Good idea or bad idea?

mkrnhr said:

I agree anart, but TC is looking for advice or data, no judgement. He is young, and he says that he was like a hermit before. So here is a young man who all of a sudden has a lot of new friends.

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Not to speak for TC, but this is not 'all of a sudden' - he's been in the free masons for quite some time.

m said:

But it's his own life and his own Lesson from this life.

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Of course it is, mkrnhr, I never said differently. The point is that TC brought this up here, so that means he's asked for input - when one asks for input, one must not put parameters on what is and what is not comfortable to hear.

E said:

do you actually know where the raised money goes?

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_http://www.wrprovince.co.uk/

16 June 2009
£2 million - Summary of Grants approved - see News for full article

Medical Research

1. Diabetes UK - £50,000
2. Moorfields Eye Hospital - £250,000 over three years
3. Motor Neurone Disease Association - £50,000 over two years

Youth Opportunities

1. Army Cadet Force Association - £10,000
2. Barnardo’s - £45,000 over two years
3. Brathay Hall - £50,000 over two years
4. The Cricket Foundation - £15,000
5. Depaul Trust - £60,000 over two years
6. Happy Days Children’s Charity - £10,000
7. Shaftesbury Young People - £20,000

Vulnerable People

1. Alzheimer’s Society - £50,000
2. Aspire - £20,000
3. British Red Cross - £50,000
4. Calvert Trust Lake District - £50,000
5. Dementia Relief Trust (For Dementia) – £38,500
6. Disabled Living Foundation - £15,000
7. Emmaus UK - £55,000 over two years
8. Hearing Dogs for Deaf People - £15,000
9. Jennifer Trust for Spinal Muscular Atrophy - £10,000
10. Jubilee Sailing Trust - £20,000
11. Lifelites - £150,000
12. Maggie’s - £35,000
13. The National Society for Epilepsy - £15,000
14. Red Balloon Learner Centre - £25,000
15. The Relatives and Residents Association - £17,000

Religious Buildings

1. LLandaff Cathedral - £5,000
2. Norwich Cathedral - £5,000
3. St Edmunsbury Cathedral - £5,000
4. Winchester Cathedral - £5,000

Other Grants

* Hospice Services - £500,000
* Minor non-Masonic Grants - £50,000
* Air Ambulances - £192,000
* Matched Funding Scheme - £65,000

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I do think the topic has shifted from the nuts and bolts of whether this is a good idea or bad idea for obyvatel development, to the topic of the titles used for different officers in the Lodge which are heard week in week out and held by people you've known for years and have no emotional significance or veneration. Yes, there is potential for something like that to go to ones head, but think about it this way:

anart said:

why is (Mr. Smith) spending his time and energy benefiting (a theatre company who put on productions where people get called 'jesus christ superstar' or 'king henry V', or 'romeo')

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The consensus is that for anyone trying to wake up, this will all be a distraction and I can see that.

anart said:

I think it would greatly benefit TC to actually explain what it is he REALLY gets out of the masons

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I will try to give this as much serious thought as I am able, and I'll post what I can come up with.

Mkrnhr, one of the characteristics of the “spirit of this forum” have always been honesty – sometimes brutal honesty. I didn’t know that there was another thread where T.C.’s membership with the masons was discussed. I’m not being judgemental of T.C., I’m being judgemental of the masons, given that there is no shortage of literature on them. And as I also mentioned, if that literature is erroneous T.C. as an insider can fill us in a little, although I hardly think T.C. is privy to the real intentions at the heart of this society.

Forgive me T.C., but a summary of “Grants approved” does little to persuade me of this society’s ‘good intentions’. I don’t fall for their philanthropic front. The Medicins Sans Frontiers thread comes to mind (but in Jeremy F Kreuz's case it is his livelihood). Where does the rest of the money go? I was more talking of a full, independent audit, although we know the chances of that happening is as likely as the Fed getting a full, independent audit. Somehow I think £2 million is pocket change for these guys. Can you follow up with the recipients of these minor grants at least to see if they actually received it, and what it was used for? The latter – what it was used for – is of utmost importance, because these organisations have also been infiltrated and ponerized at the top, and likely have a connection to the masons.

