-validated self screaming for what she needed so desperately.  And since she couldn't scream AT your father the way she really wanted to, you got the maneuvers.

I just don't want to see anyone being unfair to a parent who is carrying a heavy burden.  Yes, it's true that the narcissistic family dynamic can be devastating to a child, but it doesn't mean there was a real, live, narcissist present. 

[anitasweetie]

Thank you, Laura for pointing this out...

Your mother's "narcissism" could very well have been just her own un-validated self screaming for what she needed so desperately.  And since she couldn't scream AT your father the way she really wanted to, you got the maneuvers.

I just don't want to see anyone being unfair to a parent who is carrying a heavy burden.  Yes, it's true that the narcissistic family dynamic can be devastating to a child, but it doesn't mean there was a real, live, narcissist present.  

This I believe is basically what happened in my own childhood family dynamic.  My Mother took really good care of us when we were little, she took pride in her home, curled her hair etc.  Before I went to school it seemed like all hell had broke loose!  As I got older my Mom and older sister would beat the crap out of me, make me do the chores, older sister would scream that she hated me...  Where was my Dad in all this... one answer "WORKAHOLIC" no one in his eyes could work enough, or do enough.  In my adult life, it took me till I was forty to see that you can't please these type of people, don't even try.  I had 3 kids a husband who said " the only thing he ever had to do was keep a roof over his family's head"  My Dad would come over every day, if I had a day off from work he would want to know why.  I told him that I was allowed a day off at least one every week. I almost put a gun to my head over trying to live my life his way.  It was'nt  too much longer  I sat down and refused to live that way anymore.  About a year later, I found the Wave Series, the changes I made in my life since then have been very unorthodox to say the least.  

Soon to get the hang of the quotes!!!


Edit = Quotes

[obyvatel]

I just don't want to see anyone being unfair to a parent who is carrying a heavy burden.  Yes, it's true that the narcissistic family dynamic can be devastating to a child, but it doesn't mean there was a real, live, narcissist present.  

    In my experience - both my own life and from observations about the lives of close friends, other family members - I see this omnipresent narcissistic dynamic but except for one possible case, I have not seen any full blown narcissists. So it seems quite possible that one generation of narcissistically wounded people can bring up the next generation infected by the same disease without the presence of a clinically certifiable narcissist. Because this disease (narcissistic wounding) is so common, it is not even considered as a disease - after all "everybody does this". Reminds me of the story of the colony of lepers who used to rub themselves against burning coals to soothe their pain but never thought that it was unnatural and painful as everybody was afflicted by the same disease.  
   Waking up to this fact is quite horrifying - specially the realization that I too am a member of this "colony of narcissistically wounded" , soothing my pain by hurting others. But this intense discomfort serves as the fuel for work on the self to get cured of this disease - osit.
    

[Laura]

Bewildered, have you read the Pressman's book "The Narcissistic Family"?

Highly recommended.

[Bewildered]

Your mother's "narcissism" could very well have been just her own un-validated self screaming for what she needed so desperately.  And since she couldn't scream AT your father the way she really wanted to, you got the maneuvers.

I just don't want to see anyone being unfair to a parent who is carrying a heavy burden.  Yes, it's true that the narcissistic family dynamic can be devastating to a child, but it doesn't mean there was a real, live, narcissist present. 

That makes sense, Laura. I have my memories from childhood...and of my parents, the only one whom I have been able to have conversations with about those times has been my father. My mother refuses to discuss anything, and I have simply decided to accept that. To this day they both continue to fight as they did so many years ago...it's a terrible thing because I'm powerless to help either one of them. No amount of intervention or mediation helps.

I decided that the thing to focus upon was recognizing certain patterns and behaviors in myself, and changing them.

I caught your question as I hit the post button (I really like that feature of the forum!):

Bewildered, have you read the Pressman's book "The Narcissistic Family"?

Highly recommended.

No, I have not. That is added to my required list...thanks! 

@obyvatel: That's a meaningful observation, particularly since, to my own horror, I discovered some of the same behaviors manifesting in myself! Not everyone who exhibits narcissistic behaviors is necessarily a true narcissist, I agree.

[Harold]

Hello All, Harold here.
This thread is heartbreaking for me personally. It is like a day in the life of Harold as a child specifically, as a young adult, and I guess still to this day. I dont avoid my family, I just dont participate in their 'games' anymore, this is not to say that things are all rosy. I am still the loser black sheep, whipping boy, but I understand the dynamic and that my family is happy to 'play'. I actually use it to my advatage as much as possible. But I find the 'influences' behind the scenes, really want me to 'play' still to this day.
I could refer and quote so much off this thread, I would not know where to start.
I will admit here that I have this fantasy, I like to indulge myself in..... it goes like this. At the big family christmas diner, with all my life long abusers around me, I would like to pose the question to my sister..."hey sis, how would you feel if I your brother, your childrens uncle, were to beat your kids, get them drunk or stoned,  and sexually abuse them?" With my parents, aunts and uncles around to hear this as that is what they did to me. She (and the others at the table)would definetly ask me to leave to never return again, Im sure of this as I am monitored around her kids as to what I say, as I might agree with one of them when they talk of vegitarianism, which is a big no no in my family. They are strick catholics too, so talking of spirituallity is a taboo too. But mom and dad secretly love to hear my ideas on god etc. Actually when I speak, its like Im not in the room sometimes. There eyes seem to wander off to the television for some reason.