Mkrnhr, I think T.C. can think of a myriad of ways and organisations / clubs where he can make friends and ‘re-enter’ society, without so many sinister strings attached. T.C. you don’t really have to answer my questions about the inside secret nitty-gritty, I think the secrecy is one of the things that appeals to you. It would be 'the' thing that is unacceptable for me. But are those ex-masons’ accounts all lies? Or do you consider them apostates of the ‘Craft’, and their testimonies therefore irrelevant.

T.C. said:

The consensus is that for anyone trying to wake up, this will all be a distraction and I can see that.

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Not only do I think your membership and your time invested is a distraction, I also think you (and all the others like you in the service of this society) are useful dupes and fundraisers for something you don’t know anything about. Their defectors are very outspoken, and you should maybe listen up.

Mkrnhr, this is the style and the content of the advice I will give to anyone I care for. The choice lies with T.C. though, as always.

T.C. said:

I do think the topic has shifted from the nuts and bolts of whether this is a good idea

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I think the nature of the 'society' you serve is pertinent to this discussion, and I think you know that.

TC, I have a question that I think may be relevant to the discussion: Why are you working only 24 hours per week? When I asked why you weren't making finding a job your top priority, I really meant a "full-time job".

Also, this may be an incorrect assumption on my part, but I imagine that most of the people involved in the Masons are a lot older than you, and I'm wondering whether there might not be an unhealthy dynamic there, e.g. is it the kind of environment that potentially feeds your fantasy about finding the kind of father you never had, that sort of thing. If you wanted to do volunteer work, why not look for a situation that does not involve the support of so many questionable "causes" and such a bizarre "structure", as well as the opportunity to work and interact with people closer to your own age?

Just some thoughts, for what they are worth.

mkrnhr said:

E,
TC has discussed his experience about Freemasonry in another thread.

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You meant Walter Leslie Wilmshurst; the Fulcanelli of Freemasonry? (Search results for "mason" by user "T.C." brought only this beside the current thread).

T.C.,
Have you ever looked at "inside" motivations WHY you want to belong to Free Mason?
Can they be related to some traumas/wounds/hungers "inside" of you?

I am wondering because you have mentioned in a couple of threads you have some wounds you began to see.
For examples:

T.C. said:

Because of this situation and the help you've all given, I am beginning to sense there's a huge amount of repressed emotions in me linked to being bullied.

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T.C. said:

This weekend, my father came over from Italy, and I really saw the truth about him. All the time he was here, he was violating my free will, giving me things I wasn't asking for; his decision to come over at this moment coincided with my moving house which I've had to postpone for another week. I could see that, in conversation, he just runs those 'pre-recordings' that Mouravieff talks about, and that the other person might as well not be there. I asked his advice on a few things regarding my situation, and rather than think about what I was asking and consider the facts, his advice was based on his assumptions about me and my situation. I've been following a much more healthy lifestyle and diet, but that all went out the window because he has a lot of food programmes and I didn't want to rock the boat. So I kinda betrayed my Self.

I now feel drained and tired, and after enjoying a feeling good health for the past few weeks, I now feel grubby and unhealthy; I feel like I "need to take a shower".

I can see how my programmes allowed so much to happen that could have been avoided. A lack of boundaries, fear of upsetting someone else by simply caring about myself. Fear of making judgements, too; it has highlighted for me that I NEED to judge between things as "good for me" and "bad for me", and see other peoples reactions to my choices, as free will choices on their part.

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(I am speculating this current thread might be made from the same "lack of boundaries" issue inside of you and you might be simply asking how you can work with it).

Also have you ever looked around the people in Free Mason organization and investigate closely HOW each individual Works with their traumas/wounds/hungers?
From my past "lessons", I now do NOT want to underestimate "pathological factors" any more in any organizations/movements (include this Forum).
And as far as I know this Forum (therefore can be assumed in SOTT/QFS) is the only place where people are aware of "pathological factors" as knowledge and I can see some traces of members Working on themselves on their "pathological factors".

If each individual does not have such knowledge and each individual does not Work on their "pathological factors" then I would NOT participate it at this point of time as Cs clearly stated as the following on Session 30 May 2009.

Q: (L) In other words, there's no hope for our planet or our species if normal human beings do not come together and get over these varied pathological belief systems and religions and "your truth" and "my truth" and all that sort of thing?

A: Yes. All of that was created and spread by pathological types under the influence of their hyperdimensional masters for the purpose of turning this planet into a "hell on earth" with them as the masters. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. What is needed is for many people to begin to make direct connections with their higher centers. This has been done via the "work" up to now, but there are other methods to accelerate the process and obtain the needed assistance.

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Hi T.C.,

Ever since you have mentioned, a ways back ago, that you were in the masons, I have been wondering why.

Now you are questioning if moving up would be good or bad.

Everybody is different, but don't these words raise any red flags to you:

hierarchical (which I know you would encounter just about everywhere, but still it's advertised in this group

Master

Worshipful Master

ritual

I mean, these are all terms that are exact opposites of what most of us, here in this forum, are trying to break free from.

Sure they would more than likely give you valuable experience in learning how to "do 3D stuff", but, maybe it's just me, but belonging to an organization associated with the types of things that the masons have been known for seems counterproductive to accomplishing the goals of this group.

It would seem to me that you could learn the same 3D concepts by just organizing your life in everyday conditions. Keeping things in your living space clean, paying bills, having to organize your daily schedule, etc.

No, this isn't as lofty sounding and exciting as being a member of the masons, but, I guess this is where you need to ask yourself what your aim is.

And could you explain to me this item you mentioned:

"...I'm good in the Lodge as far as ritual is concerned."

I don't know, T.C., as I said, maybe it's just me, but being a Worshipful Master just makes my skin crawl.

Is there no way that you could put the energy you would need for this position in the masons to use doing something for Sott or the Chateau group? You would need to be able to organize yourself and push yourself in the doing of something along these lines and it would be helping you to learn more about your machine and work on yourself.

And, yes, I know that I am putting a lot of emphasis on the titles of positions here, but names, whether you think about them consciously or not, still show the universe what you are leaning towards, or so I think. And, I know, I could be wrong about all of this, but this is how it looks to me at this point.

T.C. said:

The problem is, time is short.

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Indeed. T.C., for those who are serious about the Work, there may not be time for these games, or any other activity not associated with releasing emotional blockages and fusing a singular, unified "I". OSIT

T.C. said:

From a socio-culturally indoctrinated point of view, Masonry IS 'productive'.

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In 'An Essay on Man,' Ernst Cassirer writes:

Ernst Cassirer] "Though myth is fictitious said:

Social events, for all the benefits one might get from taking part in them, seem to just boil down to 'feeding frenzies'.

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Networking is/can be important, but if these 'feeding frenzies' are not controllable, why bother with them? With all the people who are suffering and dying from innumerable causes and being 'victimized' by the effects of increasing psychopathology, one could spend all available time just feeding the hungry, distributing basic needs to the homeless, putting information 'out there' for people who are seeking a single thread of sanity in an insane world - DOings that might actually benefit someone. OSIT

Now that I have read the other thread about T.C.'s involvement with freemasonry, I see that the topic has been well covered.

Just for the sake of relevance, here's all the core texts on freemasonry in the public domain:

_http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/index.htm

From my book "The Element Encyclopedia of Secret Societies" - I didn't know there were quite so many secret societies, it's a thick book - I'm even more confused about their purpose. What is evident, is that the society has gone through some transformations through the centuries, and that their global reach today is enormous (a couple of thousand lodges globally except in a few Muslim countries and in China, who forbids it by law).

I just want to answer a couple of quick questions now, and cover everything else at a later date. I'm thinking about this all and I'm really grateful for everyone's help because I'm starting to see this whole thing in a different light.