I just want to say thank-you to Laura and all who have shared here on this thread, I know how difficult it is to expose our lives as the horrors they can be at times.

cheers,
Harold

[truth seeker]

Just wanted to let you know Harold, that your last couple of posts are reflecting some inner growth and opening up on your part. Nice to meet you!

Also, anytime you feel ready to, you can talk about family issues or whatever on the swamp. It's a private part of the forum that is protected from search engines as I understand it. If you're not ready for mirroring, you can just state that you need to get it off your chest. Go as slowly as you need to.

[Nienna]

First off, Harold, I agree with truth seeker.  You have definitely shown that you are actually learning about yourself and, hence, doing some growing.  Kudos!

Second, as Laura has said, The Narcissist Family by Pressman(s) is a truly remarkable book.  So are the other Narcissism Big 5 books.

I would also like to recommend, since Bewildered mentioned bad relationships, that you read Woman Who Love Psychopaths by Sandra Brown and Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood.  These books go into great detail on how we are trying to fix our childhood dysfunctional family situation by having relationships with the same types of people that reflect the behavior of the narcissistic parent during childhood.  And how to fix the situation.

Even if you are a male, you should read these books because all you have to do is turn the genders around and you have the same thing being done to men.  It is not gender specific, it just seems to happen to women more, if I understand it correctly.

The first step is understanding that it is happening to you.  Then you get the knowledge you need to start the healing inside.

[V4victim]

Thank you for your forum on narcissist, I can now say I am a victim! I have been struggling for 10 years with a N, thinking I was going crazy. If I told someone I thought my partner was 'sick in the head' and treating me bad, I was looked upon as if I was joking. No one ever believed me, he seemed to be normal to the outside world. Even been described as caring, intelligent and charming...I have so many stories to tell about living with a N, it would sound as if I had made them up or was exagerating.

I have two problems that I am facing at the moment. The first is I am going to court to fight the N. The second is I need to know WHY I STAYED WITH HIM. Can anyone shead some light please.

[Gandalf]

Hi V4victim,

Welcome to our forum. 

We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read.

You can have a look through that board to see how others have done it.

[Harold]

Just wanted to let you know Harold, that your last couple of posts are reflecting some inner growth and opening up on your part. Nice to meet you!

Also, anytime you feel ready to, you can talk about family issues or whatever on the swamp. It's a private part of the forum that is protected from search engines as I understand it. If you're not ready for mirroring, you can just state that you need to get it off your chest. Go as slowly as you need to.

First off, Harold, I agree with truth seeker.  You have definitely shown that you are actually learning about yourself and, hence, doing some growing.  Kudos!

Second, as Laura has said, The Narcissist Family by Pressman(s) is a truly remarkable book.  So are the other Narcissism Big 5 books.

I would also like to recommend, since Bewildered mentioned bad relationships, that you read Woman Who Love Psychopaths by Sandra Brown and Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood.  These books go into great detail on how we are trying to fix our childhood dysfunctional family situation by having relationships with the same types of people that reflect the behavior of the narcissistic parent during childhood.  And how to fix the situation.

Even if you are a male, you should read these books because all you have to do is turn the genders around and you have the same thing being done to men.  It is not gender specific, it just seems to happen to women more, if I understand it correctly.

The first step is understanding that it is happening to you.  Then you get the knowledge you need to start the healing inside.

Hello Everyone,

To Nienna Eulich and Truth Seeker....

Look what you guys are doing to me! Just kidding. I really have no-one to talk to except for 1 friend, and I am doing most of the talking with him as he is not a reader, and wants to learn of the 'Wave'.

I did not know that the Swamp is safe, I thought it all is safe, as Harold is not my name, and my family will never find me here, and I dont care about that.

I just posted a very revealling post... truthful etc. in health and diet. Please read it. I want to share. I just have been abused all my life, so sharing is tough, but so is Harold.

I read Laura's posting on the jerks, Vincent and so fourth, as I wanted to know why Laura moved to France. This most interesting post has me working on a posting of my own as I have a very bizzare experience similar..... please know, I am a good guy, I just keep my pain to myself.

I live by the axiom, of helping others, helps us to get out of our way and heal on our own time, organically.

Your postings were in March of this year, I just happened to stumble on them today. I was out of touch for a few months, I really wish I saw your encouraging posts earlier.

Cheers,
Harold
 

[Shijing]

I have two problems that I am facing at the moment. The first is I am going to court to fight the N. The second is I need to know WHY I STAYED WITH HIM. Can anyone shead some light please.

Hi V4victim --

Once you do a Newbies post, one of the links you will be provided will be to a recommended books section.  Part of that section includes the following:

Narcissism "Big Five"
Myth of Sanity - Martha Stout
The Narcissistic Family - Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman
Trapped in the Mirror - Elan Golomb
Unholy Hungers - Barbara E. Hort
In Sheep's Clothing - George K. Simon

If you start getting ahold of these, I think you will find a lot of answers to that question -- which is one that, unfortunately, many, many people ask.

[Heimdallr]

I have two problems that I am facing at the moment. The first is I am going to court to fight the N. The second is I need to know WHY I STAYED WITH HIM. Can anyone shead some light please.

The best place to get an answer to your question, IMO, is in Sandra Brown's two books on narcissists and the people who fall for them: How To Spot a Dangerous Man, and Women Who Love Psychopaths.  They both are excellent resources for individuals attempting to understand how they managed to fall for, and stay with, narcissistic and pathological partners.  Their is a lot to learn in both of those excellent books.