PepperFritz said:

TC, I have a question that I think may be relevant to the discussion: Why are you working only 24 hours per week? When I asked why you weren't making finding a job your top priority, I really meant a "full-time job".

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My first task after I decided to change my situation was to find a part time job so that I could work and care at the same time. When I applied for this pharmacy job, it was for 12 hours a week. When I stopped the caring, I asked if there was any possibility of more hours and my boss said she could give me 24. I regularly do extra shifts. Last week I did an extra 7.5 hours, and with the Swine Flu we've been extremely busy and I'm working full time next week. The money I earn more than covers my outgoings at this point.

Nienna Eluch said:

And could you explain to me this item you mentioned:

"...I'm good in the Lodge as far as ritual is concerned."

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All it means is that I have a good rote memory. It's like an actor saying, "I can learn long monologues in a short space of time". As I mentioned in the other thread, what masons call ritual is the same as learning a part in a play.

T.C. said:

All it means is that I have a good rote memory. It's like an actor saying, "I can learn long monologues in a short space of time". As I mentioned in the other thread, what masons call ritual is the same as learning a part in a play.

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I think that's a little like playing with fire. You can certainly fool yourself into thinking you are just playing the role. By the sound of what you have written, it seems like you are pretty confident in your ability to keep the role separate from the real you. My feeling is you are a little too confident. I would say it's more than just "I have a good rote memory". On the other hand, if you are just "faking it", then the question becomes why are you even doing it? That's where the rubber hits the road here.

T.C. said:

[…]But I'm relatively young (25), and I'm a very disorganised person. I don't have many life skills; I'm not confident I could run the lodge in an effective way.

The other side of the coin is the idea that this may be 'good for me', as in, I might learn a lot of 3rd D stuff. Having to find a job and a place to live, I've been more focused on just trying to get 3rd D right and doing this would help in that respect.

[…]I do think the topic has shifted from the nuts and bolts of whether this is a good idea or bad idea for obyvatel development, to the topic of the titles used for different officers in the Lodge which are heard week in week out and held by people you've known for years and have no emotional significance or veneration. Yes, there is potential for something like that to go to ones head,

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My youngest son joined a fraternal charity organization at the age of 25. I know a little of the organization of power on this planet from personal experience and the study of history, economics, and politics. Hence, I researched the organization. It has elite and exploitive goals at the highest levels. The lower levels are primarily recruiting, charity, and 3D networking on a local level. The higher levels are concerned with power in the earthly kingdom.

I refrained from comment on this information for several years. Eventually, I discussed my knowledge of this organization with my son. He reacted defensively and I must say articulately on the wide range of 3D experience and responsibility he was gaining. Yes, these organizations can aid your development and success as a householder. Gurdjieff says a man or woman who learns and develops as a householder in caring for the 3D world is material for the Kingdom of Heaven. It seems to me nearly all 3D organizations from charities, corporations, government bureaucracies, mental health and legal professions, NGO’s, think tanks, academia, religion, etc. are ponerized to a greater or lesser extent. Therefore, I must ask where a young man is to gain experience and learn the lessons of 3D?

My son and I discussed his participation in this skillfully ponerized organization a few months ago. He confirms my original information and affirms the obvious benefits in the 3D world. It seems to me, that a man must have a life before he can give it up for another life. He has kept his knowledge and personal struggle with the temptations of 3D, secret from his fellows in this group. The ultimate decision to pursue a esoteric aim will be his alone. His questions of me as his father, lean to discussing his inner conflicts and ethical considerations. The STS world is a hard place and we only have a few short years to learn our lessons.

T.C. you have the gift of much knowledge and many perspectives on this thread.
Perhaps, you will learn a new understanding of the Temptation of Christ.

I would like to apologise to E. My intervention was rude and out of purpose. I totally misunderstood your post.

TC, I think that you are in a reflective period and maybe the different questions will help you to take a decision that will benefit you and what you want for you.
There is a saying in french that says "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Freemasonry is not a secret society, secret societies are by definition secret. You can enjoy being in a club but ask yourself if it benefits you really? There is no organization in the world that will tell you "hey, come in, we are an STS spiritual society", but if you look at the constriction, the hierarchy and other signs you will see what machine it is. Times are accelerating. See, strange weather, Jupiter and Venus hit by something in one week, rampant Fascism's all over the world, a coming worldwide famine and economic collapse, wars, increased UFO activity... Not that you might take a decision tonight, but it's a parameter. You have all the clues IMHO to help in your decision.
Maybe a good reference about it is "Darkness over Tibet" by lllion could give an insight (or you can read Laura's review to this book).
Another reference maybe is in The Wave, though I don't remember in which part, were Laura describes the energy flow in churches. It can be extrapolated to mosques, synagogues, temples, lodges...
Now you chose doing the Work, and start the meditative breathing program, do you think that kind of energy transfer will benefit you now?

100% mkrnhr, we all have our buttons pushed from time to time. :)

No hard feelings ;)

Take care.

TC, if you agree that the network, free-will principles you find here are in opposition to hierarchical secret-societies, then what is happening to you is simple, you are sitting on the fence between two big things. At some point you will want to choose one or the other, and, as you pointed out, time is running out. It's not usually healthy to stay on the fence much past the time a person realizes they are on the fence.

Another way of looking at it is that you have one foot on one train and the other foot on another train. If the tracks diverge you are in trouble. Maybe up to a point your two trains were close enough together, but for how long?

Mr. Premise said:

TC, if you agree that the network, free-will principles you find here are in opposition to hierarchical secret-societies, then what is happening to you is simple, you are sitting on the fence between two big things. At some point you will want to choose one or the other, and, as you pointed out, time is running out. It's not usually healthy to stay on the fence much past the time a person realizes they are on the fence.

Another way of looking at it is that you have one foot on one train and the other foot on another train. If the tracks diverge you are in trouble. Maybe up to a point your two trains were close enough together, but for how long?

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T.C., I was opening the pdf of ISTOM that I used for my last post in other thread.
The next paragraph was actually about 'finding oneself between two stools'!
[quote author=Ouspensky - In Search of the Miraculous p372-3]
When a man comes to the conclusion that he cannot, and does not desire, to live any longer in the way he has lived till then; when he really sees everything that his life is made up of and decides to work, he must be truthful with himself in order not to fall into a still worse position. Because there is nothing worse than to begin work on oneself and then leave it and find oneself between two stools; it is much better not to begin. And in order not to begin in vain or risk being deceived on one's own account a man should test his decision many times. And principally he must know how far he is willing to go, what he is willing to sacrifice. There is nothing more easy to say than everything. A man can never sacrifice everything and this can never be required of him. But he must define exactly what he is willing to sacrifice and not bargain about it afterwards. Or it will be the same with him as with the wolf in the Armenian fairy tale.
[/quote]

And also this Armenian fairy tale might be inspiring:
[quote author=Ouspensky - In Search of the Miraculous (continued) p373]
Do you know the Armenian fairy tale of the wolf and the sheep?

Once there lived a wolf who slaughtered a great many sheep and reduced many people to tears.
At length, I do not know why, he suddenly felt qualms of conscience and began to repent his life; so he decided to reform and to slaughter no more sheep.
In order to do this seriously he went to a priest and asked him to hold a thanksgiving service.
The priest began the service and the wolf stood weeping and praying in the church.
The service was long. The wolf had slaughtered many of the priest's sheep, therefore the priest prayed earnestly that the wolf would indeed reform. Suddenly the wolf looked through a window and saw that sheep were being driven home. He began to fidget but the priest went on and on without end.
At last the wolf could contain himself no longer and he shouted:
'Finish it, priest! Or all the sheep will be driven home and I shall be left without supper!'

This is a very good fairy tale because it describes man very well. He is ready to sacrifice everything, but after all today's dinner is a different matter.
A man always wishes to begin with something big. But this is impossible; there can be no choice, we must begin with the things of today.
[/quote]